The Virtuoso in small scale PvP (sPvP/Roaming)

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Quadox.7834 said:

Animation cancelling are a big part of what makes fighting games combat cool and deep and skilled (incl stuff like L-canceling in smash melee), these types of mechanics might not feel natural from the start but once you get good at it, it starts to flow and feel satisfying.

Except for Virtuoso animation cancel isnt the same as thief animation cancel. It is extremely detrimental for a cast skill to animation cancel because it goes on a small CD, and requires to cast again whereas thief animation cancel for example weapon stow into a instant hit.

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

People's excuses are well clones can die and blades wont disappear, is a very lame one.

Blades can be LOS'd. Or if your in melee, reflected/ destroyed cause they're projectiles. They dont even provide the benefit of clones. Sword clone boon rips, staff and scepter provide condi pressure or boons. Blades are a nice idea, but they don't fix any problems or provide a different playstyle compared to core.

[Hackuuna.4085]

6 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Actually you can stow the distortion utility and still get the full 3 secs, although you dont get the blades. Imo if this is a bug they should keep it because it provides a really fun and skilled option. There are a lot of tricks most of you are missing out on that make virtuoso potentially actually good.

That's really cool, didn't know you could do that. We're now entering very viable and cool territory, though I have my doubts that it's intentional. If they removed the cast time component of the block/invuln (or allowed you to stow the minor effects) then I think it would be in much better shape.

[Salt Mode.3780]

12 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Actually you can stow the distortion utility and still get the full 3 secs, although you dont get the blades. Imo if this is a bug they should keep it because it provides a really fun and skilled option. There are a lot of tricks most of you are missing out on that make virtuoso potentially actually good.

Also im pretty sure this will get fixed soon enough there hasent been anything that is remotely abuseable for mesmers without it getting fixed or removed shortly.

[Quadox.7834]

6 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again that isn't their whole kit, there is a reason why no one plays holo especially after the CC dmg nerfs and plays nades scrapper, and rapid fire is only 1 skill in ranger's arsenal of abilities. For Virtuoso its 80% of its kit there is a distinct difference.

Dont know what you are saying here, dont know what holo has to do with this. Most projectiles need to face your target either the whole way through (like rapid fire) or at the end (like point blank shot). Virtuoso only at the start which is the better option.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Dont know what you are saying here, dont know what holo has to do with this. Most projectiles need to face your target either the whole way through (like rapid fire) or at the end (like point blank shot). Virtuoso only at the start which is the better option.

Yes but the projectiles are much faster then what Virtuoso has currently. Like you said most projectile requires to face your target but the fact that this is ALL of virtuoso's kit is the problem.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Quadox.7834]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Also im pretty sure this will get fixed soon enough there hasent been anything that is remotely abuseable for mesmers without it getting fixed or removed shortly.

Yeah sadly it might, some people will prob report it too because they are goody two-shoes. It should absolutely stay in the game because there is a drawback to doing it (you lose out on the 5 blades) which means there is a choic, which means there it adds skill cieling.

[Quadox.7834]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Yes but the projectiles are much faster then what Virtuoso has currently. Like you said most projectile requires to face your target but the fact that this is ALL of virtuoso's kit is the problem.

I agree the projectiles are bad on F1 and F3, this is what we should be campaigning for them to fix first and foremost, F2 is good though.

[glenndevis.8327]

Hmmm I've been PvPing with Virtuoso quite a bit and I get that not EVERY ability is supposed to be good for PvP but i'll give my 2 cents on them anyway.

 

Dagger: Honestly quite useless for PvP

Auto attacks are too weak. #2: It's pretty good blade regeneration since low cooldown, the return is way too slow, low damage. #3: pretty useless honestly. I think if it would be a ground target skill that doesn't move and stays in place with a cripple effect on it it would at least not be useless to cast. I think the weapon needs something that helps kiting.

 

Utilities:

Heal is alright but you need to face the enemy while casting it. Let people cast it  when not facing the target. This is a big problem for PvP.

Blade Renewal: Sucks that it's a channel/cast. Wouldn't be as bad if bladesongs were instacasts so you could burst right after coming out of it.

Psychic Force: Needs a cripple tied to it to make it more useful.

 

Traits:

Bladeturn refrain should grant aegis at start of cast.

Psychic Riposte blade should do a lot more damage. The damage is WAY too low.

 

Bladesongs:

Generally the cast times are a big problem imo. Especially with the lack of mobility making it hard to kite and use them safely if being pressured from close up. Sucks that you need to be facing the enemy to land them

 

Overall I feel like the spec is suppsosed to stay at safe distance and kite while doing good burst damage with bladesongs but we're not giving the tools to kite & stay at range to do the damage. Plus everything being a projectile kinda sucks I suppose.

[ascii.1369]

4 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Animation cancelling are a big part of what makes fighting games combat cool and deep and skilled (incl stuff like L-canceling in smash melee), these types of mechanics might not feel natural from the start but once you get good at it, it starts to flow and feel satisfying.

So your posts seem to pretty much boil down to this quote and I think we're just having a difference of opinion here. You seem to think that anyone who finds bad design/coding an issue just isn't good enough to exploit it. In my opinion animation canceling and similar stuff shouldn't be a part of any game, it's just bad design or lazy coding. If they want their combat system really skill based they should implement it that way, not rely on what is essentially bugs to make so.

Edited August 19, 2021 by ascii.1369

[Quadox.7834]

3 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

So your posts seem to pretty much boil down to this quote and I think we're just having a difference of opinion here. You seem to think that anyone who finds bad design/coding an issue just isn't good enough to exploit it. In my opinion animation canceling and similar stuff shouldn't be a part of any game, it's just bad design or lazy coding. If they want their combat system really skill based they should implement it that way, not rely on what is essentially bugs to make so.

The facing your target thing we are talking about in this  thread though is not a bug

Edited August 20, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Daniel Handler.4816]

[&DQcBJxc7Qj9uAQAAgwEAAIIBAABlAQAAmgEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

 

dueling/inspiration rampagers/krait with sword/pistol + dagger/torch seems to be working quite well as a teamfighter and occasional +1. None of the new utilities were that useful though, nor the top traitline which is supposedly for pvp. 

[Nezekan.2671]

The dagger seems utterly useless in all modes. Other weapon options are simply better. Which is really sad.

[Downstate.4697]

I found dagger to be good in pvp to bait dodges and build blades. Now instead of aegis we get like 2s of superspeed it would play like FA ele.

[ascii.1369]

16 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

The facing your target thing we are talking about in this  thread though is not a bug

True, I would put that in the category of bad design. The fact that it works as normal while not pressing W is beyond stupid to me. Either they want it to be line of sight, in which case you should need to face the target, or not, in which case it should just work like normal shatters.

[Quadox.7834]

7 hours ago, ascii.1369 said:

True, I would put that in the category of bad design. The fact that it works as normal while not pressing W is beyond stupid to me. Either they want it to be line of sight, in which case you should need to face the target, or not, in which case it should just work like normal shatters.

The reason it works when not pressing w is because skills in this game have an auto-face functionality when standing still. For example, try it with mirror blade. This is universal in this game and not unique for virtuoso shatters.

[ascii.1369]

10 hours ago, Quadox.7834 said:

The reason it works when not pressing w is because skills in this game have an auto-face functionality when standing still. For example, try it with mirror blade. This is universal in this game and not unique for virtuoso shatters.

Yes, technically it works as intended, but at least in my opinion "as intended" produces unfortunate results here. The issue is basically with all skills that are instant but require line of sight. To maybe get back to the original point of the topic, as far as I'm concerned bladesongs shouldn't require line of sight anyway, same for the virtuoso healing skill.

Edited August 21, 2021 by ascii.1369

[Quadox.7834]

On 8/21/2021 at 12:04 PM, ascii.1369 said:

Yes, technically it works as intended, but at least in my opinion "as intended" produces unfortunate results here. The issue is basically with all skills that are instant but require line of sight. To maybe get back to the original point of the topic, as far as I'm concerned bladesongs shouldn't require line of sight anyway, same for the virtuoso healing skill.

But virt f1-f3 aren't instant, so what do you mean?

Edited August 22, 2021 by Quadox.7834