Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Please give me some sources for that. I keep hearing that but have never seen it. I'm not saying you're wrong or lying but some proof for my own education would be appreciated.

Honestly, wish I could. This stuff is not so well archived and it's very useful when having these discussions. I know I read it and that's about all because it wasn't recent. I can't even recall if it was in response to another thread about raids or some sort of reddit comment. I just don't have it. Maybe someone else can provide that link. 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Honestly, wish I could. This stuff is not so well archived and it's very useful when having these discussions. I know I read it and that's about all because it wasn't recent. I can't even recall if it was in response to another thread about raids or some sort of reddit comment. I just don't have it. Maybe someone else can provide that link. 

That would be awesome because I have a hard time seeing them saying that. But I keep hearing it so I can't tell if that was just a rumor or a misunderstanding or something. I'd need to see exact phrasing etc.

[Vayne.8563]

6 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Please give me some sources for that. I keep hearing that but have never seen it. I'm not saying you're wrong or lying but some proof for my own education would be appreciated.

 

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The game is skill split between PVE , PVP, and WVW. Templates are split between PVE, PVP, and WVW.

Raids being "non standard PVE" is an artificial construct made by players like you. Fractals are just as much instanced PVE and so are dungeons and strikes. Why are people not complaining about ad infinitum, if anything it is more gated by AR (an actual hard gate unless you get someone to open scale 95) than raids ever are/were or will be.

P.S. also if you do PVP you basically should have gotten legendary armor from there instead of complaining and waiting on Arenanet to make a new avenue for an existing mode because it may never happen

If raids were just standard PVE they wouldn't need their own category in LFG. They're a category of PvE that didn't exist at launch and got added.  People can PvE without doing dungeons or fractals too. You can say I'm making an arbitrary distinction but I assure you I'm not.  PvE  that is instanced content for 10 people is a specific type of PvE.  That it's still PVE means less than nothing. 

 

Mike Obrien said that 90% of the playerbase does a lot of PvE in an interview with a site.  That includes raiders. But I guarantee you 90% of the playerbase doesn't raid.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 Nope. the game changed to add something I don't like. I have every right to say I don't like it.  Not even sure what this discussion is about. Are you suggesting the forums aren't at least partly about stating our preferences?

Nope. That's personal preference.

[Infusion.7149]

Obtena is likely distorting the words used. Arenanet never said too low to be making raids. The actual statement was the player uptake was extremely low, which means two things : the pacing of releases must be lowered from original targets of twice a year and there must be a different way to approach the instances (see strikes which aren't chained together).

It's more that what's left of raid team moved to living world, so it is more likely that CM strikes will be the followup to raids, which solves the "we missed the story" part of the playerbase that doesn't want to do raids as well as "how do we learn this if you need KP on LFG to not be a burden, need to skip 2 bosses to practice end boss, and don't want to join communities". That's why strike CMs if implemented right are a step in the right direction even if hardcore raiders sometimes believe otherwise. If you think differently, I want to see you grab 10 random players you don't know (which what people do for fractals daily) and do Forging Steel with all CMs on.

I posted something of an overview over on
 

Quote

 

https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring
Strike missions are a way for us to look back and go, ‘Okay, we have the group that raids, and we have a group that says raids are either stigmatised, too difficult, there’s jerks in there who are elitist.’ There’s all these things, and we’d say, ‘No, no, no, we can show you a path to get to this content.’ We can show you the way that you can get better – that you can experience things that you didn’t necessarily think possible either because of preconceptions, or because of lack of time, availability, those types of things.

See also
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/67131-a-message-from-andrew-gray/

• Quote

   

  • Raids are a trickier beast. They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract. We gathered data to determine why, and the most common answer was that there is a giant leap in difficulty between raids and other endgame content, and there isn't anything to help players work their way up.
  • Our intention was for Strike Missions to be that intermediary step into 10-person content. As we've mentioned before and you've likely noticed, strike missions are getting harder. Once a full suite of strike missions is complete there should be a graceful ramp up to the existing raid content rather than the imposing leap that previously existed, and our hope is once that ramp is in place, the number of players participating in raids will go up. In addition to that, we're striving to make improvements to Strike Missions themselves to make grouping easier, and to improve the rewards. We hope this will help introduce more people to 10-person content, which will in turn increase the number of people interested in Raids.

   

and
https://www.pcgamesn.com/mmo-raids
“The core players of the game had spent most of their time in a five-player environments through [in-game content like] Dungeons and Fractals, and we wanted to ensure that the raid experience was uniquely different with a larger group size,” she says. “That definitely worked, but it came with the disadvantage that players suddenly needed to add five more players to their core Fractal group if they wanted to raid. It was an added challenge to players that for some created a barrier to entry.”

 

 

13 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

That would be awesome because I have a hard time seeing them saying that. But I keep hearing it so I can't tell if that was just a rumor or a misunderstanding or something. I'd need to see exact phrasing etc.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zalavaaris.5329]

5 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 

If raids were just standard PVE they wouldn't need their own category in LFG.

That's a terrible argument. LFG has it's own section for world bosses, living world, fractals, strikes, etc. etc. By the same argument world bosses aren't standard PVE either.

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

That's a terrible argument. LFG has it's own section for world bosses, living world, fractals, strikes, etc. etc. By the same argument world bosses aren't standard PVE either.

But anyone not intentionally trying to be disingenuous would acknowledge raids are in their own special category of PvE. IF they weren't they wouldn't have had to be been added as a special feature of an expansion. And they wouldn't be abandoned because more people would be doing them.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But anyone not intentionally trying to be disingenuous would acknowledge raids are in their own special category of PvE. IF they weren't they wouldn't have had to be been added as a special feature of an expansion. And they wouldn't be abandoned because more people would be doing them.

Not agreeing doesn't make me intentionally disingenuous. You just don't like what I'm saying, it doesn't mean I'm TRYING to mislead. You made a terrible argument and I pointed it out. Now you're trying to back out and fire back at me even though you're WRONG.

[Vayne.8563]

3 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Not agreeing doesn't make me intentionally disingenuous. You just don't like what I'm saying, it doesn't mean I'm TRYING to mislead. You made a terrible argument and I pointed it out. Now you're trying to back out and fire back at me even though you're WRONG.

Sure, but even saying raids aren't in their own special category of PvE is just not worth having a discussion over. I'm typing fast between helping guildies in Siren's Landing. It's a pointless argument.  If you really want to know, just make a poll with the options Raids are "normal" PvE. Raids are a special category of PvE and see how many people think they're just PvE.

 

Edit: For that matter, WvW and SPvP are both just PvP. No one would deny  that. But in this game we call SPvP PvP. We don't usually refer to WvW as PvP. It's perfectly possible to love WvW and hate SPvP even though they're both PvP.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

29 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 Nope. the game changed to add something I don't like. I have every right to say I don't like it.  Not even sure what this discussion is about. Are you suggesting the forums aren't at least partly about stating our preferences?

You have every right to say you don't like it.  You have the right to an opinion that this somehow gates you.  But you also have to realize that your personal preference != gating in any sense outside of personal.

[Vayne.8563]

3 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

You have every right to say you don't like it.  You have the right to an opinion that this somehow gates you.  But you also have to realize that your personal preference != gating in any sense outside of personal.

It's gated to people who don't want to or like to do raids.  It's not a hard gate, but everything is perspective. It's gated to me and I'd wager more people feel it's gated than don't.  People don't buy or support things based on logic. They support and buy things based on feelings. If you feel the game is for you, or supporting what you like it becomes your game. Raids made this less my game. 

You can argue that, but you'd be in a pretty big minority.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

Just now, Vayne.8563 said:

It's gated to people who don't want to or like to do raids.  It's not a hard gate, but everything is perspective. It's gated to me and I'd wager more people feel it's gated than don't.  People don't buy or support things based on logic. They support and buy things based on feelings. If you feel the game is for you, or supporting what you like it becomes your game. Raids made this less my game. 

You can argue that, but you'd be in a pretty big minority.

It's gated no one. Players may have, but the raids themselves are open to those who are willing to start their own groups be it with guilds or friends.  One or both of those you should have by the time you're interested in doing any content.

I like how hard you're trying to push that your personal preference has caused  ANet to gate you from content by developing content you don't like.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

After reading both of those statements by anet, neither say they are discontinuing raids. They said it's a challenge to make stuff for such a small audience. They then mention gathering data to figure out why. That's them deliberately saying that they want to bring more people into raids. They also mention using strikes as a way to get more people into raiding. That doesn't sound like they are DONE with raids. Just that they are challenged to bring more people in. I knew that message was going to be taken out of context so I had to see it for myself. 

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

It's gated no one. Players may have, but the raids themselves are open to those who are willing to start their own groups be it with guilds or friends.  One or both of those you should have by the time you're interested in doing any content.

I like how hard you're trying to push that your personal preference has caused  ANet to gate you from content by developing content you don't like.

Well, you can believe and think what you want, and that's fine. But I'm bowing out of this conversation. What's true to me is true to me, no matter how many times you say it's not. So feel free to get the last word. My personal cause isn't just me. The resistence to raids in Guild Wars 2 is legendary (pun intended). The people who don't like it are legion.

 

And there aren't enough of you left to keep making raids. That should tell you something. Anyway I'm out.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Vayne.8563 said:

Well, you can believe and think what you want, and that's fine. But I'm bowing out of this conversation. What's true to me is true to me, no matter how many times you say it's not. So feel free to get the last word. My personal cause isn't just me. The resistence to raids in Guild Wars 2 is legendary (pun intended). The people who don't like it are legion.

 

And there aren't enough of you left to keep making raids. That should tell you something. Anyway I'm out.

That's the cringiest kitten thing I've ever heard in my life. And you know what's true to me? You need to raid for envoy armor. Keep following your "truth". I'm sure you'll get exactly what you want.

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

That's the cringiest kitten thing I've ever heard in my life. And you know what's true to me? You need to raid for envoy armor. Keep following your "truth". I'm sure you'll get exactly what you want.

I'm sure I will too mate.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm sure I will too mate.

Best of luck to you. I'll have quit this game long before that happens.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Well, you can believe and think what you want, and that's fine. But I'm bowing out of this conversation. What's true to me is true to me, no matter how many times you say it's not. So feel free to get the last word. My personal cause isn't just me. The resistence to raids in Guild Wars 2 is legendary (pun intended). The people who don't like it are legion.

 

And there aren't enough of you left to keep making raids. That should tell you something. Anyway I'm out.

Ah so you're one of those people that goes by 'feelings' rather than facts.  It's okay to be wrong, just don't consider that your own opinions on content are anything but that.

Also they're making strikes and CM strikes for people like you and I, which are basically raids with one boss, so your argument is pretty flat.  Cya.

[Vayne.8563]

8 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Best of luck to you. I'll have quit this game long before that happens.

Will you quit if they never make another raid?

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Vayne.8563 said:

Will you quit if they never make another raid?

Yea, I don't really like running around feeding bunnies and picking flowers. I like my games to have at least something difficult to do. Hopefully they add something difficult as the raids are too easy as it is.

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Yea, I don't really like running around feeding bunnies and picking flowers. I like my games to have at least something difficult to do. Hopefully they add something difficult as the raids are too easy as it is.

 I do hope the new Strike challenge modes work for you then.

 

On the topic of bunnies, doing Dragonstand isn't killing bunnies. Just saying. This is the kind of attitude some raiders have that makes the rest of the PvE community less sympathetic to them.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

Just now, Vayne.8563 said:

 I do hope the new Strike challenge modes work for you then.

 

On the topic of bunnies, doing Dragonstand isn't killing bunnies. Just saying. This is the kind of attitude some raiders have that makes the rest of the PvE community less sympathetic to them.

Dragonstand?..... is that your challenging content? Where the most difficult part is keeping the smooth brains from CCing constantly? Come on man......

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Dragonstand?..... is that your challenging content? Where the most difficult part is keeping the smooth brains from CCing constantly? Come on man......

I'm not saying it's challenging content. I am saying it's not picking flowers or killing bunnies. And putting all PvE into that category because you personally want challenging content is not really all that nice.

 

I have five people in my guild over 70. Pretty sure they all find Dragonstand challenging enough. Different people have different levels of what they find challenging. and it's good that you're good at games and you're challenged by something harder. But some people are playing on potatos, or live in foreign countries with bad internet, or have old computer, or just old hands. So yes, some people find Dragon Stand challenging. If you don't, and it's easy for you, you should be happy you're so skilled, rather than looking down on people who don't.

 

I'll be 60 on my next birthday. I have arthritis and bursitis in my neck and shoulder.  I'm sure the aging gaming population has people who think all different things are difficult. And it's okay that you find raids the only challenging thing in the game.

But I'm sure I've read posts from people who find some story instances difficult.  And not everyone plays for difficulty. That's your gig and that's fine. Some people play to relax after a day of work. Or play for fun and don't find really difficult stuff fun. Some people log in to kill some stuff after work.

There's nothing wrong with any of it.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

11 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

 I do hope the new Strike challenge modes work for you then.

 

On the topic of bunnies, doing Dragonstand isn't killing bunnies. Just saying. This is the kind of attitude some raiders have that makes the rest of the PvE community less sympathetic to them.

People rag on the open world, because, when you put a full squad of people who consistently do the endgame (Note, not just raids, but fractals and such) so they know their classes and have rotations down and pit them against a sea of people who only do open world content (The generalized term is casuals, these people  don't do raids, fractals, dungeons, or any instanced content), the difference is night and day.  The level of  skills and situational awareness you develop playing in fractals and in raids sets you up to slaughter almost every encounter in the open world while the casual squad would  struggle to pass basic damage checks and sometimes even just do mechanics.

[Vayne.8563]

Just now, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

People rag on the open world, because, when you put a full squad of people who consistently do the endgame (Note, not just raids, but fractals and such) so they know their classes and have rotations down and pit them against a sea of people who only do open world content (The generalized term is casuals, these people  don't do raids, fractals, dungeons, or any instanced content), the difference is night and day.  The level of  skills and situational awareness you develop playing in fractals and in raids sets you up to slaughter almost every encounter in the open world while the casual squad would  struggle to pass basic damage checks and sometimes even just do mechanics.

I agree with you. The difference is night and day. Anyone can see it.

 

And yet, I guarantee you those people are the ones that keep this game going. They're the ones that buy the oufits and skins in the gem store or black lion keys that keep the lights on at Anet.  So yeah they don't have the skillsets as raiders. You should be grateful that they're keeping the game going, because there aren't enough raiders to keep it going.