The Virtuoso in small scale PvP (sPvP/Roaming)

[ascii.1369]

So I voiced some of my concerns for small scale PvP in the big feedback thread already, but I feel like this deserves a topic of it's own.

 

The biggest issue is probably Bladesongs:

First of all, the fact the bladesongs need line of sight is an issue. This might seem minor, but for PvP that's a very significant nerf compared to regular shatters. There are so many situations where you want to shatter while not looking at your opponent, most of all while kiting. And even while you want to face your opponent, quick movement either on your or the opponents part might prevent them from going off. It just feels really clunky.

 

The other issue is, the slow animations make them very telegraphed which is a problem with one-off, high cool down abilities. You're kind of forced to set them up with a stun, otherwise your opponent just dodges or uses a defensive skill. This is especially bad for f3, since setting up a daze with a stun is kind of pointless.

 

And then there is of course the fact that you can't activate them without blades. I haven't found that to be too much of an issue, depending on what traits you run for blade generation, but combined with my previouse points it's one more nerf among many.

 

Twin Blade Restoration:

Again the same problem with line of sight. When I first tested Virtuoso I thought the skill is bugged, going on a 5 second cool down every time you try to use it. Here the issue can be circumvented by not targeting your oppponent, but that's not really practical in PvP.

 

Dagger Skills:

So among the utility skills some are actually decent for PvP and since not every skill has to be great for every game mode that's fine.

 

Unfortunatelly I can't say the same for dagger, while the auto attack feels nice to use (low dmg, but this post is about design not tuning), dagger 2 and 3 feel fairly useless. Dagger 2 is pointless at range, since you don't actually hit your opponent, but also not really worth running into melee for. Dagger 3 again, fairly useless at range, as it moves agonizingly slow. It's ok at closer range, but given that it does nothing except mediocre damage it doesn't feel good either.

 

To be honest, if dagger 2 was something usable at range, maybe with some kind of utility as we see with basically every other mesmer main hand, I wouldn't mind dagger 3 being what it is. But because in PvP both 2 and 3 are useless at range and neither does anything except somewhat decent damage (even that's debatable, but I'm being generous), you mostly find yourself wanting to swap weapons to be useful again.

 

Final thoughts:

As outlined above, I think there are several issues regarding small scale PvP with the Virtuoso, but if I could change just one thing, there would be a clear winner: Don't make Bladesongs and Twin Blade Restoration require line of sight!

[Deaeira.2651]

Agreed, the line of sight issues make it extremely unreliable. It reminds me of the time when blink and sword 3 had the same issues - in WvW you still need to know by heart which structures you can blink on and which ones don't work but at least nowadays it's predictable.

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

There doesn't seem to be a reason so play Virtuoso in PvP. AS a roamer core mesmer has better survivability and more reliable damage with its shatters and IP, even power mirage is more reliable. If its meant to side node it has no survivability as again, all its shatter have ridiculous amounts of counter play (i.e f4 now proccing Full Counter from Warriors). Its its meant to team fight, when you compare it to Shortbow Renagade it lacks the numbers for damage and the survivability. 

 

This elite spec is extremely clumsy.

[Counter Terrorist.7421]

The Virtuoso needs nerfs on the following for starters.
Bladeturn refrain gain 1 aegis every f1 f2 f3 f4 press rework or put a CD on it. 
Duelist's Reversal gives 3 sec quickness on a block 3 sec cd paird with Bladeturn Refrain it's a monster.  

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

1 hour ago, Counter Terrorist.7421 said:

The Virtuoso needs nerfs on the following for starters.
Bladeturn refrain gain 1 aegis every f1 f2 f3 f4 press rework or put a CD on it. 
Duelist's Reversal gives 3 sec quickness on a block 3 sec cd paird with Bladeturn Refrain it's a monster.  

Bladeturns refrain has a CD, its the CD of shatters. They aren't instant cast anymore, so if your getting important skills blocked... wait 3 seconds. 

And 3 seconds of quickness? To do what? Cast the bladesongs quicker? To smash Mesmers autos faster? 

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, Counter Terrorist.7421 said:

The Virtuoso needs nerfs on the following for starters.
Bladeturn refrain gain 1 aegis every f1 f2 f3 f4 press rework or put a CD on it. 
Duelist's Reversal gives 3 sec quickness on a block 3 sec cd paird with Bladeturn Refrain it's a monster.  

Already calling for nerfs lol actually incredible. If you can't get around a 3 sec Aegis or worse can't interrupt or kill when the Virtuoso is casting a shatter I mean I guess that's why they made Virtuoso cast + high animation, guess they didn't make it big enough for some people to fight against it lulz.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I actually dislike dagger 2 because I don't like ranged skills that are actually much better in melee range than at range.  I wish anet would stop doing that. 

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

5 hours ago, Counter Terrorist.7421 said:

The Virtuoso needs nerfs on the following for starters.
Bladeturn refrain gain 1 aegis every f1 f2 f3 f4 press rework or put a CD on it. 
Duelist's Reversal gives 3 sec quickness on a block 3 sec cd paird with Bladeturn Refrain it's a monster.  

There is nothing about Virtuoso that remotely needs nerfing anywhere. 

[Quadox.7834]

You CAN cast bladesongs while kiting, just release your W key for a split second, press the bladesong, then hold W away from your enemy again. You do not need to face your target at the end of the cast. It feels weird at first but trust me, it's actually fun and skillful. I suggest to bind "about face" and learn to use it a lot.

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

1 hour ago, Quadox.7834 said:

You CAN cast bladesongs while kiting, just release your W key for a split second, press the bladesong, then hold W away from your enemy again. You do not need to face your target at the end of the cast. It feels weird at first but trust me, it's actually fun and skillful. I suggest to bind "about face" and learn to use it a lot.

 

1: That's completely counterintuitive. 

2: If you mess up, you're bladesong is now on a 4 second cd which is plenty of time to be punished if your already forced to kite/ disengage. 

[Levetty.1279]

11 hours ago, Counter Terrorist.7421 said:

The Virtuoso needs nerfs on the following for starters.
Bladeturn refrain gain 1 aegis every f1 f2 f3 f4 press rework or put a CD on it. 
Duelist's Reversal gives 3 sec quickness on a block 3 sec cd paird with Bladeturn Refrain it's a monster.  

Spec is absolutely terrible and people are already asking for nerfs? Definitely a Mesmer spec then.

[ascii.1369]

11 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

You CAN cast bladesongs while kiting, just release your W key for a split second, press the bladesong, then hold W away from your enemy again. You do not need to face your target at the end of the cast. It feels weird at first but trust me, it's actually fun and skillful. I suggest to bind "about face" and learn to use it a lot.

Well, obviousely about face is an option, you kind of need it for PvP anyway. But regardless of how you turn around, with about face or manually, you turn around. You're right that it works if you stop pressing W for the cast, but that seems even worse than turning around. While turned around you at least can still move, while just releasing W makes you stop completely.

 

I would say I agree with you somewhat, there are workarounds through good mechanics, so in a sense it's a learn to play issue. But I don't think the "fix" for bad design should be learn to play.

Edited August 19, 2021 by ascii.1369

[Hackuuna.4085]

13 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

You CAN cast bladesongs while kiting, just release your W key for a split second, press the bladesong, then hold W away from your enemy again. You do not need to face your target at the end of the cast. It feels weird at first but trust me, it's actually fun and skillful. I suggest to bind "about face" and learn to use it a lot.

Basically this spec seems to be optimally played as full glass with ranged about facing. 

1. Utilities can be cast while facing away (1200 range on the two AoE damage/immob)
2. Cast F1/F2/F3 and about face immediately after starting the cast
3. Pistol/Greatsword phantasms cast while facing away, periodically turning to do greatsword/dagger skills or autos

If something gap closes on you, you have 3s of invuln (where you can't do anything else since locked in cast time), and 1.5s of block (again locked in 1.5s cast animation). It's really funny that mesmer is designed to be within 600 range and yet this spec is less punishing to anyone within that range.

[Quadox.7834]

1 hour ago, ascii.1369 said:

Well, obviousely about face is an option, you kind of need it for PvP anyway. But regardless of how you turn around, with about face or manually, you turn around. You're right that it works if you stop pressing W for the cast, but that seems even worse than turning around. While turned around you at least can still move, while just releasing W makes you stop completely.

 

I would say I agree with you somewhat, there are workarounds through good mechanics, so in a sense it's a learn to play issue. But I don't think the "fix" for bad design should be learn to play.

you only need to release W for a split second, like 0,1 secs, then you can press it again. Ill try to record some videos to show you guys how it can look.

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

you only need to release W for a split second, like 0,1 secs, then you can press it again. Ill try to record some videos to show you guys how it can look.

Fact you need to even do anything to work around simple casting is a design problem. This should not be a mandatory way to make the class or skills work, this should be optional.

[Quadox.7834]

17 minutes ago, Hackuuna.4085 said:

Basically this spec seems to be optimally played as full glass with ranged about facing. 

1. Utilities can be cast while facing away (1200 range on the two AoE damage/immob)
2. Cast F1/F2/F3 and about face immediately after starting the cast
3. Pistol/Greatsword phantasms cast while facing away, periodically turning to do greatsword/dagger skills or autos

If something gap closes on you, you have 3s of invuln (where you can't do anything else since locked in cast time), and 1.5s of block (again locked in 1.5s cast animation). It's really funny that mesmer is designed to be within 600 range and yet this spec is less punishing to anyone within that range.

Actually you can stow the distortion utility and still get the full 3 secs, although you dont get the blades. Imo if this is a bug they should keep it because it provides a really fun and skilled option. There are a lot of tricks most of you are missing out on that make virtuoso potentially actually good.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

3 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

you only need to release W for a split second, like 0,1 secs, then you can press it again. Ill try to record some videos to show you guys how it can look.

It still doesn't make it a good mechanic or even a rewarding one. Sure, I can do it, but does it make the class feel/ play better, no, its counterintuitive to what the player wants to be doing. Its like ESO combat: sure its fun but in order to be effective you NEED to animation cancel. People do it, but its the main reason people refuse to play ESO.

[Quadox.7834]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Fact you need to even do anything to work around simple casting is a design problem. This should not be a mandatory way to make the class or skills work, this should be optional.

This is pretty normal with various skills in Gw2 though, for example gale on elementalist focus. Managing these types of mechanics are part of what separates the wheat from the chaff and makes it so impressive to see good players playing their class. Honestly count yourself lucky that we can even finish the cast while facing away - most projectiles don't get that luxury. For example with rapid fire you need to face your target the entire cast

Edited August 19, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Salt Mode.3780]

3 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

This is pretty normal with various skills in Gw2 though, for example gale on elementalist focus. Managing these types of mechanics are part of what separates the wheat from the chaff and makes it so impressive to see good players playing their class

Again this is bad design and should not be a BASED requirement especially when this affects 80% of Virtuoso's kit?

Edited August 19, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Quadox.7834]

2 minutes ago, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

It still doesn't make it a good mechanic or even a rewarding one. Sure, I can do it, but does it make the class feel/ play better, no, its counterintuitive to what the player wants to be doing. Its like ESO combat: sure its fun but in order to be effective you NEED to animation cancel. People do it, but its the main reason people refuse to play ESO.

It is kind counterintuitive to be able to face away while throwing a dagger at all - but we should count ourselves lucky that we have that mechanic. Imagine if it was like rapid fire or plasma beam where you need to face your target the whole time. Virtuosos playstyle is comparatively dynamic.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Quadox.7834 said:

It is kind counterintuitive to be able to face away while throwing a dagger at all - but we should count ourselves lucky that we have that mechanic. Imagine if it was like rapid fire or plasma beam where you need to face your target the whole time. Virtuosos playstyle is comparatively dynamic.

Again that isn't their whole kit, there is a reason why no one plays holo especially after the CC dmg nerfs and plays nades scrapper, and rapid fire is only 1 skill in ranger's arsenal of abilities. For Virtuoso its 80% of its kit there is a distinct difference.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

2 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

It is kind counterintuitive to be able to face away while throwing a dagger at all - but we should count ourselves lucky that we have that mechanic. Imagine if it was like rapid fire or plasma beam where you need to face your target the whole time. Virtuosos playstyle is comparatively dynamic.

This is very much in comparison to standard core shatters that are instant and require no target to be used. The bladesongs provide no positive aspects in compared to core.  If your trying to compare having to face your target to other classes, imagine if eles attunement swap required you face your target or get a 4second cd on failure.

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by MrAmputatoes.6031

[Quadox.7834]

7 minutes ago, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

It still doesn't make it a good mechanic or even a rewarding one. Sure, I can do it, but does it make the class feel/ play better, no, its counterintuitive to what the player wants to be doing. Its like ESO combat: sure its fun but in order to be effective you NEED to animation cancel. People do it, but its the main reason people refuse to play ESO.

Animation cancelling are a big part of what makes fighting games combat cool and deep and skilled (incl stuff like L-canceling in smash melee), these types of mechanics might not feel natural from the start but once you get good at it, it starts to flow and feel satisfying. Though I dont know anything about ESO so the implementation there might be boring.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

This is very much in comparison to standard core shatters that are instant and require no target to be used. The bladesongs provide no positive aspects in compared to core. 

People's excuses are well clones can die and blades wont disappear, is a very lame one.

[Quadox.7834]

1 minute ago, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

This is very much in comparison to standard core shatters that are instant and require no target to be used. The bladesongs provide no positive aspects in compared to core. 

The blades cant be killed and you dont need to be melee range.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Quadox.7834