Guardian Core Virtues

I know there were many requests before. And these requests were always ignored... but I am not going to give up :# . I will focus mainly on PvE.

What is the issue?Core virtues are 2012 relic. They are poor, and without virtues line nearly useless. The goal is to modernize them for multiple reasons:

1. Improve the skills performance to provide valuable buffs.
2. Improve core guardian performance. It is not meant to catch-up with DH or FB. Just be a bit closer.
3. Virtues line, outside of playing core guardian or DH in PvP (both are mediocre), is rarely used. Especially in PvE.
4. Core guardian to have a slight come back in PvP.
5. There is a possibility, that core virtues will not see a change. I suspect that there will be a forth virtues, with the other 3 remaining as is. If that happens, that elite line will have issues, if the core virtues are not modernized.

These buffs are not supposed to buff DH or FB damage output in PvE. They are supposed to be parallel. While one change will buff resolve.. a tiny bit.

Changes:Virtue of Justice, have 2 charges. This gives you the ability to maintain the passive and use the active. This should provide damage increase for both power and condi core builds, and give the a slight additional burst. Hybrid core? Strong possibility too.

Virtue of Courage.. 2 charges as well. Honestly, this was what I defaulted. I was thinking of a change not tied to virtues line. Does not provide contradictory or too strong of a buff. Barrier, contradictory with aegis, also scales with healing power. It does not fit well. 1 sec distortion? I think it is too strong and not thematic with guardian. Flat out damage reduction, not a bad idea, but I do not think this something that exists in GW2 on any class. Boons? Not damage buff boons. Protection and stability are already provided by virtues. Resistance? Redundant. So... a second charge it is. In long fights would default to base effect anyway. At least core guardian gets 1 more front loaded aegis. Not sure if this would be too strong for PvP. If it is (I do not think so), it could be limited to 1 in PvP, which is what we currently have..

RI will just add a charge on both.

I do not think Virtue of Resolve needs a buff in PvP. I would increase it from 1,600 to 2,000 base in PvE. Kinda like WoR is a bit stronger in PvE than PvP.

Virtues line:

Unscathed Contender, when aegis is consumed, gain 10% increased damage for 5 sec. This trait always lacked consistency, in every game mode. This gives it a bit more reliability. Instead of losing the entire 20%, gain 10% for few seconds. Also, gives you a reason to consider a skill like retreat.

Inspiring Virtue, increase from 10 to 15%. PvE only.

Battle Presence, in addition to what it does it provides Frost aura. I think this gives a bit of usability, without breaking the Tome or WoR. Could be limited only to core? Dunno if that is possible.

@otto.5684 said:Unscathed Contender, when aegis is consumed, gain 10% increased damage for 5 sec. This trait always lacked consistency, in every game mode. This gives it a bit more reliability. Instead of losing the entire 20%, gain 10% for few seconds. Also, gives you a reason to consider a skill like retreat.

I like it. On top of your proposal I'd like to add in another function for the guardian to periodically gain Might while having Aegis on them, in order to retain its current function for people who enjoy it.

As for the changes in Virtue skills, I really doubt ArenaNet would allow us such luxury to enjoy their active effects while retaining the passive ones at the same time. Maybe bind the charge effect with their associated traits as a balance factor? I mean, we do have one grandmaster tier major traits for each virtues.

Also, if ArenaNet is going to rework the Virtue spec, please also look into the hammer trait and skills!

@Virtuality.8351 said:As for the changes in Virtue skills, I really doubt ArenaNet would allow us such luxury to enjoy their active effects while retaining the passive ones at the same time. Maybe bind the charge effect with their associated traits as a balance factor? I mean, we do have one grandmaster tier major traits for each virtues.

Actually we already have a trait that does do this but it's on the FB, the Grand Master trait Loremaster along with reducing Tome skills recharge rate by 20% also allows us to retain the Virtues Passive effects while they are on cool down , now that being said I have always thought that maintaining the Passives on cool down should be replaced with something else in the Loremaster trait and the effect should be made available in the Core Guardian line as either its own trait or as part of another trait but that is just my opinion.

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

@Virtuality.8351 said:As for the changes in Virtue skills, I really doubt ArenaNet would allow us such luxury to enjoy their active effects while retaining the passive ones at the same time. Maybe bind the charge effect with their associated traits as a balance factor? I mean, we do have one grandmaster tier major traits for each virtues.

Actually we already have a trait that does do this but it's on the FB, the Grand Master trait Loremaster along with reducing Tome skills recharge rate by 20% also allows us to retain the Virtues Passive effects while they are on cool down , now that being said I have always thought that maintaining the Passives on cool down should be replaced with something else in the Loremaster trait and the effect should be made available in the Core Guardian line as either its own trait or as part of another trait but that is just my opinion.

Before Feb, I would have said that giving DH the ability to maintain the passive and active effect of virtues, heresy. Now.. I do not think it even matters :/

@Virtuality.8351 As Runi said, FB already does maintain the active and passive of virtues. So, it is not new or game breaking concept. The problem with binding the charges behind virtues, is... you time them to virtues line. VoC provides 1 aegis on 45 sec. That is it. FB can provide AOE aegis like it is going out of style. Kinda same for VoJ. It is... terrible.

Hammer. Poor hammer. It is not an issue with the trait at all. The trait is actually solid. Hammer is what sucks.

i feel like DH really needs improved virtues.Maybe change all Dragonhunter's virtues to be chain attacks, 3 part attacks to make them different from base and FB.Similar to how the f1 virute already has a 2 chain attack (throwing of the spear and pull). but make all 3 virtues 3-chained attacksIt's already possible since F1 is a chained attacked they would just need to expand on them,For the f1, the 3rd move should be an aoe roar that dazes or fears and cripples foes that you pull close or something else damaging.More cleansing and healing, then AoE boons on f2,and for f3 AoE barrier, Retaltion, protection and stability.This will mean they have to change the traits to DH slightly. Or have them only effect the first skill in the chain (keeping them the same)

For base guardian's virtues i do think the virtues need to an edit, they don't feel strong, only f2 is worth using to clear condi. other 2 don't feel useful at all.Give f1 a pulsing AoE burn upon use in addition to its effect of giving you 5 hits of burning. So its an actual damaging attack.A strenght the healing power to f2.Change f3 to an small personal absorb protectile ward for 3 or 4 seconds that gives aegis to allies

Currently core guard is the strongest of the three specs in PvP

@Tharan.9085 said:Currently core guard is the strongest of the three specs in PvP

As I mentioned, this primarily from PvE perspective. Core guardian in sPvP is a C tier build at best, wither power or condi. It is not better than FB support, but even FB support is not doing well now.

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:Currently core guard is the strongest of the three specs in PvP

Core Guardian is currently one of the strongest sidenoder in the games, calling it C tier is a bad joke

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:Currently core guard is the strongest of the three specs in PvP

Ya just like DH was over powered. I guess all these guardian players and sPvP forums are smoking the good stuff. Sure though, you know better.

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:Currently core guard is the strongest of the three specs in PvP

Tell me 3 sidenoders that beat core guard

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:Currently core guard is the strongest of the three specs in PvP

On equal skill level:

Condi rev.Probably power rev tooFBSBHoloScrapperCore rangerCore necroIf we have unlimited time, core condi mesmer

And it is not unexpected.You have no CC. 1 push back if you have shield.You have max 3 CC breaks. And taking one of them hurts your damage output. More likely than not you will have 2 breaks on 30+ sec CD.You have terrible mobility. And no means to get out of combat.You have no cover condis. Enemies with good condi removal can easy trample all over you. If you are playing power... no damage.And even if you can do well holding a point for a while (surely can) or pushing enemies off it, getting to the point against highly skilled team will be an issue. You are slow. You aint going to surprise enemies if they have a smidge of map awareness.

I play condi core guardian, a lot. It is solid against semi skilled players and has significant healing and damage. But at higher levels it has no tools for... much beside damage. I still think it is guardian best solo que option. FB damage sucks. You are highly dependent on supporting players, that may or may not be good. If you are skilled, you have the damage to torch less skilled players. Power variants lack the damage to do much, and that is the only thing core guardian has to begin with.

This is digressing from this thread too much anyway. As I said in the first sentence, in the first post, this is primarily for PvE. If you think it is great for sPvP, good for you. I am not going to convince you otherwise. But, unless you see something played in spades, in sPvP, it is not a hidden gem, it does not work well. I see burn core, every once in a while. I have not seen core power once in... I do not even remember, beside me playing it 2-3 games in the last few week.

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:Currently core guard is the strongest of the three specs in PvP

Condi rev wins probably, power rev looses, FB looses, SB looses, Holo gets hardcountered, knockback scrapper wins but FT scrapper looses, core Ranger is a stall, core necro might win and condi mesmer looses. Just because you are Bad at the game and playing a suboptimal build doesnt mean a spec is bad.

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Tharan.9085 said:Currently core guard is the strongest of the three specs in PvP

I like you ignored everything I wrote and that thread is primarily for PvE. But I am bad I guess.

I wish there is an anti trolling tools to prevent useless posts likes these on forums. I could report it, but it is not that level of bad. You are the best guardian PvP player out there and no one understands guardian as you do. Now buzz off.

Tharan please stop hijacking the thread, from the beginning Otto stated that this was about PvE. If you want to discuss PvP start a thread yourself to bring up your opinion. I'm sure you have some interesting points to bring up and we can all respect your view or not but sidetracking another persons topic entirely in no way gives any validity to your argument.

@otto :
Virtues Line is used literally every day by every guardian in WVW (including burn guardian with Permeating Wrath) and it's even an alternate version of the builds on snowcrows, I have no idea what you are on about.

Battle Presence does not need frost aura. I think in general auras are going to be detuned soon because there's little to no counterplay besides not hitting the person that has it.

The Unscathed Contender suggestion is probably the only one I see happening, and the Virtue of Justice change for Core Guardian only.

If you look at the Lucky-Noobs realistic numbers and Snowcrows as well, it's just obvious that the only two things that would need tweaking are the damage loss when aegis is not up as well as when the burning is not applied by the Justice virtue (because you have 7% damage bonus vs burning enemies). There's no reason to rework whole lines or a bunch of skills and traits to fix such a minor pitfall as that.

This downside is not nearly as bad due to the aegis boon application of quickness Firebrands and the low attack rate of some boss fights, unlike something that is contingent on a rare condition like Danger Time.

@Infusion.7149 I am WvW illiterate so I trust what you say.

In PvE virtues is not ran in any build. Neither is core. The idea is bringing core closer to FB and DH, but not retake them. Also, add virtues in the mix as a line to be considered by FB and DH dps, which it currently is not. I do not see an issue of being able to use the active on part of VoJ every 20 secs while maintaining the passive. I was also considering core burn, which has zero flexibility to use VoJ active at all. And it surely is core only. Justice having charges for DH or FB is beyond broken lol. This is why the charge is on the base VoJ skill not as part of the virtues.

Courage It is more of a PvP thing. Having charges or not won’t impact PvE. VoC is so bad. So terribly bad. 1 aegis? Weapons skills do that far more frequently. Heck, both shield and mace provide aegis on 20 and 15 secs + protection. MOS can do that on 9.5 sec CD traited. Again, the 2 charges would tied to base virtue, has nothing to do with DH or FB.

FYI, I only made minor changes on 3 traits in cities line. this is not a rework by any stretch. And one of them is changing a number for 10 to 15% only I. PvE.

I think the unscathed contender change and VoJ 2 charges are neat changes. The courage change and battle presence are... not. It was more of: “what could change without buffing DH or FB, and be broken?” These are the best changes I could think of. I am sure someone else could have a better idea. If you have suggestions (or anyone) I am more than happy to incorporate in my OP. As if Anet will ever make changes to core virtues ?

@RUNICBLACK.7630 said:Tharan please stop hijacking the thread, from the beginning Otto stated that this was about PvE. If you want to discuss PvP start a thread yourself to bring up your opinion. I'm sure you have some interesting points to bring up and we can all respect your view or not but sidetracking another persons topic entirely in no way gives any validity to your argument.

Even in PvP he does not have anything useful to talk about. He always talks about guardian as a master class. And tell you, any specific build being discussed, is the best thing to ever grace pvp. Even though probably him and 3 people play it. If you try to logic with him, he will just say your bad or something. I see his posts in spvp forums all the time. It is all the same.

In any case, I try to avoid spvp discussions now. Since Feb, spvp has major fundamental design flaws that talking about one class or meta changes is kinda pointless. It is like being on a sinking boat and getting upset that you got wet cuz it is raining.

@otto.5684 said:@"Infusion.7149" I am WvW illiterate so I trust what you say.

In PvE virtues is not ran in any build. Neither is core. The idea is bringing core closer to FB and DH, but not retake them. Also, add virtues in the mix as a line to be considered by FB and DH dps, which it currently is not. I do not see an issue of being able to use the active on part of VoJ every 20 secs while maintaining the passive. I was also considering core burn, which has zero flexibility to use VoJ active at all. And it surely is core only. Justice having charges for DH or FB is beyond broken lol. This is why the charge is on the base VoJ skill not as part of the virtues.

Courage It is more of a PvP thing. Having charges or not won’t impact PvE. VoC is so bad. So terribly bad. 1 aegis? Weapons skills do that far more frequently. Heck, both shield and mace provide aegis on 20 and 15 secs + protection. MOS can do that on 9.5 sec CD traited. Again, the 2 charges would tied to base virtue, has nothing to do with DH or FB.

FYI, I only made minor changes on 3 traits in cities line. this is not a rework by any stretch. And one of them is changing a number for 10 to 15% only I. PvE.

I think the unscathed contender change and VoJ 2 charges are neat changes. The courage change and battle presence are... not. It was more of: “what could change without buffing DH or FB, and be broken?” These are the best changes I could think of. I am sure someone else could have a better idea. If you have suggestions (or anyone) I am more than happy to incorporate in my OP. As if Anet will ever make changes to core virtues ?

????Core and a variant of DH runs Virtues right now. I'm not even big on PVE and I found that in 2 seconds.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/guardian/power/https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/dragonhunter/power/#pills-Virtues-trait-line

https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/core-guardianhttps://lucky-noobs.com/builds/power-dragonhunter# (2nd tab = virtues)

See team comp for Samarog and Cardinal Adina on LN as well as the Gorseval comp on Snowcrows. Both sites have core guardians.

Where are you basing your opinions from?

Healbrand uses Virtues as well.

And that's just considering raid and fractal environments, where builds are usually ultra-specialised, often towards single-target DPS. Taking the Virtues line pays dividends in solo and open world PvE. It's just that when you're looking to maximise DPS in a specialised DPS role in raids, fractals, strikes, and so on, Zeal and Radiance are more important.

I don't think there's a need for charges on virtues. Making Unscathed Contender provide a lingering bonus after Aegis is lost is probably worth considering. The others, I'm not convinced about. Putting too many damage modifiers into Virtues could just end up making it so that some other traitline ends up being the traitline that people just can't quite manage to fit into DPS-specialised builds.

@Infusion.7149 said:

@otto.5684 said:@Infusion.7149 I am WvW illiterate so I trust what you say.

In PvE virtues is not ran in any build. Neither is core.

The idea is bringing core closer to FB and DH, but not retake them. Also, add virtues in the mix as a line to be considered by FB and DH dps, which it currently is not. I do not see an issue of being able to use the active on part of VoJ every 20 secs while maintaining the passive. I was also considering core burn, which has zero flexibility to use VoJ active at all. And it surely is core only. Justice having charges for DH or FB is beyond broken lol. This is why the charge is on the base VoJ skill not as part of the virtues.

Courage It is more of a PvP thing. Having charges or not won’t impact PvE. VoC is so bad. So terribly bad. 1 aegis? Weapons skills do that far more frequently. Heck, both shield and mace provide aegis on 20 and 15 secs + protection. MOS can do that on 9.5 sec CD traited. Again, the 2 charges would tied to base virtue, has nothing to do with DH or FB.

FYI, I only made minor changes on 3 traits in cities line. this is not a rework by any stretch. And one of them is changing a number for 10 to 15% only I. PvE.

I think the unscathed contender change and VoJ 2 charges are neat changes. The courage change and battle presence are... not. It was more of: “what could change without buffing DH or FB, and be broken?” These are the best changes I could think of. I am sure someone else could have a better idea. If you have suggestions (or anyone) I am more than happy to incorporate in my OP. As if Anet will ever make changes to core virtues ?

Dps DH runs radiance/zeal/DH. There is no chance to run virtues here. Actually, there is not a room to even change a single trait. Unless you are not using GS. Not sure why would you play power to being with.

Dps FB runs radiance/zeal/FB. There is a bit of room here for virtues compared to zeal, but zeal tends to run a head in most situations. Virtues is better against things that move a lot. Zeal is better against stationary stuff. The changes I had will not even change the scale in favor of virtues here.

Support FB typically runs radiance/honor/ FB.

No reason to run core guardian. At all. DH and FB will always run ahead in dps. And most core guardian raid dps builds assume 100% uptime on aegis. GL with that. There is no core support, since you cannot provide 100% quickness (or anywhere close).

These are the main PvE builds. Radiance is a must and zeal is better than virtues for dps.

@draxynnic.3719 On the zeal/virtues comparison for OW. Power builds should never ever run virtues. You will have no uptime on unscathed contender, at all. zeal damage modifiers are consistent. And GS does not work without zeal. The power build is too locked. Even if you play scepter/sword Zeal is better.

The condi build does have flexibility. There are advantages for running virtues. Better sustainability. Damage is a bit more reliable. But it’s SoJ.... so much damage to not have it. Still, it is fairly close run, especially solo.

Reminder, if we skip the 5% buff to inspiring virtue (not big and not necessary), none of the changes I suggest would result in damage buffs from equipping virtue line. It is the core virtues themselves that I suggest get buffed. I do not aim to change or buff DH or FB dps builds.

I have been preaching this for over two years...https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/633039Remember this otto?

@otto.5684 said:Starting from sPvP, this will dominate sPvP to no end. It also means virtues line will be manditory in every build. PvE, I do not think it will matter much. Though if you can maintain 100% uptime on aegis, core guardian out dpses DH in power builds.

I do not think ammo is the way to go. I think straight buffs will work better:

VoJ, base CD 16 secs.VoR, bass CD 25 secs.VoJ, adds 1,000 toughness for 5 secs. Maybe, reduce base CD to 40 secs.

@Infusion.7149 said:

@otto.5684 said:@Infusion.7149 I am WvW illiterate so I trust what you say.

In PvE virtues is not ran in any build. Neither is core.

The idea is bringing core closer to FB and DH, but not retake them. Also, add virtues in the mix as a line to be considered by FB and DH dps, which it currently is not. I do not see an issue of being able to use the active on part of VoJ every 20 secs while maintaining the passive. I was also considering core burn, which has zero flexibility to use VoJ active at all. And it surely is core only. Justice having charges for DH or FB is beyond broken lol. This is why the charge is on the base VoJ skill not as part of the virtues.

Courage It is more of a PvP thing. Having charges or not won’t impact PvE. VoC is so bad. So terribly bad. 1 aegis? Weapons skills do that far more frequently. Heck, both shield and mace provide aegis on 20 and 15 secs + protection. MOS can do that on 9.5 sec CD traited. Again, the 2 charges would tied to base virtue, has nothing to do with DH or FB.

FYI, I only made minor changes on 3 traits in cities line. this is not a rework by any stretch. And one of them is changing a number for 10 to 15% only I. PvE.

I think the unscathed contender change and VoJ 2 charges are neat changes. The courage change and battle presence are... not. It was more of: “what could change without buffing DH or FB, and be broken?” These are the best changes I could think of. I am sure someone else could have a better idea. If you have suggestions (or anyone) I am more than happy to incorporate in my OP. As if Anet will ever make changes to core virtues ?

I agree For Power DH run radiance/zeal/DH.I wouldn't run Virtues over Radiance on a Power build, snow crows heavily min max everything, a normal player PvE would never get that damage output.Unscathed Contender is too frincky and you can't guarntee you'll have aegis all the time, one hit that aegis is gone, and bye-bye 20% damage modifier. Especially in raids where EVERYTHING is constantly hitting you, how are you suppose to keep aegis on you at all times? its not a build i'd reccomend to anyone.Run radiance instead of virtues you can get access reataltion thru GS4 and one of the signets if you need it. Other allies will provide enough retalition anyway. Don't use the virtues traitline on DH.

Yes. There is a power core guardian build for PvE its not very friendly in general if you want to max out your damage due to Unscathed Contender and limited damage options, you are just better off Running DH while using radiance/zeal/DH along with traps and SoJ. The damage modifiers are just much easier to manage. Using the spear (f1) +10% damage modifier and hitting cripped foes +10% damage. there is your 20% damage modifier without having to rely on a boon that can be easily striped off you.Not saying you can't power core guardian you do get a tiny bit extra damage if you can maintain it, but in my view its not worth the trouble. Virtue line is very is weird damage wise.

I don't know a lot about Firebrand since I don't use it and stand it and can't be bothered to unlock it (i played it in beta didn't like it, I prefer core and DH)But from friends that use condition firebrand they use radiance/zeal/FB not virtues this because you NEED torch for condition firebrand and its trait also the amplied wrath helps. Zeal has a few things that help condition wise, like the condition trait and armoury trait. I know the condi Firebrand orginally ran virtues/zeal/FB because of premating wrath but when torch got redone, so did its trait so using the radiance line now gives more DPS than virtues.Power Firebrand isn't really a thing, You can use firebrand with power but you are just WAY better off using Dragonhunter. You can use power support FB but apperently condition version does more damage. Firebrand wasn't meant for power.

The only type of FB or DH I know that uses Virtues is the support/healing kind due to the passive healing.To be honest I think the Virtues traits just all over the place. I think the traits need to tweaked a bit.

I'll put my 2-cents in if It's even worth that much. Before we begin, I want to exclaim that the only things people really complain about guardian are the follows:

Passive burning, retal and symbols. With this being said, what I'm about to say in regards to changes WILL make the game far less oppressive for those fighting against this nonsense while ALSO making Guardian more fun and viable still.

In regards to core virtue's, I'd argue that baseline, It's one of the most underwhelming class-mechanics in the game. They're literally weak signets. A tiny bit of burning, small heal and 2 clears with 1 stack of aegis on proc is an absolute joke. There's a reason why a lot of people who run burn builds never pop their f1 virtue.

My suggestions are as follow. Again, these aren't set in stone for what I'd like to see but rather a starting-point

Baseline: Inspired virtue is now baseline. MAYBE retain the passive's after activating them but you'd have to replace loremaster.

Virtue of Justice: Remove the passive burning proc and replace it with cripple. This would do two things: First and foremost, it would remove the oppressive nature that is passive condi-application. Secondly, It would give Guardian much needed assistance as a way of sticking to their target. Obviously you'd have to redo some traits/skills to promote a more active play style for condi-application but it would be far healthier. Reduce cd to 15.

Virtue of Resolve: Up the base-line condi-removal count to 3. reduce cd to 20.

Virtue of Courage: Grant a small amount of barrier in addition to aegis. Reduce Aegis refresh to 30, reduce cd to 30.

These are definitely not final nor am I even thinking they'll be considered by the devs. It's just my list of what could help guardian virtue's but also not be oppressive to enemies.

As I stated above in what you quoted, I don't think that an Unscathed Contender change (the suggestion about 10% when aegis isn't up) would be overpowered : I only question if it's necessary. However, stating that there is absolutely NO build that uses virtues is really far from the truth. In addition, when DH is far ahead of other classes (forget about specs , look at the big picture) and about on par with thief when hitboxes are small, you'd just end up getting DH and FB nerfed in doing so. The Arenanet balancing works like a pendulum , you see it so often I don't know why you aren't aware of it. That's also why I play every class.

In its current iteration , Permeating Wrath (which is in Virtues) could even be considered borderline oppressive in WvW if condi clears and passive regen weren't so prevalent because it has no cooldown so if you attack with something that cleaves 3 targets it's burning every hit with no reliance on criticals or anything of that sort unlike elementalist , ranger, necro, or warrior. Because the majority of firebrands are running Absolute Resolution support builds with Battle Presence , tempests run Soothing Mist aura support builds, and scrappers pump out heals based off boons (which are plentiful from heralds at all times) that isn't the case.

@otto.5684 said:Dps DH runs radiance/zeal/DH. There is no chance to run virtues here. Actually, there is not a room to even change a single trait. Unless you are not using GS. Not sure why would you play power to being with.

Dps FB runs radiance/zeal/FB. There is a bit of room here for virtues compared to zeal, but zeal tends to run a head in most situations. Virtues is better against things that move a lot. Zeal is better against stationary stuff. The changes I had will not even change the scale in favor of virtues here.

Support FB typically runs radiance/honor/ FB.

No reason to run core guardian. At all. DH and FB will always run ahead in dps. And most core guardian raid dps builds assume 100% uptime on aegis. GL with that. There is no core support, since you cannot provide 100% quickness (or anywhere close).

These are the main PvE builds. Radiance is a must and zeal is better than virtues for dps.

@"draxynnic.3719" On the zeal/virtues comparison for OW. Power builds should never ever run virtues. You will have no uptime on unscathed contender, at all. zeal damage modifiers are consistent. And GS does not work without zeal. The power build is too locked. Even if you play scepter/sword Zeal is better.

The condi build does have flexibility. There are advantages for running virtues. Better sustainability. Damage is a bit more reliable. But it’s SoJ.... so much damage to not have it. Still, it is fairly close run, especially solo.

Reminder, if we skip the 5% buff to inspiring virtue (not big and not necessary), none of the changes I suggest would result in damage buffs from equipping virtue line. It is the core virtues themselves that I suggest get buffed. I do not aim to change or buff DH or FB dps builds.

Not every spec or class has to be top of everything , especially when Guardian is the backbone of PVE right now due to quickness and aegis uptime via Mantra of Solace. If we used that mentality then Thief needs to be buffed in PVE before Core guard. There's nothing stopping the average player from running a more forgiving Zeal+Radiance setup with DH.

Easy math: if a Core guardian does 37K/38K DPS per LuckyNoobs and Unscathed Contender is 20% , you're dropping to ~30K at worst. Hardly unplayable especially when necros have been complaining about <33K DPS for years and condi scourge has been sitting at ~ 28K for years as well.In fact, on the page for Gorseval where snowcrows suggests using a Core guard, the Core guard "benchmark" is 23K (21K average) while DH is at 22K (20K average). The page for Cardinal Adina has Core guard on par with DH as well.

Also you're mistaken about support firebrand just like you were mistaken about the "meta" DPS core guardian. It runs Virtues for Battle Presence, just like pretty much every full support FB in WVW.https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/guardian/firebrand/heal/

@crazyhuskyIf you can't even "be bothered" (wow, really?) to learn the dominant spec in WVW and PVE right now, how can you expect your opinion be taken seriously? If you don't have a baseline for what is "good" or "meta" , then you essentially suggest buffing things for the sake of buffing things. If you're casual enough not to try an entire spec, why would you care about if a spec you use does slightly below average or absolute top DPS? That's like saying "I want to play condi core engineer in fractals because holo is too hard" or "I want to play core staff ele and do as much damage as full zerk sword weaver". That's not how the world works.

In addition, the ability of a competent firebrand with mantra of solace and shield offhand to keep your passive aegis uptime quite high is very realistic and there's something called strafing, jumping, and dodging. The speedclear comps are running multiple firebrands at once on top of that when the boss attacks maybe every 6-14s. Due to a 12s recharge on mantra of solace procs before alacrity or the mantra trait (Weighty Terms), it's very possible to keep aegis up if there's boon duration. Cardinal Adina attacks every 7.5s.

Even on the LN page it states: "If the (Core) Guardian can’t manage to keep their Aegis uptime, they can switch to Dragonhunter." on Samarog which attacks every 3.39s.

In fractals, if the boss is CCed and the defiance bar is broken, it doesn't even attack at all.

If it were up to me , all the classes with strong support would be nerfed down to necro level damage but Arenanet isn't going to do that because players would riot.

@"Falseprophet.1502" said:I have been preaching this for over two years...https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/633039Remember this otto?Lol , his words come back to bite him.

@Arken.3725 said:I'll put my 2-cents in if It's even worth that much. Before we begin, I want to exclaim that the only things people really complain about guardian are the follows:

Passive burning, retal and symbols. With this being said, what I'm about to say in regards to changes WILL make the game far less oppressive for those fighting against this nonsense while ALSO making Guardian more fun and viable still.

In regards to core virtue's, I'd argue that baseline, It's one of the most underwhelming class-mechanics in the game. They're literally weak signets. A tiny bit of burning, small heal and 2 clears with 1 stack of aegis on proc is an absolute joke. There's a reason why a lot of people who run burn builds never pop their f1 virtue.

My suggestions are as follow. Again, these aren't set in stone for what I'd like to see but rather a starting-point

Baseline: Inspired virtue is now baseline. MAYBE retain the passive's after activating them but you'd have to replace loremaster.

Virtue of Justice: Remove the passive burning proc and replace it with cripple. This would do two things: First and foremost, it would remove the oppressive nature that is passive condi-application. Secondly, It would give Guardian much needed assistance as a way of sticking to their target. Obviously you'd have to redo some traits/skills to promote a more active play style for condi-application but it would be far healthier. Reduce cd to 15.

Virtue of Resolve: Up the base-line condi-removal count to 3. reduce cd to 20.

Virtue of Courage: Grant a small amount of barrier in addition to aegis. Reduce Aegis refresh to 30, reduce cd to 30.

These are definitely not final nor am I even thinking they'll be considered by the devs. It's just my list of what could help guardian virtue's but also not be oppressive to enemies.So you want to nerf guardian by 7% in damage in PVE (especially fractals) then. Because without a decent uptime on burning you won't be getting the 7% damage vs burning enemies. Also a passive soft CC would just be completely toxic to play against in PVP because mobility is super important in PVP. Arenanet have stated they cannot do functional changes , only PVE/PVP/WVW splits based off numbers which is why we have 300 second recharge traits that are still unusable for the most part.

The thread is about PVE by the way.

@Infusion.7149 Again, core is not ran over DH or FB dps, cuz you will not have any consistency in keep unscathed contender. When you provide the raid numbers, they assume 100% uptime of modifiers, which you can never do running virtues. Zeal and radiance modifiers are up all the time in PvE, and most of the time in PvP.

I dunno why you keep bring WvW, FB and permuting wraith. I have not made a single suggestion that impact these. As I said I do not WvW... so not much I can say about this topic. And if there tons of things that I do think should be nerfed, or changed for guardian.

Zeal buffs to symbols.Zeal making permuting wraith proc faster.VoJ dealing double damage in sPvP.The mantras. All of them need modification in both PvP and PvE. MoS should never have been able to provide aegis on 9.5 sec CD. Even in PvE this is ridculos. And Anet solution to just nerf the healing was dumb. Cuz it only hurt none support builds.Instant rez should be removed.

But that does not mean there are other stuff that needs to buffed or fixed. See.. I would like the virtues damage modifiers to be consistent. That would be nice... but it is not. Not even remotely.

When you run support FB in PvE, most of the time you will run radiance, better known as Quickbrand. You could run the virtue variant for healing, but... why? Unless your group is struggling in survivability, you are dropping team damage for no good reason.

And, I want to be clear, this is guardian forums and guardian suggestions. I do think there are many classes and many changes that do take priority, but this is not the place to discuss them. Necro can barely pull 30K. They should be ahead. But, feel free to post in necro forums about that. It is worth bringing-up. It has nothing to do with this thread though.