Escape Artist and Protected Phantasms are unusable in any gamemode — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Escape Artist and Protected Phantasms are unusable in any gamemode

Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited May 3, 2020 in Mesmer

This trait: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escape_Artist
There is no reason to take this as it stands right now, make it so that taking this trait:

  • reduces recharge of mirror images, decoy, phantasmal defender and phantasmal disenchanter by 20%.
  • gives clones 2s of protection when shattered.
    This way it won't become that much of a powercreep (basically it makes never-used utilities a bit more usable). It also makes your clones not die to any AoE.

This trait: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protected_Phantasms

  • If this trait needs to give phantasms some kind of "defensive boon" no matter what, make it 4 seconds of protection and 2 second of stability so we can use it with Persistence of Memory.
  • Otherwise if this can get reworked, make it the old Persisting Images: phantasms have 20% more health and spawn with retaliation for 6s.

Comments

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    Never used utilities? Phantasmal Disenchanter/Defender are used by Power Chrono's because 2x their effect is actually decent.

    That said, a CDR trait for the Clone/Phantasm utilities would be neat and it makes sense for it to be in that specialization.

    While were on the subject of improving traits, it would also be nice for Duelist's Discipline to give a flat 20% CDR to pistol skills like every other weapon trait instead of this janky proc from interrupting targets...

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    What's an Escape Artist? Is that some new Lo Mein recipe?

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Never used utilities? Phantasmal Disenchanter/Defender are used by Power Chrono's because 2x their effect is actually decent.

    I didn't know raid Chronomancer used Mirror Images and Phantasmal Disenchanter, but I'm more than sure Phantasmal Defender is never used.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Never used utilities? Phantasmal Disenchanter/Defender are used by Power Chrono's because 2x their effect is actually decent.

    I didn't know raid Chronomancer used Mirror Images and Phantasmal Disenchanter, but I'm more than sure Phantasmal Defender is never used.

    Some Power DPS builds use Disenchanter and Mirror (Disenchanter is even optional in Snowcrows builds)

    Defender is an alternative to Disenchanter for more burst.

    Bearing in mind, that Chronophantasma + Signet of the Ether + Continuum Split allows for rapid usage of phantasm skills (Essentially, when used optimally, you can triple cast your phantasms) which then also attack twice each.

    That said, given that this functionality is tied specifically to Chrono (Due to Continuum Split and Chronophantasma) it'd still be nice to get trait support for the utilities for Core/Mirage/Whatever next expac's E-Spec is.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Defender is an alternative to Disenchanter for more burst.

    WAT ? how come defender has more burst than disenchanter ?

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Defender is an alternative to Disenchanter for more burst.

    WAT ? how come defender has more burst than disenchanter ?

    Because of its 500% damage amplifier?

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Because of its 500% damage amplifier?

    I am not sure about it. 500% is misleading. Because you should consider power coefficient too. 40% power coefficient on defender vs 100% on disenchanter. + of that, disenchanter does his attack from range and instantly, while defender needs some time to get to his target and use his blocks... In my experience disenchanter has a better burst because it does it faster. But I guess defender might do better vs group of mobs...

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Because of its 500% damage amplifier?

    I am not sure about it. 500% is misleading. Because you should consider power coefficient too. 40% power coefficient on defender vs 100% on disenchanter. + of that, disenchanter does his attack from range and instantly, while defender needs some time to get to his target and use his blocks... In my experience disenchanter has a better burst because it does it faster. But I guess defender might do better vs group of mobs...

    This dude speaks the truth, Disechanter lands more dmg period, you gotta remember it bounces! Realistically both suck, one just sucks more than the other.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Because of its 500% damage amplifier?

    I am not sure about it. 500% is misleading. Because you should consider power coefficient too. 40% power coefficient on defender vs 100% on disenchanter. + of that, disenchanter does his attack from range and instantly, while defender needs some time to get to his target and use his blocks... In my experience disenchanter has a better burst because it does it faster. But I guess defender might do better vs group of mobs...

    Even with power coefficient, the fact that it increases its damage 5x makes it do more burst damage.

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    This dude speaks the truth, Disechanter lands more dmg period, you gotta remember it bounces! Realistically both suck, one just sucks more than the other.

    Disenchanter does more overall DPS.

    Hence why I stated Defender does more BURST damage. Which it does. A fully stacked explosion from Defender does more damage than a shot from a Disenchanter.

    Disenchanter wins in overall DPS because of its shorter CD (So long as enemies don't have Boons which cripple its damage) but for kicking out the most damage in a single cast, Defender does more.

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Because of its 500% damage amplifier?

    I am not sure about it. 500% is misleading. Because you should consider power coefficient too. 40% power coefficient on defender vs 100% on disenchanter. + of that, disenchanter does his attack from range and instantly, while defender needs some time to get to his target and use his blocks... In my experience disenchanter has a better burst because it does it faster. But I guess defender might do better vs group of mobs...

    Even with power coefficient, the fact that it increases its damage 5x makes it do more burst damage.

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    This dude speaks the truth, Disechanter lands more dmg period, you gotta remember it bounces! Realistically both suck, one just sucks more than the other.

    Disenchanter does more overall DPS.

    Hence why I stated Defender does more BURST damage. Which it does. A fully stacked explosion from Defender does more damage than a shot from a Disenchanter.

    Disenchanter wins in overall DPS because of its shorter CD (So long as enemies don't have Boons which cripple its damage) but for kicking out the most damage in a single cast, Defender does more.

    My man, I run from PvE like it's the plague and I can still tell you Disenchanter lands more DPS overall.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2020

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    Realistically both suck, one just sucks more than the other.

    agreed...but defender is much worse imo.. has ridiculously high cd, useless taunt and bizzare way of doing damage. 20% cd reduction is the minimum that defender should get... Better get reworked though. Disenchanter is good imo. I actually like that skill, it is the only phantasm that does his damage without problems (stupid swordsmen and berserkers freakin out sometimes for no reason)

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Even with power coefficient, the fact that it increases its damage 5x makes it do more burst damage.

    Did you check it with 25 stacks of might ? Now I want to check it on golem lol

  • ArlAlt.1630ArlAlt.1630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2020

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    Realistically both suck, one just sucks more than the other.

    agreed...but defender is much worse imo.. has ridiculously high cd, useless taunt and bizzare way of doing damage. 20% cd reduction is the minimum that defender should get... Better get reworked though. Disenchanter is good though. I actually like that skill, it is the only phantasm that does his damage

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Even with power coefficient, the fact that it increases its damage 5x makes it do more burst damage.

    Did you check it with 25 stacks of might ? Now I want to check it on golem lol

    I honestly feel like I walked into a PvE discussion without having any intention to. You kids have me at a disadvantage, I'm not @Pyroatheist.9031 so have mercy..
    I can show you the way if you're talking about killing other ppl, but fighting NCPs is where I draw the line.

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    My man, I run from PvE like it's the plague and I can still tell you Disenchanter lands more DPS overall.

    That's literally what I said.

    Disenchanter does more DPS.

    Defender does a bigger burst.

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Even with power coefficient, the fact that it increases its damage 5x makes it do more burst damage.

    Did you check it with 25 stacks of might ? Now I want to check it on golem lol

    Even with anything you like, it still comes out ahead.

    Full Berserker gear + food + writ + Scholar + all 5 power infusion + every buff in the game + 25 Might + 25 Bloodlust for 4147 power =

    Disenchanter does 5295 base damage.

    Defender does 2068 base damage.

    Meaning that before factoring other sources of damage amplification (Such as traits like Vicious Expression and Egotism) Defender with just its own 500% damage amp is looking at 10340 damage.

    Which results in a higher burst than Disenchanter's 5k damage.

    Of course, Disenchanter does more DPS because it has half the cooldown so it would do 10590 base damage per cast of Defender.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭
    edited May 2, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    My man, I run from PvE like it's the plague and I can still tell you Disenchanter lands more DPS overall.

    That's literally what I said.

    Disenchanter does more DPS.

    Defender does a bigger burst.

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Even with power coefficient, the fact that it increases its damage 5x makes it do more burst damage.

    Did you check it with 25 stacks of might ? Now I want to check it on golem lol

    Even with anything you like, it still comes out ahead.

    Full Berserker gear + food + writ + Scholar + all 5 power infusion + every buff in the game + 25 Might + 25 Bloodlust for 4147 power =

    Disenchanter does 5295 base damage.

    Defender does 2068 base damage.

    Meaning that before factoring other sources of damage amplification (Such as traits like Vicious Expression and Egotism) Defender with just its own 500% damage amp is looking at 10340 damage.

    Which results in a higher burst than Disenchanter's 5k damage.

    Of course, Disenchanter does more DPS because it has half the cooldown so it would do 10590 base damage per cast of Defender.

    I just checked. Still disenchanter does better at bursting. It is litterally the fastest phantasm (maybe gs4 is a little faster), disenchanter is really good at bursting. Defender has the potential to do more damage at single cast, but that damage is really slow... so nothing to do with bursting especially with chronophantasma. By the time my defender done doing damage and became a clone it was already at 14 sec cd, meaning he did his all blocking and running for a long while. 2nd I actually struggled to pull of that 500%... I might be not the best at using defender, but I couldn't find a single enemy that could attack my defender 5 times before it explodes, so the only option was to find a group of stacked mobs and use defender on them. It didn't work every time, but in the end I could get 5 blocks and pull out huge aoe explosion... Still it was very far from being burst damage..
    Conclusion:
    More damage at single cast ? yes and no... it has a potential on doing more damage in groups of mobs (or if there is a boss that attacks really really REALLY fast). Burst damage ? - No ! (in other words single cast doesn't mean burst damage)

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This guy who made this trait should be fired tbh.
    If they would made a description for it "does nothing" it would be pretty much the same.
    For this plebs arguing what is better in pve (because in pvp they suck) - look at snowcrows ? (spoiler: there is only disenchanter)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2020

    I tried running defender and its damage was so pathetic that landing autoattacks did more, I NEVER seen it land a good hit, wouldnt be suprised if the damage bonus was bugged or had ICD or was 1 per person or something becouse even in fractals against multiple enemies it hits for 2-3k

    @Odik.4587 F

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2020

    @ArlAlt.1630 said:
    I honestly feel like I walked into a PvE discussion without having any intention to.

    I just want Escape Artist to be usable in some way, I also didn't expect it to turn into a PvE thread.

    F

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 @ArlsTipsierAlt.9138

    I love how there is absolutely nothing to discuss about this joke of a trait, so you guys started trolling the thread.

  • @Tayga.3192 said:
    @Leonidrex.5649 @ArlsTipsierAlt.9138

    I love how there is absolutely nothing to discuss about this joke of a trait, so you guys started trolling the thread.

    We were gonna troll regardless, it's just that usually there's some comments with pros and cons in between. However this trait just doesn't give anyone much to work with.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    I love how there is absolutely nothing to discuss about this joke of a trait, so you guys started trolling the thread.

    I am quite sure that all mesmer community will agree that you are absolutely right about the uselessness of that trait, and the solution that you propose is quite intelligent. There is much to discuss actually, we could go on and brainstorm on other ways the trait could be reworked... But I guess we are so discouraged because of the things that happens to mesmer and especially having absolutely no reply from devs. So anything we say here is the same as crying into nothingness. I don't believe anyone ever cares about us sadly.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    we should state all the ways we DON'T want it changed to, since they always do reworks that nobody has asked for (see chrono tradeoff)

    // Yanim

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I also added Protected Phantasms to the list.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    change escape artist to shattered strength (the old trait that gave might for every clone shattered).

    // Yanim

  • @Tayga.3192 said:
    This trait: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Escape_Artist
    There is no reason to take this as it stands right now, make it so that taking this trait:

    • reduces recharge of mirror images, decoy, phantasmal defender and phantasmal disenchanter by 20%.
    • gives clones 2s of protection when shattered.
      This way it won't become that much of a powercreep (basically it makes never-used utilities a bit more usable). It also makes your clones not die to any AoE.

    This trait: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protected_Phantasms

    • If this trait needs to give phantasms some kind of "defensive boon" no matter what, make it 4 seconds of protection and 2 second of stability so we can use it with Persistence of Memory.
    • Otherwise if this can get reworked, make it the old Persisting Images: phantasms have 20% more health and spawn with retaliation for 6s.

    i actually find protected phantasms very usefeul when i'm running persistence of memory on chrono :/