Not sure about this, but condi builds are even more behind power now?

[Feanor.2358]

Reality check, most of the t4+cms groups were running two weavers. And still do.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Turin.6921 said:Condi builds where way ahead of power builds before patch. Only DH (for the insane burst), power tmp/W for KC and holosmiths (largely for the buff to condies) were always meta on the raids. And fractals were overwhelmingly favoring condis. The only thing this did was balance thing out a bit. They only nerfed the condi burst not the actual damage. Actually from what i hear from scourge players condi scourge even got a ~2k buff.

So at this point there is a nice mix of both depending on the fractals or raid boss. Which is what the devs actually wanted instead of one completely prevailing over the other.

You are way out of touch with endgame, especially fractals. Fractals have been favoring power for a long time now.

Weaver, DH, Holo are all superior in fractals as power now. Scourge works in fractals because it provides barrier and has epi.

[Belorn.2659]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

condi was behind if you consider all raid boss + fractal . the belief that condi was op before patch in pve was simply not true (decent maybe ).

In many cases, a mix of condi/power is preferred in raids. The amount of bosses that strictly benefit from power or condi arent vastly different, at least not pre-patch

if the many cases you meant vg only maybe

Sigh :)In many cases you can take a condi or power class in order to buff others, or for other reasons. You probably won’t see this in pugs, but in speedruns it happens quite a bit.

Pre patch:VG: power preferred, can take a condi for red but cdruid, cwar and a holo will do fine.Gorse: power is generally better, but renegades help with faster splits.Sabetha: most fast kills use condi, but power holo is good as wellSloth: powerTrio: who caresMatthias: condi, holo works fine too as buffer and dpsEscort: power up, down doesn’t matterKc: powerXera: power/condi. Weaver + renegade combo is great.Cairn: condi + holoMO: condi+holoSamarog: powerDeimos: powerDesmina: condiSoul River: powerStatues: powerDhuum: mix

i know about those buffs . but that's hardly to do with dmg type . its really just condi buff is on engi and power buff is on rev .and anet gave those buff when they were trying to buff condi engi and power herald .i won't call that as mixed of condi and power is preferred .

And you ignored the boss-by-boss list which made the actual point. It depends on the specifics of the fight. Power is preferable on some, condi is superior on others.

We’ve had the same discussion in the mesmer forums, I even wrote out the average dps on boss from raidar for median runs which show power and condi were almost equal on most bosses with a few exceptions like KC and Sam for power, Cairn and Matthias for condi. If you take the 90th percentile it didn’t exactly change much either except weaver pulls ahead on more fights especially on cleave. 99th percentile is where things do indeed show as in the list above.

I have yet to see anyone prove the trend that condition builds were significantly behind power builds before this patch.

This. We have data. Its there. Anyone can go and look at the data from last patch at https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/5 and see for themselves. Condi was not "behind" power in raids on the average, and not even in the top 10% of runs. You have to go to the top 1% of the upload records to start to see a preference for power, and those groups follow a very different tactic and skip most raid mechanics.

For t4 fractals, just wait until reset and see what people advertise. There is plenty of "condi only" groups. I generally find that the groups that want to do all of cm 100/99 + t4 + rec tend to be power balance because they have a chrono, 25might druid, and condi ps with banners, which mean that the parasitic trait of necro is not very useful. Banners still favor power by a bit.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Belorn.2659 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

condi was behind if you consider all raid boss + fractal . the belief that condi was op before patch in pve was simply not true (decent maybe ).

In many cases, a mix of condi/power is preferred in raids. The amount of bosses that strictly benefit from power or condi arent vastly different, at least not pre-patch

if the many cases you meant vg only maybe

Sigh :)In many cases you can take a condi or power class in order to buff others, or for other reasons. You probably won’t see this in pugs, but in speedruns it happens quite a bit.

Pre patch:VG: power preferred, can take a condi for red but cdruid, cwar and a holo will do fine.Gorse: power is generally better, but renegades help with faster splits.Sabetha: most fast kills use condi, but power holo is good as wellSloth: powerTrio: who caresMatthias: condi, holo works fine too as buffer and dpsEscort: power up, down doesn’t matterKc: powerXera: power/condi. Weaver + renegade combo is great.Cairn: condi + holoMO: condi+holoSamarog: powerDeimos: powerDesmina: condiSoul River: powerStatues: powerDhuum: mix

i know about those buffs . but that's hardly to do with dmg type . its really just condi buff is on engi and power buff is on rev .and anet gave those buff when they were trying to buff condi engi and power herald .i won't call that as mixed of condi and power is preferred .

And you ignored the boss-by-boss list which made the actual point. It depends on the specifics of the fight. Power is preferable on some, condi is superior on others.

We’ve had the same discussion in the mesmer forums, I even wrote out the average dps on boss from raidar for median runs which show power and condi were almost equal on most bosses with a few exceptions like KC and Sam for power, Cairn and Matthias for condi. If you take the 90th percentile it didn’t exactly change much either except weaver pulls ahead on more fights especially on cleave. 99th percentile is where things do indeed show as in the list above.

I have yet to see anyone prove the trend that condition builds were significantly behind power builds before this patch.

This. We have data. Its there. Anyone can go and look at the data from last patch at

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/5

and see for themselves. Condi was not "behind" power in raids on the average, and not even in the top 10% of runs. You have to go to the top 1% of the upload records to start to see a preference for power, and those groups follow a very different tactic and skip most raid mechanics.

For t4 fractals, just wait until reset and see what people advertise. There is plenty of "condi only" groups. I generally find that the groups that want to do all of cm 100/99 + t4 + rec tend to be power balance because they have a chrono, 25might druid, and condi ps with banners, which mean that the parasitic trait of necro is not very useful. Banners still favor power by a bit.

If you actually go through all the bosses individually, you'll notice that power (especially weaver) is ahead on most with Holo and DH slightly behind. The condi build that sort of can compete is Daredevil, now tell me, how many Daredevil do you see on average in raids?

If looking only at fractals on Arkk CM Weaver pulls ahead by a lot and DH and Holo are on par with their condi counterparts. Same goes for Artsariiv CM.

We do have values I agree, and they clearly show that condi is in no way superior to power on most bosses.

[Hesacon.8735]

I carry epidemic on a power necro in fractals because it still melts groups when there are other condi builds on my team.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Hesacon.8735 said:I carry epidemic on a power necro in fractals because it still melts groups when there are other condi builds on my team.

That has more to do with how overpowered epidemic is and what for an insane damage multiplier it is in form of a single utility skill. Less with condi or power being strong against each other. Epi essentially let's you copy someone elses complete rotation with the press of 1 button, on to 5 targets.

[Feanor.2358]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

condi was behind if you consider all raid boss + fractal . the belief that condi was op before patch in pve was simply not true (decent maybe ).

In many cases, a mix of condi/power is preferred in raids. The amount of bosses that strictly benefit from power or condi arent vastly different, at least not pre-patch

if the many cases you meant vg only maybe

Sigh :)In many cases you can take a condi or power class in order to buff others, or for other reasons. You probably won’t see this in pugs, but in speedruns it happens quite a bit.

Pre patch:VG: power preferred, can take a condi for red but cdruid, cwar and a holo will do fine.Gorse: power is generally better, but renegades help with faster splits.Sabetha: most fast kills use condi, but power holo is good as wellSloth: powerTrio: who caresMatthias: condi, holo works fine too as buffer and dpsEscort: power up, down doesn’t matterKc: powerXera: power/condi. Weaver + renegade combo is great.Cairn: condi + holoMO: condi+holoSamarog: powerDeimos: powerDesmina: condiSoul River: powerStatues: powerDhuum: mix

i know about those buffs . but that's hardly to do with dmg type . its really just condi buff is on engi and power buff is on rev .and anet gave those buff when they were trying to buff condi engi and power herald .i won't call that as mixed of condi and power is preferred .

And you ignored the boss-by-boss list which made the actual point. It depends on the specifics of the fight. Power is preferable on some, condi is superior on others.

We’ve had the same discussion in the mesmer forums, I even wrote out the average dps on boss from raidar for median runs which show power and condi were almost equal on most bosses with a few exceptions like KC and Sam for power, Cairn and Matthias for condi. If you take the 90th percentile it didn’t exactly change much either except weaver pulls ahead on more fights especially on cleave. 99th percentile is where things do indeed show as in the list above.

I have yet to see anyone prove the trend that condition builds were significantly behind power builds before this patch.

This. We have data. Its there. Anyone can go and look at the data from last patch at

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/5

and see for themselves. Condi was not "behind" power in raids on the average, and not even in the top 10% of runs. You have to go to the top 1% of the upload records to start to see a preference for power, and those groups follow a very different tactic and skip most raid mechanics.

For t4 fractals, just wait until reset and see what people advertise. There is plenty of "condi only" groups. I generally find that the groups that want to do all of cm 100/99 + t4 + rec tend to be power balance because they have a chrono, 25might druid, and condi ps with banners, which mean that the parasitic trait of necro is not very useful. Banners still favor power by a bit.

If you actually go through all the bosses individually, you'll notice that power (especially weaver) is ahead on most with Holo and DH slightly behind. The condi build that sort of can compete is Daredevil, now tell me, how many Daredevil do you see on average in raids?

If looking only at fractals on Arkk CM Weaver pulls ahead by a lot and DH and Holo are on par with their condi counterparts. Same goes for Artsariiv CM.

We do have values I agree, and they clearly show that condi is in no way superior to power on most bosses.

Depends where do you choose to look at. 90th percentile? 99th percentile? Median? The conclusions will vary depending on these, as Weaver undoubtedly has highest potential, but it also is the quickest to lose out on it due to unfavorable conditions and subpar performance, both on your own part and your teammates'. If you're not looking at the top performance, condi builds could actually pull ahead, or at least not trail by much. But at the top, yeah, power wins. And the thing about fractals is, they're easier, hence it is easier for power to be superior. That's why I find the claims of "condi reigning supreme" in fractals laughable. No, they don't. Unless you're playing with pretty bad pugs.

[apharma.3741]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

condi was behind if you consider all raid boss + fractal . the belief that condi was op before patch in pve was simply not true (decent maybe ).

In many cases, a mix of condi/power is preferred in raids. The amount of bosses that strictly benefit from power or condi arent vastly different, at least not pre-patch

if the many cases you meant vg only maybe

Sigh :)In many cases you can take a condi or power class in order to buff others, or for other reasons. You probably won’t see this in pugs, but in speedruns it happens quite a bit.

Pre patch:VG: power preferred, can take a condi for red but cdruid, cwar and a holo will do fine.Gorse: power is generally better, but renegades help with faster splits.Sabetha: most fast kills use condi, but power holo is good as wellSloth: powerTrio: who caresMatthias: condi, holo works fine too as buffer and dpsEscort: power up, down doesn’t matterKc: powerXera: power/condi. Weaver + renegade combo is great.Cairn: condi + holoMO: condi+holoSamarog: powerDeimos: powerDesmina: condiSoul River: powerStatues: powerDhuum: mix

i know about those buffs . but that's hardly to do with dmg type . its really just condi buff is on engi and power buff is on rev .and anet gave those buff when they were trying to buff condi engi and power herald .i won't call that as mixed of condi and power is preferred .

And you ignored the boss-by-boss list which made the actual point. It depends on the specifics of the fight. Power is preferable on some, condi is superior on others.

We’ve had the same discussion in the mesmer forums, I even wrote out the average dps on boss from raidar for median runs which show power and condi were almost equal on most bosses with a few exceptions like KC and Sam for power, Cairn and Matthias for condi. If you take the 90th percentile it didn’t exactly change much either except weaver pulls ahead on more fights especially on cleave. 99th percentile is where things do indeed show as in the list above.

I have yet to see anyone prove the trend that condition builds were significantly behind power builds before this patch.

This. We have data. Its there. Anyone can go and look at the data from last patch at

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/5

and see for themselves. Condi was not "behind" power in raids on the average, and not even in the top 10% of runs. You have to go to the top 1% of the upload records to start to see a preference for power, and those groups follow a very different tactic and skip most raid mechanics.

For t4 fractals, just wait until reset and see what people advertise. There is plenty of "condi only" groups. I generally find that the groups that want to do all of cm 100/99 + t4 + rec tend to be power balance because they have a chrono, 25might druid, and condi ps with banners, which mean that the parasitic trait of necro is not very useful. Banners still favor power by a bit.

If you actually go through all the bosses individually, you'll notice that power (especially weaver) is ahead on most with Holo and DH slightly behind. The condi build that sort of can compete is Daredevil, now tell me, how many Daredevil do you see on average in raids?

If looking only at fractals on Arkk CM Weaver pulls ahead by a lot and DH and Holo are on par with their condi counterparts. Same goes for Artsariiv CM.

We do have values I agree, and they clearly show that condi is in no way superior to power on most bosses.

Are you talking about data since the patch because the data before the patch didn’t show this trend at all till the 99th percentile which I might add most people here won’t actually be in no matter how good we think we are. Except that weaver pulled ahead on cleave and had higher on boss dps on a few bosses but it was only 1 or 2 where it was significant.

Bear in mind I don’t consider a 1-2k difference that significant unless it’s an absolute like all power builds are 1-2k ahead of all condition builds which wasn’t shown in the data for median or 90th percentile.

[Chris McSwag.4683]

@Belorn.2659 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@Chris McSwag.4683 said:

@musu.9205 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

condi was behind if you consider all raid boss + fractal . the belief that condi was op before patch in pve was simply not true (decent maybe ).

In many cases, a mix of condi/power is preferred in raids. The amount of bosses that strictly benefit from power or condi arent vastly different, at least not pre-patch

if the many cases you meant vg only maybe

Sigh :)In many cases you can take a condi or power class in order to buff others, or for other reasons. You probably won’t see this in pugs, but in speedruns it happens quite a bit.

Pre patch:VG: power preferred, can take a condi for red but cdruid, cwar and a holo will do fine.Gorse: power is generally better, but renegades help with faster splits.Sabetha: most fast kills use condi, but power holo is good as wellSloth: powerTrio: who caresMatthias: condi, holo works fine too as buffer and dpsEscort: power up, down doesn’t matterKc: powerXera: power/condi. Weaver + renegade combo is great.Cairn: condi + holoMO: condi+holoSamarog: powerDeimos: powerDesmina: condiSoul River: powerStatues: powerDhuum: mix

i know about those buffs . but that's hardly to do with dmg type . its really just condi buff is on engi and power buff is on rev .and anet gave those buff when they were trying to buff condi engi and power herald .i won't call that as mixed of condi and power is preferred .

And you ignored the boss-by-boss list which made the actual point. It depends on the specifics of the fight. Power is preferable on some, condi is superior on others.

We’ve had the same discussion in the mesmer forums, I even wrote out the average dps on boss from raidar for median runs which show power and condi were almost equal on most bosses with a few exceptions like KC and Sam for power, Cairn and Matthias for condi. If you take the 90th percentile it didn’t exactly change much either except weaver pulls ahead on more fights especially on cleave. 99th percentile is where things do indeed show as in the list above.

I have yet to see anyone prove the trend that condition builds were significantly behind power builds before this patch.

This. We have data. Its there. Anyone can go and look at the data from last patch at

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/5

and see for themselves. Condi was not "behind" power in raids on the average, and not even in the top 10% of runs. You have to go to the top 1% of the upload records to start to see a preference for power, and those groups follow a very different tactic and skip most raid mechanics.

For t4 fractals, just wait until reset and see what people advertise. There is plenty of "condi only" groups. I generally find that the groups that want to do all of cm 100/99 + t4 + rec tend to be power balance because they have a chrono, 25might druid, and condi ps with banners, which mean that the parasitic trait of necro is not very useful. Banners still favor power by a bit.

I think this connects quite well with what i have mentioned earlier. For alot of groups, condi will be beneficial as it is generally is much easier to do decent damage on for the average player. Its however important to note that this data, while great in many ways, does not prove much in terms of "what works best for each boss", but rather shows that power and condi are somewhat equal given the capabilities of the average player in an average setting with an average strategy.Discussion about "whats best" often focus, with some exceptions, on a close to ideal meta-setting, while in reality there are very very few players actually playing at that level.

Just for fun, I had a look at Slothasor after the Nov 7th Patch: https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/4/area-16123Even at the 99th Percentile, condi & power are somewhat close(and this is at a boss that had low toughness) meaning either that phases are long enough for condi to ramp up, that power is harder to play(or low scholar) or a combination of both. Even still, the 99th percentile is quite far from what is possible at sloth.https://dps.report/vxri-20171123-232923_sloth is a log from a Sloth we did late november where team boss DPS is 50k above the 99th percentile. Looking at individual dps, weavers are quite a bit higher, DHs on par(signet share and eating shrooms, so explanatory) and condi a bit lower as the phases are very short and you dont get full use of them.

So where am i going with this? I guess the point is that 'whats optimal' strictly depends on the setting you play in, which is kind of obvious and for the average player, there is barely any need to discuss power vs condi in most places.

[Belorn.2659]

Lets bring in the values then. Average dps on raid and t4 cm encounters for the time between 28nov -> 12 dec. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers. I define those as balanced.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG 13307 10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643 13771kc 25314 13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508 20459mo 22662 24576sam 11583 9344deim 14226 11650soul 17938 19670dhuum 11005 9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1 14510 10740boss 2 21591 13968boss 3 22638 17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

[Cyninja.2954]

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then. Average dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG 13307 10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643 13771kc 25314 13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508 20459mo 22662 24576sam 11583 9344deim 14226 11650soul 17938 19670dhuum 11005 9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1 14510 10740boss 2 21591 13968boss 3 22638 17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction compared to the amount of weavers available.

[Feanor.2358]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then.

Average

dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG

13307

10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643

13771

kc

25314

13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508

20459

mo 22662

24576

sam

11583

9344deim

14226

11650soul 17938

19670

dhuum

11005

9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1

14510

10740boss 2

21591

13968boss 3

22638

17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction of the amount of weavers available.

Everyone wants to be qT, right?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then.

Average

dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG

13307

10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643

13771

kc

25314

13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508

20459

mo 22662

24576

sam

11583

9344deim

14226

11650soul 17938

19670

dhuum

11005

9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1

14510

10740boss 2

21591

13968boss 3

22638

17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction of the amount of weavers available.

Everyone wants to be qT, right?

Who knows, that's an issue all to its self. What I'm getting at is:

Top power builds were over represented in most content which everyone PUGing or even in medium performance statics would have noticed. Condi droped off slowly ever since the food/utility nerf and changes post PoF release.

EDIT: and that's for raids only, fractal CM it's been power as mentioned, no contest. Only reason cPS is run condi is because the power alternative is utter trash.

[apharma.3741]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then.

Average

dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG

13307

10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643

13771

kc

25314

13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508

20459

mo 22662

24576

sam

11583

9344deim

14226

11650soul 17938

19670

dhuum

11005

9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1

14510

10740boss 2

21591

13968boss 3

22638

17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction compared to the amount of weavers available.

It might also be because there’s only 3 benchmarked power builds vs the 6 or 7 condition builds so of course there’s going to be some discrepancy in their representation as there’s many more builds to make up the pool of condition builds. However the table does show the trend with condition builds in general vs power builds in general and from it we can conclude that condition builds were never strictly inferior to power builds outside of the 99th percentile.

There’s also subtle nuances with the power builds too, weaver has higher potential but is very dependent on allies while holosmith has a much more consistant performance across all of raiding. I do agree fractals have usually favoured power over condition but that’s at least not true of observatory CM which is nice to see.

[Belorn.2659]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then.

Average

dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG

13307

10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643

13771

kc

25314

13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508

20459

mo 22662

24576

sam

11583

9344deim

14226

11650soul 17938

19670

dhuum

11005

9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1

14510

10740boss 2

21591

13968boss 3

22638

17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction compared to the amount of weavers available.

I can list each highest DPS class for the encounters which condi is highest for, and their associated popularity. I do not count warrior when looking at popularity.matt 10643 13771Mirage. Popularity 1.22. Almost 300% more popular than second most popular DPS.cairn 14508 20459Mirage. Popularity 0.70. Second most popular DPS class. Most popular was soulbeast (condi) at 0.83.mo 22662 24576Daredevil. popularity 0.22. Here the top dps is unpopular, where the most popular is again soulbeast (condi) with 21058 average dps and a popularity of 0.88.soul 17938 19670Mirage. Popularity 0.56. Third most popular DPS class. Most popular was scourge (condi) at 1.24.

Conclusion: Condi soulbeast is very popular for bosses which favor condi. Very popular. I am actually quite surprised to how popular it is. Second most popular is mirrage which in 3 of the 4 bosses was highest DPS.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then.

Average

dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG

13307

10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643

13771

kc

25314

13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508

20459

mo 22662

24576

sam

11583

9344deim

14226

11650soul 17938

19670

dhuum

11005

9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1

14510

10740boss 2

21591

13968boss 3

22638

17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction compared to the amount of weavers available.

I can list each highest DPS class for the encounters which condi is highest for, and their associated popularity.matt 10643

13771

Mirage. Popularity 1.22. Almost 300% more popular than second most popular DPS.cairn 14508

20459

Mirage. Popularity 0.70. Second most popular DPS class. Most popular was soulbeast (condi) at 0.83.mo 22662

24576

Daredevil. popularity 0.22. Here the top dps is unpopular, where the most popular is again soulbeast (condi) with 21058 average dps.soul 17938

19670

Mirage. Popularity 0.56. Second most popular DPS class. Most popular was soulbeast (condi) at 0.84.

Conclusion: Condi soulbeast is very popular for bosses which favor condi. Very popular. I am actually quite surprised to how popular it is. Second most popular is mirrage which in 3 of the 4 bosses was highest DPS.

Mirage leads on fights with a lot of movement, phantasm mirage in this case. This has more to do with the fights mechanics and less with the balance between power and condi.

Power mesmer was leading damage on those fights as well even though its overall damage was midfield.

[apharma.3741]

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then.

Average

dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG

13307

10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643

13771

kc

25314

13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508

20459

mo 22662

24576

sam

11583

9344deim

14226

11650soul 17938

19670

dhuum

11005

9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1

14510

10740boss 2

21591

13968boss 3

22638

17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction compared to the amount of weavers available.

I can list each highest DPS class for the encounters which condi is highest for, and their associated popularity.matt 10643

13771

Mirage. Popularity 1.22. Almost 300% more popular than second most popular DPS.cairn 14508

20459

Mirage. Popularity 0.70. Second most popular DPS class, second after soulbeast (condi).mo 22662

24576

Daredevil. popularity 0.22. Here the top dps is unpopular, where the most popular is again soulbeast (condi) with 21058 average dps.soul 17938

19670

Mirage. Popularity 0.56. Second most popular DPS class, second after soulbeast (condi).

Conclusion: Condi soulbeast is very popular for bosses which favor condi. Very popular. I am actually quite surprised to how popular it is. Second most popular is mirrage which in 3 of the 4 bosses was highest DPS.

Condi soulbeast had a fairly simple rotation to use that offered very competitive damage with a fairly quick ramp up time that can also be used at range when needed without losing too much damage and few to any long cast times. Condi mirage is fairly simple for decent damage, the cleave isn’t great and has a bit of a ramp up time but if you want a solid dps option it has always been a great pick in average or below groups as it’s less affected by quickness and alacrity. Anyone else find it ironic that the 2 things Chrono does best affect mesmer the least for its dps?

[Belorn.2659]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then.

Average

dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG

13307

10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643

13771

kc

25314

13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508

20459

mo 22662

24576

sam

11583

9344deim

14226

11650soul 17938

19670

dhuum

11005

9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1

14510

10740boss 2

21591

13968boss 3

22638

17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction compared to the amount of weavers available.

I can list each highest DPS class for the encounters which condi is highest for, and their associated popularity.matt 10643

13771

Mirage. Popularity 1.22. Almost 300% more popular than second most popular DPS.cairn 14508

20459

Mirage. Popularity 0.70. Second most popular DPS class. Most popular was soulbeast (condi) at 0.83.mo 22662

24576

Daredevil. popularity 0.22. Here the top dps is unpopular, where the most popular is again soulbeast (condi) with 21058 average dps.soul 17938

19670

Mirage. Popularity 0.56. Second most popular DPS class. Most popular was soulbeast (condi) at 0.84.

Conclusion: Condi soulbeast is very popular for bosses which favor condi. Very popular. I am actually quite surprised to how popular it is. Second most popular is mirrage which in 3 of the 4 bosses was highest DPS.

Mirage leads on fights with a lot of movement, phantasm mirage in this case. This has more to do with the fights mechanics and less with the balance between power and condi.

Power mesmer was leading damage on those fights as well even though its overall damage was midfield.

The boss mechanic is naturally the deciding factor. In general sense, if the boss is huge, stands still and is stunned then bring a power weaver. If it moves around all the time, bring a condi mirrage.

Do this mean we can bring a conclusion to this discussion by deciding if raiding favors bosses which has a lot of movement, or raiding favor bosses which stand still with large hit boxes? It seems we have moved quite far away then from the initial question regarding if condi or power is favored in raiding.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Belorn.2659 said:The boss mechanic is naturally the deciding factor. In general sense, if the boss is huge, stands still and is stunned then bring a power weaver. If it moves around all the time, bring a condi mirrage.

Do this mean we can bring a conclusion to this discussion by deciding if raiding favors bosses which has a lot of movement, or raiding favor bosses which stand still with large hit boxes?

The point is, the most superior boss fights where condi leads are gimmick fights where Mirage as only class with pet damage excells. Chances are slim that a majority of future fights will follow the same pattern.

Soulbeast as mentioned has very competative dps with fast ramp up and easy rotation. Considering the move to make condis less bursty, this won't stay.

Overall condi was not in the dominating spot any more which most people believed. On the contrary, power has reclaimed its spots and that on multiple builds and classes and not on only gimmick boss fights.

[Belorn.2659]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:Lets bring in the values then.

Average

dps on raid and t4 cm encounters. I have bolden those that have over 1k preference to one side, as anything below that line is just variance of two comparable numbers.

Raid

boss Power CondiVG

13307

10638gor 14995 14919sab 15074 14268sloth 12157 11643matt 10643

13771

kc

25314

13282xera 10921 11223cairn 14508

20459

mo 22662

24576

sam

11583

9344deim

14226

11650soul 17938

19670

dhuum

11005

9693

Fractals:

99cmboss1

14510

10740boss 2

21591

13968boss 3

22638

17621

100cmboss1 8554 8603boss 2 9197 9110boss 3 13628 14495

Conclusion: Raid was pretty balanced between condi and power, as was 100cm. 99cm strongly favor power.(Would be nice if this forum supported some form of tables)

and now do a check on class popularity for all encounters where condi is ahead. Notice something? The top condi builds represented are almost not run at all. They are pushing numbers that's all. Especially condi Daredevil which is run not even a fraction compared to the amount of weavers available.

I can list each highest DPS class for the encounters which condi is highest for, and their associated popularity.matt 10643

13771

Mirage. Popularity 1.22. Almost 300% more popular than second most popular DPS.cairn 14508

20459

Mirage. Popularity 0.70. Second most popular DPS class, second after soulbeast (condi).mo 22662

24576

Daredevil. popularity 0.22. Here the top dps is unpopular, where the most popular is again soulbeast (condi) with 21058 average dps.soul 17938

19670

Mirage. Popularity 0.56. Second most popular DPS class, second after soulbeast (condi).

Conclusion: Condi soulbeast is very popular for bosses which favor condi. Very popular. I am actually quite surprised to how popular it is. Second most popular is mirrage which in 3 of the 4 bosses was highest DPS.

Condi soulbeast had a fairly simple rotation to use that offered very competitive damage with a fairly quick ramp up time that can also be used at range when needed without losing too much damage and few to any long cast times. Condi mirage is fairly simple for decent damage, the cleave isn’t great and has a bit of a ramp up time but if you want a solid dps option it has always been a great pick in average or below groups as it’s less affected by quickness and alacrity. Anyone else find it ironic that the 2 things Chrono does best affect mesmer the least for its dps?

I think you are right. Personally I find mirrage to be a nice break in the more complex rotation from power classes, and my currest best advice to new raiders in regard to what class to pick. I will note that I incorrectly had soulbest as highest popularity in soulless. That prize goes to scourge for very obvious reasons given the mechanic of that fight.

[Belorn.2659]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:The boss mechanic is naturally the deciding factor. In general sense, if the boss is huge, stands still and is stunned then bring a power weaver. If it moves around all the time, bring a condi mirrage.

Do this mean we can bring a conclusion to this discussion by deciding if raiding favors bosses which has a lot of movement, or raiding favor bosses which stand still with large hit boxes?

The point is, the most superior boss fights where condi leads are gimmick fights where Mirage as only class with pet damage excells. Chances are slim that a majority of future fights will follow the same pattern.

Soulbeast as mentioned has very competative dps with fast ramp up and easy rotation. Considering the move to make condis less bursty, this won't stay.

Overall condi was not in the dominating spot any more which most people believed. On the contrary, power has reclaimed its spots and that on multiple builds and classes and not on only gimmick boss fights.

In the wing released just a few weeks ago, half of it favor condi. You might call boss fights that favor condi to be gimmicks, but I don't see it. Cairn is no more gimmicky than KC, and matt is an excellent designed boss. Soulless is a refreshing design to bring necro to their A game with a fairly high skill ceiling. Mo is sadly comparable to escort, with the exception to CM which raidar don't have enough data to clearly point in one or other direction.

We will have to see what a increased ramp up time will do. It will effect bosses that has phasaes that reset condis such as sloth and sam, but out of those only sloth might actually see a difference. The condi favored boss won't suddenly become power favored, or wise verse, so I doubt the optimal strategy for top dps or pugs will change much after this patch. Time will tell. Thankfully we have sites like raidar that publish the data.

[apharma.3741]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Belorn.2659 said:The boss mechanic is naturally the deciding factor. In general sense, if the boss is huge, stands still and is stunned then bring a power weaver. If it moves around all the time, bring a condi mirrage.

Do this mean we can bring a conclusion to this discussion by deciding if raiding favors bosses which has a lot of movement, or raiding favor bosses which stand still with large hit boxes?

The point is, the most superior boss fights where condi leads are gimmick fights where Mirage as only class with pet damage excells. Chances are slim that a majority of future fights will follow the same pattern.

Soulbeast as mentioned has very competative dps with fast ramp up and easy rotation. Considering the move to make condis less bursty, this won't stay.

Overall condi was not in the dominating spot any more which most people believed. On the contrary, power has reclaimed its spots and that on multiple builds and classes and not on only gimmick boss fights.

Actually soulbeast only received one change that affected its build, throw torch which you didn’t QuickDraw as bonfire did more damage. Bonfire wasn’t touched nor was the conditions from stances or traits, condition soulbeast was barely changed at all. Condi mirage was buffed as well across all builds and so is back in a competitive place. Likewise very few skills on condi thief or condi engineer were affected too much in the PvE builds currently in use.

The classes that have seen a big change are condi rev, scourge and condi ele. Scourge has seen the biggest impact while rev and ele have longer ramp up times but I don’t know anyone that chooses to run condi ele as any fight with mechanics or a boss that makes power ele poor is likewise poor for condi ele for the same reasons usually

This patch changed a few condition builds for some classes but the top 2, soulbeast and mirage were barely touched, same with condi DD. I haven’t played condi rev so I can’t comment on it but I’d expect the ramp up time has gone up a fair bit as it’s seen the most stack intensity to duration increase on its build than any other. Oh and condi warrior was massively nerfed while power war was buffed.

[Jabu Jabu.3971]

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

I'm sorry but condi has always been behind power with the exception of few bosses maybe. Now I think condi is way behind power. Consider it also from fractls point of view, all condi classes became useless. I can understand making condi less bursty in a pvp/Wvw environment which makes sense, but in pve it was just silly decision imo. Before this patch i was really open to all classes/builds as dps in fractals, and now honestly it's not worth at all to play a condi class. too many short fights, invuln phases. RIP condis. Maybe only hybrid condi weav can be still viable but havent tried yet. Anyway i may be wrong but this is my opinion at the moment. And the same applies to raid bosses. If before patch condi classes were more or less on the same level of power, now there is a huge gap. and why? honestly no clue.. leaving power weaver on 50k, and condis on 30k .. i dont really understand.

[Feanor.2358]

@Mamma il Dio.2074 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

I'm sorry but condi has always been behind power with the exception of few bosses maybe. Now I think condi is way behind power. Consider it also from fractls point of view, all condi classes became useless. I can understand making condi less bursty in a pvp/Wvw environment which makes sense, but in pve it was just silly decision imo. Before this patch i was really open to all classes/builds as dps in fractals, and now honestly it's not worth at all to play a condi class. too many short fights, invuln phases. RIP condis. Maybe only hybrid condi weav can be still viable but havent tried yet. Anyway i may be wrong but this is my opinion at the moment. And the same applies to raid bosses. If before patch condi classes were more or less on the same level of power, now there is a huge gap. and why? honestly no clue.. leaving power weaver on 50k, and condis on 30k .. i dont really understand.

For high-end fractal play - yes. Condi was behind (except on cm 100) and now can only fall further behind. For raids - no, condi was pretty balanced (except in 99th percentile which is irrelevant). And now it won't change that much. Clone Mirage actually got buffed, Soulbeast is more or less unchanged, Firebrand and Daredevil seem to be fairly strong according to SC. Renegade and Engi seem to be taking the big hits, possibly pushing Renegade into support and Engi toward power Holosmith.

[apharma.3741]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Mamma il Dio.2074 said:

@"Turkadactyl.5308" said:"Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

I'm sorry but condi has always been behind power with the exception of few bosses maybe. Now I think condi is way behind power. Consider it also from fractls point of view, all condi classes became useless. I can understand making condi less bursty in a pvp/Wvw environment which makes sense, but in pve it was just silly decision imo. Before this patch i was really open to all classes/builds as dps in fractals, and now honestly it's not worth at all to play a condi class. too many short fights, invuln phases. RIP condis. Maybe only hybrid condi weav can be still viable but havent tried yet. Anyway i may be wrong but this is my opinion at the moment. And the same applies to raid bosses. If before patch condi classes were more or less on the same level of power, now there is a huge gap. and why? honestly no clue.. leaving power weaver on 50k, and condis on 30k .. i dont really understand.

For high-end fractal play - yes. Condi was behind (except on cm 100) and now can only fall further behind. For raids - no, condi was pretty balanced (except in 99th percentile which is irrelevant). And now it won't change that much. Clone Mirage actually got buffed, Soulbeast is more or less unchanged, Firebrand and Daredevil seem to be fairly strong according to

SC

. Renegade and Engi seem to be taking the big hits, possibly pushing Renegade into support and Engi toward power Holosmith.

Whoa hold your horses there. You mean you actually looked at the patch notes, now at the skills affected, at the meta builds and back to the skills affected and realised not much changed for all but engy and rev?

Don’t you know common sense isn’t allowed in the forums let alone deductive reasoning.