Weh No Su

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:

no, we the players released joko, to learn how to traverse the sulfurous wastes.

offcourse this was to stop varesh and abaddon, but we the player released joko and then did not put him back because 'we made a promise not to do that if he told us how to traverse the sulfur'

Nah, Joko was able to break out of the prison himself. Players just happened to be present when he did so. Joko broke out of the prison because Abaddon's actions via Varesh and Margonites weakened the barriers of reality which indirectly weakened Joko's prison. Joko merely took advantage of this.

 

The PC kittened up by letting Joko run free.

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

On 8/16/2021 at 4:18 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Nah, Joko was able to break out of the prison himself. Players just happened to be present when he did so. Joko broke out of the prison because Abaddon's actions via Varesh and Margonites weakened the barriers of reality which indirectly weakened Joko's prison. Joko merely took advantage of this.

 

The PC kittened up by letting Joko run free.

are you sure, wasnt the point of freeing joko because we needed to talk to him about the sulfur. it would be a truly extreme coincedence that joko frees himself the moment we examine the monument because we need him. the mission really makes it seem that we the players freed him

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

just red the text greyhawk send, it sounds like a redcon, unless us touching the monument was the final straw to release him, but i do have to admit i cannot find any dialogue in gw1 that tlaks about us freeing jok or anyone complaining that we did.

[Danikat.8537]

I remember it as Joko was already free and nearby when you came to investigate his prison. But the player character and their friends still helped instigate the problem because there's several quests following that where you help Joko reclaim the Bone Palace and regain control of the awakened in the Desolation in return for his help crossing the Sulfurous Wastes.

 

We may not have caused the problem but we certainly didn't do anything to stop it and if anything helped speed up his conquest of Vabbi.

[Trejgon.9367]

The way I remember it we are told to go there and investigate, kormir get's sucked up into realm of torment while we are still en route and when we get there joko pops up from the ground and starts running.

 

So as alot of people in here said - we didn't release him, our "wrongdoing" was assisting him to reclaim rule over his domains for knowledge how to traverse desolation - but hey alternative was a merger between real of torment and all of tyria so it's not like there was a "good decision" to be made there. (And after abaddon is dealt with it is not like sunspears have any means to do anithing about joko in his bone palace, up until he redirects the river at which point it is tad to late to do anything)

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

The way I remember it we are told to go there and investigate, kormir get's sucked up into realm of torment while we are still en route and when we get there joko pops up from the ground and starts running.

 

So as alot of people in here said - we didn't release him, our "wrongdoing" was assisting him to reclaim rule over his domains for knowledge how to traverse desolation - but hey alternative was a merger between real of torment and all of tyria so it's not like there was a "good decision" to be made there. (And after abaddon is dealt with it is not like sunspears have any means to do anithing about joko in his bone palace, up until he redirects the river at which point it is tad to late to do anything)

It's implied that they possibly did - in Koss's time, Koss wanted to take Joko out, but the leadership at the time decided not to. It's unclear who made that call. Koss and his followers wasn't able to take Joko out themselves, but it's possible that with the knowledge of the Junundu, a credible assault could have been made.

[Trejgon.9367]

17 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's implied that they possibly did - in Koss's time, Koss wanted to take Joko out, but the leadership at the time decided not to. It's unclear who made that call. Koss and his followers wasn't able to take Joko out themselves, but it's possible that with the knowledge of the Junundu, a credible assault could have been made.

 

Koss believed that it could be done, and against spearmarshal took people to try and failed.

Here is a thing, junundu or not, Joko at this point has his undead armies back and is fortified inside his bone palace - it would take alot of manpower to try to break it, and remember that each soldier fallen, means potential of another soldier to enemy army (not to mention Joko's ability to re-awaken his awakened), so we are looking here at long bloody campaign with alot of care put to make sure that dead stays dead. Sunspears pre-gandara maybe could have been able to put up such campaign, but after nightfall the order is in shambles, and they have nowhere near enought manpower to think of taking any serious actions. Which would be why Spearmarshal (probably Tahlkora at that point) decided to refuse Koss's request.

[draxynnic.3719]

52 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

Koss believed that it could be done, and against spearmarshal took people to try and failed.

Here is a thing, junundu or not, Joko at this point has his undead armies back and is fortified inside his bone palace - it would take alot of manpower to try to break it, and remember that each soldier fallen, means potential of another soldier to enemy army (not to mention Joko's ability to re-awaken his awakened), so we are looking here at long bloody campaign with alot of care put to make sure that dead stays dead. Sunspears pre-gandara maybe could have been able to put up such campaign, but after nightfall the order is in shambles, and they have nowhere near enought manpower to think of taking any serious actions. Which would be why Spearmarshal (probably Tahlkora at that point) decided to refuse Koss's request.

We're dealing with the realm of might-have-beens here, but the Sunspears probably got a big influx of recruits post-Nightfall after liberating Kourna and Vabbi. Given that Koss believed that he had a chance (and keeping in mind that Koss knew how to tame junundu), then there's really two possibilities here - either Koss grossly overestimated his chances (well, it IS Koss) or there genuinely would have been a chance if the Sunspears as a whole had gone for it.

 

I get the impression, though, that the Spearmarshal at the time didn't believe Joko was a threat. He or she probably accepted Joko's assurances that he had learned his lesson about imposing his will on the rest of Elona, and believed in any case that Joko couldn't catch Vabbi by surprise again now that the route he used to do so was known... until, that is, he blindsided people by diverting the Elon.

[Trejgon.9367]

32 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Koss grossly overestimated his chance

 

if there is one thing Koss was consistent at in GW:N it was Koss overestimating his abilities xD

 

34 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

We're dealing with the realm of might-have-beens here, but the Sunspears probably got a big influx of recruits post-Nightfall after liberating Kourna and Vabbi.

 

Possibly, but between getting influx of recruits and training them into valuable army there are some years in between all while still having to clean up rest of the mess Varehs has left in her wake.

 

35 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I get the impression, though, that the Spearmarshal at the time didn't believe Joko was a threat.

 

I would say Joko at this point was easy to forget about - I mean some lich beyond desolation in his bone palace, all while you have a number of problems in you own backyard to clean up. Also I would imagine alot of people would be not much keen on sunspears initiating another war just after that siege of gandara that has resulted with alot of demonic stuff being unleashed upon people.

 

That being said if the same dude that took over spearmarshaling when kormir got onto the trip with zaishen got into lead position after her ascension to godhood for any time I could imagine that guy completely writing off joko's threat as "some lunacy and fantasies of a warmongering idiot, and no threat at all" xD

 

So big question in here is who was the spearmarshal during Koss's expedtion - was it already Tahlkora, or was there someone in between?

[draxynnic.3719]

Canonically, there WERE a few years. Nightfall was 1075, Beyond ended in 1079 IIRC.

 

I suspect that if it ever gets acknowledged, ArenaNet will say that a new Spearmarshal was appointed after the Slayer of Abaddon disappeared in the caves beneath Istan in 1078.

[Trejgon.9367]

40 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Canonically, there WERE a few years. Nightfall was 1075, Beyond ended in 1079 IIRC.

 

I suspect that if it ever gets acknowledged, ArenaNet will say that a new Spearmarshal was appointed after the Slayer of Abaddon disappeared in the caves beneath Istan in 1078.

 

was slayer of abaddon ever canonically aknowledged as spearmarshal following kormir? as far as I could keep track there is a hole in canon on whom was the spearmarshal between kormir nad tahlkora (tahlkora was last spearmarshal of original sunspears order)

[draxynnic.3719]

58 minutes ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

 

was slayer of abaddon ever canonically aknowledged as spearmarshal following kormir? as far as I could keep track there is a hole in canon on whom was the spearmarshal between kormir nad tahlkora (tahlkora was last spearmarshal of original sunspears order)

I'm pretty sure the PC is acknowledged as the leader of the Sunspears after Kormir's disappearance. That might have been more of an interim thing rather than a formal promotion, though.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

23 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm pretty sure the PC is acknowledged as the leader of the Sunspears after Kormir's disappearance. That might have been more of an interim thing rather than a formal promotion, though.

Hard to imagine that it wasn't.

[Faridah.8431]

I'll have to do some more lore research around Weh No Su. Mechanically it functioned the same as Ascension in Prophecies, so with the Human Gods removed, just like Ascension no longer really being a thing, does that also affect Weh No Su? Or is that a different sort of thing since it was Celestial creatures and are they not linked to the Gods in some way?

 

I don't know, like I said, probably need to do some research to better understand it.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Faridah.8431

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

I'll have to do some more lore research around Weh No Su. Mechanically it functioned the same as Ascension in Prophecies, so with the Human Gods removed, just like Ascension no longer really being a thing, does that also affect Weh No Su? Or is that a different sort of thing since it was Celestial creatures and are they not linked to the Gods in some way?

 

I don't know, like I said, probably need to do some research to better understand it.

Hard to say. The celestial spirits were something that were linked to the gods, but weren't the gods themselves - so it's possible that, similar to the Seven Reapers still being around, the celestial spirits are too and therefore becoming Weh No Su is still possible. I do also get the impression that while they are similar and to some degree equivalent, they're not quite the same thing.

 

What information we've received about End of Dragons suggests that Emperors becoming Weh No Su is still a thing, which implies that either it's still possible to achieve, or the imperial line has gone to some length to make people believe it is.