Why do we care about Lion's Arch?

Thought about it some time ago, and this thread finally made me post.Lately it's been paraded like some kind of cosmopolitan haven, but actually it's just a lair of pirates, smugglers and unscrupulous merchants.Also Lionguard are traitors to human race, and consort with centaurs (those centaurs that enslave humans and feed prisoners to rock-dogs) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sheriff_Sauchaa

And what's with their expansionist politics, why their "havens" are allowed in sylvari, human and norn territory? Do they require permission, or pay taxes?PoF powergrab by Kiel is also suspicious. Does she consider herself on par with Queen Jennah to make diplomatic connections with another country? Despite DR and LA are both cities in game, one is actually a big kingdom, while another - just a city.

Some quotes about LA from respectable people

Rytlock

No doubt you've heard reports that Lion's Arch is throwing itself a party. Fancy that, a bunch of shady pirates celebrating themselves. Guess they win medals for getting through a day and not spilling their grog.

Zoijja

Dragon Bash? Dragon? Bash? I'm beside myself with confusion and rage. Do those bilge-swilling simpletons in Lion's Arch think any public amusement featuring dragons is a well-thought out idea? I hear they've decorated with a dragon hologram flying above the city. Isn't that just festive of them? I swear, if it looks like Kralktorrik, I'll devote the rest of my life to ruining that sea-soaked burg for trivializing Snaff's death.

Some honorable norn in Hoelbrak

Lion's Arch? Ugh, that cesspit. I'd have Raven claw my eyes out before going back there.

I understand that we need a racially neutral city for game mechanics, but lorewise I feel it gets too much attention. And Fort Trinity should host Pact Airport.

The city has its problems, as all cities/nations/etc. do, but that doesn't take away from the things that make it important. It's a free city where races comingle with impunity. That's going to be very important to a world where races tend to have a history of being terrible to each other and wish to engender a new age of unity to kind of alleviate their pasts.

Lions Arch would be a neutral talking ground for many important things. Like a Tyrian UN. Charr and humans can use the neutral ground for further peace talks, the Asura can do... Whatever it is they feel they need to do to make up for the horrible things their people did to the Sylvari firstborn. If conflicts arise between nations, a neutral ground would be incredibly helpful to come to a compromise. So everyone has an interest in keeping it around and keeping it neutral.

Aside from that, I think it'd be very problematic if it ever lost its neutrality. It's become a very rich, very strategic, and very important place. Any one nation that claims Lion's Arch would probably have a very unfair advantage over the other nations. It's too powerful a tool for any one nation to claim. Assuming they could.

Edit: to your fort trinity point, it's probably not a bad idea, but for one, it's a military post. Great for launching military operations, but not much else. It's smaller, which could be fixed by throwing money at it to make it bigger, but why bother? Tyria already has a big neutral port, and no one nation had to foot the bill.Reason two is the pact is all but gone now, I think. I expect trinity will fall into ruin before too long. And three, until all the left over risen are gone, it's still not a safe place to do business.

The Lionguard (or lions arch, for that matter) don't have any ties to the crown - new Lions Arch is Lions Arch in name only. It has since been settled by a conglomerate of pirates, and the crown likely allows this because, as Erikur of Skyrim might say, "Lions Arch is good for buisness, and buisness is good for Tyria". So, no – they aren’t traitors to the crown, because they serve only their own interests.

Since the Lionguard has no official alignment to any one country, they don’t have to worry about their own supply lines being attacked in spite. This also means they have limited room to negotiate or even trade with otherwise hostile creatures like the centaurs, which is the path towards eventual peace.

As for the Pact, Lions Arch also holds the centre of Tyria – a powerful position that can likely make use of Lions Arch’s politics and supply lines against the dragons. Fort Trinity was a useful Forward Operating Base against the likes of Zhaitan’s forces, but is a little distant from places like the Shiverpeaks or the Maguuma Jungle. Also, I believe that the pact is understandibly sore about losing their general within minutes of him taking to the front lines (throwing the ensuing story of HoT into chaos). So long as the fight against the Dragons is global, it stands to reason your highest officials probably shouldn't be in a position to jump in the front lines, and should be well defended so someone can be held accountable.

I think lorewise, Lions Arch is sound to become the capital of Tyria in some respects.

@Halan.8951 said:I actually agree with you about the general, ah... moral character of the city, but not about the 'traitors to the human race' bit. Short of ensuring its extinction, I don't think it's possible to betray a race. LA does seem to have broken their agreement to aid Kryta against the centaurs, and if I were the Krytans I'd be rather miffed by that, but misrepresenting them as centaur-consorters when there were quite sizable elements of Kryta's government who truly were doing that gets us nowhere.

And what's with their expansionist politics, why their "havens" are allowed in sylvari, human and norn territory? Do they require permission, or pay taxes?

The havens are in place to protect roads that the locals either can't or won't. You see them in the Shiverpeaks, where the norn barely have a concept of organizations larger than a small hunting party and actively enjoy that their mountains are dangerous to travel; in regions of southern Kryta that the Seraph abandoned, either in the wake of the Great Tsunami or as they were pushed back by the centaurs; and in northern Metrica and Caledon, which weren't claimed by any nation beyond scattered asura labs and hylek tribes (and krait). As for sylvari, most of the Lionguard havens in Caledon were there first.

The Lionguard don't make any claims over the land the havens are built in, and it's certainly not 'expansionist'. They're fortified waycamps that exist solely to ensure and facilitate overland trade, which Lion's Arch relies on and the norn, asura, sylvari, and Kryta all enjoy. Kryta may want to take over a couple of the havens if they ever get back on even footing, but beyond that, the Lionguard taking on this responsibility is in everyone's best interests.

PoF powergrab by Kiel is also suspicious. Does she consider herself on par with Queen Jennah to make diplomatic connections with another country? Despite DR and LA are both cities in game, one is actually a big kingdom, while another - just a city.

Ah... LA is a city-state. Sovereign country, etc. etc., every bit on the same footing as Kryta. It's smaller, but no less independent, and no less entitled to send aid and relief to another city-state that's flooding LA with refugees. For that matter, Kryta is just a city ruling over the surrounding land and villages. LA just has less land and less villages.

The 'power grab' by Kiel was solely internal- she and Magnus agreed to bypass the rest of the Ship's Council. It's not a very up-front thing to do, and I don't know whether or not it's within their official powers, but this is LA. The city runs on shady deals.

Funny enough pirates were actually quite democratic compared to many nations in their golden age. I see LA as the equivalent of Tortuga, an infamous pirate settlement. The difference is that there is neither Spain, England, Portugal or the Netherlands who can be robbed and so there are no nations who would retaliate against pirate attacks sooner or later. Kryta has its own problems. Asura use submarines, the probably hardest to rob sea vessel. Norn, Charr and Sylvari do not have sea trade on their own as it seems. And compared to an ancient dragon breathing down on the nations, a pirate fleet seems like a rather tiny thread. The question for me would ratherr be who the rob at all, coastal villages?

From what we've heard, they mostly hit travel to and from Lion's Arch itself, either by sea (I've never seen any mention of asura using submarines, btw, so I'd be curious what your source is there) or land. We see a lot of 'pirates', especially around the False Lake and Lake Gendarr, who stick to the nautical theme but for all other purposes are essentially landlubber bandits.

Yeah ok, it is rather a conclusion. I though of it because a sailing ship seems rather primitive and unworthy for a race of self professed smart people and Tami ships you to ls3 EP 5 with a submarine. But taking a quick look in the harbor of Rata Sum there are many sailing ships and only one submarine, so I may have been wrong here.

@Torolan.5816 said:Yeah ok, it is rather a conclusion. I though of it because a sailing ship seems rather primitive and unworthy for a race of self professed smart people and Tami ships you to ls3 EP 5 with a submarine. But taking a quick look in the harbor of Rata Sum there are many sailing ships and only one submarine, so I may have been wrong here.

From what I can gather, submarines are actually a relitively recent development from the Iron Legion Charr, presumably mass produced by the pact for their fight against the Elder Dragon Zhaitan. You can see some of the prototypes in a Plains of Ashford heart-quest. Also, from what I gather, that submarine you mentioned belonged to the Vigil, not to Rata Sum.

Asura are probably still the best crew of a submarine because of their size or rather lack thereof. :)

Lions Arch used to be a part of Kryta. After it sunk the Krytan crown chose to abandon the city. Pirates and exiles gathered and it became a hive of criminal activity. Only when the city gained power and wealth under Captain Marriner, the Krytan crown regained interest and decided to "rightfully claim what is theirs". A 3-sided war between Kryta, LA and Zhaitan's army broke out and ultimately ended with LA's independence and a peace treaty between LA and Kryta. For more information read "Guild Wars: Sea of Sorrows".

Since then the orders have cooperated closely with LA. As a multi-racial organisation it's easier to operate in a city/state that tolerates all your races, which made LA rise even more in power and relevance. And yes, the Captain's Council (which Kiel is a member of) holds the same authority as the Krytan crown, the Arcane Council, the Pale Tree or any other government.

Lion's Arch, as a multiracial, trade focused, full of history, democratic and free city, is naturally the true capital of Tyria. That is why we do care about it. It was founded by pirates and criminals, outlaws that ironically were more interested in freedom and communication than any of the racial governments...

Let's hope the money owners can't completely destroy its basic purpose now...

@Ardid.7203 said:Lion's Arch, as a multiracial, trade focused, full of history, democratic and free city, is naturally the true capital of Tyria. That is why we do care about it. It was founded by pirates and criminals, outlaws that ironically were more interested in freedom and communication than any of the racial governments...

Let's hope the money owners can't completely destroy its basic purpose now...

I'm not sure about all that 'naturally the true capital of Tyria' bit, but one thing I will stress is that Lion's Arch is emphatically not democratic. The members of the Ship's Council are appointed by the other captains, not elected, and that means anyone who wants the spot is going to do their best to champion the council's interests, not the citizens'.

I supose you are right. It is still less rigid than most Tyrian societies (In theory at least, anyone could be a captain).And the "capital of Tyria" thing. Well, it follows by mere discard: Is there any other multiracial city more able to represent the huge diversity of the Tyrian inhabitants?

@Ardid.7203 said:I supose you are right. It is still less rigid than most Tyrian societies (In theory at least, anyone could be a captain).And the "capital of Tyria" thing. Well, it follows by mere discard: Is there any other multiracial city more able to represent the huge diversity of the Tyrian inhabitants?

Nope! On the other hand, that doesn't mean Tyria overall is going to have a capital, any more than Europe as a whole does. LA is a trade hub and has immense economic influence (which should have been reflected in massive impacts across the continent when Scarlet burned it, but ANet never even added a few lines to ambient dialogue around the map to reflect this). It is not, however, an administrative center for anything but itself.

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:From what we've heard, they mostly hit travel to and from Lion's Arch itself, either by sea (I've never seen any mention of asura using submarines, btw, so I'd be curious what your source is there) or land. We see a lot of 'pirates', especially around the False Lake and Lake Gendarr, who stick to the nautical theme but for all other purposes are essentially landlubber bandits.

Which is actually one of the things I've considered a bit "plotholeish" about Lion's Arch. Where was that sea trade coming from? The only port we see that could conceivably be trading with Lion's Arch at the start of GW2 is Garrenhoff, and that's both fairly minor and basically next-door to Lion's Arch. Sure, Rata Sum has docks, but it was a plot point that Zhaitan was blocking surface sea travel past Orr. Once Kryta withdrew from the Sea of Sorrows, there just shouldn't have been enough sea trade for Lion's Arch to continue to be viable as a port trading city at all, let alone to support all the pirates we see. Which explains them being 'landlubber bandits'.

I imagine most trade with Asuras and Sylvari are done over sea. It'd be much easier and faster to send a ship in a straight line to Rata Sum than send caravans through the wildlands and maguuma jungle. The Norn, charr, and humans probably mostly trade over land. Lions Arch is centrally located for whatever kind of trade people prefer!

@Squee.7829 said:I imagine most trade with Asuras and Sylvari are done over sea. It'd be much easier and faster to send a ship in a straight line to Rata Sum than send caravans through the wildlands and maguuma jungle. The Norn, charr, and humans probably mostly trade over land. Lions Arch is centrally located for whatever kind of trade people prefer!

Now, probably, but at the start of the game, Zhaitan effectively controlled the sea route from Lion's Arch to Rata Sum. You just couldn't take that route and hope to make it alive. The sylvari had only existed for twenty-five years at the time, and I don't think there's a port in the Grove, and there can't be one much further north in the Caledon because the southeastern region was overrun by Risen and the rest of the eastern border is mostly blocked by the Dominion of Winds.

So there's no visible evidence of sea trade with the sylvari (and if there was any, it'd only be a recent thing), while the sea route to Rata Sum was cut off by Zhaitan. So the only sea trade, based by the ports we're shown in-game, is between LA and Garrenhoff.

I was under the impression that zhaitans forces were a more distant problem UNTIL the personal story. The Claw Island mission suggested that they had never seen any large undead forces and didn't believe you when you suggested one was on its way. Or at least all the forces were minor enough to not be a huge problem. LA was very proud of its maritime defenses, which they likely used to secure trade routes. The quick trip from Rata Sum to LA would have been relatively safe.

As for Sylvari trade, it's practically right next to Rata Sum. Rata Sum does have a port. The most efficient thing would be to use rata sum as a trade waypoint. Say, a Charr wants to ship zucchinis or whatever, to their cousin in The Grove. The fastest and most established route would probably be Citadel>LA>Rata Sum Port Authority> The Grove.

@Squee.7829 said:I was under the impression that zhaitans forces were a more distant problem UNTIL the personal story. The Claw Island mission suggested that they had never seen any large undead forces and didn't believe you when you suggested one was on its way. Or at least all the forces were minor enough to not be a huge problem. LA was very proud of its maritime defenses, which they likely used to secure trade routes. The quick trip from Rata Sum to LA would have been relatively safe.

A lot of it stems from the reason why we don't hear from Cantha anymore. The justification given was "Once Orr rose from the ocean, those [isolationist] tendencies were reinforced by an inability to safely sail the western seas. Any ships venturing near the Strait of Malchor are sunk by the black ships, then dredged from the ocean floor by the Orrian dragon and commandeered into service." That squares with the commander of Claw Island never seeing an attack that large*, since the Straits of Malchor are far to the southwest, but if the blockade is solid enough to take out any and all ships from Cantha, it'd also sink at least the broad majority of any traffic from Rata Sum... and, since Rata Sum controls the gate network, it doesn't make sense that they'd throw away asuran crews. The docks at both LA and Rata Sum should, logically, be ghost harbors.

As for Sylvari trade, it's practically right next to Rata Sum. Rata Sum does have a port. The most efficient thing would be to use rata sum as a trade waypoint. Say, a Charr wants to ship zucchinis or whatever, to their cousin in The Grove. The fastest and most established route would probably be Citadel>LA>Rata Sum Port Authority> The Grove.

Depends on how far we should trust the in-game maps. The only major road link between Rata Sum and the Grove circles far to the north, and given the initial hostility between the sylvari and asura, I can see both races being perfectly content with that. It might make more sense in your example to go directly overland from LA, depending on local conditions.

*It does bear noting that Claw Island, and Lion's Arch, have certainly seen attacks of that scale before. The fleet that attacks at the end of Sea of Sorrows was larger than the one that attacked in the personal story, and both SoS, EoD, and the PS make a point that smaller but still major attacks are relatively common. Talon just happened to believe that he'd already seen it all, and no such attack could possibly arrive without something tipping him off. The only true surprise during the battle of Claw Island was Blightghast- as far as we know, Zhaitan had never sent a dragon beyond the Splintered Coast before.

Like I said, it was a plot point that Zhaitan closed the Straits of Malchor out of the Sea of Sorrows. You can't get from LA to Rata Sum Port Authority without passing through the Straits of Malchor. Therefor, there would have been no sea trade from Rata Sum to Lion's Arch.

Talon's surprise was sourced from Zhaitan having been essentially content to just maintain the blockade for over a century without making any credible assault on Lion's Arch.

I see. I somehow hadn't noticed the strait of Malchor would be part of that route. So I guess sea trade would be pretty much useless.

Still, though, at least it is in a position to control land based trading too.

@Squee.7829 said:I see. I somehow hadn't noticed the strait of Malchor would be part of that route. So I guess sea trade would be pretty much useless.

Still, though, at least it is in a position to control land based trading too.

True enough - an overland route from east to west does involve passing close to Lion's Arch. Combined with the havens, I don't think there's any doubt that it's a major hub for land trade. It was more the presence of significant sea trade - particularly, sufficient sea trade to support an apparently thriving pirate population - that's doubtful given the lack of other ports.

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