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No "kp" for CM fractals. Is that gonna increase toxicity?

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  • @Cerioth.7062 said:

    @Janitsu.6284 said:

    @ParadoX.3124 said:
    Title is the new kp

    Titles are bad KP, they can be bought with ease and won't reflect anyone's skill (especially in the case of titles similar to LNHB or the new undying title, where you can get carried by bringing more healers).

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    KP is not an accurate indicator of skill, however, it's the best that people had. I don't think it's discriminatory, everyone has the same chances to acquire said KP and are free to join any groups with the KP that they had. It was literally the easiest solution to the issue that is the lacking LFG system that doesn't give you any idea of anyone's actual skill without using items that can be count as KP. This is an issue in GW2, since a lot of people would rather join groups of their skill level with ease, than join a group of lower skill level and have to do more work for their rewards and for the content.

    Faked KP does not reflect a person's skill, either. I reckon the percentage of people faking KP is similar to those buying their titles.

    I think it's harder to fake KP due to the fact that you'll need a macro to do so convincingly. The other issue with titles is the fact that once you have done it once, you'll already have the title and therefore it only shows you that you have done it once.

    Not that I don't agree, KP is a bad system due to the faking of KP and the fact that you get an RNG amount of it (my friend and I who started doing CMs at the same time had a KP difference of around 50 at the 60 day mark).

    minecrafter

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a certain amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Your theory is also very easily disproven. Gating happens by necessity. If every player or the vast majority could play wihtout a HFB, this would not require gating. The fact that most players can't or won't (do to what ever reason) has lead to further gating.

    As such, your understanding of how KP are used is limited or incorrectly explained here. Players certainly do not gate 300+ KP because they assume other are to incompetent to clear the CM. They do because they want to run without a healer most of the time and communicating this.

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a certain amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Your theory is also very easily disproven. Gating happens by necessity. If every player or the vast majority could play wihtout a HFB, this would not require gating. The fact that most players can't or won't (do to what ever reason) has lead to further gating.

    As such, your understanding of how KP are used is limited or incorrectly explained here. Players certainly do not gate 300+ KP because they assume other are to incompetent to clear the CM. They do because they want to run without a healer most of the time and communicating this.

    ahah, each time my friends that have 1000kp carry me during the weekend, they bring a qfb and i become a carpet as a weaver if a take at least one attack because i have no healer to get back my hp, but the fight is going so fast you basicly do every cm in 10-20 minute, but that can't happend if one of the dps don't do enough dps (or one of the buffer that don't give the buff) to instant phase the bosses, you are not supposed to get hitted (or fail to evade the attack that can't be skip without big burst).

    Believe me i have 50kp now, and i cleary see heaven/earth or night/day between the skill of my little 50kp skill and the big 1000kp players.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a ceratin amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Yeah

    I'm just pointing out, you'd be surprised that there ARE people who want to play at that level who could play at that level, but they can't because they only have 20 ESS and the older players gate them, rather than teach them in a single run how to do it.

    It may have taken the first gen of fractal players 300 KPs to be able to play at that level because they had to engineer the knowledge on their own. But now that gen 1 is at that level, they could be teaching that knowledge to players and allowing them access to it much much earlier than 300 KPs, but instead they choose to imagine that it would impossible for anyone to keep up with them unless those players also had 300 KPs.

    Consider the idea behind that.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a ceratin amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Yeah

    I'm just pointing out, you'd be surprised that there ARE people who want to play at that level who could play at that level, but they can't because they only have 20 ESS and the older players gate them, rather than teach them in a single run how to do it.

    It may have taken the first gen of fractal players 300 KPs to be able to play at that level because they had to engineer the knowledge on their own. But now that gen 1 is at that level, they could be teaching that knowledge to players and allowing them access to it much much earlier than 300 KPs, but instead they choose to imagine that it would impossible for anyone to keep up with them unless those players also had 300 KPs.

    Consider the idea behind that.

    What about the older players who do not want to teach newer players and want to get their dailies done in one easy go? I am not saying that teaching isn't a good idea and I am all for teaching people, but most of the time it's not worth it for a few reasons:

    1. people who want to learn only want to learn to a certain extent where they are comfortable in the dailies (therefore, usually don't want to consider doing fractals without a healer for example)
    2. it takes a lot of time to actually get people comfortable on their prestacking, precasting and openers. It takes a lot of pulls and a lot of time; something I want to avoid in dailies
    3. you need consistency for fractals, if you are teaching someone, in ideal world you'd be running with them daily for a few weeks. If the setting changes too often, it sort of waters down the teaching. This is why teaching pugs is rather annoying and why I'd recommend training discords and guild for that reason

    I think that it is important to acknowledge the fact that some people just want simple, easy dailies the way that they want them. KP used to (to some extent) signal how people want to do them and at what skill level. Was it perfect? No, not by any means. Was it okay-ish at what it did? Yes. Since there was no alternative to it really.

    minecrafter

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭
    edited September 20, 2020

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a certain amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Your theory is also very easily disproven. Gating happens by necessity. If every player or the vast majority could play wihtout a HFB, this would not require gating. The fact that most players can't or won't (do to what ever reason) has lead to further gating.

    As such, your understanding of how KP are used is limited or incorrectly explained here. Players certainly do not gate 300+ KP because they assume other are to incompetent to clear the CM. They do because they want to run without a healer most of the time and communicating this.

    ahah, each time my friends that have 1000kp carry me during the weekend, they bring a qfb and i become a carpet as a weaver if a take at least one attack because i have no healer to get back my hp, but the fight is going so fast you basicly do every cm in 10-20 minute, but that only happend if one of the dps don't do enough dps (or one of the buffer that don't give the buff) to instant phase the bosses, you are not supposed to get hitted (or fail to evade the attack that can't be skip without big burst).

    Believe me i have 50kp now, and i cleary see heaven/earth or night/day between the skill of my little 50kp skill and the big 1000kp players.

    The most noticable difference i see while playing with pug with 50kp and my friends that have 1000kp:

    • All the cc is instant with the 1000kp guys, which mean a really high burst of damage which lead to the 2th point opposed of 50kp group that don't instant it (good luck to instant cc endolyss at the start of the fight when you're are in a 50kp group)
    • The boss never have the chance to really attack us as he is always cc or doing his phasing
    • No one get hit by aoe, attack or others thing, opposed to 50kp or people always get hit by things, but they don't care because they play with an healer
    • People know how to react to other people fails
    • the fight is 10x time faster
    • 1/3 of the time i'm under the bs dps, (my god, even with 50-70k burst i do, high kp bs player are monster), not speaking when they play dps while when i play 50kp pug, i'm always top dps from far away, but i do way less damage because of the slow cc and boon that are not perma because of some mechanics).

    and a lot of others things, but as a player that play regulary with really high kp player and low kp group, i really see the difference between skills, sure, at 50-100kp, the group can clear the cm nicely (but slowly compared to high kp player), but the players that say that the skill stop improving after that and it's usless to ask for more just never seen high kp player group

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    Now sadly all the new players won't be accepted to my parties because they have no unstable cosmic essences. Now this is unhealthy for the game, I am sorry that I have to do this.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    how do you train people if they rather complain about good player no carrying them instead of going to work the rotation on golem and make/ join training. some just want the reward without putting any effort.
    funny enough most player that get high amout of kp is player that at some point decided to train instead of blaming kps

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a ceratin amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Yeah

    I'm just pointing out, you'd be surprised that there ARE people who want to play at that level who could play at that level, but they can't because they only have 20 ESS and the older players gate them, rather than teach them in a single run how to do it.

    It may have taken the first gen of fractal players 300 KPs to be able to play at that level because they had to engineer the knowledge on their own. But now that gen 1 is at that level, they could be teaching that knowledge to players and allowing them access to it much much earlier than 300 KPs, but instead they choose to imagine that it would impossible for anyone to keep up with them unless those players also had 300 KPs.

    Consider the idea behind that.

    actually it's quite different, kp gate are constantly increasing not decreasing. If too many player with 200 kp cannot handle solo healing its raised up to 250, when 250 get filled with too many people that cannot stay alive its raised up to 300 and so on. it follows the gameplay not player kp amount. most of day 1 player are over 4k ess by now and there is no 4k group

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    in guildward2 we can not inspect build, armor stats, and others things .. So answer: no one know.

    Fortunately a hypothetical question can still be answered without a gear inspect feature in gw2. Honestly the two are entirely unrelated.

    ofc we can report a bug, that we can't to it, but more easy relax...

    It is a conscious decision that gw2 does not have this feature, meaning that sending bug reports would simply be you trolling the support staff.

  • Yellow Rainbow.6142Yellow Rainbow.6142 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    Cm + T4 no healer. There is your filter. Why all the fuss. Beside, I have not seen 1 lfg in NA without heal or hb in 4 years unless someone recruiting for static.

  • @Armen.1483 said:
    Now sadly all the new players won't be accepted to my parties because they have no unstable cosmic essences. Now this is unhealthy for the game, I am sorry that I have to do this.

    Dont worry, your kind will be minority soon.

  • Yellow Rainbow.6142Yellow Rainbow.6142 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a certain amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Your theory is also very easily disproven. Gating happens by necessity. If every player or the vast majority could play wihtout a HFB, this would not require gating. The fact that most players can't or won't (do to what ever reason) has lead to further gating.

    As such, your understanding of how KP are used is limited or incorrectly explained here. Players certainly do not gate 300+ KP because they assume other are to incompetent to clear the CM. They do because they want to run without a healer most of the time and communicating this.

    ahah, each time my friends that have 1000kp carry me during the weekend, they bring a qfb and i become a carpet as a weaver if a take at least one attack because i have no healer to get back my hp, but the fight is going so fast you basicly do every cm in 10-20 minute, but that can't happend if one of the dps don't do enough dps (or one of the buffer that don't give the buff) to instant phase the bosses, you are not supposed to get hitted (or fail to evade the attack that can't be skip without big burst).

    Believe me i have 50kp now, and i cleary see heaven/earth or night/day between the skill of my little 50kp skill and the big 1000kp players.

    So 50kps are very capable of playin on high lvl, just need a little jump start?
    You contradicted yourself there.
    Anet should just remove all cc and mechanics from game. Isn't that how high level players prefer anyway? Dps down so you dont have to do any mechanics.

  • SeikeNz.3526SeikeNz.3526 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:
    Cm + T4 no healer. There is your filter. Why all the fuss. Beside, I have not seen 1 lfg in NA without heal or hb in 4 years unless someone recruiting for static.

    they don't do it without healer they are just trying to make fake arguments.

    a healbrand doing perma max stacks of might and helping with other boons + heals, make the party do more damage than a party with 5 dps

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    how do you train people if they rather complain about good player no carrying them instead of going to work the rotation on golem and make/ join training. some just want the reward without putting any effort.
    funny enough most player that get high amout of kp is player that at some point decided to train instead of blaming kps

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a ceratin amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Yeah

    I'm just pointing out, you'd be surprised that there ARE people who want to play at that level who could play at that level, but they can't because they only have 20 ESS and the older players gate them, rather than teach them in a single run how to do it.

    It may have taken the first gen of fractal players 300 KPs to be able to play at that level because they had to engineer the knowledge on their own. But now that gen 1 is at that level, they could be teaching that knowledge to players and allowing them access to it much much earlier than 300 KPs, but instead they choose to imagine that it would impossible for anyone to keep up with them unless those players also had 300 KPs.

    Consider the idea behind that.

    actually it's quite different, kp gate are constantly increasing not decreasing. If too many player with 200 kp cannot handle solo healing its raised up to 250, when 250 get filled with too many people that cannot stay alive its raised up to 300 and so on. it follows the gameplay not player kp amount. most of day 1 player are over 4k ess by now and there is no 4k group

    There is only so far you can evolve with your speed to clear a fractal. The game engine has limits, commonly referred to as benchmarks.

    Forever increasing KPs will not continue to find better and better players who are faster and faster and more efficient. The same people who were once strong when 50 ESS was a high check are the same people who are strong when 250 is is a high check. And by the time they want 250 checks, it's not like they're clearing fractals any faster than they were during the old 50 check, outside of some new patching with added DPS and/or maybe very very slight improvements in some skill rotational that will mater a fraction of minute by the end of a fractal. And that is the very essence of what I am trying to explain here.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Janitsu.6284 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Oldyoung.6109 said:
    KP was never a indicator of skill it was and always will be just a tool for people to be discriminatory.

    and lie with chat code generator.

    Truth is that, people peaked in their knowledge and skill at around 20 ESS. Most players experienced the largest growth between 1 ESS and about 20 ESS. The difference in player skill between a 20 ESS player and a 200 ESS player was so marginally low that it didn't really matter aside from if you really cared that much about completing your nightly fractal run a few minutes faster than normal. And yeah, that mentality brought in a lot of really really unnecessary toxicity actually.

    @Fir.7932 Mark my words, having no ESS KP for this big fake imminence front will reduce toxicity in very significant ways.

    As mentioned in the other thread, the second biggest skill gap is between playing with and without a healer, not in being slightly faster in pressing buttons between 20 ESS and 100 ESS.

    And again, it seems like you encourage the idea that a player couldn't play with no healer unless they had some crazy amount of ESS, which is simply not true at all.

    If players were trained with no healer from the get go, they'd just get used to it, like they do with anything else in any other video game.

    Considering that a player was telling the truth and not fake pinging, KPs do speak for a certain amount of experience, yes. But there is an awful lot of this KP thing in specifically GW2 fractals, that is a big fat illusion of grandeur.

    Sorry it's just true.

    No, I am saying that it requires a ceratin amount of practice, one that will almost never happen at sub 100 KP groups. Even beyond that, many players never try or want to get good enough to play without a healer. As such, at 300+ KP level, players are communicating a specific type of playstyle, and gating for players who want to play the same way. Not gating clear experience.

    Yeah

    I'm just pointing out, you'd be surprised that there ARE people who want to play at that level who could play at that level, but they can't because they only have 20 ESS and the older players gate them, rather than teach them in a single run how to do it.

    It may have taken the first gen of fractal players 300 KPs to be able to play at that level because they had to engineer the knowledge on their own. But now that gen 1 is at that level, they could be teaching that knowledge to players and allowing them access to it much much earlier than 300 KPs, but instead they choose to imagine that it would impossible for anyone to keep up with them unless those players also had 300 KPs.

    Consider the idea behind that.

    What about the older players who do not want to teach newer players and want to get their dailies done in one easy go?

    Yeah I get it. It's worth waiting 5 minutes for your elite group.

    But when things start going over 5 minutes, I've seen people insist on waiting for high KP joins, wasting a lot of our time, when they could just lower the join req to 20 ESS and get moving instead of wasting time.

    This whole high KP thing is more of a placebo effect than anything. I've played with many many different tiers of groups in CM fractals, and I truly find that people are greatly embellishing how much of a difference 20 lfg vs. 250 lfg makes, in terms of safety vs. wipes and kill times. Sure it matters a bit, but not nearly as much as these people act like it does. I mean an old CM 100/99 + T4s & Recs may take a 20 ESS group 45 to 55 minutes to complete, whereas it takes a 250 ESS group 35 to 45 to complete.

    In my opinion it just isn't enough "time saved" to be getting big over with elitism, and I'd be glad to see KPs disappear entirely for fractals, for the sake of groups joining and getting moving more quickly. Now if we were talking raids, no. I believe the KPs matter in raids for several reasons. But getting real big over KPs in fractals is really unnecessary.

    Just my opinion, as I really don't care if I am in a 20 ESS group, a 150+ ESS group, or even a group where guys are attempting the CMs for the first time. I enjoy the challenge to teach & carry the groups tbh.

  • hey if 250 ess is that bad don't join them and let them do their bad thing in their own. not a bid deal creat you group and just go

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    actually it's quite different, kp gate are constantly increasing not decreasing. If too many player with 200 kp cannot handle solo healing its raised up to 250, when 250 get filled with too many people that cannot stay alive its raised up to 300 and so on. it follows the gameplay not player kp amount. most of day 1 player are over 4k ess by now and there is no 4k group

    There is only so far you can evolve with your speed to clear a fractal. The game engine has limits, commonly referred to as benchmarks.

    Forever increasing KPs will not continue to find better and better players who are faster and faster and more efficient. The same people who were once strong when 50 ESS was a high check are the same people who are strong when 250 is is a high check. And by the time they want 250 checks, it's not like they're clearing fractals any faster than they were during the old 50 check, outside of some new patching with added DPS and/or maybe very very slight improvements in some skill rotational that will mater a fraction of minute by the end of a fractal. And that is the very essence of what I am trying to explain here.

    it's not about increasing the player quality it's about maintaining it. kp are earned daily so it constantly increase, making "best player" increase their and "worse player" too at some point player that aren't fit for the job reach the threshold and makes run slower/unreliable. there is few option available at that point:
    -leave lfg and only use friendlist/guild it's an option but it doesn't have to be as everyone if free to use lfg as it please them whether they are kp lovers, kp haters, kp ignorant.
    -block players that aren't performing well and nickname them so they know next time not to keep them. This option works well however whether or not the player improve won't give him a fair chance to playwith you in futur.
    -raise a bit the amount you are asking so you keep the same quality, players that no longer fit your group have few more kill to get and hopefully improve their gameplay by the time the reach it.

    yes few people will reach 400kp level by killing the boss 10 times, yes some will never reach this gameplay even after 10k kill. kp ain't perfect for sure but at the moment there is nothing better available.

    good thing is that as mentionned before everyone is free to use lfg as he desired and personally I started fractal not long ago and either joined or created 0, 5, 10, 20, 30, ..., kp groups and ended up going well with an increasing group quality. ofc it take some patience and dedication to get first few kp which is kinda expected as this content isn't fail proof unlike the rest of gw2.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    actually it's quite different, kp gate are constantly increasing not decreasing. If too many player with 200 kp cannot handle solo healing its raised up to 250, when 250 get filled with too many people that cannot stay alive its raised up to 300 and so on. it follows the gameplay not player kp amount. most of day 1 player are over 4k ess by now and there is no 4k group

    There is only so far you can evolve with your speed to clear a fractal. The game engine has limits, commonly referred to as benchmarks.

    Forever increasing KPs will not continue to find better and better players who are faster and faster and more efficient. The same people who were once strong when 50 ESS was a high check are the same people who are strong when 250 is is a high check. And by the time they want 250 checks, it's not like they're clearing fractals any faster than they were during the old 50 check, outside of some new patching with added DPS and/or maybe very very slight improvements in some skill rotational that will mater a fraction of minute by the end of a fractal. And that is the very essence of what I am trying to explain here.

    it's not about increasing the player quality it's about maintaining it. kp are earned daily so it constantly increase, making "best player" increase their and "worse player" too at some point player that aren't fit for the job reach the threshold and makes run slower/unreliable. there is few option available at that point:
    -leave lfg and only use friendlist/guild it's an option but it doesn't have to be as everyone if free to use lfg as it please them whether they are kp lovers, kp haters, kp ignorant.
    -block players that aren't performing well and nickname them so they know next time not to keep them. This option works well however whether or not the player improve won't give him a fair chance to playwith you in futur.
    -raise a bit the amount you are asking so you keep the same quality, players that no longer fit your group have few more kill to get and hopefully improve their gameplay by the time the reach it.

    yes few people will reach 400kp level by killing the boss 10 times, yes some will never reach this gameplay even after 10k kill. kp ain't perfect for sure but at the moment there is nothing better available.

    good thing is that as mentionned before everyone is free to use lfg as he desired and personally I started fractal not long ago and either joined or created 0, 5, 10, 20, 30, ..., kp groups and ended up going well with an increasing group quality. ofc it take some patience and dedication to get first few kp which is kinda expected as this content isn't fail proof unlike the rest of gw2.

    Ok you seem to have seen around the point made.

    If you were to peak at player skill level and speed of clear times right now at a 250 ESS check, like you are playing at maximum efficiency with what the engine allows you to do, imagine that:

    • 4 years later you're still playing the game, but with your method of ESS check inflation, ESS checks are now 1000. You are still only playing at the maximum efficiency allowed by the engine now with a 1000 standard, which you had already achieved being able to do at 250 ESS standard.
    • What makes you think that another player who began fractals later than you did, who has now achieved 250 ESS when the standard is now 1000 ESS, was not able to also understand how to play at maximum efficiency in that timeframe in the same way that you did while achieving your first 250 ESS?

    ^ I mean I guess that's the ultimate point here.

    The real question is: "At what margin of min-max ESS do most players achieve virtually maximum efficiency on their class?" And at that point, there is never a reason to inflate the standard of KP checks past that point.

    But the inflation of KP checks for fractals HAS been going through that for quite some time now, which is just really unnecessary. Like I said, most players gain the largest amount of their knowledge & skill during the first 20 ESS that they gain. After that, the margins of growth and improvement are very very small when you're talking 20 to 40, and then 40 to 100. From what I've seen, 100 to 250 is just plain irrelevant. Players between 100 and 250 all play the same, and they aren't clearing fractals much faster than people with 20 to 40 in all honesty.

    But w/e to each his own, if you want to knock 5 to 10 minutes off your 45 min to an hour run for the night. "Times now increased with new fractal"

  • @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @SeikeNz.3526 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @ArtSpace.7326 said:
    From my experience, people with 250KP are pathetic. New fractal came out, we were trying to do CM for more than 4 hours! They could not sustain themselves, learn how to dodge etc. Most of them had fractal titles (champion, savant and even god). Since I have never played shattered CM and had no KPs, it was both a pleasure and disgust watching those people fail over and over again. Now I`m making my own groups with DwD requirement, which worked so far great. Usually, we kill on 1-2 attempts.

    Yes, I`m a bit salty since I know I am better than most of those high KP people, but artificial gates prevents me from doing some of stuff (I came back to game long after shattered CM so I could not accumulate decent amount of KPs)

    From my experience, people with no prior cm knowledge have no idea how to burst, do 1-2k dps and then brag about being the last person alive even if the boss would take 30min with a party full of such players.
    Most high kp groups do the fractal already without any heal saving 5-6min compared to the average party. How do you filter out people that are not used to play without a dedicated healer?

    so you saying the guy that did 2k dps stayed alive while your KP players died and it's his fault? O - M - G

    I think he's more saying that there is no point bragging about being alive if you cannot do your job half descently.

    if you can't stay alive you are not doing any job

    Sometimes, and hear me out on this, you need other players to do certain mechanics correctly to do your job correctly. If someone fails to go into the bubble on Shattered Obsersvatory CM when skulled, that's on them. Sure, the skulled person will live, but everyone else will be dead.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    actually it's quite different, kp gate are constantly increasing not decreasing. If too many player with 200 kp cannot handle solo healing its raised up to 250, when 250 get filled with too many people that cannot stay alive its raised up to 300 and so on. it follows the gameplay not player kp amount. most of day 1 player are over 4k ess by now and there is no 4k group

    There is only so far you can evolve with your speed to clear a fractal. The game engine has limits, commonly referred to as benchmarks.

    Forever increasing KPs will not continue to find better and better players who are faster and faster and more efficient. The same people who were once strong when 50 ESS was a high check are the same people who are strong when 250 is is a high check. And by the time they want 250 checks, it's not like they're clearing fractals any faster than they were during the old 50 check, outside of some new patching with added DPS and/or maybe very very slight improvements in some skill rotational that will mater a fraction of minute by the end of a fractal. And that is the very essence of what I am trying to explain here.

    it's not about increasing the player quality it's about maintaining it. kp are earned daily so it constantly increase, making "best player" increase their and "worse player" too at some point player that aren't fit for the job reach the threshold and makes run slower/unreliable. there is few option available at that point:
    -leave lfg and only use friendlist/guild it's an option but it doesn't have to be as everyone if free to use lfg as it please them whether they are kp lovers, kp haters, kp ignorant.
    -block players that aren't performing well and nickname them so they know next time not to keep them. This option works well however whether or not the player improve won't give him a fair chance to playwith you in futur.
    -raise a bit the amount you are asking so you keep the same quality, players that no longer fit your group have few more kill to get and hopefully improve their gameplay by the time the reach it.

    yes few people will reach 400kp level by killing the boss 10 times, yes some will never reach this gameplay even after 10k kill. kp ain't perfect for sure but at the moment there is nothing better available.

    good thing is that as mentionned before everyone is free to use lfg as he desired and personally I started fractal not long ago and either joined or created 0, 5, 10, 20, 30, ..., kp groups and ended up going well with an increasing group quality. ofc it take some patience and dedication to get first few kp which is kinda expected as this content isn't fail proof unlike the rest of gw2.

    Ok you seem to have seen around the point made.

    If you were to peak at player skill level and speed of clear times right now at a 250 ESS check, like you are playing at maximum efficiency with what the engine allows you to do, imagine that:

    • 4 years later you're still playing the game, but with your method of ESS check inflation, ESS checks are now 1000. You are still only playing at the maximum efficiency allowed by the engine now with a 1000 standard, which you had already achieved being able to do at 250 ESS standard.

    4 year is a long time most likely you'de have to relearn what's going on because what you learn will be outdated and less efficient than newer options. you'll also have to relearn your class as most skills would have changed. But most likely the player would have enough spare one regarless (i've never seen over 500 ess in lfg but i see quite a lot of player with over 4k ess)

    • What makes you think that another player who began fractals later than you did, who has now achieved 250 ESS when the standard is now 1000 ESS, was not able to also understand how to play at maximum efficiency in that timeframe in the same way that you did while achieving your first 250 ESS?
      ^ I mean I guess that's the ultimate point here.

    What else do you know that can makes you evaluate a player skill descently without even have to go for a try?

    The real question is: "At what margin of min-max ESS do most players achieve virtually maximum efficiency on their class?" And at that point, there is never a reason to inflate the standard of KP checks past that point.

    But the inflation of KP checks for fractals HAS been going through that for quite some time now, which is just really unnecessary. Like I said, most players gain the largest amount of their knowledge & skill during the first 20 ESS that they gain. After that, the margins of growth and improvement are very very small when you're talking 20 to 40, and then 40 to 100. From what I've seen, 100 to 250 is just plain irrelevant. Players between 100 and 250 all play the same, and they aren't clearing fractals much faster than people with 20 to 40 in all honesty.

    But w/e to each his own, if you want to knock 5 to 10 minutes off your 45 min to an hour run for the night. "Times now increased with new fractal"

    That's something I never understood in people behaviour, what makes them feel forced to get in the highest expectation group when they could perform well enough in lower groups? if you feels that a 20 ess group suits you more then don't bother trying to go in higher group. having them in lfg doesn't mean you have to get in it

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Fangoth.4503 said:
    actually it's quite different, kp gate are constantly increasing not decreasing. If too many player with 200 kp cannot handle solo healing its raised up to 250, when 250 get filled with too many people that cannot stay alive its raised up to 300 and so on. it follows the gameplay not player kp amount. most of day 1 player are over 4k ess by now and there is no 4k group

    There is only so far you can evolve with your speed to clear a fractal. The game engine has limits, commonly referred to as benchmarks.

    Forever increasing KPs will not continue to find better and better players who are faster and faster and more efficient. The same people who were once strong when 50 ESS was a high check are the same people who are strong when 250 is is a high check. And by the time they want 250 checks, it's not like they're clearing fractals any faster than they were during the old 50 check, outside of some new patching with added DPS and/or maybe very very slight improvements in some skill rotational that will mater a fraction of minute by the end of a fractal. And that is the very essence of what I am trying to explain here.

    it's not about increasing the player quality it's about maintaining it. kp are earned daily so it constantly increase, making "best player" increase their and "worse player" too at some point player that aren't fit for the job reach the threshold and makes run slower/unreliable. there is few option available at that point:
    -leave lfg and only use friendlist/guild it's an option but it doesn't have to be as everyone if free to use lfg as it please them whether they are kp lovers, kp haters, kp ignorant.
    -block players that aren't performing well and nickname them so they know next time not to keep them. This option works well however whether or not the player improve won't give him a fair chance to playwith you in futur.
    -raise a bit the amount you are asking so you keep the same quality, players that no longer fit your group have few more kill to get and hopefully improve their gameplay by the time the reach it.

    yes few people will reach 400kp level by killing the boss 10 times, yes some will never reach this gameplay even after 10k kill. kp ain't perfect for sure but at the moment there is nothing better available.

    good thing is that as mentionned before everyone is free to use lfg as he desired and personally I started fractal not long ago and either joined or created 0, 5, 10, 20, 30, ..., kp groups and ended up going well with an increasing group quality. ofc it take some patience and dedication to get first few kp which is kinda expected as this content isn't fail proof unlike the rest of gw2.

    Ok you seem to have seen around the point made.

    If you were to peak at player skill level and speed of clear times right now at a 250 ESS check, like you are playing at maximum efficiency with what the engine allows you to do, imagine that:

    • 4 years later you're still playing the game, but with your method of ESS check inflation, ESS checks are now 1000. You are still only playing at the maximum efficiency allowed by the engine now with a 1000 standard, which you had already achieved being able to do at 250 ESS standard.
    • What makes you think that another player who began fractals later than you did, who has now achieved 250 ESS when the standard is now 1000 ESS, was not able to also understand how to play at maximum efficiency in that timeframe in the same way that you did while achieving your first 250 ESS?

    ^ I mean I guess that's the ultimate point here.

    The real question is: "At what margin of min-max ESS do most players achieve virtually maximum efficiency on their class?" And at that point, there is never a reason to inflate the standard of KP checks past that point.

    On 1 class, probably after 10-20 runs IF they actively monitor their performance and analyze damage logs to see where they failed.

    On multiple classes? A multiple of around 2 - 3 times that amount if we assume that damage dealers are nearly interchangeable, and there is a reduced learning curve on new roles between HFB, QB, ALACREN and BS after mastering the first.

    Subjective personal example:
    I can multiclass any role for CMs (with multiple DPS classes). I can do so because I have probably around minimum 40-50 clears on each role (My total KP is 450+ and I quit running daily CMs months ago after hitting Fractal God in February) and even still: alacren is probably my weakest class simply because I've played it the least in high performance groups, just regular CM clears.

    At 20 KP, I was decent on 1 class.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    But the inflation of KP checks for fractals HAS been going through that for quite some time now, which is just really unnecessary. Like I said, most players gain the largest amount of their knowledge & skill during the first 20 ESS that they gain.

    You have not yet show this to be the case and certainly not accounted for switching to a non healer composition. Again, if this were really the case ON AVERAGE, KP requirements would not develop as they do.

    People REALLY need to stop assuming KP develop on their own out of other players evil intent. We have had far to many and different KP requirements develop in this game to clearly indicate to everyone who spent some time thinking about them that: KP and how strict or demanding they are develops directly along with a player bases development to the difficulty of the content. KP do not develop on a broad scale (aka get adapted by many many players at a similar time) because players enjoy reducing the amount of viable group candidates , they develop upwards because many players at a certain level feel as though they can not play on the level they were used to or want to play at.

    As such, if KP keep growing, it obviously indicates an issue with a majority of players reaching the new KP threshold which are not performing as required. The KP checks have been rather stable for CM fractals though and I gave a summary of what each bracket means on EU:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    With the old KP ping for fractals, there was a certain expectation to go along:

    • 1-50 KP was in general new players, hfb which might not do all the mechanics for one, likely no consumables, maybe not even a fractal title on players
    • 50-100 KP were more relaxed groups, still a hfb for carry but one who might actually know how to press buttons, consumables were given, etc.
    • 200 KP was right below "I have to focus up now" with maybe a hfb, but very likely a few fractal title players, everyone on full consumables and fractal potions
    • 300+ KP was in general: focus up, no hfb for carry so know how to dodge, cc and burst, probably portals on multiple people, etc. Get through both CMs in around 20 Minutes

    and while there was a minor increase with time, these values where rather stable for an extended period of time on EU.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    After that, the margins of growth and improvement are very very small when you're talking 20 to 40, and then 40 to 100. From what I've seen, 100 to 250 is just plain irrelevant. Players between 100 and 250 all play the same, and they aren't clearing fractals much faster than people with 20 to 40 in all honesty.

    Yes, players between 50 and 100 are similar to the most extent, with maybe a difference in how many classes each knows to play. The same is true for players of 100 - 200, with a higher chance that each player knows to play multiple roles and as such might realize another role is messing up or needs help (best example: an alacrene not being able to clear the anomaly on Arkk if needed or getting bomb and needing backup on orbs) overall again leading to a smoother experience. Finally there is also no big difference between 300 and 1k ESS for players IF they have trained playing without a HFB, eventually you get it into your head or you simply do not run in no HFB groups.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    But w/e to each his own, if you want to knock 5 to 10 minutes off your 45 min to an hour run for the night. "Times now increased with new fractal"

    5 to 10 minutes per day are 35 to 110 minutes (1 hour 10 minutes) per week. 140 (2 hours 20 minutes) minutes to 440 minutes (7 hours 20 minutes) per month. If we assume a mere 300 KP as basis, at an average 2 KP per day, that's 150 days of fractals, aka 5 months, aka 700 minutes (11 hours 40 minutes) to 2200 minutes (1 day 12 hours and 40 minutes) in lost time. That is ONLY on losing 5 - 10 minutes per day for the next 300 KP.

    Why do people always underestimate what 5 - 10 minutes PER DAY, actually means?

    This is one of the downsides to players running this content religiously for months and years on end. I certainly was running daily fractals (PUG and static, PUG when my static didn't have time) for nearly 3/4 of last year (having spent all of my relics on bags and backpieces on my characters) to get to FG.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Going along that last post, I had a realization that some players might not know:

    Running Fractal CMs is for some players their "open world farm". It certainly is for me. You won't see me farming open world meta events for hours on end to make gold (not judging, simply not something I do any more). Yes, I will aim to get achievements done on new maps, yes I will occasionally run a meta, but the majority of my game time is not centered around making gold in open world.

    I make my gold from occasionally investing in the TP, running raids weekly and running Fractals when I feel like it, and I adjust my in-game spending accordingly. I know quite a lot of players who do the same or are in the same boat.

    Having said that, think back on what happens in map chat when meta events fail, or only even take a slight moment longer (hello South Octovine), the chat often explodes. On content which is basically meaningless and the delay is only a few minutes on almost guaranteed rewards. Now translate that behavior to fractals and you might understand WHY some players enjoy a friction-less daily clear.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Going along that last post, I had a realization that some players might not know:

    Running Fractal CMs is for some players their "open world farm". It certainly is for me. You won't see me farming open world meta events for hours on end to make gold (not judging, simply not something I do any more). Yes, I will aim to get achievements done on new maps, yes I will occasionally run a meta, but the majority of my game time is not centered around making gold in open world.

    I make my gold from occasionally investing in the TP, running raids weekly and running Fractals when I feel like it, and I adjust my in-game spending accordingly. I know quite a lot of players who do the same or are in the same boat.

    Having said that, think back on what happens in map chat when meta events fail, or only even take a slight moment longer (hello South Octovine), the chat often explodes. On content which is basically meaningless and the delay is only a few minutes on almost guaranteed rewards. Now translate that behavior to fractals and you might understand WHY some players enjoy a friction-less daily clear.

    Dude I get frictionless daily clears by literally joining any CM T4 group with no requirements.

    Like I don't think you 100+ ESS demand guys are realizing quite the speed that the large majority of players are at nowadays. This stuff is not hard, even for people who just play casually.

    I'm not saying an ESS req is wrong. Play however you want man. Just try to actualize the reality vs. the placebo, of how much it actually matters and if it's worth segregating the player base over. But it's w/e man. To each his own.

    And incase you were wondering, I've been running CM fractals almost every night for just about 2 years now with the same 2 guys. We have plenty of ESS but ironically enough we just don't give a kitten about that. We create LFGs through our guild and teach & carry literally anyone who joins. We've become so proficient at the CMs that we could probably trio clear everything in the same time that it would take normal group to do with 5 people. I dunno man, when you get to that level, it feels like as a veteran, you owe the community some interaction. Consider it, because that is what this community is missing. It killed raids and it will kill fractals in the long run as well.

    People come back and play games when they have the feeling of community and being accepted. They don't come back to an experience where everyone is encouraging the idea that they aren't good enough or aren't ready or never will be, and that no one wants to help them. The general design of GW2 promotes this kind of attitude & segregation during the end game content, which isn't good.

    In my opinion removing KPs will by far be the healthiest thing for GW2 end game pve in the long run. Even if it upsets the top 2% of the player base elites for awhile, that other 98% of the community is going to be having a lot more fun when they aren't being immediately judged all of the time. I know this for a fact because I see it nightly when I teach players CMs. They get to speak with people who are willing to have a human interaction with them and teach them something, and 9/10 times at the end, they are extremely grateful and you can tell they truly enjoyed their night of gaming.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Going along that last post, I had a realization that some players might not know:

    Running Fractal CMs is for some players their "open world farm". It certainly is for me. You won't see me farming open world meta events for hours on end to make gold (not judging, simply not something I do any more). Yes, I will aim to get achievements done on new maps, yes I will occasionally run a meta, but the majority of my game time is not centered around making gold in open world.

    I make my gold from occasionally investing in the TP, running raids weekly and running Fractals when I feel like it, and I adjust my in-game spending accordingly. I know quite a lot of players who do the same or are in the same boat.

    Having said that, think back on what happens in map chat when meta events fail, or only even take a slight moment longer (hello South Octovine), the chat often explodes. On content which is basically meaningless and the delay is only a few minutes on almost guaranteed rewards. Now translate that behavior to fractals and you might understand WHY some players enjoy a friction-less daily clear.

    Dude I get frictionless daily clears by literally joining any CM T4 group with no requirements.

    Like I don't think you 100+ ESS demand guys are realizing quite the speed that the large majority of players are at nowadays. This stuff is not hard, even for people who just play casually.

    I'm not saying an ESS req is wrong. Play however you want man. Just try to actualize the reality vs. the placebo, of how much it actually matters and if it's worth segregating the player base over. But it's w/e man. To each his own.

    And incase you were wondering, I've been running CM fractals almost every night for just about 2 years now with the same 2 guys.

    Are you really comparing running a half static group to full PUG groups? You're not going to tell me how you are also running the support backbone and simply inviting dps players next are you? Yes, when we fill up our static due to missing members, it is a very different experience versus PUGing.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    In my opinion removing KPs will by far be the healthiest thing for GW2 end game pve in the long run. Even if it upsets the top 2% of the player base elites for awhile, that other 98% of the community is going to be having a lot more fun when they aren't being immediately judged all of the time. I know this for a fact because I see it nightly when I teach players CMs. They get to speak with people who are willing to have a human interaction with them and teach them something, and 9/10 times at the end, they are extremely grateful and you can tell they truly enjoyed their night of gaming.

    All that can be achieved in guilds and discords. I agree, players should talk more to each other, and they can do so. I disagree that others should expect to get carried. If you want to do so for 2 years every night, that is nice, but not every player has the desire to spend days per year of their limited time on this world.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭
    edited September 21, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Going along that last post, I had a realization that some players might not know:

    Running Fractal CMs is for some players their "open world farm". It certainly is for me. You won't see me farming open world meta events for hours on end to make gold (not judging, simply not something I do any more). Yes, I will aim to get achievements done on new maps, yes I will occasionally run a meta, but the majority of my game time is not centered around making gold in open world.

    I make my gold from occasionally investing in the TP, running raids weekly and running Fractals when I feel like it, and I adjust my in-game spending accordingly. I know quite a lot of players who do the same or are in the same boat.

    Having said that, think back on what happens in map chat when meta events fail, or only even take a slight moment longer (hello South Octovine), the chat often explodes. On content which is basically meaningless and the delay is only a few minutes on almost guaranteed rewards. Now translate that behavior to fractals and you might understand WHY some players enjoy a friction-less daily clear.

    Dude I get frictionless daily clears by literally joining any CM T4 group with no requirements.

    Like I don't think you 100+ ESS demand guys are realizing quite the speed that the large majority of players are at nowadays. This stuff is not hard, even for people who just play casually.

    I'm not saying an ESS req is wrong. Play however you want man. Just try to actualize the reality vs. the placebo, of how much it actually matters and if it's worth segregating the player base over. But it's w/e man. To each his own.

    And incase you were wondering, I've been running CM fractals almost every night for just about 2 years now with the same 2 guys. We have plenty of ESS but ironically enough we just don't give a kitten about that. We create LFGs through our guild and teach & carry literally anyone who joins. We've become so proficient at the CMs that we could probably trio clear everything in the same time that it would take normal group to do with 5 people. I dunno man, when you get to that level, it feels like as a veteran, you owe the community some interaction. Consider it, because that is what this community is missing. It killed raids and it will kill fractals in the long run as well.

    People come back and play games when they have the feeling of community and being accepted. They don't come back to an experience where everyone is encouraging the idea that they aren't good enough or aren't ready or never will be, and that no one wants to help them. The general design of GW2 promotes this kind of attitude & segregation during the end game content, which isn't good.

    In my opinion removing KPs will by far be the healthiest thing for GW2 end game pve in the long run. Even if it upsets the top 2% of the player base elites for awhile, that other 98% of the community is going to be having a lot more fun when they aren't being immediately judged all of the time. I know this for a fact because I see it nightly when I teach players CMs. They get to speak with people who are willing to have a human interaction with them and teach them something, and 9/10 times at the end, they are extremely grateful and you can tell they truly enjoyed their night of gaming.

    lets think about it for a sec, remove essences, what will change? nothing, even if you have no essences you already have access to the "advertise your group" function. if people are lacking interest in the content or if they are self-segregating themself its due to their choices. blaming these 2% because they enjoy the content differently than you do won't help much I'm afraid.
    And don't get me wrong i'm not saying what you're doing is wrong by helping new player, just remember that lfg is free for all so anyone can create the group they wish and there is more than enough space for all groups. (well at least i never saw any sign of lfg cap) as you are sayin they are 98% so out of their lfg it's pretty unlikely they end up with someone judging them.
    Gotta give it to you that like any other game the tool given to the community to organise training and such are very limited. there is a lot of communities willing to teach raid, fractal and such but nowhere to reference them in game. would be nice to kind of a board for guild in fractal/raid/strike hub where player can check for guild doing that content. unlikely to happen though.

    If by any chance the 2% leave the game and that the 98% "take over" the lfg, those who start to get a catch of the mechs will want to get their reward more reliably at start to think of ways to get it daily without wasting too much on it. and back to square 1.
    Maybe removing any kind of rewards from raid or fractal would help but i'm affraid it would most likely end up being limited to ap hunting lfg.
    imo best would be for them to stop being affraid of opening an lfg. It's annonym for everyone, so if someone shout at you, ez block him, someone complain about the dps in your group that was named "5 healer CMs" kick and block him, nothing to be feared, just do what you want and enjoy it :) weirdly enough it will be much better for the game than saying its kp fault and give up before even trying.

    reality vs placebo: i don't want to offend anyone but lets be honnest if players that are more looking into optimise run where always finding their shoes in 0kp cm run, well they wouldn't bother looking for kp, just have a look at t4 daily/recs, never a kp asked just food and pot. kp was (and still is) involving mostly 99cm and here and there you could see some for 98cm but was more rare.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:
    Now sadly all the new players won't be accepted to my parties because they have no unstable cosmic essences. Now this is unhealthy for the game, I am sorry that I have to do this.

    Dont worry, your kind will be minority soon.

    What is my kind ? Are you trying to be... DISCRIMATORY ? =)

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    Here is the response about the KP removal of one of our most valuable fractaleers.

  • well an ideal kp would be something that can be every single encounter. if a player decide to kill 100CM 10 times in a day he sould receive 10times the kp instead of being timegated but yeah just having a useless item proper to a CM/all CM that always loot would be much more interesting but unfortunally i doubt they'll ever implement it. too bad because i do believe people learn out of their 10 run even if its within the same day

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    about hfb or any other full support on cms runs.
    as person wiht 1500+ old kp for me strange vision about '300+ is no heal'.
    Can I run whiteout it ? yes. Do I see any point to to that ? - no.
    I don't see point to make one cm mode inside standard cm mode and always run pt wiht support.
    for me more fun that chill and stablem but no 10 minutes.
    And one more thing about time, how I check the diferences is 10-20 min on cms+t4. Ofc if bleed fire don't do impact ..
    But one thing - if you look on time, but not fun - so don't play games.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Its rather funny and ironic that anet have "removed" the KP because it was discrimitory however old players are still asking for "old KP" meaning there is even less chance of newer players getting in to high end pug fractals lol. now they dont even have motivation. anet should have gone all in at least and force conversion of the old KP.

    Always be rootin, always be tootin, and by golly always be shootin.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    about hfb or any other full support on cms runs.
    as person wiht 1500+ old kp for me strange vision about '300+ is no heal'.
    Can I run whiteout it ? yes. Do I see any point to to that ? - no.
    I don't see point to make one cm mode inside standard cm mode and always run pt wiht support.
    for me more fun that chill and stablem but no 10 minutes.
    And one more thing about time, how I check the diferences is 10-20 min on cms+t4. Ofc if bleed fire don't do impact ..
    But one thing - if you look on time, but not fun - so don't play games.

    That's not the point.

    The point is, players were and are able to run through 100 CM and 99CM without heal. You don't want to get that good or play that way, that is fine, no one is judging. Others do want to save the time, and were looking for similar minded players.

    What you consider fun and chilled is your personal opinion.

  • 499 old kps still in my inventory, always hated 250+kp groups on lfg (they usually don't deliver), what i always do is post a100kp requisite for cms (the middle ground in my opinion, i usually accept 65 or 55 without complaining), unexperienced players can find their own training groups and have the humility to learn the content and their classes instead of lying and leeching. Pompous hardcore players lower their expectations in 100kp groups (or simply don't join if they want to break a non existent record).

    New KPs are certainly not going to make me convert my old ones. And titles certainly don't represent a level of mastery (old cms or the new one).

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    Dude I get frictionless daily clears by literally joining any CM T4 group with no requirements.

    Like I don't think you 100+ ESS demand guys are realizing quite the speed that the large majority of players are at nowadays. This stuff is not hard, even for people who just play casually.

    Ah, Anecdotes. This should be interesting.

    I'm not saying an ESS req is wrong. Play however you want man. Just try to actualize the reality vs. the placebo, of how much it actually matters and if it's worth segregating the player base over. But it's w/e man. To each his own.

    This is quite ironic.

    And incase you were wondering, I've been running CM fractals almost every night for just about 2 years now with the same 2 guys.

    Aaaand here it is.

    We have plenty of ESS but ironically enough we just don't give a kitten about that. We create LFGs through our guild and teach & carry literally anyone who joins.

    This is great, but you're also 3/5 players with lots of experience. So long as you've 2 supports giving good boons, consumables, and one really good DPS you can carry these fractals.

    We've become so proficient at the CMs that we could probably trio clear everything in the same time that it would take normal group to do with 5 people.

    Ah, yeah, see, you're not pugging. You're 3/5ths a static carrying 2 more people. This is the placebo you have.

    I dunno man, when you get to that level, it feels like as a veteran, you owe the community some interaction. Consider it, because that is what this community is missing. It killed raids and it will kill fractals in the long run as well.

    If we're going to play anecdotes, today I got a raid group going on the LFG with no real requirements and we one pulled Adina. This was at 6AM CST, outside of NA primetime. Raids are hardly dead, and people want to play with others who have experience and get a smooth clear with complete randoms, not 3/5ths (or in a raid's case, 6/10ths) of a static carrying hard because your average player who raids or does fractals just wants to clear the content as smoothly as possible.

    People come back and play games when they have the feeling of community and being accepted. They don't come back to an experience where everyone is encouraging the idea that they aren't good enough or aren't ready or never will be, and that no one wants to help them. The general design of GW2 promotes this kind of attitude & segregation during the end game content, which isn't good.

    This community are exactly what guilds are for. The LFG is for finding temporary groups for content, not judging the community as a whole. Also, anyone can make a group on the LFG. That's the glory o the system, though sometimes you do and groups are up for hours on end because of the time of day.

    In my opinion removing KPs will by far be the healthiest thing for GW2 end game pve in the long run.

    Yeah, sure, if they didn't do half a job of removing KP, it'd have actually worked, but they made it optional to turn it in instead of just converting all essence into the new currency immediately. This made people hang onto it and now there's an exclusive group that anyone who had no essence before can never join, ever, even if they put forth the effort to do so.

    Even if it upsets the top 2% of the player base elites for awhile, that other 98% of the community is going to be having a lot more fun when they aren't being immediately judged all of the time.

    Odd, they weren't being judged to begin with. Does a job posting that's asking for 2 years experience in a relevant field judge the people who don't have that? No, sane people see that it requires that experience and, if they don't have it, they leave and look for something else or go get that experience. I'm pretty sure even you went out of your way to get experienced at CMs before joining higher requirement groups.

    I know this for a fact because I see it nightly when I teach players CMs. They get to speak with people who are willing to have a human interaction with them and teach them something, and 9/10 times at the end, they are extremely grateful and you can tell they truly enjoyed their night of gaming.

    More anecdotes. I'll counter with some of my own then; I've joined low Ess groups before and have had people, despite telling them (Hit Solar Blooms Clockwise, skull to anom and stick in bubble, clockwise at Siax, spread for Ensolys 66%/33%) they repeatedly don't do that and cause wipes at worst or die early at best. It's not even a language barrier issue as I demonstrate the strategy visually as well post wipe so they can have the best chance at understanding what I'm asking of them and they still fail. High essence groups are trying to weed out people who refuse to listen, can't listen, or don't want to learn and signify to others that these people know the fight and will have the highest chance at getting a smooth, speedy clear.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2020

    I think the kp goes into the inventory is a great change.
    I advertise for CMs + T4 & Recs | DwD/DoD + 200kps /raid title/infusions| professions ..etc etc |
    I mean even 50 or 100 kp is good enough to show the player can play as a team at cms generally.

    players can advertise from LFG more players training for 100cm 99 or 98 cms. I also see a lot of CMs asking for title only... you can always advertise as

    CMs + T4 & Recs | DwD/DoD | Professions etc | you will get players to join.

    Death is Energy [DIE] & Bongbong [BB] in FoW server
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