Not sure about this, but condi builds are even more behind power now?

I'm reading the patch notes and it seems Condi Scourge, Weaver, Engineer, Soulbeast, Daredevil, Firebrand, Renegade and Warrior got nerfed.

Not necessarily.

Cool downs will play a factor but theoretically the dps of Condi is basically exactly the same.

No, condi is fine.

Not to mention many people still have condi duration which means that you can effectively double the strength of these conditions and re-apply them by the time your initial cd is up.

In most cases, the total damage over time is the same for condi. What changed is how quickly the conditions apply that damage, e.g. some skills used to apply 2 stacks for 5 seconds and now apply 1 stack for 10 seconds. That's a 50% reduction in burst and a 0% reduction in damage if the condition lasts its full duration. And that's always been the intention for conditions.

I wish the game had the tech to apply condi stacks incrementally, e.g. the first hit is for 1x damage, the second at 1.5x, the third at 2x. 10 seconds is longer than some foes last. In the meantime, however, longer duration conditions with smaller stacks seems like a good place to start making condi less bursty.

"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

condi was behind if you consider all raid boss + fractal . the belief that condi was op before patch in pve was simply not true (decent maybe ).

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

In many cases, a mix of condi/power is preferred in raids. The amount of bosses that strictly benefit from power or condi arent vastly different, at least not pre-patch

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

if the many cases you meant vg only maybe

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

Sigh :)In many cases you can take a condi or power class in order to buff others, or for other reasons. You probably won’t see this in pugs, but in speedruns it happens quite a bit.

Pre patch:VG: power preferred, can take a condi for red but cdruid, cwar and a holo will do fine.Gorse: power is generally better, but renegades help with faster splits.Sabetha: most fast kills use condi, but power holo is good as wellSloth: powerTrio: who caresMatthias: condi, holo works fine too as buffer and dpsEscort: power up, down doesn’t matterKc: powerXera: power/condi. Weaver + renegade combo is great.Cairn: condi + holoMO: condi+holoSamarog: powerDeimos: powerDesmina: condiSoul River: powerStatues: powerDhuum: mix

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

i know about those buffs . but that's hardly to do with dmg type . its really just condi buff is on engi and power buff is on rev .and anet gave those buff when they were trying to buff condi engi and power herald .i won't call that as mixed of condi and power is preferred .

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

And you ignored the boss-by-boss list which made the actual point. It depends on the specifics of the fight. Power is preferable on some, condi is superior on others.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

the list looks like power is still (slight ) better to me .

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

Perfect balance is a very rare sight. Plus the bias varies in magnitude from boss to boss, i.e. KC vastly favors power whereas on Gorse you can play either and not lose much.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

We’ve had the same discussion in the mesmer forums, I even wrote out the average dps on boss from raidar for median runs which show power and condi were almost equal on most bosses with a few exceptions like KC and Sam for power, Cairn and Matthias for condi. If you take the 90th percentile it didn’t exactly change much either except weaver pulls ahead on more fights especially on cleave. 99th percentile is where things do indeed show as in the list above.

I have yet to see anyone prove the trend that condition builds were significantly behind power builds before this patch.

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

Note that my list is from a speedclear perspective. For pugs, I'd argue that condi would be beneficial on a majority of bosses because it generally is more forgiving and easier to do "decent" damage(especially considering pug strats like 0 cc gorseval).

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

then i agree , but in fractal power is still better in most cases .even we say they are roughly equalpeople did believe that condi was outdps power build in pve . maybe their opinions are based on the pug group they joined .hence why replied to other person earlier that condi build op was a false belief .

but again , i don't think this patch changed anything for power vs condition in pve . funny i think it didn't even change anything for pvp since mirage and scourge are still quite op and they are the only two condition builds in pvp .

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

Wrong. It's only better in low teir fractals. Anyone worth their salt does T4, and condi builds reign supreme in t4 fractals by far.

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

LOL what?!?! Are you serious? :lol:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

how about tell your chrono run something like AT or disenchantist ?

@musu.9205 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

Who needs that when i main necro and strip the boons myself? And always have the top dps in every fractal i run with randoms. With a condi necro no less.

I'm not saying power builds are weak, but condi builds are just better for long drawn out fights, especially if you have to kite something. They were bursty enough before where you didn't need to run power, and got similar if not better spike dps, ESPECIALLY if you know how to precast and not be a scrub. And they are easy to play compared to some of the higher dps power builds.

You statement is also assuming I'm running in a static, running with a chrono i know, or even have a chrono in the party. It's t4 fractals, which are easy enough for me as is while pugging. I don't need boonstrip when im doing it myself.

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

Just because you never played in a decent group doesn't mean condi builds are better in fractals.

"Even more behind", what?

You do realize that for the most part, Condition builds reign supreme in content like Raids/Fractals and have for a long time now.

@"Odokuro.5049" said:"Even more behind", what?

You do realize that for the most part, Condition builds reign supreme in content like Raids/Fractals and have for a long time now.

No they do not. Raids have been a decent mix if not slightly in favor of power for awhile now and Fractals have always been in favor of power because of how fast things die. Even 100 CM is power favored due to every boss having phases that make condi useless. Also with Arkk how it is with anomalies exploding so quickly it is definitely power favored.

We should be upset with how many power builds are unviable right now not that condi is doing balanced dps.

@Vulf.3098 said:

@"Odokuro.5049" said:"Even more behind", what?

You do realize that for the most part, Condition builds reign supreme in content like Raids/Fractals and have for a long time now.

beside invuln phase ,cm 100 and cm 99 also has long breakbar stun which heavily favors power dmg .

Condi builds where way ahead of power builds before patch. Only DH (for the insane burst), power tmp/W for KC and holosmiths (largely for the buff to condies) were always meta on the raids. And fractals were overwhelmingly favoring condis. The only thing this did was balance thing out a bit. They only nerfed the condi burst not the actual damage. Actually from what i hear from scourge players condi scourge even got a ~2k buff.

So at this point there is a nice mix of both depending on the fractals or raid boss. Which is what the devs actually wanted instead of one completely prevailing over the other.