[Suggestions] Make raids great again! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Suggestions] Make raids great again!

Hello,

First of all, this is not one of those common posts where someone is complaining about raids and then asks for an easier mode. Actually I want to propose some off-raid things that may help both us and the future raiders. First of all, I will list some of the problems that always stress me and then I will propose some solutions for them. I will try to be realistic and think to the developers' work too, so I will try to make the solutions as easier to implement as possible. Please excuse the english grammar mistakes.

I) The problems as I see them:

  • Excesive linking. That moment when someone asks you for LI and you have to spamm in chat all your LIs + 6 pieces of armor.
  • Mechanics what were not strenghtened by solid pre-events. A lot of people complain about the green orb controls from Dhuum and there is no way of training except failing tries. And even then is hard.
  • A proper way to strenghten other skills like walking trough aoe's, learning how to keep your camera to make everything easier and others, in one word, general skills for raids.

II) Solutions:

Now I will talk about two features I tried to make as efficient as possible: The Raider Badge and The Simulation Room.

1) The Simulation room:

This room will be a simulator where players can train on various boss mechanics (mechanics that really require some individual training, not easy group mechanics like green circle - VG or mushrooms from Sloth). The simulator will be implemented like this:

  • There will be a teleporter from the actual DPS training room from Aerodrome. Each instance of the simulator is unique and there can be only one player in the instance.
  • The instance will be similar to the Taimi's simulator from LS3 to make sure we use existen resources, this will make implementation easier.
  • There will be a console inside where player can active events for a selected period of time: seconds or minutes, depending on the selected mechanic.
  • This simulator will contain training as:
  • a)Orb control: The player will be turned into an orb and will have to collect as many small orbs as possible in the selected time limit;
  • b)Dodge training: There will be aoe spawned similar to the sabetha's cannons or last phase fallin rocks + some Desmina walls from time to time. Player have to stay alive until the selected time expires.
  • c)Healing training: there will be several dummies spawned. The dummies will be spread and will take damage over time. The purpose is to keep them alive as much as possible (this may or may not be usefull in a trained group. For pug groups it would be usefull because players always tent to run around)
  • I could think only to those 3. In times, more mechanics can follow

2) The Raider Badge

And here is my solution for the excesive linkings and spamming. The badge. Well, this badge will work in this way:

  • Raider Badge item can be purchased for 10 silvers from LA Aerodrome. Once in inventory, you have to double click it to activate it.
  • The item called Raider Badge will disappear and, instead of it, you will recive a soulbound item called 's Badge (for example CoolGuy.5543's Badge). The name cand be different as long as is somehow unique, this was my best idea at the moment.
  • The coolest part is that you can link this item and chat and other players can actually right-click and inspect it.
  • When you inspect someone's badge, a dialogue box will pop-up and you will see some informations. There will be multiple pages of informations, you will have the next chat options for each of them "Next page" or "Close"
  • On the first page, you will see a list of all the bosses theowner of the badge has killed. If there is a challenge mote for that boss and the owner completed the CM, there will be an additional information, if not, only the boss name (Example: Deimos (Challenged) if he completed CM or just Deimos if he killed it the normal way). The bosses the owner did not kill will not appear in the list. The order of the bosses will be the classic one, from VG to Dhuum. This infos can be easly taken by devs from the Achievements.
  • On the second page, there will be displayed the number of LI that player ever had. Is easy to do it, just take everything from Deposit + 25 * each piece of legy armor from the account. This sum must be done only once because then it will be stored in a database.
  • Multiple pages can be added in case there will be further neede dinformations, but for the moment, I consider these two are enough.

Well, these are my suggestion. I really consider that those two things would organize the raiding community a bit. If you have questions, leave them below, I will answer, Please tell me what you think about these things. It would be cool if an official member would reply also, they know more than us about the way they implement things.

<1

Comments

  • Zania.8461Zania.8461 Member ✭✭✭

    1) This will get moved to Raids and Dungeons forums
    2) This is not a problem with the game, but self-imposed problem by the community, so I highly doubt ANet will want to dedicate resources to it
    3) Each piece of legendary armor after first set is 50 LI

  • Daniel.5428Daniel.5428 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zania.8461 said:
    1) This will get moved to Raids and Dungeons forums
    2) This is not a problem with the game, but self-imposed problem by the community, so I highly doubt ANet will want to dedicate resources to it
    3) Each piece of legendary armor after first set is 50 LI

    1) Yeah, my mistake there.
    2) well, the community is the main aspect on a MMO. Solving community problems will make it a better place for future player who will buy the game and maybe will make them stick with it.
    3) Yup, forgot this detail too. I crafted only one set. Anyway, it can be easly determined how many LI a player have. I doubt people were deleting them.

  • I'll be honest, I find this whole "pre-events" concept rather odd, but then again I'm a rather old-school raider who is used to spending 10+ hours wiping on a single boss encounter. I also don't like the simulation room idea, as to be it suggests that you expect a team to go into a new boss encounter and kill it in 1-2 attempts. That to me defeats the whole purpose of raiding as challenging end-game content. Call it needlessly hand-holding if you like, because to me a raid encounter is supposed to be full of new challenges that you haven't seen before. To me, you are expected to spend a lot of time learning the mechanics until you can finally beat the boss. If you go into a raid and 1-shot it first time, what is the point of it? But I'm probably in the minority and will get flamed for being too "hardcore".....

    Anyway, what I did like was your last suggestion, of the raider's badge. Anything that streamlines the process of recruiting players into a raid is definitely a good thing to me, and this could be very useful, both to raid leaders and guild leaders.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    The simulation room is a good idea that sounds like too much resources to be spent doing it. The developers probably think the pre-events already do their job pretty well. Dhuum specially was probably designed with the Raid speed clearers in mind (will they finally calm down about GW2 having nothing nice to do yet staying here?), which means people that are willing to train directly within the content.

    I'm also going to wager that Dhuum's mechanics are actually not much harder than everything else before, it's just that people got very used to being carried by godlike Chrono and Druids and pushed the Raid team into creating mechanics they would be forced to partake in. Just try having an updraft Gorseval run with 200+LI and watch your puggies crash and burn to see this in effect. Therefore, if Dhuum would be the only reason for this separate training to take place, it's no reason at all because people will eventually git gud for it (or find an ingenious way for a single good player to carry them, and this player WILL get all the practice he needs with the orbs solely from fighting with his guild btw).

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    That's absolutely not efficient at all, even the soviet union would come up with a simpler system lol. You want to get rid off linking? Move Lis to the wallet and make KPs tradeable. That would cause a lot of salt and LFG would wallow in self-pity before it finds other ways to inflict itself more of the same misery, but that would solve your immediate problem without being needlessly complicated.

    As for exposing players to mechanics before a boss fight, that's fair feedback but it would need its own thread.

  • @Rennie.6750 said:
    That's absolutely not efficient at all, even the soviet union would come up with a simpler system lol. You want to get rid off linking? Move Lis to the wallet and make KPs tradeable. That would cause a lot of salt and LFG would wallow in self-pity before it finds other ways to inflict itself more of the same misery, but that would solve your immediate problem without being needlessly complicated.

    As for exposing players to mechanics before a boss fight, that's fair feedback but it would need its own thread.

    Ok, could someone please explain to me why you need to "prepare" for a boss mechanic before doing the actual boss? Why not just learn the mechanic while fighting the boss itself? It's like telling people they need to do a car driving simulator before they can start their driving lessons.

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 8, 2017

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    That's absolutely not efficient at all, even the soviet union would come up with a simpler system lol. You want to get rid off linking? Move Lis to the wallet and make KPs tradeable. That would cause a lot of salt and LFG would wallow in self-pity before it finds other ways to inflict itself more of the same misery, but that would solve your immediate problem without being needlessly complicated.

    As for exposing players to mechanics before a boss fight, that's fair feedback but it would need its own thread.

    Ok, could someone please explain to me why you need to "prepare" for a boss mechanic before doing the actual boss? Why not just learn the mechanic while fighting the boss itself? It's like telling people they need to do a car driving simulator before they can start their driving lessons.

    Sure no problem. Since I used to be a high school teacher I'm going to use an analogy from that time. If at the beginning of the year I gave my students a book containing all they need to know by the end of the year, most would probably not learn anything. Why? because throwing too much at once at someone feels overwhelming and they don't really want to learn it. So you slice knowledge into much smaller parts and start from there. You need to devote the most time to the most complex parts to explain the concepts properly otherwise half of your students will fail the tests.

    So if you want to teach a difficult raid mechanic it's wise to put it on some trash before so that the players get used to it and can practice this and this only and can focus on learning all the simpler mechanics during the boss fight. Whether it needs to be done and what needs to be taught in advance is definitely open to debate, but it's never a bad idea you slice your raid mechanics into more accessible parts so that it doesn't feel overwhelming.

  • Daniel.5428Daniel.5428 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    So if you want to teach a difficult raid mechanic it's wise to put it on some trash before so that the players get used to it and can practice this and this only and can focus on learning all the simpler mechanics during the boss fight. Whether it needs to be done and what needs to be taught in advance is definitely open to debate, but it's never a bad idea you slice your raid mechanics into more accessible parts so that it doesn't feel overwhelming.

    I agree with you here. And, anyway, orb collecting is only 15-20% of Dhuum's mechanics. Anet did this before by introducing those world bosses in LS3 who were resemble of raid bosses. The boss from Bloodstone fen who had the green circle mechanic from VG, the sloth from Ember Bay who had some of the attacks of Slothasor. They did it to help players get used to things like "how to spot the green circle" or "fire breath animation".Yes, maybe simulation room is too complicated, by they can easly add a tonic or a world event where you are turned into an orb, at least to make you get used to the movements.

    If I want to train directly into raid, I would need to make 9 more people to do the pre-event which last around 1 minute just so I can go up for 10 seconds and train. Is not very effective, is not a group mechanic, the other 9 would have to keep failing just so you can practice.

  • @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:
    That's absolutely not efficient at all, even the soviet union would come up with a simpler system lol. You want to get rid off linking? Move Lis to the wallet and make KPs tradeable. That would cause a lot of salt and LFG would wallow in self-pity before it finds other ways to inflict itself more of the same misery, but that would solve your immediate problem without being needlessly complicated.

    As for exposing players to mechanics before a boss fight, that's fair feedback but it would need its own thread.

    Ok, could someone please explain to me why you need to "prepare" for a boss mechanic before doing the actual boss? Why not just learn the mechanic while fighting the boss itself? It's like telling people they need to do a car driving simulator before they can start their driving lessons.

    Sure no problem. Since I used to be a high school teacher I'm going to use an analogy from that time. If at the beginning of the year I gave my students a book containing all they need to know by the end of the year, most would probably not learn anything. Why? because throwing too much at once at someone feels overwhelming and they don't really want to learn it. So you slice knowledge into much smaller parts and start from there. You need to devote the most time to the most complex parts to explain the concepts properly otherwise half of your students will fail the tests.

    So if you want to teach a difficult raid mechanic it's wise to put it on some trash before so that the players get used to it and can practice this and this only and can focus on learning all the simpler mechanics during the boss fight. Whether it needs to be done and what needs to be taught in advance is definitely open to debate, but it's never a bad idea you slice your raid mechanics into more accessible parts so that it doesn't feel overwhelming.

    I understand the analogy however I'm reading through the boss mechanics and I'm seeing just 1-2 main mechanics in each 1. What are these other "simpler mechanics" that need to be learned and focused on? If you mean things like clearing conditions, dodging attacks and moving a boss through a certain area then surely these are things the players should have learned before going into the raid. Let's take Slothasor as an example. The fight has 2 main mechanics that players need to beware of. First is the volatile poison which needs to be taken away from the rest of the raid before being cleansed. The second is the poisoned arena that needs to be cleared by players consuming the inbued mushrooms. Are you really telling me that a group of raiders (who have probably cleared the t4 fractals dozens of times) can't cope with these 2 mechanics while fighting the boss?

    Again, maybe it's because I'm oldschool and have faced mechanics very similar to this in the past, but I consider it an insult to my skills and intelligence to be required to practice a boss mechanic before fighting the actual boss.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I understand the analogy however I'm reading through the boss mechanics and I'm seeing just 1-2 main mechanics in each 1. What are these other "simpler mechanics" that need to be learned and focused on? If you mean things like clearing conditions, dodging attacks and moving a boss through a certain area then surely these are things the players should have learned before going into the raid. Let's take Slothasor as an example. The fight has 2 main mechanics that players need to beware of. First is the volatile poison which needs to be taken away from the rest of the raid before being cleansed. The second is the poisoned arena that needs to be cleared by players consuming the inbued mushrooms. Are you really telling me that a group of raiders (who have probably cleared the t4 fractals dozens of times) can't cope with these 2 mechanics while fighting the boss?

    There's more to it than that. Incidentally, the most wipes at the early training level that i saw are not to those two - they are usually caused either by tantrum, or by fix positioning Sloth wrong (moving too slowly, positioning him with back to the slubling player, or on top of the mushroom, etc). Or just getting overwhelmed in latter part of the fight due to leaving too much evolved slublings alive. Ah yes, there are also deaths due to getting feared into poison (most dps builds do not have stunbreakers these days). Volatile poison can be deadly, too, but usually only due to secondary mechanics.
    If it was only those two mechanics you mentioned that you need to take care of, then everyone would be killing Sloth nowadays, and it would be considered to be easier than escort.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I understand the analogy however I'm reading through the boss mechanics and I'm seeing just 1-2 main mechanics in each 1. What are these other "simpler mechanics" that need to be learned and focused on? If you mean things like clearing conditions, dodging attacks and moving a boss through a certain area then surely these are things the players should have learned before going into the raid. Let's take Slothasor as an example. The fight has 2 main mechanics that players need to beware of. First is the volatile poison which needs to be taken away from the rest of the raid before being cleansed. The second is the poisoned arena that needs to be cleared by players consuming the inbued mushrooms. Are you really telling me that a group of raiders (who have probably cleared the t4 fractals dozens of times) can't cope with these 2 mechanics while fighting the boss?

    There's more to it than that. Incidentally, the most wipes at the early training level that i saw are not to those two - they are usually caused either by tantrum, or by fix positioning Sloth wrong (moving too slowly, positioning him with back to the slubling player, or on top of the mushroom, etc). Or just getting overwhelmed in latter part of the fight due to leaving too much evolved slublings alive. Ah yes, there are also deaths due to getting feared into poison (most dps builds do not have stunbreakers these days). Volatile poison can be deadly, too, but usually only due to secondary mechanics.
    If it was only those two mechanics you mentioned that you need to take care of, then everyone would be killing Sloth nowadays, and it would be considered to be easier than escort.

    So correct me if I'm wrong but, according to you, the 2 most common causes of wipes on Slothasor are due to people not dodging a big aoe attack and the tank not moving the boss correctly, oh and sometimes not switching focus to adds when needed. To me, these are basic mechanics that people should know before going into raids. After all, these are things that are required in a lot of fractals already. The swampland boss fight teaches you how to switch to killing adds and moving a boss around an arena, and there are tons of big aoe mechanics that need dodging from. Maybe it's because I haven't done the fights myself but I'm still struggling to see why these raid bosses are such a big deal.

  • miku.3025miku.3025 Member ✭✭

    the raider badge is good! :p ppl cant fake li anymore

  • @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I understand the analogy however I'm reading through the boss mechanics and I'm seeing just 1-2 main mechanics in each 1. What are these other "simpler mechanics" that need to be learned and focused on? If you mean things like clearing conditions, dodging attacks and moving a boss through a certain area then surely these are things the players should have learned before going into the raid. Let's take Slothasor as an example. The fight has 2 main mechanics that players need to beware of. First is the volatile poison which needs to be taken away from the rest of the raid before being cleansed. The second is the poisoned arena that needs to be cleared by players consuming the inbued mushrooms. Are you really telling me that a group of raiders (who have probably cleared the t4 fractals dozens of times) can't cope with these 2 mechanics while fighting the boss?

    There's more to it than that. Incidentally, the most wipes at the early training level that i saw are not to those two - they are usually caused either by tantrum, or by fix positioning Sloth wrong (moving too slowly, positioning him with back to the slubling player, or on top of the mushroom, etc). Or just getting overwhelmed in latter part of the fight due to leaving too much evolved slublings alive. Ah yes, there are also deaths due to getting feared into poison (most dps builds do not have stunbreakers these days). Volatile poison can be deadly, too, but usually only due to secondary mechanics.
    If it was only those two mechanics you mentioned that you need to take care of, then everyone would be killing Sloth nowadays, and it would be considered to be easier than escort.

    So correct me if I'm wrong but, according to you, the 2 most common causes of wipes on Slothasor are due to people not dodging a big aoe attack and the tank not moving the boss correctly, oh and sometimes not switching focus to adds when needed. To me, these are basic mechanics that people should know before going into raids. After all, these are things that are required in a lot of fractals already. The swampland boss fight teaches you how to switch to killing adds and moving a boss around an arena, and there are tons of big aoe mechanics that need dodging from. Maybe it's because I haven't done the fights myself but I'm still struggling to see why these raid bosses are such a big deal.

    Yes, it is very much due to the fact that you have not done the bosses yourself. Mechanics are generally always very simple on paper, but it does take time to learn how to deal with them properly while ensuring proper movement, cc, dps and so on. Additionally, you often rely on 9 other people to know their part, and to actually spot the mechanics they are subject to.

  • tekfan.3179tekfan.3179 Member ✭✭✭

    The training room: Yes! This so much. Or just add the function to spawn the mechanics and aoe-fields on the existing training-golem.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2017

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    Maybe it's because I haven't done the fights myself but I'm still struggling to see why these raid bosses are such a big deal.

    Do them, then, and we'll talk. You will see what i was trying to tell you.
    It may seem simple if you read about it (or see on youtube vid when performed by people that have perfected the encounter already), but it really isn't. I mean, all those things i have mentioned about would have been probably easy if they had to be done in vacuum, with no other things that are distracting you. In a raid encounter, they aren't - everything is thrown at you all at once. And there are other players around whose actions can interfere with your own.

    The idea of a training room is a good one, but i'd rather see one where a full squad can train the raid boss encounters while tweaking the mechanics (being able to enable/disable them individually).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    Maybe it's because I haven't done the fights myself but I'm still struggling to see why these raid bosses are such a big deal.

    Do them, then, and we'll talk. You will see what i was trying to tell you.
    It may seem simple if you read about it (or see on youtube vid when performed by people that have perfected the encounter already), but it really isn't. I mean, all those things i have mentioned about would have been probably easy if they had to be done in vacuum, with no other things that are distracting you. In a raid encounter, they aren't - everything is thrown at you all at once. And there are other players around whose actions can interfere with your own.

    The idea of a training room is a good one, but i'd rather see one where a full squad can train the raid boss encounters while tweaking the mechanics (being able to enable/disable them individually).

    You are absolutely right, it is easier to read about the mechanics than actually deal with them in a raiding scenario.....and pretty much every mechanic I've read about so far I have dealt with in previous games while raiding. That is why I am so confused, because I'm used to dealing with more mechanics than this, so I look at these bosses and think "is that all?" Maybe I'm just arrogant and it actually is harder than I think, but once again I'm comparing it to my previous experiences.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Baleroc
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sartharion
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Gluth

    These are the kind of boss fights I'm used to, in terms of complexity and number of mechanics to handle.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I understand the analogy however I'm reading through the boss mechanics and I'm seeing just 1-2 main mechanics in each 1. What are these other "simpler mechanics" that need to be learned and focused on? If you mean things like clearing conditions, dodging attacks and moving a boss through a certain area then surely these are things the players should have learned before going into the raid. Let's take Slothasor as an example. The fight has 2 main mechanics that players need to beware of. First is the volatile poison which needs to be taken away from the rest of the raid before being cleansed. The second is the poisoned arena that needs to be cleared by players consuming the inbued mushrooms. Are you really telling me that a group of raiders (who have probably cleared the t4 fractals dozens of times) can't cope with these 2 mechanics while fighting the boss?

    There's more to it than that. Incidentally, the most wipes at the early training level that i saw are not to those two - they are usually caused either by tantrum, or by fix positioning Sloth wrong (moving too slowly, positioning him with back to the slubling player, or on top of the mushroom, etc). Or just getting overwhelmed in latter part of the fight due to leaving too much evolved slublings alive. Ah yes, there are also deaths due to getting feared into poison (most dps builds do not have stunbreakers these days). Volatile poison can be deadly, too, but usually only due to secondary mechanics.
    If it was only those two mechanics you mentioned that you need to take care of, then everyone would be killing Sloth nowadays, and it would be considered to be easier than escort.

    So correct me if I'm wrong but, according to you, the 2 most common causes of wipes on Slothasor are due to people not dodging a big aoe attack and the tank not moving the boss correctly, oh and sometimes not switching focus to adds when needed. To me, these are basic mechanics that people should know before going into raids. After all, these are things that are required in a lot of fractals already. The swampland boss fight teaches you how to switch to killing adds and moving a boss around an arena, and there are tons of big aoe mechanics that need dodging from. Maybe it's because I haven't done the fights myself but I'm still struggling to see why these raid bosses are such a big deal.

    Well considering you have no tank on sloth since s/he randomly fixate people, that can be a problem you may get fixated the second you have droped off poison for example.
    Edit
    Just saw your wow bosses post, how many addons do you have helping you to spot and tell you to get out of mechanics?

  • @Linken.6345 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I understand the analogy however I'm reading through the boss mechanics and I'm seeing just 1-2 main mechanics in each 1. What are these other "simpler mechanics" that need to be learned and focused on? If you mean things like clearing conditions, dodging attacks and moving a boss through a certain area then surely these are things the players should have learned before going into the raid. Let's take Slothasor as an example. The fight has 2 main mechanics that players need to beware of. First is the volatile poison which needs to be taken away from the rest of the raid before being cleansed. The second is the poisoned arena that needs to be cleared by players consuming the inbued mushrooms. Are you really telling me that a group of raiders (who have probably cleared the t4 fractals dozens of times) can't cope with these 2 mechanics while fighting the boss?

    There's more to it than that. Incidentally, the most wipes at the early training level that i saw are not to those two - they are usually caused either by tantrum, or by fix positioning Sloth wrong (moving too slowly, positioning him with back to the slubling player, or on top of the mushroom, etc). Or just getting overwhelmed in latter part of the fight due to leaving too much evolved slublings alive. Ah yes, there are also deaths due to getting feared into poison (most dps builds do not have stunbreakers these days). Volatile poison can be deadly, too, but usually only due to secondary mechanics.
    If it was only those two mechanics you mentioned that you need to take care of, then everyone would be killing Sloth nowadays, and it would be considered to be easier than escort.

    So correct me if I'm wrong but, according to you, the 2 most common causes of wipes on Slothasor are due to people not dodging a big aoe attack and the tank not moving the boss correctly, oh and sometimes not switching focus to adds when needed. To me, these are basic mechanics that people should know before going into raids. After all, these are things that are required in a lot of fractals already. The swampland boss fight teaches you how to switch to killing adds and moving a boss around an arena, and there are tons of big aoe mechanics that need dodging from. Maybe it's because I haven't done the fights myself but I'm still struggling to see why these raid bosses are such a big deal.

    Well considering you have no tank on sloth since s/he randomly fixate people, that can be a problem you may get fixated the second you have droped off poison for example.
    Edit
    Just saw your wow bosses post, how many addons do you have helping you to spot and tell you to get out of mechanics?

    I had a feeling you'd bring this up. The main addon we use in WoW raiding is called Deadly Boss Mods (DBM for short), which gives us timings on the boss mechanics, and tells us who has been marked for certain mechanics. This is considered a necessary addon for raiding because the bosses don't telegraph their attacks like they do in GW2 and there are no big orange markers on the floor telling you where to stand. You also weren't told in the base WoW UI who was being targetted by certain mechanics, so for example I'm watching a Slothasor kill right now and during the fight you get a message on the screen saying "[player name] is currently fixated". This again wouldn't happen in WoW without DBM. So in short, the addons we use level the playing field and tell us things that GW2 tells you as standard without addons. The only other addon I used while raiding in WoW was a UI mod to allowed me to have all my hotbars visible at a time, and put them in a place that was convenient for me without taking up the whole of the screen.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I understand the analogy however I'm reading through the boss mechanics and I'm seeing just 1-2 main mechanics in each 1. What are these other "simpler mechanics" that need to be learned and focused on? If you mean things like clearing conditions, dodging attacks and moving a boss through a certain area then surely these are things the players should have learned before going into the raid. Let's take Slothasor as an example. The fight has 2 main mechanics that players need to beware of. First is the volatile poison which needs to be taken away from the rest of the raid before being cleansed. The second is the poisoned arena that needs to be cleared by players consuming the inbued mushrooms. Are you really telling me that a group of raiders (who have probably cleared the t4 fractals dozens of times) can't cope with these 2 mechanics while fighting the boss?

    There's more to it than that. Incidentally, the most wipes at the early training level that i saw are not to those two - they are usually caused either by tantrum, or by fix positioning Sloth wrong (moving too slowly, positioning him with back to the slubling player, or on top of the mushroom, etc). Or just getting overwhelmed in latter part of the fight due to leaving too much evolved slublings alive. Ah yes, there are also deaths due to getting feared into poison (most dps builds do not have stunbreakers these days). Volatile poison can be deadly, too, but usually only due to secondary mechanics.
    If it was only those two mechanics you mentioned that you need to take care of, then everyone would be killing Sloth nowadays, and it would be considered to be easier than escort.

    So correct me if I'm wrong but, according to you, the 2 most common causes of wipes on Slothasor are due to people not dodging a big aoe attack and the tank not moving the boss correctly, oh and sometimes not switching focus to adds when needed. To me, these are basic mechanics that people should know before going into raids. After all, these are things that are required in a lot of fractals already. The swampland boss fight teaches you how to switch to killing adds and moving a boss around an arena, and there are tons of big aoe mechanics that need dodging from. Maybe it's because I haven't done the fights myself but I'm still struggling to see why these raid bosses are such a big deal.

    Well considering you have no tank on sloth since s/he randomly fixate people, that can be a problem you may get fixated the second you have droped off poison for example.
    Edit
    Just saw your wow bosses post, how many addons do you have helping you to spot and tell you to get out of mechanics?

    I had a feeling you'd bring this up. The main addon we use in WoW raiding is called Deadly Boss Mods (DBM for short), which gives us timings on the boss mechanics, and tells us who has been marked for certain mechanics. This is considered a necessary addon for raiding because the bosses don't telegraph their attacks like they do in GW2 and there are no big orange markers on the floor telling you where to stand. You also weren't told in the base WoW UI who was being targetted by certain mechanics, so for example I'm watching a Slothasor kill right now and during the fight you get a message on the screen saying "[player name] is currently fixated". This again wouldn't happen in WoW without DBM. So in short, the addons we use level the playing field and tell us things that GW2 tells you as standard without addons. The only other addon I used while raiding in WoW was a UI mod to allowed me to have all my hotbars visible at a time, and put them in a place that was convenient for me without taking up the whole of the screen.

    And in gw2 we dont get timing on any mechanics you have to figure it out and then count in your head, some are random like sloths shakey shake, witch can be hard to spot when your staring at its butt.

  • Daniel.5428Daniel.5428 Member ✭✭✭

    @tekfan.3179 said:
    The training room: Yes! This so much. Or just add the function to spawn the mechanics and aoe-fields on the existing training-golem.

    Yes, it would work too. The things can be customize more or less, depending on their resources and time

  • @Linken.6345 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I understand the analogy however I'm reading through the boss mechanics and I'm seeing just 1-2 main mechanics in each 1. What are these other "simpler mechanics" that need to be learned and focused on? If you mean things like clearing conditions, dodging attacks and moving a boss through a certain area then surely these are things the players should have learned before going into the raid. Let's take Slothasor as an example. The fight has 2 main mechanics that players need to beware of. First is the volatile poison which needs to be taken away from the rest of the raid before being cleansed. The second is the poisoned arena that needs to be cleared by players consuming the inbued mushrooms. Are you really telling me that a group of raiders (who have probably cleared the t4 fractals dozens of times) can't cope with these 2 mechanics while fighting the boss?

    There's more to it than that. Incidentally, the most wipes at the early training level that i saw are not to those two - they are usually caused either by tantrum, or by fix positioning Sloth wrong (moving too slowly, positioning him with back to the slubling player, or on top of the mushroom, etc). Or just getting overwhelmed in latter part of the fight due to leaving too much evolved slublings alive. Ah yes, there are also deaths due to getting feared into poison (most dps builds do not have stunbreakers these days). Volatile poison can be deadly, too, but usually only due to secondary mechanics.
    If it was only those two mechanics you mentioned that you need to take care of, then everyone would be killing Sloth nowadays, and it would be considered to be easier than escort.

    So correct me if I'm wrong but, according to you, the 2 most common causes of wipes on Slothasor are due to people not dodging a big aoe attack and the tank not moving the boss correctly, oh and sometimes not switching focus to adds when needed. To me, these are basic mechanics that people should know before going into raids. After all, these are things that are required in a lot of fractals already. The swampland boss fight teaches you how to switch to killing adds and moving a boss around an arena, and there are tons of big aoe mechanics that need dodging from. Maybe it's because I haven't done the fights myself but I'm still struggling to see why these raid bosses are such a big deal.

    Well considering you have no tank on sloth since s/he randomly fixate people, that can be a problem you may get fixated the second you have droped off poison for example.
    Edit
    Just saw your wow bosses post, how many addons do you have helping you to spot and tell you to get out of mechanics?

    I had a feeling you'd bring this up. The main addon we use in WoW raiding is called Deadly Boss Mods (DBM for short), which gives us timings on the boss mechanics, and tells us who has been marked for certain mechanics. This is considered a necessary addon for raiding because the bosses don't telegraph their attacks like they do in GW2 and there are no big orange markers on the floor telling you where to stand. You also weren't told in the base WoW UI who was being targetted by certain mechanics, so for example I'm watching a Slothasor kill right now and during the fight you get a message on the screen saying "[player name] is currently fixated". This again wouldn't happen in WoW without DBM. So in short, the addons we use level the playing field and tell us things that GW2 tells you as standard without addons. The only other addon I used while raiding in WoW was a UI mod to allowed me to have all my hotbars visible at a time, and put them in a place that was convenient for me without taking up the whole of the screen.

    And in gw2 we dont get timing on any mechanics you have to figure it out and then count in your head, some are random like sloths shakey shake, witch can be hard to spot when your staring at its butt.

    This is why I'm curious to fight the bosses for myself, to see how it feels to react to the mechanics without a timer. How many mechanics would you say are guarantee to cause a wipe if done incorrectly? Things like the green circles on vale guardian for example.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    This is why I'm curious to fight the bosses for myself, to see how it feels to react to the mechanics without a timer. How many mechanics would you say are guarantee to cause a wipe if done incorrectly? Things like the green circles on vale guardian for example.

    On Sloth? Let me see...
    None. On the other hand, Greens on VG are also not a guaranteed fail (you can survive if you had full hp, you can be ressed if you only got downed, and even if you die, the rest of the group can try to continue).
    Still, there are several mechanics failing whose is usually a cause for /gg
    First is poison: drop it in the wrong place, and the poison will kill you. But it won't happen immediately, so you still have a bit of a time to kill the boss first. Of course, if that happened in the late stages of the fight, otherwise it is a delayed wipe with practically no chance of reversal.
    Second is mushrooms: if you kill the slubling before the player has a chance to clear the path... well, you have a big problem.
    The other mechanics may seem all lesser compared to that, as they are not as total. They are not the certain death button, but more like a death of thousand papercuts - they don't work on a "succed/fail the fight" binary, they cause attrition that is slowly lowering your capability to succesfully continue on. In short, they kill individual players off.
    Still, if your team will eat the shakes, or your healer will dodge tantrum into an aoe from someone else's, or your fix wanders into the flamebreath, or some of your dps get feared off to the other side of the room... well, too much of those, and you might just /gg as well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • CrustyBot.3564CrustyBot.3564 Member ✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    Sloth is a pretty fun fight. Lots of individual responsibility and emphasis on handling mechanics over straight up golem practice. It's a great snowball fight too. Bit of a pug slayer too. Nothing really insta-kills you, but the more mistakes made, the quicker it snowballs out of control. It would be a fight where you can't just scale numbers, you'd have to change the timing of attacks, make eaten mushrooms clear the field for longer, etc. Do a lot of things that changes the nature of the fight in order to create an easy mode. So it simultaneously would not be trivial to create an easy mode, and would also be a bad training/introduction for normal mode.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @Zania.8461 said:
    1) This will get moved to Raids and Dungeons forums
    2) This is not a problem with the game, but self-imposed problem by the community, so I highly doubt ANet will want to dedicate resources to it
    3) Each piece of legendary armor after first set is 50 LI

    1) Yeah, my mistake there.
    2) well, the community is the main aspect on a MMO. Solving community problems will make it a better place for future player who will buy the game and maybe will make them stick with it.
    3) Yup, forgot this detail too. I crafted only one set. Anyway, it can be easly determined how many LI a player have. I doubt people were deleting them.

    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

  • Daniel.5428Daniel.5428 Member ✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    This is why I'm curious to fight the bosses for myself, to see how it feels to react to the mechanics without a timer. How many mechanics would you say are guarantee to cause a wipe if done incorrectly? Things like the green circles on vale guardian for example.

    On Sloth? Let me see...
    None. On the other hand, Greens on VG are also not a guaranteed fail (you can survive if you had full hp, you can be ressed if you only got downed, and even if you die, the rest of the group can try to continue).
    Still, there are several mechanics failing whose is usually a cause for /gg
    First is poison: drop it in the wrong place, and the poison will kill you. But it won't happen immediately, so you still have a bit of a time to kill the boss first. Of course, if that happened in the late stages of the fight, otherwise it is a delayed wipe with practically no chance of reversal.
    Second is mushrooms: if you kill the slubling before the player has a chance to clear the path... well, you have a big problem.
    The other mechanics may seem all lesser compared to that, as they are not as total. They are not the certain death button, but more like a death of thousand papercuts - they don't work on a "succed/fail the fight" binary, they cause attrition that is slowly lowering your capability to succesfully continue on. In short, they kill individual players off.
    Still, if your team will eat the shakes, or your healer will dodge tantrum into an aoe from someone else's, or your fix wanders into the flamebreath, or some of your dps get feared off to the other side of the room... well, too much of those, and you might just /gg as well.

    I actually meant across all the bosses, as it's clear that Sloth is a pressure fight that can slowly kill off raid members 1 by 1 rather than wiping the raid in 1 go.

  • @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    I have a feeling people overemphasize damage meters for actual raid purposes and replacement of players.

    Here's how the damage meter gets used in raids I'm member or lead of:

    • get a general overview of how high raid dps is. experienced raiders know where the break off points are and when you might start running into issues. these values are VERY lenient and no good raid lead will kick someone for not bringing perfect dps as long as it's across the board decent. The value for decent depends highly on what group is run. No good raid leader will expect max level numbers from a training group
    • comparison of builds. When people jump on new builds for fight or want to try something different it very useful to have a direct comparison, especially if the entire raid comp stays the same
    • check support boon up times if needed (mostly in training runs, first place to check if an experienced run is going poorly)
    • give players advice on rotation (this will happen a lot on training runs)
    • finally IF exchanges need to be made based on damage, then damage meters will pick who to replace first.

    What most people seem not to realize, the reasons people get replaced are 8 out of 10 times absolutely damage meter independent. The more experienced the group, the easier people will spot bad play. Using Sloth as an example for an experienced group:

    • drop poison on the group 1 times to often, you are out
    • entangle the transformed player a couple of times, you are out
    • don't move when you are tank, you are out
    • stand in front of him repeatedly and eat the flame breath attack and go down/die repeatedly, you are out
    • don't eat your mushroom and clear, you are out
    • pull the transformed player repeatedly with skill, you are out

    Those are the main reasons why people would get replaced on Sloth. None of them is in any way damage dependent. I think I've never seen any one get replaced on Sloth due to bad damage in groups I've been there. The more complex the fight and dependent on mechanics, the less you will see people get removed for damage purposes but instead for failing mechanics.

  • @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

    Actually that has to do with bringing the wrong build to the boss fight. Yes, damage meter would only show the difference, but any good raid lead knows which fights favor which type of builds.

    KC is heavily favoring burst power builds. Doesn't mean that the raid leader is wrong to replace slow condi builds if the overall raid damage is insufficient.

    The damage meter in this simply shows the disparity between build optimization for a certain fight.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

    what encounter are we talking here about?
    if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.
    but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

  • Wandering Mist.2973Wandering Mist.2973 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

    what encounter are we talking here about?
    if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.
    but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

    This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

    what encounter are we talking here about?
    if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.
    but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

    This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

    well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense)

  • @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

    what encounter are we talking here about?
    if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.
    but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

    This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

    well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense)

    It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    This is odd and not true. Fortunately we have GW2Raidar now that tracks actual stats.
    The average dps of a Power Weaver is 14584 while the "elite raiders" say 47896 on the golem?
    To be a bit more specific, Keep Construct average Power Weaver dps is 27262, Keep Construct has a large hitbox, large hitbox expected dps is 47896.
    This rather clearly shows that "kicks because you don't have enough dps" are probably less common than people claim.
    The 99% damage of Power Weaver on Keep Construct is 39303, that's a rather HUGE difference from the 27262 average dps.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

    what encounter are we talking here about?
    if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.
    but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

    This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

    well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense)

    It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss.

    so you are criticizing the "meta mentality" and the dps meter as proof for it? in this case i have to say some build work better on bosses, and others are, well abysall.
    and as mention above, first its on the player him/herself to judge if used build is good for this encounter, and then secondly the commander to check for her/himself with the use of the dps meter if said player is contibuting in a desired way.
    since it was aparently a wow incident i can´t realy talk about it, if this would have happen in gw2 it would sound to me like :
    commander let you join with a not optimal build for this encounter, and after checking his given metrics he decided to let you go (both caused by the availability of dps meters)

  • Wandering Mist.2973Wandering Mist.2973 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

    what encounter are we talking here about?
    if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.
    but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

    This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

    well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense)

    It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss.

    so you are criticizing the "meta mentality" and the dps meter as proof for it? in this case i have to say some build work better on bosses, and others are, well abysall.
    and as mention above, first its on the player him/herself to judge if used build is good for this encounter, and then secondly the commander to check for her/himself with the use of the dps meter if said player is contibuting in a desired way.
    since it was aparently a wow incident i can´t realy talk about it, if this would have happen in gw2 it would sound to me like :
    commander let you join with a not optimal build for this encounter, and after checking his given metrics he decided to let you go (both caused by the availability of dps meters)

    It's more about expressing my continued confusion over the insistence of running only meta builds in raids. I could understand if the bosses were so hard that you needed a specific teamcomp in order to beat it, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. When you can beat a boss with as little as 2 people, who cares what other people you bring to the fight? Surely it's better to bring a player who knows the mechanics of the fight and can execute them over someone who doesn't, regardless of what build they are using.

    Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? Remember that I'm not talking about speed runs here, but basic clears. If you haven't tried, and are just going by the word of the top guilds, then in my opinion you are a sheep blindly following the shepherd. I'm sorry if that term offends anyone but I can't think of another term to describe such people.

    EDIT: Oh and I'm talking about guild groups here, not PUGs. I can understand PUGs running meta comps, but in the past month I have join 4 different raiding guilds, and all of them insisted in running the meta builds and only the meta builds. Maybe I've just gotten unlucky, but my gut tells me that isn't the case.

  • sigur.9453sigur.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @sigur.9453 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:

    @Daniel.5428 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Theres greater satisfaction when the community solves its own problems. For examples look no further than the current events they were adding last year.

    Is hard to change it now. The raiding community is just following the acting of the elite raiders. If an elite raider said that an ele must have 25k+ on a golem (example) then the rest of the raiding community will kick you if you do not have that much.

    And this is the problem when you have a dps meter that people don't know how to use properly. There are many things that can affect your dps in a raid that I'm pretty sure arcdps doesn't track. Things like barbreaking and cleansing conditions for example aren't going to show up on the dps meter and these are things that are very important to the success of the encounter. The actual boss mechanics can also have an impact particularly if you were dealing with a mechanic that caused you to stop attacking the boss temporarily.

    Simply put, players need to put a lot less emphasis and importance on dps meters because unless the boss is a pure tank and spank fight you will likely never get the same dps as you will on the practice golem.

    Breaking the bar and cleasing conditions are not a good example here because these actions are gerneraly done be simply pressing one ore two buttons and should not lower you dps in a wide range. you right on the mechanic part though, but i have never encountert any situation where someone received negatic words because he dealt with mechanics in any form (sabetha cannons, portet at xera,green on vg,...) . Yet if you are an experienced raider you know how much dps should be done on average on a specific encounter incuded dealing with mechanics.
    btw: arc offers far more then pure dps numbers, it tracks mechanical fails, rezzes, downstates, buff uptime, even the rotation you did. other that that its often quite obvioius if someone isn´t very experienced on an encounter or class.
    to the previous comment: noone is expecting you to deal golem numbers, but if you are far behind the other dps classes or even support classes, you are doing something wrong.

    It's not just individual mechanics but sometimes the fight as a whole. For example let's say you had a fight that constantly required you to switch targets and quickly burst down a target. A class or build with a long ramp up time would struggle to put up decent numbers compared to a class with high burst damage. I've had times in the past where a raid leader hasn't understood the way my build works in the fight and has kicked me from the raid purely because I didn't put up the same numbers as someone else with higher burst potential. That is the danger with relying too much on dps meters and not taking into account the nature of the boss fight.

    what encounter are we talking here about?
    if fast add clearing would have been so important you would have brought a burst heavy class do beginn with. but yes, sounds like an unexperience leader then.
    but on the other hand, yourself should know your build so well that you yourself should estimate if its viable/usefull in this fight (again, i don´t know wich encounter needs over the top add cleaning or switching targets in large numbers)

    This happened when I was raiding in WoW. Actually when it comes to build viability in encounters, the only time I can think of in my raiding career where raid teams flat out refused dps spots to certain classes was on 1 particular fight that required an insane amount of instant burst damage (for anyone who raided in WoW cataclysm, I'm talking about Spine of Deathwing Heroic). Simply put, there were only 2 builds that had the burst dps needed to complete the fight, so all your dps players had to run either of those 2 builds otherwise the fight was literally impossible. Yes there were always times where a fight favoured a particular class or build but this was the only time I can remember where players were flat out forced to change in order to beat the boss.

    well, since this a gw2 releated threat i can´t help you there, nor do i know what the value is bringing it to this disscussion (no offense)

    It was just an example of how judging a player's worth on a single encounter based purely on dps meter numbers is generally a very bad practice. I get the feeling that far too often in this game, players put far too much emphasis on dps meters for deciding the worth of a build in raiding. dps is only a small part of what is needed to beat a raid boss.

    so you are criticizing the "meta mentality" and the dps meter as proof for it? in this case i have to say some build work better on bosses, and others are, well abysall.
    and as mention above, first its on the player him/herself to judge if used build is good for this encounter, and then secondly the commander to check for her/himself with the use of the dps meter if said player is contibuting in a desired way.
    since it was aparently a wow incident i can´t realy talk about it, if this would have happen in gw2 it would sound to me like :
    commander let you join with a not optimal build for this encounter, and after checking his given metrics he decided to let you go (both caused by the availability of dps meters)

    It's more about expressing my continued confusion over the insistence of running only meta builds in raids. I could understand if the bosses were so hard that you needed a specific teamcomp in order to beat it, but that doesn't appear to be the case here. When you can beat a boss with as little as 2 people, who cares what other people you bring to the fight? Surely it's better to bring a player who knows the mechanics of the fight and can execute them over someone who doesn't, regardless of what build they are using.

    Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid? Remember that I'm not talking about speed runs here, but basic clears. If you haven't tried, and are just going by the word of the top guilds, then in my opinion you are a sheep blindly following the shepherd. I'm sorry if that term offends anyone but I can't think of another term to describe such people.

    you can clear almost every boss with almost every setup, true.
    but you need to emphatise on other people to.
    the phrase "speedrun" doesn´t only translate to, well, being fast, it also translates to, easiest way to do it. (more dps = less mechanics)
    other then that there are speedclear tactics and "pug tactics" where "easy kill" is also a goal. (deimos middle, one extra healer,...) where you are also "forced" to adapt.

    in the end its on the commander to deside witch way to follow, and of course, again of you, because you decide which groups you join. you can in fact still "play how you want", but not with everyone you might want. and of course possibly not with the same outcome.
    i would fall in the sheep catagoury as you put it, i follow build guides because i have every class but no knowledge of every class. yet with this guides im able to contribute to the team in in efficient (=fun for me) way. does that make me a sheep? does following anyones guidens or help turn you into a sheep? doe i have less fun playing those builds? its button mashing after all, whatever build you use.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I actually meant across all the bosses, as it's clear that Sloth is a pressure fight that can slowly kill off raid members 1 by 1 rather than wiping the raid in 1 go.

    There are a few then. In W1 there's the Gorse's spirits. In W2 there are the saboteurs at Trio. In W3 there's wargs at Escort (and well, generally keeping Glenna alive), three spirits and colored orbs' catching at KC. In w4 it's keeping Saul alive at Deimos. Can't say anything about w5, as i haven't seen it yet.
    Notice, there aren't that many of those, and they are almost never the primary cause of the wipes. Matthias, for example is considered to be a hard boss, but has no "guaranteed fail" mechanics. It's just a survival game with ton of pressure mechanics.
    Edit: Right, forgot Xera. Failing minigames or incorrectly placing the protect dome will cause wipe and at least the first one is a thing that does happen.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

    Examples:

    10-guardians only

    No Chrono:

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Don't think it is that hard to fix all of these KP issues or the gear linking and faking information nonsense. Just look at other games. A simple yet customizable character page is all we need. Allowing you to display anything from gear to boss kills, your build or specific achievements you have earned. Displaying any of this would be completely optional of course. Having it turned off by default and allowing you to be shy if that is your wish. I am quite aware of the outcry this would cause with a specific group of players even if it was completely optional.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • @Henry.5713 said:
    Don't think it is that hard to fix all of these KP issues or the gear linking and faking information nonsense. Just look at other games. A simple yet customizable character page is all we need. Allowing you to display anything from gear to boss kills, your build or specific achievements you have earned. Displaying any of this would be completely optional of course. Having it turned off by default and allowing you to be shy if that is your wish. I am quite aware of the outcry this would cause with a specific group of players even if it was completely optional.

    I think the reason why they didn't put that in before was the same reason why they didn't allow dps meters at the beginning: To discourage elitism. Unfortunately elitism is here whether they like it or not, so they might as well put it in anyway.

  • Daniel.5428Daniel.5428 Member ✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    I think the reason why they didn't put that in before was the same reason why they didn't allow dps meters at the beginning: To discourage elitism. Unfortunately elitism is here whether they like it or not, so they might as well put it in anyway.

    If they wanted to discourage elitism, then they should have balance all classes and builds to work well with raids.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

    Examples:

    10-guardians only

    No Chrono:

    Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

    Examples:

    10-guardians only

    No Chrono:

    Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

    Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

    There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

  • Neutra.6857Neutra.6857 Member ✭✭✭

    For that training room, maybe they can add the Xera gliding platforms....So many people mess up during the gliding part.

  • @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

    Examples:

    10-guardians only

    No Chrono:

    Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

    Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

    There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

    That's why I'm curious to know how much harder (if at all) the raids are without a chrono and druid in the group.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    That's why I'm curious to know how much harder (if at all) the raids are without a chrono and druid in the group.

    It depends I guess what builds the other people are running :)
    And of course it depends on the boss. A chrono tank is marginally useful in any encounter that doesn't require an actual tank.
    The most important aspect of a Chrono is distortion sharing that makes some hard encounters easy and there isn't anything like that in any other build.

    But a Druid? Not really required, there are better healers in the game. Although now Druid is the best at stacking might so there is that.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wandering Mist.2973 said:
    That's why I'm curious to know how much harder (if at all) the raids are without a chrono and druid in the group.

    It depends I guess what builds the other people are running :)
    And of course it depends on the boss. A chrono tank is marginally useful in any encounter that doesn't require an actual tank.
    The most important aspect of a Chrono is distortion sharing that makes some hard encounters easy and there isn't anything like that in any other build.

    But a Druid? Not really required, there are better healers in the game. Although now Druid is the best at stacking might so there is that.

    I always find it amusing that people associate distortion sharing with Chrono spec, when in fact it's a core mesmer trait (part of the inspiration line). I actually did look at putting distortion sharing into my mirage build, but the dps loss was too great to make it worthwhile.

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