It is nice to see all those threads about rewards paid off

After multiple recent threads with good feedback about WvW rewards and gear systems the developers finally took the time to go into the WvW rewards database ...

... and make the Sublime Armor skin more attainable for PvE players rather than making the Ascended items more attainable for WvW players.

In fact, my most recent alt account is on course to get the Sublime cosmetic before it has enough marks to buy a single second-tier armor piece, lol.

Priorities, priorities never changes :3 .

Sadly I fear this is one of those Kansas City Shuffle type deals. Multi-folded perhaps. Current, don't expand rewards since it would allow for more gold to gem conversions and undermine sales. Step 1, reduce entry in the current high level gear to encourage more people to try and get it and to build legendary armor. Step 2, introduce legendary armory that allows people to re-use gear on multiple toons and quickly change builds. Step 3, sell more build templates for the people that want to try and maximise this option or for the impatient. Step 4, create a value add in new expansion by releasing a higher tier of armor and effects that is in 3K-5K level that require a new type of currency available in WvW with the expansion.

I don't usually go there but, it kind of feels that way.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Sadly I fear this is one of those Kansas City Shuffle type deals. Multi-folded perhaps. Current, don't expand rewards since it would allow for more gold to gem conversions and undermine sales. Step 1, reduce entry in the current high level gear to encourage more people to try and get it and to build legendary armor. Step 2, introduce legendary armory that allows people to re-use gear on multiple toons and quickly change builds. Step 3, sell more build templates for the people that want to try and maximise this option or for the impatient. Step 4, create a value add in new expansion by releasing a higher tier of armor and effects that is in 3K-5K level that require a new type of currency available in WvW with the expansion.

I do think it is generally a good thing that they make things more accessible for newer players, but I also sadly fear, that you are completely right in your assessment.

Economically there's more PvE players so it's obvious that the point of that is to increase the available pool of WvW players (maybe not WvW exclusive players). A lot of players forget Arenanet is still a for-profit company , with shareholders.

If they're going to spend dev hours on more new things for WvW players then they need the skin/item/etc to be for more than a handful of people. Titles take much less effort because there are no art assets involved. You can't rationalize away dev time from Living Story or even fractals for WVW stuff unless there is a large enough userbase.

From gw2e that's at best 10% for all ranks based on Icebrood Saga reward track and Emblem of the Conqueror (similar to PvP which has ~7% for Icebrood Saga Reward Track, <7% with a League Slayer in 5v5 season 21, <4% for 3v3 season 1 , <2% with the Emblem from ranked games) compared to about 20% of the gw2e registered users that finished any achievement from the last 2 episodes. So the priority is probably going to be PvE Living World , then WvW/PvP. PvP has gotten ATs and the 2v2/3v3 off seasons.

Speaking of which if they're going to make mistforged armor more available then I want a dye channel for the aura. Light blue doesn't work with some dark colors.

@Infusion.7149 said:If they're going to spend dev hours on more new things for WvW players then they need the skin/item/etc to be for more than a handful of people.And yet they just spent plenty of time creating a Frost Legion Infusion that only 0.1% of the players will make.

EDIT: AND, they just spent dev time creating the God of WvW title which what, 1000 people in total will EVER get?

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:If they're going to spend dev hours on more new things for WvW players then they need the skin/item/etc to be for more than a handful of people.And yet they just spent plenty of time creating a Frost Legion Infusion that only 0.1% of the players will make.

The Frost Legion Infusion has economic implications beyond that to keep crystallized shard of jormag value up.

In essence it's a recolored Heart of Khan-Ur infusion anyway. You don't need the item for the effect, the tonics produce the same effect.

@Infusion.7149 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:If they're going to spend dev hours on more new things for WvW players then they need the skin/item/etc to be for more than a handful of people.And yet they just spent plenty of time creating a Frost Legion Infusion that only 0.1% of the players will make.

But the shard only exists to make the infusion. I don't think there are any economic factors at play there that wouldn't be solved in other ways. Anyway, it was dev time spent to give players more loot and ways to obtain gold. If you set the WvW team a goal of making WvW rewards better within 3 days and they couldn't do it, they all need to be fired.

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:If you set the WvW team a goal of making WvW rewards better within 3 days and they couldn't do it, they all need to be fired.

Do you really think there is a WvW team?

@Zok.4956 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:If you set the WvW team a goal of making WvW rewards better within 3 days and they couldn't do it, they all need to be fired.

A dedicated WvW team? No. But more than 1 person is a team and you can be on more than 1 team at a time.

@"Infusion.7149" said:Economically there's more PvE players so it's obvious that the point of that is to increase the available pool of WvW players (maybe not WvW exclusive players). A lot of players forget Arenanet is still a for-profit company , with shareholders.Alot of players who make those two remarks seems to forget two principle things of that they refer to:1) Looking to pull PvE players into WvW at the expense of WvW players does not make either new players, more money or more content over a longer perspective, which leads us to ...2) A stable business that is looking to stay in the industry does not play the short game, devalue their trademark or vulture their customer base. That is the hallmark of someone looking to firesale and get out.

The business that you are talking about is bad business, at least for a company and its employees. We're not talking to NCsoft's shareholders here.

Just to add some talking points: I don't think this is a case of pandering to their owners or some lowball scheme to sell more upgrades. I think this is yet another simple case of being out of touch due to the level of neglect (as per the OP). This is someone in a director meeting going "let's throw WvW a bone, there's a WvW event comming up, what can we scrape off the table - Jim, what does the data say?". Then they go by some statistics or misplaced focus group and think that they are doing the mode a favour. Then again, to some degree it is. It will make the time spent until you can avoid Tier 2 marks shorter.

However, it is still an issue because that is not the foremost impact. It doesn't add much positivity (500 WXP is alot for normative items but little for a skin of legendary value, it doesn't affect weapons etc.), it doesn't necessarily outweigh the negativity it brings and there are far superior ways to go about it. I mean, that's the message of this thread: That what @Zok.4956 said in his comment isn't true. If it was true I would have no problems with the change but this change does less to make things accessible to new players than it does to devalue a single cosmetic particle effect. If they wanted to make things more accessible to newer players, this was not a good way to go about it. Had they paid even some basic attention to this mode they'd known that.

@Infusion.7149 said:Economically there's more PvE players so it's obvious that the point of that is to increase the available pool of WvW players (maybe not WvW exclusive players). A lot of players forget Arenanet is still a for-profit company , with shareholders.

If they're going to spend dev hours on more new things for WvW players then they need the skin/item/etc to be for more than a handful of people. Titles take much less effort because there are no art assets involved. You can't rationalize away dev time from Living Story or even fractals for WVW stuff unless there is a large enough userbase.

From gw2e that's at best 10% for all ranks based on Icebrood Saga reward track and Emblem of the Conqueror (similar to PvP which has ~7% for Icebrood Saga Reward Track, <7% with a League Slayer in 5v5 season 21, <4% for 3v3 season 1 , <2% with the Emblem from ranked games) compared to about 20% of the gw2e registered users that finished any achievement from the last 2 episodes. So the priority is probably going to be PvE Living World , then WvW/PvP. PvP has gotten ATs and the 2v2/3v3 off seasons.

Speaking of which if they're going to make mistforged armor more available then I want a dye channel for the aura. Light blue doesn't work with some dark colors.

I've been asking for that change for too long, they could take the bulky junk pieces off of the shoulders while they're at but I'd take a fix to that aura if nothing else.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:That what @Zok.4956 said in his comment isn't true. If it was true I would have no problems with the change but this change does less to make things accessible to new players than it does to devalue a single cosmetic particle effect. If they wanted to make things more accessible to newer players, this was not a good way to go about it. Had they paid even some basic attention to this mode they'd known that.

Maybe you misunderstood my comment or I wrote it misleading. In agreeing with the comment from @TheGrimm.5624 I thought I made it clear, that I think this is not a good way of making things more accessible to newer players.

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:If you set the WvW team a goal of making WvW rewards better within 3 days and they couldn't do it, they all need to be fired.

@Zok.4956 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:That what @Zok.4956 said in his comment isn't true. If it was true I would have no problems with the change but this change does less to make things accessible to new players than it does to devalue a single cosmetic particle effect. If they wanted to make things more accessible to newer players, this was not a good way to go about it. Had they paid even some basic attention to this mode they'd known that.

As far as I'm concerned the Sublime chest skin can still be 2000 wxp and everything else can be 1 wxp so Tier 2 can be thrown out with the bathwater. In fact, that would be a much better informed solution and even keeps the same approach. It doesn't even consider superior approaches and it still blows their cack up out of the water and turns this into something overwhelmingly positive instead.

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Economically there's more PvE players so it's obvious that the point of that is to increase the available pool of WvW players (maybe not WvW exclusive players). A lot of players forget Arenanet is still a for-profit company , with shareholders.Alot of players who make those two remarks seems to forget two principle things of that they refer to:1) Looking to pull PvE players into WvW at the expense of WvW players does not make either new players, more money or more content over a longer perspective, which leads us to ...2) A stable business that is looking to stay in the industry does not play the short game, devalue their trademark or vulture their customer base. That is the hallmark of someone looking to firesale and get out.

The skin isn't legendary, why do people keep saying it is legendary?

Conflux is legendary; Warbringer is legendary.

Who knows, maybe they will have an upgraded tier requiring a WvW rank that actually has maxed WvW masteries for an innate legendary armor that doesn't have an ascended version.

If they actually had a plan to make WvW more accessible to 90%+ WvW or WvW-only players (rather than enticing PvE players) then the grandmaster mark shards would be grandmaster marks by now. We'd have better selection on utilities from the portable provisioner by now , we'd have siege skins, we'd have 32 slot siegemaster satchel requiring WvW currency, etc. Just have to accept it for what it is until the direction changes.

Also if it were up to the vocal minority of this forum then we'd probably have a leveled field with nothing on it because "fight guilds" that stack servers are more inclined to complain, nerfing classes randomly , and 50 man blobs fighting each other on a flat surface over nothing openfield because apparently siege is OP. The customer isn't always right in this case and trolling Arenanet doesn't help anybody.

@Infusion.7149 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Infusion.7149 said:Economically there's more PvE players so it's obvious that the point of that is to increase the available pool of WvW players (maybe not WvW exclusive players). A lot of players forget Arenanet is still a for-profit company , with shareholders.Alot of players who make those two remarks seems to forget two principle things of that they refer to:1) Looking to pull PvE players into WvW at the expense of WvW players does not make either new players, more money or more content over a longer perspective, which leads us to ...2) A stable business that is looking to stay in the industry does not play the short game, devalue their trademark or vulture their customer base. That is the hallmark of someone looking to firesale and get out.

The 2K rank requirement didn't affect me, because my own WvW rank is higher than 2K but I agree. 2K as a requirement was way to high when they introduced this. It never should have been 2K. And also the new title requirement should not be 10K, there are not much WvW players left, that earned the 10K rank through playing WvW (kill trading and EoTM are not WvW). I am happy for new players, that they maybe can get the skin easier, but it is not a good way how Anet changed this afterwards.

The skin isn't legendary, why do people keep saying it is legendary?

Technically you are right. The WvW legendary armor does not have a special skin/effect on its own (like the PvE raid legendary Perfected Envoy armor has) , but instead it re-uses the skin of the precursor ascended armor (Triumphant Hero's armor or Mistforged Triumphant Hero's armor ) it was made with.

On the other hand, someone could say, that the skin of the better precursor uses already the skin of its legendary and does not have a (simpler) precursor skin on its own.

My guess: Originally the Triumphant Hero's armor was planned as the precursor skin and the Mistforged Triumphant Hero's armor was planned as the legendary skin and it was planned in the same way the PvE Perfected Envoy armor is made:

Tier 1: Triumphant armorTier 2: Triumphant Hero's armor (precursor)Tier 3: Mistforged Triumphant Hero's armor (legendary)

But then they maybe decided, to vary from the way the PvE legendary armor is made, so that there will be two precursors the legendary could be made from, but they did not want to invest the effort of creating the additional precursor skin(s).

Of course thats just my guess, not facts.

@Infusion.7149 said:Just have to accept it for what it is until the direction changes.This sounds like a brilliant plan my dude, especially on a discussion forum.trolling Arenanet doesn't help anybodyThat is more down to whatever effort people feel like putting in and how healthy the state surrounding the discourse is.I tend to point out to people that things go roughly like this:

• If people are suggesting improvement to things that are already pretty good or talk about how to expand, then things are healthy
• If people are complaining and critisizing constructively that may look/feel bad but it shows that they still care and put in the effort
• If people begin to meme and troll that is a sign of them starting to give up or give up their hope, faith or trust in the product
• People who have already left the game say nothing at all

Some mistakes are easy to come back from, others are not.

You only have to look at the daily bumped Alliance thread to see this in action.

Also, regarding the cosmetic. You qouted me saying it was of a legendary value (ie., not a legendary) and then wondered why people say its legendary :s .

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Infusion.7149" said:Just have to accept it for what it is until the direction changes.This sounds like a brilliant plan my dude, especially on a discussion forum.trolling Arenanet doesn't help anybodyThat is more down to whatever effort people feel like putting in and how healthy the state surrounding the discourse is.I tend to point out to people that things go roughly like this:

• If people are suggesting improvement to things that are already pretty good or talk about how to expand, then things are healthy
• If people are complaining and critisizing constructively that may look/feel bad but it shows that they still care and put in the effort
• If people begin to meme and troll that is a sign of them starting to give up or give up their hope, faith or trust in the product
• People who have already left the game say nothing at all

Understanding they don't have the resources nor the logistics given the current pandemic while pushing forth threads that actually have value and require a reasonable amount of dev hours (man-hours) is a better way to be taken seriously. Plus "Alliances" will fail if people continue to act the way they do, transferring every relink and gaming the system : to think otherwise is naive. That is likely a dev nightmare to try to untangle. It's very easy to complain about things but if you're part of the problem, that isn't constructive.

For example, core ranger players that don't get on comms and camp longbow: do you pay attention to them when they complain about the commander's skill/judgement? No,because they don't even care enough to get on comms or to use a proper WvW build. Do you think if they meme and troll the commander they will get in the squad?

Also, so you think devs should spend time on wooing players that have already uninstalled / left the game? How do you expect them to ROI on that? I know someone who WvWed more or less exclusively that left for another game 2 years ago and they have no intention of returning even if WvW were changed , prior to that they were playing 12-18 hours a day and even 72+ hours a week.

@Zok.4956 said:The 2K rank requirement didn't affect me, because my own WvW rank is higher than 2K but I agree. 2K as a requirement was way to high when they introduced this.

This is why you could craft Legendary with the first set. The second set was an extended goal. This is about lowering a bar which devalues time people already spent. The same occurred when they add skins people earned in the past that were no longer available but now they are RNG in Black Lion chests. If I wasn't around when the skin was earnable I was ok with not being able to get it and happy a guildmate could show it off because they were. It showed longevity. To me this is again, dumbing down the game, everyone get a ribbon just for howing up. Its ok to have people work towards things.

@Zok.4956 said:It never should have been 2K. And also the new title requirement should not be 10K,

This too is ok, having it be up there makes people want to work towards things. Could it have used multiple requirements that showed playing multiple of things in WvW, yes. But just lowering it, no. And no, as a havoc/roamer not at 10K.

@Zok.4956 said:that earned the 10K rank through playing WvW (kill trading and EoTM are not WvW).

Another one. Did WvW not exist before EoTM? Do you really think we didn't have coverage wars before EoTM? Do you really believe coverage wars is not just KTraining? Just stop already and find another scapegoat. Anytime a group of more than is needed take an empty structure to paper it's a form of ktraining. Argument could be made for anytime empty period could be as well to be fair but we have enough times in the borderland when it's the entire map zerg going where another side is not. I am not disputing its a valid target, but to say its just in EoTM is denying what already goes on when the other side isn't around.

I lead a PvE guild and there's so many players that enjoy playing some WvW, and several that really love the WvW legendary armour but gave up any hope of getting it because it takes an insanely long time to get a rank that high. I played almost exclusively WvW for years myself and I'm only rank 3000. I think lowering the rank requirement to 500 is going to make it seem like an attainable goal, and is probably going to encourage them to play even more WvW.

A shame that so many veteran WvW players are so toxic and full of salt, especially to PvE players.

Also, grandmaster marks for buying the armours are craftable. Even leather is only 9g/mark. You do not need to wait for the ones from the pip track to get your asc gear, and it's still cheaper than crafting it normally.

Legendary armor in WvW never had a rank requirement , Lottie.

Also, the grandmaster mark shards are a sham.

@"Lottie.5370" said:I lead a PvE guild and there's so many players that enjoy playing some WvW, and several that really love the WvW legendary armour but gave up any hope of getting it because it takes an insanely long time to get a rank that high. I played almost exclusively WvW for years myself and I'm only rank 3000. I think lowering the rank requirement to 500 is going to make it seem like an attainable goal, and is probably going to encourage them to play even more WvW.

A shame that so many veteran WvW players are so toxic and full of salt, especially to PvE players.

Also, grandmaster marks for buying the armours are craftable. Even leather is only 9g/mark. You do not need to wait for the ones from the pip track to get your asc gear, and it's still cheaper than crafting it normally.

Why did you mislead your guild? Is there somewhere in game that has a bug about requirements? Personally had to come to the wiki when first thinking about legendary armor to find the recipe. Am also only around rank 3.5, and yes recently finished my third set of armor. Had guildmates that thought they had to have second set as well but pointed out the wiki. The 'salt' of the post is this was solving an issue that already had a solution. That time might have been better spent sharing this information in a better way in game versus reducing goals to reach extra steps. I am a PvXer and if you are at 3K so are you, so let's not say this is a WvW vs PvE issue.

You only need to unlock the first set of the ascended to create Legendary armor. Note in the WvW section at the bottom that either the unranked or ranked versions can be used. Also take a look at the cost summary box that has been out there for a while.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_armorhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Triumphant_Hero%27s_Masquehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mistforged_Triumphant_Hero%27s_Masque

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@"Lottie.5370" said:I lead a PvE guild and there's so many players that enjoy playing some WvW, and several that really love the WvW legendary armour but gave up any hope of getting it because it takes an insanely long time to get a rank that high. I played almost exclusively WvW for years myself and I'm only rank 3000. I think lowering the rank requirement to 500 is going to make it seem like an attainable goal, and is probably going to encourage them to play even more WvW.

A shame that so many veteran WvW players are so toxic and full of salt, especially to PvE players.

Also, grandmaster marks for buying the armours are craftable. Even leather is only 9g/mark. You do not need to wait for the ones from the pip track to get your asc gear, and it's still cheaper than crafting it normally.

I'm sorry what?

World vs. WorldGeneralEquipment no longer takes damage in World vs. World maps when players are defeated.World vs. World ascended armor now requires rank 500 to purchase, down from rank 1,500–2,000.

Maybe you want to read the patch notes buddy.

@Lottie.5370 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Lottie.5370 said:I lead a PvE guild and there's so many players that enjoy playing some WvW, and several that really love the WvW legendary armour but gave up any hope of getting it because it takes an insanely long time to get a rank that high. I played almost exclusively WvW for years myself and I'm only rank 3000. I think lowering the rank requirement to 500 is going to make it seem like an attainable goal, and is probably going to encourage them to play even more WvW.

A shame that so many veteran WvW players are so toxic and full of salt, especially to PvE players.

Also, grandmaster marks for buying the armours are craftable. Even leather is only 9g/mark. You do not need to wait for the ones from the pip track to get your asc gear, and it's still cheaper than crafting it normally.

There was 0 rank requirements to make the legendary armor. Its required either ascended set. The set that was reduced was the second set of ascended. The first set had 0 rank requirement and had to be unlocked before the second set.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Zok.4956 said:The 2K rank requirement didn't affect me, because my own WvW rank is higher than 2K but I agree. 2K as a requirement was way to high when they introduced this.

The Mistforged Triumphant Hero's armor is a skin that can be purchased as ascended armor. There is no need to craft a legendary if you only want the skin/effect.

Did I wrote that it was a good idea to lower the rank requirements for the Mistforged Triumphant Hero's armor from 1500-2000 to 500? Answer: No, I didn't.

But I still think it should not have been initially this high when the armor/skin was introduced back in the days. Because 2000 is way to high as an extensive goal for new players. I do remember the discussions from the time they introduced this gear/skin and the main reasoning for the high rank requirement was not to function as an extended goal for new WvW players, but that it was some form of appreciation for veteran WvW players that still played the game mode and that already had a high rank.

But because this high rank requirement existed for some time in the game, Anet should not just lowered it suddenly to 500, but instead should find a better solution for a problem Anet thinks it exists.

Maybe someone at Anet (maybe a decision in the home office when there was no one else to talk this through) forgot that there are two tiers of ascended WvW armor: The one without a rank requirement (Triumphant Hero's armor) and this one (Mistforged Triumphant Hero's armor) with the more exclusive skin and the rank requirement.

I think it would be best if Anet would justify their decision, if this change was intentional. And if it was just a mistake, they should fix their mistake as soon as possible.