What is our bond with Aurene? Is the commander a proto-ritualist? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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What is our bond with Aurene? Is the commander a proto-ritualist?

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 21, 2020 in Lore

Before humans used magic they had mystical powers from channeling spirits. These techniques were later strengthened by the introduction of preservation magic. And they merged to become Ritualism and eventually a part of the Guardian profession.

We are not entirely sure what the original abilities looked like. But a theme seems to be light/lightning. And now centuries later the commander is able to do a bunch of preservation-esque things with the help of the light dragon. All without ever being corrupted.

Beyond Crystal Champion/Aurene we have also bonded with the Raven Spirit. And light-like abilities comes up again.

I'm not sure how else to explain how we have magical protective powers from channeling bonds other than the commander is some sort of proto-ritualist.

Comments

  • Probably not. Aurene isn't a spirit or any other sort of Mist entity, despite her ability to connect to the Mists she's very much Tyrian. Also the commander's connection to Aurene is much more symbiotic as opposed to ritualists, whose connection to spirits has been described as imposing their will over the spirits they control. Raven similarly allows us to use its power rather than being dominated and in general reminds me more of the Spirit blessings EotN had than either a ritualist or the connection to Aurene.

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  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020

    As far as I know, humans couldn't use any magic before The Six gave it to them.
    Even most (if not all) of human Ritualist's magic is tied to Grenth's domain of Death.

    Aurene technically is the Prismatic Dragon, not the Light Dragon.
    Natural prisms are crystals and Aurene still is a Crystal Dragon.

    From a Lore perspective, Raven is not associated with Light either.
    Raven is associated with wisdom, cunning, trickery, knowledge, the Underworld and ghosts.
    The Raven magic with have seen in the Sanctum were Illusions and possibly Shadow magic.
    The Raven's Light mastery might actually be related to Death magic, which we know is associated with Raven.
    Also, the blue of the Raven Masteries gives of a slightly eerie vibe, similar to the glow of the Ascalonian Ghosts, which might be further indicating that it's actually death magic.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We are Aurine's Champion.

    Think Shatterer and Tequatl.. what they were to their respective Dragons we are to Aurine only we're not corrupted and mutated to serve our master's will.
    We serve the same role to Aurine while remaining an individual with free will.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    We are Aurine's Champion.

    Think Shatterer and Tequatl.. what they were to their respective Dragons we are to Aurine only we're not corrupted and mutated to serve our master's will.
    We serve the same role to Aurine while remaining an individual with free will.

    I don't believe the two concepts are more than vaguely similar, if even that.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We are Aurine's Champion.

    Think Shatterer and Tequatl.. what they were to their respective Dragons we are to Aurine only we're not corrupted and mutated to serve our master's will.
    We serve the same role to Aurine while remaining an individual with free will.

    I don't believe the two concepts are more than vaguely similar, if even that.

    The only difference is power and behaviour really.

    All Elder Dragons have a Champion which is regarded as their strongest and most trusted warrior, Aurine has chosen our PC to serve as hers and regularly refers to us as her Champion.
    She doesn't command us like the other Dragons do with their champions though, we're not her slaves and we remain free of corruption and direct control.
    Jormag is experimenting with this same concept now as well through Ryland who is corrupted with Jormag's magic but has been allowed to retain his individuality, at least until Jormag decides it's no longer in it's interest to do so and enslaves him completely.

    We may not be giant Dragon's or monsters but we do have the same Champion/Elder Dragon relationship with Aurine just minus the corrupted enslaved element.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We are Aurine's Champion.

    Think Shatterer and Tequatl.. what they were to their respective Dragons we are to Aurine only we're not corrupted and mutated to serve our master's will.
    We serve the same role to Aurine while remaining an individual with free will.

    I don't believe the two concepts are more than vaguely similar, if even that.

    The only difference is power and behaviour really.

    All Elder Dragons have a Champion which is regarded as their strongest and most trusted warrior, Aurine has chosen our PC to serve as hers and regularly refers to us as her Champion.
    She doesn't command us like the other Dragons do with their champions though, we're not her slaves and we remain free of corruption and direct control.
    Jormag is experimenting with this same concept now as well through Ryland who is corrupted with Jormag's magic but has been allowed to retain his individuality, at least until Jormag decides it's no longer in it's interest to do so and enslaves him completely.

    We may not be giant Dragon's or monsters but we do have the same Champion/Elder Dragon relationship with Aurine just minus the corrupted enslaved element.

    Just about everything you've said above is a reason why the Commander is NOT the same kind of Champion as Tequatl or Shatterer were. Where the connection between the Commander and Aurene is a mutual symbiotic (and predominately emotional) one, all other Dragon Champions are especially powerful Dragon minions but minions none the less. Ryland is no exception, as you said it yourself, Jormag could take away his will anytime it chooses. Aurene currently couldn't do that to the Commander, without corrupting the Commander first.

    Quite frankly the two concepts are similar in name only, and that's only because Anet were too lazy to think of a different name for what the Commander was.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We are Aurine's Champion.

    Think Shatterer and Tequatl.. what they were to their respective Dragons we are to Aurine only we're not corrupted and mutated to serve our master's will.
    We serve the same role to Aurine while remaining an individual with free will.

    I don't believe the two concepts are more than vaguely similar, if even that.

    The only difference is power and behaviour really.

    All Elder Dragons have a Champion which is regarded as their strongest and most trusted warrior, Aurine has chosen our PC to serve as hers and regularly refers to us as her Champion.
    She doesn't command us like the other Dragons do with their champions though, we're not her slaves and we remain free of corruption and direct control.
    Jormag is experimenting with this same concept now as well through Ryland who is corrupted with Jormag's magic but has been allowed to retain his individuality, at least until Jormag decides it's no longer in it's interest to do so and enslaves him completely.

    We may not be giant Dragon's or monsters but we do have the same Champion/Elder Dragon relationship with Aurine just minus the corrupted enslaved element.

    Just about everything you've said above is a reason why the Commander is NOT the same kind of Champion as Tequatl or Shatterer were. Where the connection between the Commander and Aurene is a mutual symbiotic (and predominately emotional) one, all other Dragon Champions are especially powerful Dragon minions but minions none the less. Ryland is no exception, as you said it yourself, Jormag could take away his will anytime it chooses. Aurene currently couldn't do that to the Commander, without corrupting the Commander first.

    Quite frankly the two concepts are similar in name only, and that's only because Anet were too lazy to think of a different name for what the Commander was.

    That's pretty much what I was saying.
    The relationship is similar in name and role/purpose but the circumstances are different, we serve Aurine out of free will not as a slave like other dragon minions.
    Glint once had this same relationship with Kralkatorrik until he corrupted her completely and once freed from his control she still choose to serve him of her own free will for a time.

    Caithe is the only living being that has been infused with Aurine's magic, technically she is in a way corrupted although neither Caithe or Aurine think of it that way.
    Aurine could very likely enslave her at any time if she choose to do so much like Jormag could do with Ryland.
    If Aurine wanted to though she probably could force that same power onto any mortals, brand the Commander and Dragons Watch and make them into slaves.. Kralkatorrik had that power so Aurine very likely does as well but she'd never do something like that without a mortal's consent so long as she remains benevolent.

    If Aurine ever went bad, she'd probably brand us against our will and use us in the same way other Dragons use their champions.

  • To the best of our knowledge, "proto-ritualists" were summoning spirits from the Mists to do actions for them. Which is a lot similar to what ritualists post-gift of magic did, except they did more things.

    The Commander's bond is simply a less-invasive method of corruption. Though for Caithe, Ryland, and Bangar "bonding" resulted in physical changes to their body, making it literally the same as corruption but without the will-enslaving and stupifying aspect. Due to metagaming-related reasons, the Commander's physical appearance was unchanged (because fashion wars).

    So what is our bond with Aurene? Dragon corruption dialed back to benevolence.

    Nothing more. Nothing less.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2020

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We are Aurine's Champion.

    Think Shatterer and Tequatl.. what they were to their respective Dragons we are to Aurine only we're not corrupted and mutated to serve our master's will.
    We serve the same role to Aurine while remaining an individual with free will.

    I don't believe the two concepts are more than vaguely similar, if even that.

    They're pretty much exactly the same concept, though Teratus is wrong about "All Elder Dragons have a Champion which is regarded as their strongest and most trusted warrior" (I mean, there was the herald champion while the ED slept, but they weren't necessarily the strongest or most trusted, just the strongest surviving champion from the previous dragonrise that woke up beforehand to help the ED rise).

    The only difference between dragon champions and bonded "champions" is, ultimately, the existence of free will.

    Though rather than The Shatterer, a better example may be The Fraenir of Jormag and the three Mordrem Guard Commanders, as they're corrupted individuals rather than a hand-forged minion.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • I'm sorry to say that I'm unconvinced of any real similarities between Dragon Champions and whatever the Commander is. Other than two or three mastery abilities, most of which have to do with mounts, the Commander seems physically and mentally unaltered. A couple people here keep referring to thee Commander "serving" Aurene, but I think it could be argued that the Commander doesn't even do that. Maybe I'm missing something, some piece if lore or a statement by Anet, but from my own observations it just doesn't line up that the Commander is really the same type of Champion as the others.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We are Aurine's Champion.

    Think Shatterer and Tequatl.. what they were to their respective Dragons we are to Aurine only we're not corrupted and mutated to serve our master's will.
    We serve the same role to Aurine while remaining an individual with free will.

    I don't believe the two concepts are more than vaguely similar, if even that.

    They're pretty much exactly the same concept, though Teratus is wrong about "All Elder Dragons have a Champion which is regarded as their strongest and most trusted warrior" (I mean, there was the herald champion while the ED slept, but they weren't necessarily the strongest or most trusted, just the strongest surviving champion from the previous dragonrise that woke up beforehand to help the ED rise).

    Yeah I got that a bit wrong there, should have brushed up to double check my facts.. my bad.

    I was thinking more about Kralkatorrik specifically and his relationship with the Shatterer.
    Even though Kralkatorrik has multiple types of champions (Dragons, Wyverns Branded etc) and multiple crystal dragon champions in his army only one of them has the rank of Shatterer at any given time.

    In the case of Jormag it has multiple champions as well, but Ryland seems to be it's new favourite.. at least for now.
    Though Ryland and Bangar are the only champions of Jormag we actually see any kind of relationship with so it's kind of new territory for us to see this develop.

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    the Commander seems physically and mentally unaltered.

    Because we haven't been, that's the only difference.
    Aurine doesn't corrupt her allies like the other Dragons do, the only exception being Caithe who accepted Aurines powers willingly and doesn't consider it corruption even though technically there is little difference between her and Ryland's condition atm.
    Both have been infused with their respective dragons powers and gained new forms but they both retain their free will and follow their dragons willingly.

    A couple people here keep referring to thee Commander "serving" Aurene, but I think it could be argued that the Commander doesn't even do that.

    We do quite often actually, when Aurine asks us to do something or go somewhere we always do it.. we also always come when she calls to us.
    We may have free will and can decline or send others in our stead to speak with her if need be but we do serve Aurine willingly if you think about it.
    Aurine is not our master though, we see her as our ally and friend.. possibly even family considering we helped raise her.
    Since the death of Vlast and Kralkatorrik the player character and our allies are the closest thing she has to family.. keep in mind too that even though Aurine is an Elder Dragon now and technically has an adult form she is still very young, not even 5 years old yet.
    I'm still not 100% sure if she is fully grown yet, given how small she is compared to every other Elder Dragon we've seen.. all of which are far far bigger than she is.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    We are Aurene's Champion, and our connection with her is through the powers she has granted us.
    We literally have an entire Mastery Track which details the extent of our powers (Crystal Champion Track under PoF, but tbf those are some pretty "lame" powers unlocked but we're much more to Aurene after her rebirth)

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I'm sorry to say that I'm unconvinced of any real similarities between Dragon Champions and whatever the Commander is. Other than two or three mastery abilities, most of which have to do with mounts, the Commander seems physically and mentally unaltered. A couple people here keep referring to thee Commander "serving" Aurene, but I think it could be argued that the Commander doesn't even do that. Maybe I'm missing something, some piece if lore or a statement by Anet, but from my own observations it just doesn't line up that the Commander is really the same type of Champion as the others.

    In regards to mental alteration, they are - as much as Caithe and Ryland at least. Throughout War Eternal, Aurene telepathically communicates with the Commander. Aurene is also said to have felt the Commander's injury at the end of Shadow in the Ice (when the Commander got shot by Bangar and the bow), further connecting the mental connection. There's also how in HoT and Season 3, Aurene gave the Commander visions - like the vision the egg was about to hatch in S3E2, or the illusion of baby Aurene showing up in S3E3.

    The mental connection is 100% there.

    As to the mastery you note, the first one is also pretty critical: through our bond, we can absorb magic safely... like literally every dragon minion. Yet another trait shared, checked off.

    It's the least solid case, because gameplay reasons (primary reason for why no physical change) and probably the fact the bond was established while Aurene was an egg.

    As to the serving thing... The idea for Aurene is that she doesn't have enslaved minions so, no, the Commander doesn't serve Aurene. But neither does Caithe, Bangar, and Ryland. This is the whole aspect of what differs them from old-school champions - they're free willed.

    Dragon minions have four main traits, with dragon champions having a fifth one tacted on:

    1. Physically changed to Elder Dragon's element(s).
    2. Mentally connected to the Elder Dragon's hive mind, where the Elder Dragon knows what the minions know, but not vice versa.
    3. Can consume magic "safely".
    4. Has no free-will.
    5. (Champions only): Can receive direct commands from the Elder Dragon, and order minions accordingly.

    Caithe, Bangar, and Ryland have 1, 2, 3, and 5, and the lack of 4 is the main plot point of "it's a bond, not corruption". Caithe, Bangar, and Ryland's only difference from traditional dragon champions is the free-willed bit.

    The Commander has 2, 3, and 5, and the lack of 1 is, as said, because fashion wars. Thus, the Commander's only differences is the same as Caithe/Bangar/Ryland, but + no physical change (because fashion wars).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    So our characters, regardless of race, are all glorified dragon minions. Great. Gunna go back to playing Conan Exiles and Warframe for the next few months.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The Commander has 2, 3, and 5, and the lack of 1 is, as said, because fashion wars. Thus, the Commander's only differences is the same as Caithe/Bangar/Ryland, but + no physical change (because fashion wars).

    Is it possible the physical change is internal?

  • @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    So our characters, regardless of race, are all glorified dragon minions. Great. Gunna go back to playing Conan Exiles and Warframe for the next few months.

    Only beginning with HoT, but that's kind of the entire narrative of Season 3 onward, that we are the bonded champion of a new Elder Dragon.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The Commander has 2, 3, and 5, and the lack of 1 is, as said, because fashion wars. Thus, the Commander's only differences is the same as Caithe/Bangar/Ryland, but + no physical change (because fashion wars).

    Is it possible the physical change is internal?

    There is zero evidence of such.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Caithe, Bangar, and Ryland have 1, 2, 3, and 5, and the lack of 4 is the main plot point of "it's a bond, not corruption". Caithe, Bangar, and Ryland's only difference from traditional dragon champions is the free-willed bit.

    The Commander has 2, 3, and 5, and the lack of 1 is, as said, because fashion wars. Thus, the Commander's only differences is the same as Caithe/Bangar/Ryland, but + no physical change (because fashion wars).

    Why do you keep lumping Bangar in with the other three? Jormag made him the "Voice" and Bangar sure didn't seem too willing to fill that role right after being turned into that.

    In game quote (let's see how the filter reacts to this):

    Bangar Ruinbringer: Motherf—AAAGH!

    Ryland also leaves Bangar out as among the three people who know what it's like to be close to an Elder Dragon.

  • @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    Why do you keep lumping Bangar in with the other three?

    Because he is an icy cat, is connected to Jormag, but has free will.

    Sure, Bangar didn't want the particular role he got. But he still technically got exactly what he asked for: a bond with Jormag.

    Bangar has four of those five points. Well, presumably four - we technically have not seen Bangar, Caithe, or Ryland safely absorb small quantities of magic, but given they have the other three points, I think it's safe to say that they can just as the Commander and dragon minions can.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Caithe, Bangar, and Ryland have 1, 2, 3, and 5, and the lack of 4 is the main plot point of "it's a bond, not corruption". Caithe, Bangar, and Ryland's only difference from traditional dragon champions is the free-willed bit.

    The Commander has 2, 3, and 5, and the lack of 1 is, as said, because fashion wars. Thus, the Commander's only differences is the same as Caithe/Bangar/Ryland, but + no physical change (because fashion wars).

    Why do you keep lumping Bangar in with the other three? Jormag made him the "Voice" and Bangar sure didn't seem too willing to fill that role right after being turned into that.

    The voice is still one of Jormag's Champion creatures, much like Drakkar and the Fraenir of Jormag were before we slew them.
    The only difference between Bangar and these other voices is that Bangar doesn't serve Jormag willingly where as the others as far as we know did.