Suggestion for some clarity on how conditions should work. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Suggestion for some clarity on how conditions should work.

Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

So to not let it die as a comment in a random thread,

@Dagger.2035 said:
Vitality should be thought of as the primary defensive stat and it provides the best defense against both Power and Condition damage. Toughness and Healing Power should be considered minor defensive stats which give you more sustain over time.

If someone chooses to run high Toughness to have an advantage against Power builds then they should be weaker against Condition damage.

If we are going to refactor anything I wish they would have changed how condition damage stacks work. A long time ago some suggested that all condition stacks should do the same damage and Condition damage just increases the amount of stacks applied.

This change serves two purposes. First, it simplifies damage calculations on the server since you don’t need the enemy player’s stats to calculate the damage. Second, it allows you to see how much damage you will receive since high Condition damage builds will apply more stacks.

So the idea just helps with clarity, like how many times hove you wondered are those burns going to kill me or they do nothing and end up wasting cleanse on power guard.
And when we look at condition damage/Malice it was probably supposed to be complimentary stat like ferocity, but somehow got rolled up as power replacement.
So having it show how much damage it will do would help allot.

Comments

  • Tao.5096Tao.5096 Member ✭✭✭

    What?

    If someone chooses to run high Toughness to have an advantage against Power builds then they should be weaker against Condition damage.

    And he is?
    His Health pool is smaller since he has no additional Vitality stats and thus he's weaker to condition damage...

    If we are going to refactor anything I wish they would have changed how condition damage stacks work. A long time ago some suggested that all condition stacks should do the same damage and Condition damage just increases the amount of stacks applied.

    That's plain stupid...
    Conditions deliver different damage due to several reasons - their availability and their side effects e.g. Poison has -33% to healing effectiveness or Torment deals 2x condition damage upon moving.

    Just because Guardian is oriented solely around Burn condition, doesn't give a reason to rework the entire system on how it works.

    If Burn damage is the issue - and the issue is actually on high stacks - then limit the stacks to 5 on players only.
    It will still be effective and nice in PvE, but in PvP it won't eat 8k hp or more per tick (and you can't cleanse it).

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tao.5096 said:
    What?

    If someone chooses to run high Toughness to have an advantage against Power builds then they should be weaker against Condition damage.

    And he is?
    His Health pool is smaller since he has no additional Vitality stats and thus he's weaker to condition damage...

    If we are going to refactor anything I wish they would have changed how condition damage stacks work. A long time ago some suggested that all condition stacks should do the same damage and Condition damage just increases the amount of stacks applied.

    That's plain stupid...
    Conditions deliver different damage due to several reasons - their availability and their side effects e.g. Poison has -33% to healing effectiveness or Torment deals 2x condition damage upon moving.

    Just because Guardian is oriented solely around Burn condition, doesn't give a reason to rework the entire system on how it works.

    If Burn damage is the issue - and the issue is actually on high stacks - then limit the stacks to 5 on players only.
    It will still be effective and nice in PvE, but in PvP it won't eat 8k hp or more per tick (and you can't cleanse it).

    I think he meant that 1 stack of poison does the same damage from any source and when you have condition damage you get more stacks of poison. Now you get multiple stacks of poison that that do nothing without condition damage, but with the suggestion lets say poison does 50 damage per tick and without condition damage you get 1 applied, but with condition damage in thresholds for lets say 500 of the stat you get 5 x 50 damage for 1000 you get 10 x 50 damage.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    I think if you apply a condition and gain condition damage while that condi is still there, it hits for more. How do you implement this to the new system?

    Also the suggested system is discrete. How would it show 10 extra condition damage? What about 1 extra condition damage?

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    I think if you apply a condition and gain condition damage while that condi is still there, it hits for more. How do you implement this to the new system?

    Also the suggested system is discrete. How would it show 10 extra condition damage? What about 1 extra condition damage?

    You gain it only for the next application, done deal you don't get to hit harder in the past with power. The current way it works is nonsense i stabbed you, popped some steroids got stronger and that somehow made the wound bigger in the past.
    The condition damage stat values should probably be tied to the thresholds so you slot an item and know that you will add x amount of condition stacks just by looking at it.
    The game as a whole needs more clarity.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    I think if you apply a condition and gain condition damage while that condi is still there, it hits for more. How do you implement this to the new system?

    Also the suggested system is discrete. How would it show 10 extra condition damage? What about 1 extra condition damage?

    You gain it only for the next application, done deal you don't get to hit harder in the past with power. The current way it works is nonsense i stabbed you, popped some steroids got stronger and that somehow made the wound bigger in the past.
    The condition damage stat values should probably be tied to the thresholds so you slot an item and know that you will add x amount of condition stacks just by looking at it.
    The game as a whole needs more clarity.

    this works both ways, If I lose might and condi is still on the damage goes down, and more importantly when you cleanse vulnerability the damage goes down, If anything its making conditions more reasonable then power. Its not like holo that peaks at 25might and 1shots you, you actually have to maintain buffs/debuffs to have the damage you want.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    I think if you apply a condition and gain condition damage while that condi is still there, it hits for more. How do you implement this to the new system?

    Also the suggested system is discrete. How would it show 10 extra condition damage? What about 1 extra condition damage?

    You gain it only for the next application, done deal you don't get to hit harder in the past with power. The current way it works is nonsense i stabbed you, popped some steroids got stronger and that somehow made the wound bigger in the past.
    The condition damage stat values should probably be tied to the thresholds so you slot an item and know that you will add x amount of condition stacks just by looking at it.
    The game as a whole needs more clarity.

    this works both ways, If I lose might and condi is still on the damage goes down, and more importantly when you cleanse vulnerability the damage goes down, If anything its making conditions more reasonable then power. Its not like holo that peaks at 25might and 1shots you, you actually have to maintain buffs/debuffs to have the damage you want.

    Yes lack of consistency is so good for the game /s. How many people do you think know that conditions damage stacks after the fact, and how many think that you stack might you hit someone and it does its damage. And don't what about holo, the explosives trait line applies power damage like a lot of passive condition traits, "your next hit does bonus 3k damage, doesn't matter if its low telegraph or instant cast".

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    I think if you apply a condition and gain condition damage while that condi is still there, it hits for more. How do you implement this to the new system?

    Also the suggested system is discrete. How would it show 10 extra condition damage? What about 1 extra condition damage?

    You gain it only for the next application, done deal you don't get to hit harder in the past with power. The current way it works is nonsense i stabbed you, popped some steroids got stronger and that somehow made the wound bigger in the past.
    The condition damage stat values should probably be tied to the thresholds so you slot an item and know that you will add x amount of condition stacks just by looking at it.
    The game as a whole needs more clarity.

    this works both ways, If I lose might and condi is still on the damage goes down, and more importantly when you cleanse vulnerability the damage goes down, If anything its making conditions more reasonable then power. Its not like holo that peaks at 25might and 1shots you, you actually have to maintain buffs/debuffs to have the damage you want.

    Yes lack of consistency is so good for the game /s. How many people do you think know that conditions damage stacks after the fact, and how many think that you stack might you hit someone and it does its damage. And don't what about holo, the explosives trait line applies power damage like a lot of passive condition traits, "your next hit does bonus 3k damage, doesn't matter if its low telegraph or instant cast".

    dunno, how many people know that mesmer stealth doesnt stack with thief stealth
    or that daze overrites stun ( learned that today btw )
    how many people know that shroud reduces dmg by 50%? its not said anywhere in the tooltip.
    how many know that weakness glancing hit removes crit? its not said anywhere
    If you paid attention during gameplay as condi build you would have quickly notice if how it works, similar how I quickly noticed that mesmer stealth doesnt work with thief stealth. After I started playing condi it was the first thing I asked myself. Do I need to apply might/weakness and then apply condi and it doesnt matter if they dissapear or do I have to keep them through entire duration.
    Knowledge, gather it and improve yourself.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    I think if you apply a condition and gain condition damage while that condi is still there, it hits for more. How do you implement this to the new system?

    Also the suggested system is discrete. How would it show 10 extra condition damage? What about 1 extra condition damage?

    You gain it only for the next application, done deal you don't get to hit harder in the past with power. The current way it works is nonsense i stabbed you, popped some steroids got stronger and that somehow made the wound bigger in the past.
    The condition damage stat values should probably be tied to the thresholds so you slot an item and know that you will add x amount of condition stacks just by looking at it.
    The game as a whole needs more clarity.

    this works both ways, If I lose might and condi is still on the damage goes down, and more importantly when you cleanse vulnerability the damage goes down, If anything its making conditions more reasonable then power. Its not like holo that peaks at 25might and 1shots you, you actually have to maintain buffs/debuffs to have the damage you want.

    Yes lack of consistency is so good for the game /s. How many people do you think know that conditions damage stacks after the fact, and how many think that you stack might you hit someone and it does its damage. And don't what about holo, the explosives trait line applies power damage like a lot of passive condition traits, "your next hit does bonus 3k damage, doesn't matter if its low telegraph or instant cast".

    dunno, how many people know that mesmer stealth doesnt stack with thief stealth
    or that daze overrites stun ( learned that today btw )
    how many people know that shroud reduces dmg by 50%? its not said anywhere in the tooltip.
    how many know that weakness glancing hit removes crit? its not said anywhere
    If you paid attention during gameplay as condi build you would have quickly notice if how it works, similar how I quickly noticed that mesmer stealth doesnt work with thief stealth. After I started playing condi it was the first thing I asked myself. Do I need to apply might/weakness and then apply condi and it doesnt matter if they dissapear or do I have to keep them through entire duration.
    Knowledge, gather it and improve yourself.

    Maybe it should be added in the game so people know how stuff works in the Game.
    Also stop derailing the thread.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    how to fix condi dmg? that's simple, just remove cleanse, change the system and make toughness reduce condi dmg and work as a magic resistance.

    this will fix debuffs that don't work because of cleanse, will fix condi damage.

    so we don't have to hear more cries, want go against condi? build toughness and heal.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    how to fix condi dmg? that's simple, just remove cleanse, change the system and make toughness reduce condi dmg and work as a magic resistance.

    this will fix debuffs that don't work because of cleanse, will fix condi damage.

    so we don't have to hear more cries, want go against condi? build toughness and heal.

    Do cleanses stay for the cc conditions?
    Also this thread does not suggest nerfing of conditions just clarity on how much damage it does on your bar.
    Other options would be nice also like some way that you can see on you health bar that you might die from the conditions or they will not do much damage.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    how to fix condi dmg? that's simple, just remove cleanse, change the system and make toughness reduce condi dmg and work as a magic resistance.

    this will fix debuffs that don't work because of cleanse, will fix condi damage.

    so we don't have to hear more cries, want go against condi? build toughness and heal.

    Do cleanses stay for the cc conditions?
    Also this thread does not suggest nerfing of conditions just clarity on how much damage it does on your bar.
    Other options would be nice also like some way that you can see on you health bar that you might die from the conditions or they will not do much damage.

    cleanse should stay only for cc conditions but with a high cooldown and for only for support builds, since cc condition should be a thing.
    This isn't new, it's like work in every other game, gw2 want to be unique but they can't fix their system and it's bad, gw2 is already one of the best mmos out there, their system have potential to be the best but it's like they don't want it

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:
    how to fix condi dmg? that's simple, just remove cleanse, change the system and make toughness reduce condi dmg and work as a magic resistance.

    as a seperate stat or just toughness affecting condi damage? If it's the second one, 100% no. Condi exist to counter toughness/damage reduction stacking.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    Just off the cuff this doesn't make any sense - why should Toughness be the only net-neutral stat in the game? Toughness should absolutely not make you weaker against condi. It should only make you stronger against direct damage. It's arguably already an underpowered stat if only because of how much damage is dealt through conditions and therefore bypasses it. But I don't think Toughness needs to change, I think conditions need to.

    More broadly, Anet has borked conditions and I don't know why they seem to have so much trouble seeing what the problem is. It penetrates armor, so it should deal lower damage and there should be fewer sources of cleanse and resistance. Condi should represent steady pressure that is especially useful against high armor targets, not quick kills irrespective of target build. They tried to address this by extending condition duration a few years back like EQ dots and that was absolutely the wrong approach with GW2's quick paced combat - they need to just revert and do the above.

    The game's balance is never going to feel right until they address this properly.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The other suggestion that was made in the past was to add some kind of visual indicator for the total damage of all conditions on your bar assuming they weren't cleansed. This avoids having to change the entire condition system to be "consistent" with power damage. (Although I always thought it was weird to gain might and have already applied conditions tick harder).

    A visual indicator is not so simple with variable condition damage stats changing the final outcome. However, the bar could recalculate once per tick with the condition damage stat(s) that are being applied to the current tick of damage. I'm not sure how intensive a process this would be if handled client-side, but at least then you'd get a rough estimate of how much damage you are going to take assuming nothing changes.

    Graphically, I'd suggest a ring around the health orb that fills on both sides from the bottom. If it fills 50% then that represents 50% of your total HP. If the bar is filled higher than your current HP...you have a problem. If the bar is entirely filled you definitely have a problem.

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  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:
    The other suggestion that was made in the past was to add some kind of visual indicator for the total damage of all conditions on your bar assuming they weren't cleansed. This avoids having to change the entire condition system to be "consistent" with power damage. (Although I always thought it was weird to gain might and have already applied conditions tick harder).

    A visual indicator is not so simple with variable condition damage stats changing the final outcome. However, the bar could recalculate once per tick with the condition damage stat(s) that are being applied to the current tick of damage. I'm not sure how intensive a process this would be if handled client-side, but at least then you'd get a rough estimate of how much damage you are going to take assuming nothing changes.

    Graphically, I'd suggest a ring around the health orb that fills on both sides from the bottom. If it fills 50% then that represents 50% of your total HP. If the bar is filled higher than your current HP...you have a problem. If the bar is entirely filled you definitely have a problem.

    I think the barrier animation could have been good for this, but that ship sailed. The effects bar has become really messy over the years and gives more disinformation then information at this point.

  • ShadowCatz.8437ShadowCatz.8437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    Just off the cuff this doesn't make any sense - why should Toughness be the only net-neutral stat in the game? Toughness should absolutely not make you weaker against condi. It should only make you stronger against direct damage. It's arguably already an underpowered stat if only because of how much damage is dealt through conditions and therefore bypasses it. But I don't think Toughness needs to change, I think conditions need to.

    More broadly, Anet has borked conditions and I don't know why they seem to have so much trouble seeing what the problem is. It penetrates armor, so it should deal lower damage and there should be fewer sources of cleanse and resistance. Condi should represent steady pressure that is especially useful against high armor targets, not quick kills irrespective of target build. They tried to address this by extending condition duration a few years back like EQ dots and that was absolutely the wrong approach with GW2's quick paced combat - they need to just revert and do the above.

    The game's balance is never going to feel right until they address this properly.

    How would anybody running a condition build be able to keep up with one shot power builds? I don't see any way for a condition build to negate damage taken when all mitigation have been used to avoid getting hit (and power builds do also use condition to control [confusion, torment, immob as a few example] and increase their damage [typical for power based weapon that they also have vulnerability as condition or chill - that both restrict movement, skill use and do damage, there is also slow as condition that are more common from trait lines]. When power where dominating before HoT and most people where suggesting Berserker as main stat (before quadrupole attribute existed) we have serious problem with hard CC instead, people could be hard locked down and killed. So I don't think what those people here above suggest is realistic.

    Getting hard locked or one shot is actually worse then having condition that you can (A) reduce duration on from traits, food and runes and (B) cleanse with traits, runes or sigils outside of skills and (C) most conditions are also depending on targets action like confusion (use less skills - less damage taken), torment (do more damage when you move), poison (counter regen or healing over time type of heals). The strongest direct damage type of condition is burning as it hits directly HP and are connected to Might (as directly converted when ripped). The main problem here isn't condition by itself, but how even one stack cripple stop regeneration (without any other damage your healing will always regenerate, so when take small damage it will heal up to full HP). This increase the problem with all condition that isn't targeting damage on HP as those prevent regeneration even when there is only cripple, blind or any other condition type of condition on target. Poison is the condition that should have this kind of effect on regeneration of HP and maybe bleed as it is meant to do small damage over time.

    If any of those suggestion about toughness should be realistic then it would need a complete rework of weapon, trait lines and how each profession work as to control, do damage and mitigate it. It isn't realistic to believe that condition is the only main problem here.

    It is how some players optimize builds too hard to have fast kills (in WvW and PvP) and that in turns make it hard to balance (even when there are difference in base coefficients for damage and condition damage in each game mode). So far I haven't seen anybody here talk about leeching mechanic (draining effect) as that actually is based on power damage and it will circumvent condition removal (as it is direct, do damage and at same time give HP to attacker). In other words it bypass all means to avoid taking damage.

    What needs to discuss is actually what is the median baseline for HP independent on profession that ANet operates with? Going for glass canon means no vitality increase from base attributes at all and same for toughness. Less HP and more taken damage from direct hits on the negative side, but higher damage when able to hit a target. Is that still a reasonable option and is the trade off with higher chance of deaths/kill due to being dependent on mitigation and crowd control effects enough? On the other end is full investment on toughness and vitality enough to keep you alive long enough to actually kill your target within the mechanic this game offer (both in PvE, WvW and PvP)?

    With Breakbar/Defiance bar the intention from ANet where to keep player (A) in combat - which also reduce movement, regen and other feature you don't have when you are out of combat and (B) to delay a kill so other player would also have time to kill that target with defiance bar (a bar that is now also possible to get in WvW as Dragon Banner and on NPCs in PvP and WvW).

    To sum it up: all type of player want fast rewards as it built into progression in most MMOs and therefore there is a need to prevent too fast progression for majority of players combined with how some players try to bypass this with faster kills (TTK). Vitality and toughness force a higher duration on fights (at least in theory), but it is bypassed by zerging (that is why stacking for boon sharing and organised guilds/ VoIP groups can be so strong) which again increase damage and particular condition damage are more common connected with AoE type of damage. I have only played ESO and GW2 both in WvW mode and PvE mode and my experience is that it is complex to avoid getting one type of profession or mechanic to become dominant. In particular WvW mode will always some kind of lag and that speaks for DoT (condition damage) being the preferred damage type as when it have been registered and confirmed on server it will do its work. If a skill wont activate it will hurt much more direct damage (power) as it will need to be confirmed on server.

    We all know that there is issues in all PvP modes (incl WvW) and lately more and more also in PvE with large group of players, so all this talk about toughness vs condition is really missing the larger picture on how small changes might actually have larger side effects then what we here on forum like to believe could happen.
    What kind of calculation is done locally and on server side, how are those calculation being done?

    All calculation do have a duration even as simple as '1 + 1'. There are different way to treat '1 + 1' either to just store two 1 in binary form and then use '+' as an operator with AND. For the same calculation this would be different if we talk about a hexadecimal system, even use another computer language or for use in a database focused system where storage ('1') and handle information (retrieval) is the main goal.

    My point here isn't to go into computer science or math, but explain that there is other way to do calculation that for most people look like straight away to get what we expect to be be the sum '2', but there is more efficient and different ways when we have to keep track of lot of information and we don't know enough about this and how suggested changes might impact "cost" in calculating on server side. For those that have had calculus know the approximation of PI Π (~3.14) can be an almost infinite number if one wish or need extreme high precision and that does take even faster computers some time to interpolate its number to that level of precision.

    In short all calculation takes time (or have a "cost"). With condition we don't even know the exact priority between each type of condition, how those measurement related to damage are being stored (as for range, stack, each stack of condition duration, area which is covered of the same condition, condition removal and which information to prevent area in game to not get covered like walls, doors or other objects etc).

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:
    I don't know what these suggestions would solve. Ok, so i know the burn doesnt deal as much damage because he doesn't have condi power.. but i slotted the condi removal anyway... but since it does 300 per tick, instead of 600 per tick, i'm not going to use the condi removal skill i slotted? is this what you're saying? because you'd probably want to remove 3 burns, or 6 bleeds , or 10 poison, if they have condi damage or not. and you slotted the condi removal anyway, so you might as well use it.

    you're the same person who insisted that weakness should reduce condi damage. so... maybe you should just start slotting condi removal, and learn how to use it, instead of relying on the game flashing your screen whenever you take damage.

    do you need them to add visual cues when you should dodge as well? like a huge indicator that takes up your entire screen and screams "DODGE NOW! DODGE NOW!"? would that help you buddy?

    "YOU'RE TAKING 500 DPS PER TICK FROM CONDIS! REMOVE REMOVE REMOVE REMOVE REMOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is that helpful to you? because ummm... im aware of how much damage im taking at all times. i'm never "Surprised" like, wow, that 10 burn did a lot of damage, i had no idea!!! i guess i should've used the condi cleanse that i always slot! I thought he didnt have condi power so i just left the 10 burns on me! silly me, oopsies!

    Maybe you should start reading then in that thread we agreed that weakness should probably be flat power damage reduction instead of random 75% reduction every second hit.
    You got your nickers in a quite a bunch i think.
    Also why are good telegraphs bad idea for a game based on twitch defense.
    How do you know that i'm not running around with full condi cleanse builds.
    You assume too much. Maybe i just dislike passive gameplay.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Maybe you should start reading then in that thread we agreed that weakness should probably be flat power damage reduction instead of random 75% reduction every second hit.
    You got your nickers in a quite a bunch i think.
    Also why are good telegraphs bad idea for a game based on twitch defense.
    How do you know that i'm not running around with full condi cleanse builds.
    You assume too much. Maybe i just dislike passive gameplay.

    none of your suggested changes increase active gameplay. gameplay would remain the same. high stacks of conditions = remove. low stacks of conditions = dont remove. weakness would still reduce damage by the same amount over a large amount of time, just more uniform on a per-hit basis, basically making weakness into an offensive "Protection".... which is already is. it wouldnt make anything more active. it literally changes nothing.

    its just change for the sake of change.

    this is why your suggestions are silly. ANet already has a tendency to make "changes for the sake of change" and you want to give them more things to change, for absolutely no reason, no actual change in gameplay, and no real gameplay benefit.

    it doesn't make sense. it just sounds like you think you know how to design a game, or balance pvp, but then your suggested changes don't actually do anything, and if anything, they add more confusion than they would take away.

    if anything, your changes would make every player have to re-learn what each mechanic does, which would literally confuse everyone with no benefit.

    and then you come at me as if everyone agrees with you; but in your post, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY completely disagreed with you. same with this thread. 90% of players disagree with you. don't take one response and assume you're some brilliant designer because one PvE player agrees with you.

    if you want less passive gameplay, you'd be giving suggestions that actually increase the skill cap in the game, which these last two "suggestions" don't do.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Maybe you should start reading then in that thread we agreed that weakness should probably be flat power damage reduction instead of random 75% reduction every second hit.
    You got your nickers in a quite a bunch i think.
    Also why are good telegraphs bad idea for a game based on twitch defense.
    How do you know that i'm not running around with full condi cleanse builds.
    You assume too much. Maybe i just dislike passive gameplay.

    none of your suggested changes increase active gameplay. gameplay would remain the same. high stacks of conditions = remove. low stacks of conditions = dont remove. weakness would still reduce damage by the same amount over a large amount of time, just more uniform on a per-hit basis, basically making weakness into an offensive "Protection".... which is already is. it wouldnt make anything more active. it literally changes nothing.

    its just change for the sake of change.

    this is why your suggestions are silly. ANet already has a tendency to make "changes for the sake of change" and you want to give them more things to change, for absolutely no reason, no actual change in gameplay, and no real gameplay benefit.

    it doesn't make sense. it just sounds like you think you know how to design a game, or balance pvp, but then your suggested changes don't actually do anything, and if anything, they add more confusion than they would take away.

    if anything, your changes would make every player have to re-learn what each mechanic does, which would literally confuse everyone with no benefit.

    and then you come at me as if everyone agrees with you; but in your post, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY completely disagreed with you. same with this thread. 90% of players disagree with you. don't take one response and assume you're some brilliant designer because one PvE player agrees with you.

    if you want less passive gameplay, you'd be giving suggestions that actually increase the skill cap in the game, which these last two "suggestions" don't do.

    Now you are arguing that i suggest to change nothing but how much information you have at any given time. How is my suggestion that as you said changes nothing, forces people to relearn something that hasn't changed at all. Also the buff bar is even bigger mess in PVE, so maybe that so called PVE player has say about it.
    Why is having better conveyed information so bad? Isn't it better to tell what is going on with a glance, instead of relying on luck and guessing.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    people just need to read information they are given in game and start utilizing it properly.
    It IS kind of awkward to keep glancing at the map, your condition bar and buff bar of enemies but its what you should do
    Practice makes perfect, with time you will notice condis on you so fast they dont even have a chance to make a more then 1 tick of damage if even that

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    people just need to read information they are given in game and start utilizing it properly.
    It IS kind of awkward to keep glancing at the map, your condition bar and buff bar of enemies but its what you should do
    Practice makes perfect, with time you will notice condis on you so fast they dont even have a chance to make a more then 1 tick of damage if even that

    It gets double awkward when you have to do some math on top of that. How many steps can i afford to make with x amount of torment, can i press this stun break when i have confusion, are all these stacks of burn from the power guardian or are they from the fire weaver.

  • Caine.8204Caine.8204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    people just need to read information they are given in game and start utilizing it properly.
    It IS kind of awkward to keep glancing at the map, your condition bar and buff bar of enemies but its what you should do
    Practice makes perfect, with time you will notice condis on you so fast they dont even have a chance to make a more then 1 tick of damage if even that

    It gets double awkward when you have to do some math on top of that. How many steps can i afford to make with x amount of torment, can i press this stun break when i have confusion, are all these stacks of burn from the power guardian or are they from the fire weaver.

    good players make these calculations without thinking. a quick glance towards your condis tells you everything you need to know. i don't know how much information you need. and yes, mechanical changes for the pure sake of mechanical changes is a "nothing" change. if they just made it so higher condition damage stacks conditions higher, EVERY player would have to relearn how much damage X amount of conditions deal. if 10 bleeds went down to 3 bleeds, you don't think that would cause mass confusion? where i previously wouldn't cleanse 3 bleeds, now it deals shitloads of damage, so i have to cleanse it.

    it would make people have to relearn the entire condition mechanic, for the sake of "additional information" that you don't need in the first place. your change will basically reset everything i have learned about the game over its lifespan, how do you possibly think that would benefit anyone but the noobs?

    it literally would ONLY benefit new or unaware players. everyone who has been playing this game for years would be understandably enraged at this.

    im going to stop refreshing this topic now. bad suggestion is bad.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    people just need to read information they are given in game and start utilizing it properly.
    It IS kind of awkward to keep glancing at the map, your condition bar and buff bar of enemies but its what you should do
    Practice makes perfect, with time you will notice condis on you so fast they dont even have a chance to make a more then 1 tick of damage if even that

    It gets double awkward when you have to do some math on top of that. How many steps can i afford to make with x amount of torment, can i press this stun break when i have confusion, are all these stacks of burn from the power guardian or are they from the fire weaver.

    good players make these calculations without thinking. a quick glance towards your condis tells you everything you need to know. i don't know how much information you need. and yes, mechanical changes for the pure sake of mechanical changes is a "nothing" change. if they just made it so higher condition damage stacks conditions higher, EVERY player would have to relearn how much damage X amount of conditions deal. if 10 bleeds went down to 3 bleeds, you don't think that would cause mass confusion? where i previously wouldn't cleanse 3 bleeds, now it deals shitloads of damage, so i have to cleanse it.

    it would make people have to relearn the entire condition mechanic, for the sake of "additional information" that you don't need in the first place. your change will basically reset everything i have learned about the game over its lifespan, how do you possibly think that would benefit anyone but the noobs?

    it literally would ONLY benefit new or unaware players. everyone who has been playing this game for years would be understandably enraged at this.

    im going to stop refreshing this topic now. bad suggestion is bad.

    Pretty sure the game changes constantly, like we learn of a new broken interactions after a patch and now we have to deal with it.
    And stop bullshitting knowing something benefits everyone, even a small graphic telling you how much damage you would take on your health bar would probably go a long way.
    In HoT the average amount of different conditions you can see on yourself was 4 in PoF this jumped to 6 or 8 depending on class. I don't think i have ever seen stacks go over 15 in HoT pvp and that was usually when you were cced, PoF starts somehow you have 30 stacks instantly, i know there were a lot of bugged interactions, double dipping on traits, skills double hitting but come on was it really necessary for some classes to have multiple damaging conditions along with multiple disabling conditions at the same time.
    Also why is it bad for the game to help the noobs get into the game, as in now PVP has way too large barrier to entry, new people don't play since something is kitten and old players stop cause something is kitten, so we have less population, then we get worse games since the matchmaker is reaching way under and the games get worse at which point even more players leave.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 You need to know what skill does how much damage, and its not unique to condition damage.
    How much will rev hit me with deathstrike? with my past exp, and a quick look at my condition bar ( vulerability ) and their buff bar ( might ) I can estimate the damage.
    And I dont even play revenant, been hit upwards of 10k with it but average about ~7k hits. And I act accordingly.
    Stacks of condis dont matter, its the damage they dish out is what matters, pistol 4 from mesmer in theory can apply 19 stacks of bleeding if all hits crit.
    Sonds dangerous right? well thats ~4k dmg in bleed, suddenly thats less so right?
    And then 2 stacks of burning from my torch will do over 5k, if they last its entire long duration.
    Its no different then power builds, if anything its more fair. Power builds have rng aspect built in. Maybe deathstrike hits me for 8k and im dead, or mb he gets no crit and its 4k.... or mb he will glance for 2k instead.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Vancho.8750 You need to know what skill does how much damage, and its not unique to condition damage.
    How much will rev hit me with deathstrike? with my past exp, and a quick look at my condition bar ( vulerability ) and their buff bar ( might ) I can estimate the damage.
    And I dont even play revenant, been hit upwards of 10k with it but average about ~7k hits. And I act accordingly.
    Stacks of condis dont matter, its the damage they dish out is what matters, pistol 4 from mesmer in theory can apply 19 stacks of bleeding if all hits crit.
    Sonds dangerous right? well thats ~4k dmg in bleed, suddenly thats less so right?
    And then 2 stacks of burning from my torch will do over 5k, if they last its entire long duration.
    Its no different then power builds, if anything its more fair. Power builds have rng aspect built in. Maybe deathstrike hits me for 8k and im dead, or mb he gets no crit and its 4k.... or mb he will glance for 2k instead.

    Most of the condition attacks lack proper telegraphs, come as passive damage or from pulsing aoes. The mesmer pistol is probably the best telegraphed condition weapon or even ranged weapon for that matter, it has the pew pew sound queue that no one can mistake, it has proper animation with fast enough projectile speed to be seen and dodged, it has intent behind it and then we had the condi mirage that relied more on the passive application of conditions from clone basic attacks, one is active one is passive and the second got used way more. You could always ballpark how much damage would the pistol do since it kinda worked like power weapon.
    And then there are the you will be hit by this passive anyway skills, like for example Incendiary Ammo and Thief poisons, dodge doesn't help on those you have to cleanse.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caine.8204 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said: a bunch of nonsense about how change is good

    the issue is that design resources are being funneled into possibly using your suggestion to add some other misguided piece of nonsense to the game for the sake of change. the new heart of the mists is a great example of this; there was absolutely 0 reason to actually make a new pvp lobby, and yet they funneled design resources into it anyway.

    the old school trait change where they made you pick 3 trees rather than 2.5 trees... really no reason to change it rather than just to change something. they could've just spent those resources balancing specific traits

    the removal of PvP rank boxes, like dragon boxes, phoenix boxes where you could get skins. replaced with reward tracks with about 10x the amount of boxes, and 10% the amount of wardrobe unlocks. just because... what? they wanted us to have more boxes but less actual rewards?

    entire reworks of specs, like chrono oh idk, 5 or 6 times, for the purpose of killing the build, stabbing it over and over again with huge sweeping changes, finally resulting in the removal of self-shatter, and then again the re-addition of self-shatter. the removal of self-shroud skills for Scourge, and the subsequent re-addition of self-shroud skills for scourge.

    the addition of "level up bonuses", which just added 79 more buttons to click each time you make a new character.

    they constantly rework and rework and rework and rework, and then 8 years later, there is hardly any "new" content in the game, just "reworked" content.

    your suggestion is another clear example of a rework for the sake of change, with change very little gameplay, and would give you MORE to look at on your bar. if they condensed it down to make it so condi builds just stack more conditions, you would have to relearn the entire condition system to judge how much 3 bleeds do now, compared to before.

    They have consistently and aggressively avoided adding anything "new" to the game. Instead, we get constant "reworks" that often leave the game in a worse state than before the change. Your change would give me more to look at. A larger distraction. A numerical value on my condition bar that , idk, would cover up the amount of stacks of bleed i have? or i would have to hover over it mid-combat to see how much damage im taking when i already know, as a long term player? or just a reworking of how conditions work entirely, just to confuse everyone and possibly leave the system in a worse state then it is currently? They could've easily added small changes to these systems that don't take months of reworking.

    Do a little bit of map work in the Mists to make it viable for mounts. BOOM. MONTHS SAVED.
    Add more loot to the previous dragon,phoenix boxes, if money generation was the issue. BOOM. MONTHS OF REWORKS SAVED.
    When you level up, give Karma, small amounts of silver, so you can buy gear. BOOM. MONTHS OF REWORKS SAVED.
    Numerically nerf Chrono to the place you desire it. BOOM. Y E A R S of reworks saved.
    Numerically tweak traits to be where they desire them to be, breaking unintended metas. BOOM. MONTHS OF DESIGN CHANGES SAVED.

    I'm sick of the "reworks" over and over and over again just for the sake of change. for the love of GOD, ADD something to the game, instead of taking away our cake and giving us a meat pie. I'd rather have the cake. i'm so sick and tired of it.

    I didn't say do it my way, there are some people that added some suggestions that i consider better like the graphics on the healthbar, your stance is that everything is fine as is, i don't, i think the buff bar is a mess and gives more disinformation then information in its current form.
    I also think the current lobby is kinda depressing and the old one was better but that might be nostalgia.
    And allot of reworks and nerfs happened because they promoted passive gameplay, we probably had the biggest uptick of unique builds after they nerfed the self shades on scourge. If a game gets stale and uninteractive people get bored and leave.