any viable wvw condi or cele build?

Hi,1) Is there any viable condi build for wvw roaming/dueling nowadays? Was thinking in something heavy on stealth and traillblazer gear. Anything similar to pd perplexity thief of years ago?

2) Is there any viable full cele sustain build?

The standard P/D thief should still be good. You dont really use stealth much though, you mostly rely on skill 3 and unload.

Thief is not a good fit for Cele stats. There isnt as a result.

perplexity thief is still a thing
heres the build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAoiVlNwkYbMImJOuW2vVA-zVRYch8QGdU4FSOFQHRQIpg2XCBV+OKYNY4BD-w

you go steal > binding shadow > cantrap > cantrap > mercy > steal > cantrip cantrip combo take about 2.5s to cast

^-- keep in mind this a meme combo.

P/d works fine though I disagree it does not work well with stealth. In fact the more stealth the better I find as that #1 can pump out lots of conditions in a DE spec using Tormenting runes. You rely on the #1 skill a lot as it has bleeds on every shot and if in DE attacks from stealth come with Torment when full malice.

It not overly difficult to get Full malice. You just need a crit rate around 20 so are not sacrificing a lot there. What this allows is 5 Bleed + 5 torment when making your #1 attack from stealth. Tormenting runes gives 171 base heal per torment stack meaning that same attack from stealth will do a 855 heal base if at full malice when you make that attack. When you look at your Number 3 skill used in conjunction that gives 4 torment (plus the heals) followed up with the bleeds from repeater. deadly ambition adds poison here each time your number three used. Flickering shadows plus those heals and Shadows rejuv makes you very robust.

This is a DA/DE/SA spec but dropping one of those is certainly doable if you want to go the TR route. TR is burstier in that you can stack on some confusion as well but it does not have the sustain of a build with SA and when looking at DE the things you steal are better for a condition build then a non DE spec.

I tried this version using core (DA/SA/TR) and did not like it as much as the stealth offered by the DE version made this a lot better for roaming.

At first glance it might not seem that DE offers much to a Condition build but this different in practice and especially with p/d.

Dropping DA in favor of DE/TR/SA can also be done and is more then viable dependent on style.

Traitlines that do not work well with pure Condi p/d are CS obviously Acro and then Daredevil in that order.

@babazhook.6805 said:P/d works fine though I disagree it does not work well with stealth. In fact the more stealth the better I find as that #1 can pump out lots of conditions in a DE spec using Tormenting runes. You rely on the #1 skill a lot as it has bleeds on every shot and if in DE attacks from stealth come with Torment when full malice.

Id argue the best version doesnt use DE. Not being able to use Steal to go into melee to hit skill 3 is a weakness, and DE generally doesnt offer you much. Entering stealth is also either really inconvenient, or happens when the enemy is kinda dead anyway.

It not overly difficult to get Full malice. You just need a crit rate around 20 so are not sacrificing a lot there. What this allows is 5 Bleed + 5 torment when making your #1 attack from stealth. Tormenting runes gives 171 base heal per torment stack meaning that same attack from stealth will do a 855 heal base if at full malice when you make that attack. When you look at your Number 3 skill used in conjunction that gives 4 torment (plus the heals) followed up with the bleeds from repeater. deadly ambition adds poison here each time your number three used. Flickering shadows plus those heals and Shadows rejuv makes you very robust.

Its not exactly, but usually when you reach max malice, the enemy is dead anyway. Its kinda redundant. Youd rather have the ability to just jump on them with steal and use skill 3 to get unload.

This is a DA/DE/SA spec but dropping one of those is certainly doable if you want to go the TR route. TR is burstier in that you can stack on some confusion as well but it does not have the sustain of a build with SA and when looking at DE the things you steal are better for a condition build then a non DE spec.

I tried this version using core (DA/SA/TR) and did not like it as much as the stealth offered by the DE version made this a lot better for roaming.

Eh. Stealth is a trap. Any half-decent roamer will punish you for going into stealth, so you want to avoid it as much as possible. Only to get a quick skill 1 burst maybe, but DE doesnt really help you there. Youd rather have the increased burst from trickery, the added damage from Shadow arts (and possibly some utility) and the DA damage.

At first glance it might not seem that DE offers much to a Condition build but this different in practice and especially with p/d.

That is at a first glance, and also once youve played with it more. It indeed offers very little.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:P/d works fine though I disagree it does not work well with stealth. In fact the more stealth the better I find as that #1 can pump out lots of conditions in a DE spec using Tormenting runes. You rely on the #1 skill a lot as it has bleeds on every shot and if in DE attacks from stealth come with Torment when full malice.

It not overly difficult to get Full malice. You just need a crit rate around 20 so are not sacrificing a lot there. What this allows is 5 Bleed + 5 torment when making your #1 attack from stealth. Tormenting runes gives 171 base heal per torment stack meaning that same attack from stealth will do a 855 heal base if at full malice when you make that attack. When you look at your Number 3 skill used in conjunction that gives 4 torment (plus the heals) followed up with the bleeds from repeater. deadly ambition adds poison here each time your number three used. Flickering shadows plus those heals and Shadows rejuv makes you very robust.

This is a DA/DE/SA spec but dropping one of those is certainly doable if you want to go the TR route. TR is burstier in that you can stack on some confusion as well but it does not have the sustain of a build with SA and when looking at DE the things you steal are better for a condition build then a non DE spec.

I tried this version using core (DA/SA/TR) and did not like it as much as the stealth offered by the DE version made this a lot better for roaming.

At first glance it might not seem that DE offers much to a Condition build but this different in practice and especially with p/d.

Do you even play the spec? I have played both versions DE and TR and DE has plenty to offer.

First you do not camp stealth. You weave stealth which is a very different thing. Even the odds + mali 7 will work your might stacks to 20+ in short order. By weaving stealth you get the 33 percent damage reduction from flickering shadows and this works with iron sights another 10 percent reduction. Use the ascended food for another 10 percent reduction and you can mitigate a lot of damage.

DE offers oodles of INI , much more then comes from the TR line. Mercy + mali 7 is 14 ini allowing you to more freely use attacks that cost the same. Mali 7 also throws on regen/protection and all of those other boons which is pretty well a mini steal plasma save for the fact it works against any class you face.

DE offers much better "stolen" items for a Condi spec. Using mercy and Improv (if you go that route over Potent Poison) you can stack 20 bleeds on a necro from range without even getting into their AOE. You can garner resistance plus stack 12 torment on a rev at range. The DE steal from engineer is much more useful then the core version as it applies 10 seconds vuln and 5 secs protection which you can use twice in a row with improv. 4 times in short order with a mercy reset.

The steal reset on downing an enemy and or used in conjunction with mercy is significant often giving you three and more steals for every 1 steal core set gets. yes you get that Confusion spike from TR but that once every 21 seconds. Steal three times with DE in the same time period and you will garner more overall damage then that 3 secs confusion gets you. added to that you get another stealth source when at full mali via f2.

The single largest advantage of TR is the 15 percent lead attacks and I went that route for a while before I went back to DE as I found I was more efficient with DE .

To the port on steal it not as big an issue with p/d as it is with d/d condition as you can fight from range if need be and apply significant damage. This not like you have to close to do damage. Allow the enemy to close on you and then use your #3.

Enemy closes on you. Used p/3 port away as you apply torment use repeater twice. he closes again this about time to withdraw for heal. This stealths you and opens a gap while stealthed use #1 for 5 torment 5 bleed. enemy closes use #3 port away. If you got your torment to 100 duration an attack from stealth with full mali using #1 skill is 5 stacks torment 5 stacks bleed 900 heal for that one attack.

Now assume you take DE and TR as that also a choice (some drop DA others drop SA for this. I would drop SA myself). You want to see Burst? Use the mercy reset to load the Confusion off BA twice. Add this to that 20 bleeds against a necro or 12 Torment on rev. That is plenty of burst.

@UNOwen.7132 said:The standard P/D thief should still be good. You dont really use stealth much though, you mostly rely on skill 3 and unload.

Thief is not a good fit for Cele stats. There isnt as a result.

Celestial is literally one of the few stat combos that allows Thief to fight visibly without getting exploded, since it brings reasonable damage and defense, so this statement isn't entirely true. Other stats require hybridising (except maybe Marauder, if you can deal with it overstacking Precision on Thief's already very high crit rate), and rely heavily on Stealth to avoid getting instagibbed.

This is the case with all the low-health classes (Guardian, Ele, and Thief), which struggle to take other stats alongside Vitality.

Its important to undertsand that Thief (especially Deadeye) has significant modifiers that can be exploited, and though you're forced into Dagger mainhand to make full use of it (and its only optimal on D/D for damage), its not that bad overall.

That said I wouldn't use full Cele, usually just the trinkets combined with some four-stat armor and weapons is good.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:P/d works fine though I disagree it does not work well with stealth. In fact the more stealth the better I find as that #1 can pump out lots of conditions in a DE spec using Tormenting runes. You rely on the #1 skill a lot as it has bleeds on every shot and if in DE attacks from stealth come with Torment when full malice.

It not overly difficult to get Full malice. You just need a crit rate around 20 so are not sacrificing a lot there. What this allows is 5 Bleed + 5 torment when making your #1 attack from stealth. Tormenting runes gives 171 base heal per torment stack meaning that same attack from stealth will do a 855 heal base if at full malice when you make that attack. When you look at your Number 3 skill used in conjunction that gives 4 torment (plus the heals) followed up with the bleeds from repeater. deadly ambition adds poison here each time your number three used. Flickering shadows plus those heals and Shadows rejuv makes you very robust.

This is a DA/DE/SA spec but dropping one of those is certainly doable if you want to go the TR route. TR is burstier in that you can stack on some confusion as well but it does not have the sustain of a build with SA and when looking at DE the things you steal are better for a condition build then a non DE spec.

I tried this version using core (DA/SA/TR) and did not like it as much as the stealth offered by the DE version made this a lot better for roaming.

At first glance it might not seem that DE offers much to a Condition build but this different in practice and especially with p/d.

Actively, right now? Not really. I tested it out a fair bit, but found it was still just less exciting than playing condi ranger. But I did use to play a fair bit. Hence my comments.

First you do not camp stealth. You weave stealth which is a very different thing. Even the odds + mali 7 will work your might stacks to 20+ in short order. By weaving stealth you get the 33 percent damage reduction from flickering shadows and this works with iron sights another 10 percent reduction. Use the ascended food for another 10 percent reduction and you can mitigate a lot of damage.

The problem is you lack ways to weave in stealth. Cloak and Dagger is terrible, you dont want to use improv and the cantrips arent worth using one in the chamber for. If you reach malificent sevens max stacks and the enemy isnt dead, youre also probably facing an anti-condi bunker build, and ya arent getting him dead anyway. Also Flickering Shadow is just worse than leeching venoms (damage reduction doesnt save you vs condi which is your biggest trouble anyway, and since stealth is hard to use without getting punished, you dont get much out of it).

DE offers oodles of INI , much more then comes from the TR line. Mercy + mali 7 is 14 ini allowing you to more freely use attacks that cost the same. Mali 7 also throws on regen/protection and all of those other boons which is pretty well a mini steal plasma save for the fact it works against any class you face.

It offers initiative in case everything hit. But at that point, your opponent should already be dead. If he isnt, then as said anti-condi bunker, you wont kill him anyway.

DE offers much better "stolen" items for a Condi spec. Using mercy and Improv (if you go that route over Potent Poison) you can stack 20 bleeds on a necro from range without even getting into their AOE. You can garner resistance plus stack 12 torment on a rev at range. The DE steal from engineer is much more useful then the core version as it applies 10 seconds vuln and 5 secs protection which you can use twice in a row with improv. 4 times in short order with a mercy reset.

Only 3 of them apply damaging condis. Unfortunately, those 3 are when youre fighting the worst possible specs. Poison on Guardian, who has cleanses ad infinitum. Torment on Revenant, who can dish out more resistance than I can bother to count (also has healing light). And Necro? Well, youre not gonna be fighting them very often outside of teamfight scenarios (Where you suffer), and the few you will find are the type that use your conditions against you. Thats the trouble.

The steal reset on downing an enemy and or used in conjunction with mercy is significant often giving you three and more steals for every 1 steal core set gets. yes you get that Confusion spike from TR but that once every 21 seconds. Steal three times with DE in the same time period and you will garner more overall damage then that 3 secs confusion gets you. added to that you get another stealth source when at full mali via f2.

Youre not using Trickery though. Whats steal giving you exactly, a bit of poison? Thats just not worth it. The confusion is much better. Youre also a burst spec that has to fight in 1v1s as larget groups easily handle you. So being better in the one situation youre awful at anyway doesnt help you.

The single largest advantage of TR is the 15 percent lead attacks and I went that route for a while before I went back to DE as I found I was more efficient with DE .

Well, that, the confusion, the boonrip and the caltrops for making it harder to catch up to oyu.

To the port on steal it not as big an issue with p/d as it is with d/d condition as you can fight from range if need be and apply significant damage. This not like you have to close to do damage. Allow the enemy to close on you and then use your #3.

It is. If youre not close enough, your damage is pretty pathetic, as you rely on dagger 4 and maybe pistol 2. Any ranged build will kill you long before you can kill them. Your burst also becomes jankier.

Enemy closes on you. Used p/3 port away as you apply torment use repeater twice. he closes again this about time to withdraw for heal. This stealths you and opens a gap while stealthed use #1 for 5 torment 5 bleed. enemy closes use #3 port away. If you got your torment to 100 duration an attack from stealth with full mali using #1 skill is 5 stacks torment 5 stacks bleed 900 heal for that one attack.

Or the enemy doesnt ever get into your melee range and just trains Rapid Fire on you. Maybe Ghastly Claws. Or whatever other ranged option you want. Or they do teleport on you and CC you, getting the drop.

Now assume you take DE and TR as that also a choice (some drop DA others drop SA for this. I would drop SA myself). You want to see Burst? Use the mercy reset to load the Confusion off BA twice. Add this to that 20 bleeds against a necro or 12 Torment on rev. That is plenty of burst.

Which requires you to either lose SA or DA, both of which are much more valuable.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:P/d works fine though I disagree it does not work well with stealth. In fact the more stealth the better I find as that #1 can pump out lots of conditions in a DE spec using Tormenting runes. You rely on the #1 skill a lot as it has bleeds on every shot and if in DE attacks from stealth come with Torment when full malice.

It not overly difficult to get Full malice. You just need a crit rate around 20 so are not sacrificing a lot there. What this allows is 5 Bleed + 5 torment when making your #1 attack from stealth. Tormenting runes gives 171 base heal per torment stack meaning that same attack from stealth will do a 855 heal base if at full malice when you make that attack. When you look at your Number 3 skill used in conjunction that gives 4 torment (plus the heals) followed up with the bleeds from repeater. deadly ambition adds poison here each time your number three used. Flickering shadows plus those heals and Shadows rejuv makes you very robust.

This is a DA/DE/SA spec but dropping one of those is certainly doable if you want to go the TR route. TR is burstier in that you can stack on some confusion as well but it does not have the sustain of a build with SA and when looking at DE the things you steal are better for a condition build then a non DE spec.

I tried this version using core (DA/SA/TR) and did not like it as much as the stealth offered by the DE version made this a lot better for roaming.

At first glance it might not seem that DE offers much to a Condition build but this different in practice and especially with p/d.

First you do not camp stealth. You weave stealth which is a very different thing. Even the odds + mali 7 will work your might stacks to 20+ in short order. By weaving stealth you get the 33 percent damage reduction from flickering shadows and this works with iron sights another 10 percent reduction. Use the ascended food for another 10 percent reduction and you can mitigate a lot of damage.

DE offers oodles of INI , much more then comes from the TR line. Mercy + mali 7 is 14 ini allowing you to more freely use attacks that cost the same. Mali 7 also throws on regen/protection and all of those other boons which is pretty well a mini steal plasma save for the fact it works against any class you face.

DE offers much better "stolen" items for a Condi spec. Using mercy and Improv (if you go that route over Potent Poison) you can stack 20 bleeds on a necro from range without even getting into their AOE. You can garner resistance plus stack 12 torment on a rev at range. The DE steal from engineer is much more useful then the core version as it applies 10 seconds vuln and 5 secs protection which you can use twice in a row with improv. 4 times in short order with a mercy reset.

The steal reset on downing an enemy and or used in conjunction with mercy is significant often giving you three and more steals for every 1 steal core set gets. yes you get that Confusion spike from TR but that once every 21 seconds. Steal three times with DE in the same time period and you will garner more overall damage then that 3 secs confusion gets you. added to that you get another stealth source when at full mali via f2.

The single largest advantage of TR is the 15 percent lead attacks and I went that route for a while before I went back to DE as I found I was more efficient with DE .

To the port on steal it not as big an issue with p/d as it is with d/d condition as you can fight from range if need be and apply significant damage. This not like you have to close to do damage. Allow the enemy to close on you and then use your #3.

Enemy closes on you. Used p/3 port away as you apply torment use repeater twice. he closes again this about time to withdraw for heal. This stealths you and opens a gap while stealthed use #1 for 5 torment 5 bleed. enemy closes use #3 port away. If you got your torment to 100 duration an attack from stealth with full mali using #1 skill is 5 stacks torment 5 stacks bleed 900 heal for that one attack.

Now assume you take DE and TR as that also a choice (some drop DA others drop SA for this. I would drop SA myself). You want to see Burst? Use the mercy reset to load the Confusion off BA twice. Add this to that 20 bleeds against a necro or 12 Torment on rev. That is plenty of burst.

What do you mean you lack ways to weave stealth? I do it all the time on p/d.

You have two sources on your elite with Shadowmeld.You have Cloak and dagger , albeit harder to pull off but you have so much INI in the DE build you can afford to use INI for the same.You have a source on your heal. Withdraw as example puts you into stealth.You have the F2 source.

That is plenty but you could add more if you wished via Blinding power or shadow gust. Shadow gust is very useful when pushing people off a downed person whom you want to stomp. (if you take CIS even better).

Damage is not "pathetic" at range> I have already shown how you can stack conditions using just your steal. Ghastly claws? Sorry but you can put 20 bleeds on that Necro with just your steal. Range not closed at all and as you do this you add might. Steal against Necro using the DE spec is applies 5 stacks of bleed plus that poisn from DA and you can do this 4 times in succession . This is coupled with a heal of over 1200 for a 4800 heal if used 4 times in succession.

For your revenant your steal in the DE spec applies 3 stacks torment but also steals resistance which can be done 4 times in succession (12 seconds resistance!)

Necro in fact is one of your easiest kills when in the DE spec.

To all those ranged weapons. You are already mitigating damage as I pointed out...33 10 and 10. You are healing everytime you apply torment and stealth. You are applying weakness via your steals. That amount of ranged damage does not change because you dropped DE to take TR.

Lesser Caltrops is not good in a DE build as you do not want to dodge when at melee. you want to use your #3 and it does you no good to drop caltrops at range via dodge as it stays there just over a second. no ones going to run through it.

I play this build LOTS and have played the non DE version. The DE version is much more effective especially when roaming.

You mention all the downsides of facing bunker cleanses builds, a Rapid fire ranger or someone porting and using CC. Taking TR over DE does not make this any better.

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:The standard P/D thief should still be good. You dont really use stealth much though, you mostly rely on skill 3 and unload.

Thief is not a good fit for Cele stats. There isnt as a result.

I have a hybrid version of thief using p/p and s/d. It in grieving mostly with a small mix of celestial. the food is Celestial. Base power 2160 base Condition damage 1660 and 16.5k health. Crit rate 44 percent 180 percent crit bonus. I tried all out for damage and I needed more health without sacrificing a lot and the celestial stuff does that. I would NOT go all celestial but mixing some in is fine.

The fact it has low stealth makes it imperative that you have some vitality. Even if taken by surprise if you get some attacks off after that initial damage taken you can turn a fight around. Now the build I use is still flimsy and I work with perfecting it but Celestial does have its place.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:P/d works fine though I disagree it does not work well with stealth. In fact the more stealth the better I find as that #1 can pump out lots of conditions in a DE spec using Tormenting runes. You rely on the #1 skill a lot as it has bleeds on every shot and if in DE attacks from stealth come with Torment when full malice.

It not overly difficult to get Full malice. You just need a crit rate around 20 so are not sacrificing a lot there. What this allows is 5 Bleed + 5 torment when making your #1 attack from stealth. Tormenting runes gives 171 base heal per torment stack meaning that same attack from stealth will do a 855 heal base if at full malice when you make that attack. When you look at your Number 3 skill used in conjunction that gives 4 torment (plus the heals) followed up with the bleeds from repeater. deadly ambition adds poison here each time your number three used. Flickering shadows plus those heals and Shadows rejuv makes you very robust.

This is a DA/DE/SA spec but dropping one of those is certainly doable if you want to go the TR route. TR is burstier in that you can stack on some confusion as well but it does not have the sustain of a build with SA and when looking at DE the things you steal are better for a condition build then a non DE spec.

I tried this version using core (DA/SA/TR) and did not like it as much as the stealth offered by the DE version made this a lot better for roaming.

At first glance it might not seem that DE offers much to a Condition build but this different in practice and especially with p/d.

First you do not camp stealth. You weave stealth which is a very different thing. Even the odds + mali 7 will work your might stacks to 20+ in short order. By weaving stealth you get the 33 percent damage reduction from flickering shadows and this works with iron sights another 10 percent reduction. Use the ascended food for another 10 percent reduction and you can mitigate a lot of damage.

DE offers oodles of INI , much more then comes from the TR line. Mercy + mali 7 is 14 ini allowing you to more freely use attacks that cost the same. Mali 7 also throws on regen/protection and all of those other boons which is pretty well a mini steal plasma save for the fact it works against any class you face.

DE offers much better "stolen" items for a Condi spec. Using mercy and Improv (if you go that route over Potent Poison) you can stack 20 bleeds on a necro from range without even getting into their AOE. You can garner resistance plus stack 12 torment on a rev at range. The DE steal from engineer is much more useful then the core version as it applies 10 seconds vuln and 5 secs protection which you can use twice in a row with improv. 4 times in short order with a mercy reset.

The steal reset on downing an enemy and or used in conjunction with mercy is significant often giving you three and more steals for every 1 steal core set gets. yes you get that Confusion spike from TR but that once every 21 seconds. Steal three times with DE in the same time period and you will garner more overall damage then that 3 secs confusion gets you. added to that you get another stealth source when at full mali via f2.

The single largest advantage of TR is the 15 percent lead attacks and I went that route for a while before I went back to DE as I found I was more efficient with DE .

To the port on steal it not as big an issue with p/d as it is with d/d condition as you can fight from range if need be and apply significant damage. This not like you have to close to do damage. Allow the enemy to close on you and then use your #3.

Enemy closes on you. Used p/3 port away as you apply torment use repeater twice. he closes again this about time to withdraw for heal. This stealths you and opens a gap while stealthed use #1 for 5 torment 5 bleed. enemy closes use #3 port away. If you got your torment to 100 duration an attack from stealth with full mali using #1 skill is 5 stacks torment 5 stacks bleed 900 heal for that one attack.

Now assume you take DE and TR as that also a choice (some drop DA others drop SA for this. I would drop SA myself). You want to see Burst? Use the mercy reset to load the Confusion off BA twice. Add this to that 20 bleeds against a necro or 12 Torment on rev. That is plenty of burst.

Your ways of obtaining stealth are limited and unsafe. Or require giving up better skills.

You have two sources on your elite with Shadowmeld.

Which means you had to take Shadowmeld over, say, Daggerstorm, or possibly basilisk venom. Thats not great.

You have Cloak and dagger , albeit harder to pull off but you have so much INI in the DE build you can afford to use INI for the same.

Against any half-decent enemy CnD doesnt do anything but waste initiative.

You have a source on your heal. Withdraw as example puts you into stealth.

True, but thats once every 18 seconds.

You have the F2 source.

Thats the other one, once every 25 seconds.

That is plenty but you could add more if you wished via Blinding power or shadow gust. Shadow gust is very useful when pushing people off a downed person whom you want to stomp. (if you take CIS even better).

Which requires giving up better utilities. Generally not worth it. Well, Shadow Refuge might be, because of the projectile finisher thing.

Damage is not "pathetic" at range> I have already shown how you can stack conditions using just your steal. Ghastly claws? Sorry but you can put 20 bleeds on that Necro with just your steal. Range not closed at all and as you do this you add might.

Its pretty pathetic. You have shown only on necro, and here is the thing. If you do that, you better hope he is not using any of the meta builds. Because if theyre using a meta-build, well those 20 bleeds will be killing you, not them.

Necro in fact is one of your easiest kills when in the DE spec.

If theyre playing a meta build, they shouldnt be. They transfer the conditions you apply on them back.

To all those ranged weapons. You are already mitigating damage as I pointed out...33 10 and 10. You are healing everytime you apply torment and stealth. You are applying weakness via your steals. That amount of ranged damage does not change because you dropped DE to take TR.

Well, except youre not gonna get stealth at range (unless you use shadow meld but thats kinda bad), and the damage reduction doesnt last that long (And still requires giving up the much better leeching venom trait). The healing you get from stealth is minimal .Torment healing is alright. Youre right that the ranged damage doesnt change, but TR gives you a way to get into melee to then unload spam for burst. If youre at range, youre at a major disadvantage, as your damage is extremely limited and easily interrupted (if they interrupt your stealth attack youre not doing anything for 3 seconds). While heavily outclassed. Even if youre using flickering shadows.

Lesser Caltrops is not good in a DE build as you do not want to dodge when at melee. you want to use your #3 and it does you no good to drop caltrops at range via dodge as it stays there just over a second. no ones going to run through it.

Lesser Caltrops are there to make it harder for them to get to you when you dont want them to be closer.

I play this build LOTS and have played the non DE version. The DE version is much more effective especially when roaming.

From my experience when I played it, and when playing against it nowadays, the DE version is much less effective, as it lacks the burst and gets crushed by any ranged build, struggling to get in range to get unload spam going while being heavily outdamaged.

If you are in a group you might consider the TR version and just go for the +1 but you are in no way more survivable taking TR over DE. Added to that in a group payback is much more effective.

You dont have to be more survivable. Thats not your goal. However, TR is much better at bursting, and as a result much more effective than DE. With DE youre trying to play a sustained playstyle, but P/D really cant do that well at all.

@UNOwen.7132 said:You dont have to be more survivable. Thats not your goal. However, TR is much better at bursting, and as a result much more effective than DE. With DE youre trying to play a sustained playstyle, but P/D really cant do that well at all.

Have you tried since the SA rework? Between tormenting runes, the life steal on sneak attacks from SA, the spider venom stacks from stealth from SA and the permanent regen from M7, you've actually got a lot more sustain than you might think. Also, you're assuming that the deadeye stays in P/D all the time, rifle makes for quite a good defensive weapon with the range, projectile hate and the stealth on dodge. Lastly, it seems unfair to fault the spec for being unable to kill someone that has specifically built to sustain it, if that wasn't the case the build would be OP.

Edit: Trickery is a much better choice if you take daredevil for sure because you can time your burst for when the opponent has no cleanses, but is wasted on deadeye as you're pretty much required to use your mark at the start of a fight. Deadeye is more of a sustained playstyle, which is actually why P/D is strong now repeater can spam 20 stacks of bleed on something with very fast reapplication. The speed of application makes it a great cover condi and a good way to force cleanses, and while the bleeds don't last long, the poisons and torments do.

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You dont have to be more survivable. Thats not your goal. However, TR is much better at bursting, and as a result much more effective than DE. With DE youre trying to play a sustained playstyle, but P/D really cant do that well at all.

Your sustain still falls woefully short of any other roamer. You cant survive being focused for very long, even now. Your sustained damage also suffers since you lack the way to get in to unlock unload. Rifle is pretty bad on condi builds. The range is not that great (1200 unless you kneel, but then youre immobile and the enemy can just run after you) and the projectile screen is fairly easy to circumvent.

Edit: Trickery is a much better choice if you take daredevil for sure because you can time your burst for when the opponent has no cleanses, but is wasted on deadeye as you're pretty much required to use your mark at the start of a fight. Deadeye is more of a sustained playstyle, which is actually why P/D is strong now repeater can spam 20 stacks of bleed on something with very fast reapplication. The speed of application makes it a great cover condi and a good way to force cleanses, and while the bleeds don't last long, the poisons and torments do.

My point is that you replace DE with Trickery. DEs mark is a marked (heh) downgrade for P/D, as it removes the teleport you use to be able to to start unload spamming. On DE you will greatly struggle ever even getting to the unload spam unless you run something like Infiltrators Signet.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:You dont have to be more survivable. Thats not your goal. However, TR is much better at bursting, and as a result much more effective than DE. With DE youre trying to play a sustained playstyle, but P/D really cant do that well at all.

Edit: Trickery is a much better choice if you take daredevil for sure because you can time your burst for when the opponent has no cleanses, but is wasted on deadeye as you're pretty much required to use your mark at the start of a fight. Deadeye is more of a sustained playstyle, which is actually why P/D is strong now repeater can spam 20 stacks of bleed on something with very fast reapplication. The speed of application makes it a great cover condi and a good way to force cleanses, and while the bleeds don't last long, the poisons and torments do.

Okay, well, you do you. It's a good build, and one of the stronger roaming builds available to thief atm imo. And yeah, the sustain is nothing compared to boonbeast or weaver, but if we had that level of sustain on top of our active defenses we would be stupid OP, there's a reason nobody bothers fighting a weaver in a 1v1 these days.

I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

The vast majority of builds in WvW roaming come to you. I find no need of the port to. The Ranger is the only exception.

Since the changes to Repeater Mali7 is easy to build. All you need is around 20 percent precision (When repeater added i tweaked my build so as to achieve that). Malicious intent is one of 7. A single full iteration of #3 will generally add 5 more. It does not take long. You can generally get 2 full loads of malice in the time it takes that steal to come off cooldown on a core build. Mixed with Mercy thats a whole lot more INI using attacks.

Prior to changes I did not use DE for mali 7. I relied on the might add from FFe as this maxxed might in a hurry but with the add of even the odds that might add was redundant.

The nature of the stolen items in DE compared to Core is what puts it over the top in a Condition build and NOT that Mali7 IMO. The only weak steal is the mesmer one. The Necro , revenant and Engineer steals are at the top of the heap. The utilities also better suit Condi and in particular Binding shadows. A cast of that is a death sentence for many.

The other reason cited for taking TR was the Boon theft. Again I do not find this as important to a p/d condition build. There are only a small number of boons that when on an enemy give issues and the ease at which they reapplied does not garner that great an advantage when you do steal them. Boon theft is much more important to a power build so you can get that damage spike in while the protective boons down.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

The ones that come to you, burst you down. You need the steal to get the drop on them.

Since the changes to Repeater Mali7 is easy to build. All you need is around 20 percent precision (When repeater added i tweaked my build so as to achieve that). Malicious intent is one of 7. A single full iteration of #3 will generally add 5 more. It does not take long. You can generally get 2 full loads of malice in the time it takes that steal to come off cooldown on a core build. Mixed with Mercy thats a whole lot more INI using attacks.

Trouble here is getting repeater in the first place (why was I calling it unload?).

Prior to changes I did not use DE for mali 7. I relied on the might add from FFe as this maxxed might in a hurry but with the add of even the odds that might add was redundant.

The nature of the stolen items in DE compared to Core is what puts it over the top in a Condition build and NOT that Mali7 IMO. The only weak steal is the mesmer one. The Necro , revenant and Engineer steals are at the top of the heap. The utilities also better suit Condi and in particular Binding shadows. A cast of that is a death sentence for many.

Actually, Id say the stolen skills are a lot worse on DE. You dont get Consume Plasma. You dont get Blinding Tuft. No Skull Fear. And the Necro and Revenant steals would be nice, except thats the exact classes that you dont want to face when playing condi thief. Necro just kills you with your own condis, and Revenant just resistances through them.

The other reason cited for taking TR was the Boon theft. Again I do not find this as important to a p/d condition build. There are only a small number of boons that when on an enemy give issues and the ease at which they reapplied does not garner that great an advantage when you do steal them. Boon theft is much more important to a power build so you can get that damage spike in while the protective boons down.

Resistance is a pretty big one tbh.

Def viable condi build using rifle and P/D and I have the salty whispers to prove it lol.

From the replies here I'm > @babazhook.6805 said:

Traitlines that do not work well with pure Condi p/d are CS obviously Acro and then Daredevil in that order.

That is what I was thinking. I've already discarded Acro, CS and DD as options. I can't decide which 3 to pick from DE, DA, SA and Trickery though. So many possible combinations.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

Since the changes to Repeater Mali7 is easy to build. All you need is around 20 percent precision (When repeater added i tweaked my build so as to achieve that). Malicious intent is one of 7. A single full iteration of #3 will generally add 5 more. It does not take long. You can generally get 2 full loads of malice in the time it takes that steal to come off cooldown on a core build. Mixed with Mercy thats a whole lot more INI using attacks.

Prior to changes I did not use DE for mali 7. I relied on the might add from FFe as this maxxed might in a hurry but with the add of even the odds that might add was redundant.

The nature of the stolen items in DE compared to Core is what puts it over the top in a Condition build and NOT that Mali7 IMO. The only weak steal is the mesmer one. The Necro , revenant and Engineer steals are at the top of the heap. The utilities also better suit Condi and in particular Binding shadows. A cast of that is a death sentence for many.

The other reason cited for taking TR was the Boon theft. Again I do not find this as important to a p/d condition build. There are only a small number of boons that when on an enemy give issues and the ease at which they reapplied does not garner that great an advantage when you do steal them. Boon theft is much more important to a power build so you can get that damage spike in while the protective boons down.

Are you serious on resistance? you get a steal once every 21 seconds. That the only chance to take resistance. There not many classes that have resistance and they have to have it up when you do your steal. You talk about playing Good players and being unable to use CND on them. No good player is going to throw up resistance when you have your steal ready and there no conditions on them. They throw it up after you apply the conditions. Rev just throws up an alternate source then what does your confusion do ?

What do you steal in Core from a rev? I second of slow? the damage component does not amount to much in a condition build.

To the stolen skills the Only one that is better is Plasma. As I said I can get a Mini plasma every 10 seconds and it actually faster the second time due to Fury kick in. You are not always facing mesmer. Blinding Tuft? That is not important. You state in one post stealth not used and now want blinding tuft? the steal against thief with the DE is the same blind usable twice (4 if in improv) along with Fury which fuels mali 7. There already plenty of stealth in DE. Blinding tuft is not a step up.

Necro and Revenant? The most commonly encountered Necro builds you face are much easier in DE. In fact this deliberately one of the classes I seek out when in DE. Against Rev you get more resistance sources then he does with your stolen item. In any case how the heck does taking TR over DE help here? You fare worse against Necro and rev using TR by a long shot. Your port to on steal against necro is in fact a handicap.

Skull fear? I would rather have the potential to heal 4800 and apply 20 bleeds. You are a condition build apply conditions. This is far more effective then a fear every 21 seconds. (or two if you use improv)

As to ranger....Immob and Superspeed. You can go 4 immobs with 12 seconds superspeed (4 poison also added) which gives you the ability to close. Your steals hit from 1500 so even at his max range with his LB you can hit him. This of course varies depending if you take panic strike/improv/potent. in various combinations.

Engineer? they are never going to stand in that Core steal field. I want the protection and 10 stacks vuln. You mentioned prior that Flickering shadows only on a short period of time. You mix that up time with stolen protection from engie and the protection coming from mali 7 and there a whole lot of uptime on mitigation.

The ele one is also weak in DE but it is not that great in core either. The DE one is better then the core one just because you get multiple uses and the vigor.

To repeater, again I have no issues getting to use it in game. As I stated most classes will close on you.

Again I swapped to core and stuck with it a long time after enhancements to SA and deadly ambition. This was using the TR version. The big miss is not the BT (downgraded in any case) , it is lead attacks. The other reason to take TR is INI but DE has more. Confusion is the third and that just makes you burstier as opposed to being able to applying sustained damage. Burstier fares worse against Necro and rev. They are much more able to deal with bursts of conditions then sustained.

I tried p/d DA/TR 123/DD 222 OR 221 with carrion and Krait runes eith venom and bleed sigil and seemed decent with venom utility,BP and basilisk.Just so used to dash I guess. Is SA that much better than DD for condi p/d?

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

Since the changes to Repeater Mali7 is easy to build. All you need is around 20 percent precision (When repeater added i tweaked my build so as to achieve that). Malicious intent is one of 7. A single full iteration of #3 will generally add 5 more. It does not take long. You can generally get 2 full loads of malice in the time it takes that steal to come off cooldown on a core build. Mixed with Mercy thats a whole lot more INI using attacks.

Prior to changes I did not use DE for mali 7. I relied on the might add from FFe as this maxxed might in a hurry but with the add of even the odds that might add was redundant.

The nature of the stolen items in DE compared to Core is what puts it over the top in a Condition build and NOT that Mali7 IMO. The only weak steal is the mesmer one. The Necro , revenant and Engineer steals are at the top of the heap. The utilities also better suit Condi and in particular Binding shadows. A cast of that is a death sentence for many.

The other reason cited for taking TR was the Boon theft. Again I do not find this as important to a p/d condition build. There are only a small number of boons that when on an enemy give issues and the ease at which they reapplied does not garner that great an advantage when you do steal them. Boon theft is much more important to a power build so you can get that damage spike in while the protective boons down.

Sometimes one steal is all you need. Especially since Runes of Durability and Resistance are quite common, and they dont give resistance for long.

What do you steal in Core from a rev? I second of slow? the damage component does not amount to much in a condition build.

Apparently its around 3 seconds of slow, supposedly its bugged for some reason. Thats more useful than a condi against a build that will just shrug it off.

To the stolen skills the Only one that is better is Plasma. As I said I can get a Mini plasma every 10 seconds and it actually faster the second time due to Fury kick in. You are not always facing mesmer. Blinding Tuft? That is not important. You state in one post stealth not used and now want blinding tuft? the steal against thief with the DE is the same blind usable twice (4 if in improv) along with Fury which fuels mali 7. There already plenty of stealth in DE. Blinding tuft is not a step up.

With a lot more setup and less reliability than just using Consume Plasma. Stealth isnt used much because accessing stealth is a pain in the arse and generally not really achievable. But Blinding Tuft gives it to you for free. Might as well use it to get access to the stealth attack. Its better access to stealth than DE, since you can use it immediately and it doesnt require giving up anything.

Necro and Revenant? The most commonly encountered Necro builds you face are much easier in DE. In fact this deliberately one of the classes I seek out when in DE. Against Rev you get more resistance sources then he does with your stolen item. In any case how the heck does taking TR over DE help here? You fare worse against Necro and rev using TR by a long shot. Your port to on steal against necro is in fact a handicap.

The most commonly encountered Necro builds are the ones built to hard-counter condi builds. As I said, blast them with a condi-bomb, and they immediately retrasnfer it back to you and kill you with it. They also take your M7 Boons and turn them all into conditions, killing you with it. Trickery however lets you use Skull Fear for the, well, fear. Force them to have a stunbreak, and if they dont, your condis will tick down before they can transfer them to you. That, + not having a ton of boons they corrupt, makes you fare better. Against, Slow does more against power Rev than torment, and you lose against condi rev anyway.

Skull fear? I would rather have the potential to heal 4800 and apply 20 bleeds. You are a condition build apply conditions. This is far more effective then a fear every 21 seconds. (or two if you use improv)

Then those 20 bleeds get thrown back onto you, and you die since you lack condi-clears. CC is more valuable than more damage in a matchup where that damage will be killing you, not them. Though ideally you would just avoid Necros in the first place, as I said, they, alongside Revenants and Guardians just happen to be your 3 worst matchups.

As to ranger....Immob and Superspeed. You can go 4 immobs with 12 seconds superspeed (4 poison also added) which gives you the ability to close. Your steals hit from 1500 so even at his max range with his LB you can hit him. This of course varies depending if you take panic strike/improv/potent. in various combinations.

Their max range is actually 1700-ish, more if theyre uphills. Ranger projectiles dont have a hard range cap, they just travel in an arc. And even with Superspeed, youre gonna need like, what, almost 4 full seconds to run up to them? If they cant kill you in those 4 seconds, theyre probably AFK.

Engineer? they are never going to stand in that Core steal field. I want the protection and 10 stacks vuln. You mentioned prior that Flickering shadows only on a short period of time. You mix that up time with stolen protection from engie and the protection coming from mali 7 and there a whole lot of uptime on mitigation.

Well, other than if you use immobilise. But youre right, generally they wont stand in it. The problem is the other version isnt great either. Especially on Engineer, who currently clears condis quite well too, and has projectile denial. As for the uptime on mitigation, Flickering Shadow wont be active very much, and the others get ripped or corrupted. You will find yourself with not that much mitigation very often.

The ele one is also weak in DE but it is not that great in core either. The DE one is better then the core one just because you get multiple uses and the vigor.

Chill is pretty brutal on Eles, it affects their elemental attunements. Not exactly top notch, but quite potent.

To repeater, again I have no issues getting to use it in game. As I stated most classes will close on you.

And as I said, the ones that close on you burst you down. They are the ones to get the drop on you. You wont have much success trying to skill 3 into repeater against a Rev who immobilised you and is now killing you. Or on another thief who jumped on you with backstab, feared you, and is going to match your skill 3 with Shadowshots. Or on a Warrior who is going to keep CCing you. Or on a Mesmer who does the same thing as thief, but probably kills you. Even Weaver wont be great, because theyre gonna evade spam to prevent your skill 3. You need to burst. DE hurts your burst.

Again I swapped to core and stuck with it a long time after enhancements to SA and deadly ambition. This was using the TR version. The big miss is not the BT (downgraded in any case) , it is lead attacks. The other reason to take TR is INI but DE has more. Confusion is the third and that just makes you burstier as opposed to being able to applying sustained damage. Burstier fares worse against Necro and rev. They are much more able to deal with bursts of conditions then sustained.

Thats the point. Being burstier is the way you win. Youre not going to win the sustained fight, because other classes either burst you down or trivialise your conditions.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

Since the changes to Repeater Mali7 is easy to build. All you need is around 20 percent precision (When repeater added i tweaked my build so as to achieve that). Malicious intent is one of 7. A single full iteration of #3 will generally add 5 more. It does not take long. You can generally get 2 full loads of malice in the time it takes that steal to come off cooldown on a core build. Mixed with Mercy thats a whole lot more INI using attacks.

Prior to changes I did not use DE for mali 7. I relied on the might add from FFe as this maxxed might in a hurry but with the add of even the odds that might add was redundant.

The nature of the stolen items in DE compared to Core is what puts it over the top in a Condition build and NOT that Mali7 IMO. The only weak steal is the mesmer one. The Necro , revenant and Engineer steals are at the top of the heap. The utilities also better suit Condi and in particular Binding shadows. A cast of that is a death sentence for many.

The other reason cited for taking TR was the Boon theft. Again I do not find this as important to a p/d condition build. There are only a small number of boons that when on an enemy give issues and the ease at which they reapplied does not garner that great an advantage when you do steal them. Boon theft is much more important to a power build so you can get that damage spike in while the protective boons down.

What do you steal in Core from a rev? I second of slow? the damage component does not amount to much in a condition build.

To the stolen skills the Only one that is better is Plasma. As I said I can get a Mini plasma every 10 seconds and it actually faster the second time due to Fury kick in. You are not always facing mesmer. Blinding Tuft? That is not important. You state in one post stealth not used and now want blinding tuft? the steal against thief with the DE is the same blind usable twice (4 if in improv) along with Fury which fuels mali 7. There already plenty of stealth in DE. Blinding tuft is not a step up.

Necro and Revenant? The most commonly encountered Necro builds you face are much easier in DE. In fact this deliberately one of the classes I seek out when in DE. Against Rev you get more resistance sources then he does with your stolen item. In any case how the heck does taking TR over DE help here? You fare worse against Necro and rev using TR by a long shot. Your port to on steal against necro is in fact a handicap.

Skull fear? I would rather have the potential to heal 4800 and apply 20 bleeds. You are a condition build apply conditions. This is far more effective then a fear every 21 seconds. (or two if you use improv)

As to ranger....Immob and Superspeed. You can go 4 immobs with 12 seconds superspeed (4 poison also added) which gives you the ability to close. Your steals hit from 1500 so even at his max range with his LB you can hit him. This of course varies depending if you take panic strike/improv/potent. in various combinations.

Engineer? they are never going to stand in that Core steal field. I want the protection and 10 stacks vuln. You mentioned prior that Flickering shadows only on a short period of time. You mix that up time with stolen protection from engie and the protection coming from mali 7 and there a whole lot of uptime on mitigation.

The ele one is also weak in DE but it is not that great in core either. The DE one is better then the core one just because you get multiple uses and the vigor.

To repeater, again I have no issues getting to use it in game. As I stated most classes will close on you.

Again I swapped to core and stuck with it a long time after enhancements to SA and deadly ambition. This was using the TR version. The big miss is not the BT (downgraded in any case) , it is lead attacks. The other reason to take TR is INI but DE has more. Confusion is the third and that just makes you burstier as opposed to being able to applying sustained damage. Burstier fares worse against Necro and rev. They are much more able to deal with bursts of conditions then sustained.

You spoke about engineers clearing conditions. When you have burst rather then sustained it easier for them. You speak to all the downsides about projectile denial etc and without understanding taking trickery does NOT change that. nor does it diminish cleanses. Added to that the steal in DE is not a projectile.

You claim you are not going to win a fight? I win fights every time I am in the game. I would not play a build where I could not win a fight.

I win more fights in DE due to the fact it has more access to stealth and can survive longer in a match and when roaming has ways to escape outnumbered situations. When I was in TR spec I died more and would only win more against low cleanse specs. The more cleanses they got the less likely TR version was to win.

You speak of burst in the TR spec. There a single condition add that lasts 3 seconds. It is confusion. Good players do not keep attacking when they have confusion on.. To lead attacks yes that adds damage but I also have far more might on an ongoing basis. The necro steal (20 bleeds) is Burstier. The malicious sneak attack (5 bleeds 5 torments) is burstier . 5 4 seconds base bleeds and 5 torment (1 second base) will do more damage then 6 3 second confusion stacks. The stolen items add plenty of burst specs and have the flexibility of using in one go as in apply 20 bleeds right off at max range or timing so that you can apply 5 bleeds, wait on cleanse apply 15 more. DE can reset the steal. TR can not.

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I tried p/d DA/TR 123/DD 222 OR 221 with carrion and Krait runes eith venom and bleed sigil and seemed decent with venom utility,BP and basilisk.Just so used to dash I guess. Is SA that much better than DD for condi p/d?

Here are the problems I had with DD. This was something i Noted before the DE spec which pushed me to a DA/SA/tr build.

The skills as designed just do not help the p/d condition spec enough as too many go to waste due to range. People using DD for conditions generally wanted Impaling lotus. I found that Counterproductive because when the enemy at melee range, i did not want to dodge them , i wanted to use #3 which after your port away put you out of range of the impaling lotus. Uncatchable out of TR was much the same , you are often dodging at range and those drop serving no purpose. (With the repeater add this even the downsides of DD damage wise manifest even more.)

Impaling also received a number of nerfs which compounded the problem. Some went the unhindered combat route and while that makes you more survivable damage is even less. I went to DA/TR/SA under the old SA and DA and noticed an immediate increase in damage out.

Since that time there were changes (i used to use trappers respite as example) including the DE add. I tinkered around with variations and settled on DE/DA/SA. I had also tried to stay core and tried a DA/DE/TR version (which is fine if you not big on stealth and the SA sustain and is likely my "second" choice) and SA/TR/DE which gives up deadly ambition and improv/potent which I did not really like losing.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:I agree with @UNOwen.7132, played some condi p/d after SA rework and I think DE is less reliable than other versions. It feels like people try to add DE for the sake of M7, but for that to comfortably proc, you should add some precision to the mix to actually crit for malice gain. Losing a gap closer on steal also hurts your dmg capabilities unless your opponent wants to sit on your face anyways. Basically it feels like picking DE allows your opponent to decide how he wants to lead the fight, which is meh.

Since the changes to Repeater Mali7 is easy to build. All you need is around 20 percent precision (When repeater added i tweaked my build so as to achieve that). Malicious intent is one of 7. A single full iteration of #3 will generally add 5 more. It does not take long. You can generally get 2 full loads of malice in the time it takes that steal to come off cooldown on a core build. Mixed with Mercy thats a whole lot more INI using attacks.

Prior to changes I did not use DE for mali 7. I relied on the might add from FFe as this maxxed might in a hurry but with the add of even the odds that might add was redundant.

The nature of the stolen items in DE compared to Core is what puts it over the top in a Condition build and NOT that Mali7 IMO. The only weak steal is the mesmer one. The Necro , revenant and Engineer steals are at the top of the heap. The utilities also better suit Condi and in particular Binding shadows. A cast of that is a death sentence for many.

The other reason cited for taking TR was the Boon theft. Again I do not find this as important to a p/d condition build. There are only a small number of boons that when on an enemy give issues and the ease at which they reapplied does not garner that great an advantage when you do steal them. Boon theft is much more important to a power build so you can get that damage spike in while the protective boons down.

What do you steal in Core from a rev? I second of slow? the damage component does not amount to much in a condition build.

To the stolen skills the Only one that is better is Plasma. As I said I can get a Mini plasma every 10 seconds and it actually faster the second time due to Fury kick in. You are not always facing mesmer. Blinding Tuft? That is not important. You state in one post stealth not used and now want blinding tuft? the steal against thief with the DE is the same blind usable twice (4 if in improv) along with Fury which fuels mali 7. There already plenty of stealth in DE. Blinding tuft is not a step up.

Necro and Revenant? The most commonly encountered Necro builds you face are much easier in DE. In fact this deliberately one of the classes I seek out when in DE. Against Rev you get more resistance sources then he does with your stolen item. In any case how the heck does taking TR over DE help here? You fare worse against Necro and rev using TR by a long shot. Your port to on steal against necro is in fact a handicap.

Skull fear? I would rather have the potential to heal 4800 and apply 20 bleeds. You are a condition build apply conditions. This is far more effective then a fear every 21 seconds. (or two if you use improv)

As to ranger....Immob and Superspeed. You can go 4 immobs with 12 seconds superspeed (4 poison also added) which gives you the ability to close. Your steals hit from 1500 so even at his max range with his LB you can hit him. This of course varies depending if you take panic strike/improv/potent. in various combinations.

Engineer? they are never going to stand in that Core steal field. I want the protection and 10 stacks vuln. You mentioned prior that Flickering shadows only on a short period of time. You mix that up time with stolen protection from engie and the protection coming from mali 7 and there a whole lot of uptime on mitigation.

The ele one is also weak in DE but it is not that great in core either. The DE one is better then the core one just because you get multiple uses and the vigor.

To repeater, again I have no issues getting to use it in game. As I stated most classes will close on you.

Again I swapped to core and stuck with it a long time after enhancements to SA and deadly ambition. This was using the TR version. The big miss is not the BT (downgraded in any case) , it is lead attacks. The other reason to take TR is INI but DE has more. Confusion is the third and that just makes you burstier as opposed to being able to applying sustained damage. Burstier fares worse against Necro and rev. They are much more able to deal with bursts of conditions then sustained.

Only if they run Elixir C. Which they generally dont. Otherwise they have a much easier time clearing sustained condi damage than burst condi damage thanks to Prismatic Converter. And anti-corrosion plating if they play that version. Projectile Denial is something Trickery doesnt help with much, but you still get burst damage out of Bewildering Ambush, and you have more options for up-close attempts.

You claim you are not going to win a fight? I win fights every time I am in the game. I would not play a build where I could not win a fight.

Against a competent necro, or a competent Revenant, you will not win a fight, yes. They crush you. Like, really easily.

I win more fights in DE due to the fact it has more access to stealth and can survive longer in a match and when roaming has ways to escape outnumbered situations. When I was in TR spec I died more and would only win more against low cleanse specs. The more cleanses they got the less likely TR version was to win.

DE only has more access to stealth if it gives up valuable utility skills. When it comes to surviving or running away, Stealth is far less valuable than, say, Daggerstorm. Sure you survive longer in theory, but in practice you get bursted down before you can get your survivability online, and your damage simply gets outpaced.

You speak of burst in the TR spec. There a single condition add that lasts 3 seconds. It is confusion. Good players do not keep attacking when they have confusion on.. To lead attacks yes that adds damage but I also have far more might on an ongoing basis. The necro steal (20 bleeds) is Burstier. The malicious sneak attack (5 bleeds 5 torments) is burstier . 5 4 seconds base bleeds and 5 torment (1 second base) will do more damage then 6 3 second confusion stacks. The stolen items add plenty of burst specs and have the flexibility of using in one go as in apply 20 bleeds right off at max range or timing so that you can apply 5 bleeds, wait on cleanse apply 15 more. DE can reset the steal. TR can not.

Its not just the confusion. Its the teleport. On Trickery, you steal, skill 3, then use repeater, well, repeatedly. Quick burst the enemy doesnt have much time to react to. On the other hand, if youre using DE, thats not an option. You have to walk up to the enemy, hope they dont stop you in any way, and then skill 3 and repeater slowly. Unless you use Infiltrators Signet, but thats giving up a lot. And what do you gain? Stolen skills that apply condi to builds that make sure that that condi is never going to kill them, but instead is going to kill you? Sustain on a build that cant sustain against any competent build? None of that helps when youre a burst spec that cant burst.