Condi Scourge vs. condi Reaper?

According to Snow Crows benchmarks condi reaper and condi scourge can deal almost the same dps (29k) (here are the builds https://snowcrows.com/raids/necromancer/ ). I'm usually doing fractals on my Scourge and I have never played condi Reaper (only power). Is there anyone who has played condi Reaper in fractals and could share their experience? Is the damage high enough?I assume it's a but harder to play, because Scourge doesn't have to be close to the boss in order to deal decent dps, and Reaper does, but I'm not sure about that.

I've done condi reaper, and its not that high.I'm usually moving around and even when i can on tier 3.I don't worry about dps on condi reaper, and worry about surviving and keeping my team alive.If i can do that, then we win.

I seriously doubt i can deal as much condi dps anyways as scourge, since you got those aoes and with gs you got to get close.

I can help out (my credentials being I helped to write the Necromancer section on the SC site, and also consistently play Condi Reaper in fractals, both T4s and CM modes).

Aside from the difference in difficulty you correctly identified, the differences between the two builds are as follows:

Condi Reaper:

• Provides Superior CC
• Has higher "burst" for its condition damage provided you know how to "Shroud Dance" (correctly attune to ice fields with your shroud combo)
• Can afford to take alternate traitlines with a smaller hit to DPS than Scourge (running Spite instead of Soul Reaping if group might/vulnerabiliy generation is low, running traits like Parasitic Contagion for more sustain for 10% dps hit compared to the 15% for Scourge)
• Has an alternate pool of "offensive support" compared to Scourge: A pull with Grasping Darkness, the AoE blind with Nightfall, etc.
• Has to be in melee to deal the majority of its damage

Condi Scourge:

• Easier "rotation"
• Can inflict the vast majority of its damage from range
• Has more defensive support than Reaper: Barriers, revival skills, might generation, etc.
• Suffers from a difficulty to maintain shades without Alacrity

A good mindset is not to view Condi Reaper/Scourge as two builds you have to choose between, but as two different ways you can utilize your skillset due to how similar their builds/damage outputs are. In the instance of fractals you could for instance use Condi Reaper for Viraastra in the Shattered Observatory fractal for the extra CC, then swap back to Scourge to help deal with the Adds at Arkk. You can use Scourge to help mitigate the large numbers of Adds in the Underground fractal, then swap to Reaper for the boss at the end to utilize the higher burst for when the boss is broken/lava'd as well as have a handy pull to cancel its heal if it isn't moved fast enough.

As for playing Condi Reaper in general, it is most definitely playable in fractals; even if you have a team of Tempests and Chronomancers dropping enormous combo fields. Provided you practice a bit and understand how the game decides which combo fields you're using you can "hit" your ice field from Executioner's Scythe with an "accuracy" rating of 90%+.

@"Amerikajinn.4635" said:As for playing Condi Reaper in general, it is most definitely playable in fractals; even if you have a team of Tempests and Chronomancers dropping enormous combo fields. Provided you practice a bit and understand how the game decides which combo fields you're using you can "hit" your ice field from Executioner's Scythe with an "accuracy" rating of 90%+.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason for the game not prioritising one's own fields?

@ovinnik.9216 said:

@"Amerikajinn.4635" said:As for playing Condi Reaper in general, it is most definitely playable in fractals; even if you have a team of Tempests and Chronomancers dropping enormous combo fields. Provided you practice a bit and understand how the game decides which combo fields you're using you can "hit" your ice field from Executioner's Scythe with an "accuracy" rating of 90%+.

You'd probably need to ask a Dev that. From what I can tell I'd guess it'd be to keep the "rules" behind combo field prioritization more uniform, basically so you don't have only one person able to use a fire field should a large one (like Timewarp) have been slapped down on top of the group first.

@"Amerikajinn.4635" said:I can help out (my credentials being I helped to write the Necromancer section on the SC site, and also consistently play Condi Reaper in fractals, both T4s and CM modes).

Aside from the difference in difficulty you correctly identified, the differences between the two builds are as follows:

Condi Reaper:

• Provides Superior CC
• Has higher "burst" for its condition damage provided you know how to "Shroud Dance" (correctly attune to ice fields with your shroud combo)
• Can afford to take alternate traitlines with a smaller hit to DPS than Scourge (running Spite instead of Soul Reaping if group might/vulnerabiliy generation is low, running traits like Parasitic Contagion for more sustain for 10% dps hit compared to the 15% for Scourge)
• Has an alternate pool of "offensive support" compared to Scourge: A pull with Grasping Darkness, the AoE blind with Nightfall, etc.
• Has to be in melee to deal the majority of its damage

Condi Scourge:

• Easier "rotation"
• Can inflict the vast majority of its damage from range
• Has more defensive support than Reaper: Barriers, revival skills, might generation, etc.
• Suffers from a difficulty to maintain shades without Alacrity

A good mindset is not to view Condi Reaper/Scourge as two builds you have to choose between, but as two different ways you can utilize your skillset due to how similar their builds/damage outputs are. In the instance of fractals you could for instance use Condi Reaper for Viraastra in the Shattered Observatory fractal for the extra CC, then swap back to Scourge to help deal with the Adds at Arkk. You can use Scourge to help mitigate the large numbers of Adds in the Underground fractal, then swap to Reaper for the boss at the end to utilize the higher burst for when the boss is broken/lava'd as well as have a handy pull to cancel its heal if it isn't moved fast enough.

As for playing Condi Reaper in general, it is most definitely playable in fractals; even if you have a team of Tempests and Chronomancers dropping enormous combo fields. Provided you practice a bit and understand how the game decides which combo fields you're using you can "hit" your ice field from Executioner's Scythe with an "accuracy" rating of 90%+.

I thought scourge could put out more condis at range? or has that changed?

Also:Fighting thourmanova definitely benefits from fighting range.Chaos i think fighting the boss there, i think reaper benefits quite a lot.Chill works like a charm, and plenty of room.Plus:The utility is great for keeping your team alive.I personally really enjoy because its almost like playing tag, cept there is no it, just death.Also:Shouts are really useful in that fight too.Being able to not only snare but strip him of buffs is amazing, and the shroud keeps you alive longer.I tend to be one of the last if i don't make a mistake and end up having to die anyways because i can't rez people because he's chasing me, and rezzing people is difficult when he's chasing you with electric floors, but i digress.

Condi Reaper is trash outside of golem benchmarks imo. The rotation can very easily get utterly destroyed costing you around 10k~ dps through a fight and you have little freedom to deal with mechanics. Having to go out of stack to attune your spins to your ice field is also absolute cancer. Scourge is a lot more dependable and brings a small amount of support. I also noticed you said fractals. I guess it doesn't really matter there, but I already typed this out so yeah.

@"Aktium.9506" said:Condi Reaper is trash outside of golem benchmarks imo. The rotation can very easily get utterly destroyed costing you around 10k~ dps through a fight and you have little freedom to deal with mechanics. Having to go out of stack to attune your spins to your ice field is also absolute cancer. Scourge is a lot more dependable and brings a small amount of support. I also noticed you said fractals. I guess it doesn't really matter there, but I already typed this out so yeah.

The rotation can get "destroyed" if you don't play it correctly, which can be applied to any build, and saying it can very easily is untrue. As for the 10k dps lost throughout a fight that is a gross over exaggeration, as that would still be too high if you missed every ice field let alone just a subset.

Having to go out of stack to attune your spins to your ice field is also absolute cancerWhen you are practiced enough the amount of time you spend outside of the stack to properly attune to your ice field is less than a second, heck even less than half a second. As such the issue is not the rotation preventing you from getting allied buffs but making sure you time your "Shroud Dancing to ensure you do not miss allied buffs.

I also noticed you said fractals. I guess it doesn't really matter there, but I already typed this out so yeah.Not sure why it wouldn't matter. While there would be 50% less combo fields to worry about there the same core differences between the two builds apply.

@"Amerikajinn.4635" said:The rotation can get "destroyed" if you don't play it correctly, which can be applied to any build, and saying it can very easily is untrue. As for the 10k dps lost throughout a fight that is a gross over exaggeration, as that would still be too high if you missed every ice field let alone just a subset.There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

When you are practiced enough the amount of time you spend outside of the stack to properly attune to your ice field is less than a second, heck even less than half a second. As such the issue is not the rotation preventing you from getting allied buffs but making sure you time your "Shroud Dancing to ensure you do not miss allied buffs.Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

Not sure why it wouldn't matter. While there would be 50% less combo fields to worry about there the same core differences between the two builds apply.I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a damn, in which case it does indeed not matter.

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Having to rez someone or doing mechanics also influences all builds, and as for taking damage in shroud that's just another part of the difficulty of the build. I didn't say Reaper was equal in difficulty to Scourge after all. As for "the only way" the mess up Scourge rotation, there is messing up your Shade placement so you don't maintain the ideal amount of shades/charges, there's not properly transferring conditions and there's also canceling your auto chains to cast other stuff.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

Aside from the fact that there's now a major difference in how Alacrity can be applied, since the launch of PoF the amount of large combo fields that can cause issues for you in "meta" builds has gone down (no more fresh air tempests with their Overload Air, it's basically just Time Warps at this point). As for the smaller fields like druid Rejuvenating Tides and Scorched Earth it merely takes a slight alteration to where you move to avoid those. Keep in mind that Scorched Earth is several small combo fields in a line and not one big rectangle, and unless the Druid is following you off the stack of other players that Druid aoe wouldn't be an issue later; neither of these coming anywhere near to making you "stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen".

Even if you were to still come across people using Overload Air you can still get the ice field attunement. Unless your allies are exceedingly new (and you shouldn't measure the merit of a build on a non-ideal scenario like that) they'll most likely be centering their AoEs on the boss/the stack. Overload Air/Timewarp have a radius of 360 units, while the radius of Executioner's Scythe is 240 units. However, because you can more freely place the ice field from Executioner's Scythe you can use the full diamteer of the field when taking into account if you can "Shroud Dance" or not, meaning the diameter we use here is 480 units; giving us a full 120 units of extra space to properly attune to the ice field we want. There is only one combo field in the game that is larger than or equal to 480 units, and that is Regenerating Mist from Engineers (and that only lasts for 1 second).

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

It's pretty clear you don't like the play style of either in the instance of playing fractals, and no-one is saying you have to play either. However, not only was the original question how the two builds differ/compare in practice, it would be preferable if you didn't allow personal dislike of the play style lead to spreading false information.

As for why you would play either in fractals, not only can you deal high levels of damage even in your standard LFG group, both Scourge and Reaper can give up a small portion of their damage to gain enormous amounts of sustain that makes enduring difficult fights much easier, and also enables a far more aggressive playstyle in general, on top of bringing tools that can be used in every fractal encounter (blinks for teleporting past sections and doing switch panels, ways to mitigate projectiles like the one sat Old Tom or the Arkk fight, large amounts of in-built CC or barriers, etc. There's more to a good fractal group than just damage and Necro can do a bit of everything to a good standard.

Besides also some enemies love to put massive aoe effects, giving you no time to actually hit in reaper, draining your life force faster.

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

No. Its not easier to mess up rotation with reaper than with scourge. Cause its always the same boring thing.

With scourge it got more interesting because anet allowed some groupplay. To give barrier for example.If you play reaper, just dont care for your group, because you have zero supporting abilities.If you play scourge and cast that heal too late, u might end up not preventing a huge blow to your group. Even though thats no "rotation"

@Axl.8924 said:Besides also some enemies love to put massive aoe effects, giving you no time to actually hit in reaper, draining your life force faster.

In situations where your life force would drain too fast you can forego the auto attacks and just focus on the Shroud Combo itself. Additionally, if Life Force is still an issue you can afford to use Death Spiral both before and after leaving shroud to help bump up your Life Force total.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

Scourge has the easier "rotation" due to removing the aspect of cooldown management as you can see all of your cooldowns at any given time. As for either one being "the same boring thing", that's a subjective viewpoint, so irrelevant.

If you play reaper, just dont care for your group, because you have zero supporting abilities.Or you wanted to bring more CC, or wanted the other offensive-type support tools that Reaper provides like Epidemic or Grasping Darkness, or wanted to take the build that has more burst damage than Scourge. As I said, because both Reaper and Scourge have near identical build set-ups you can fluidly swap between them as a situation calls for it. Hardly a matter of "If you play reaper, just dont care for your group".

If you play scourge and cast that heal too late, u might end up not preventing a huge blow to your group. Even though thats no "rotation"Without much context I fail to see what you're arguing here. Unless you're specifically utilizing Sand Flare in an encounter to deal with a mechanic (Greens at VG, boosting the Sacrifice at Matthias, etc.) there aren't many situations where you'd need to time the usage of your Sand Flare beyond proccing Sadistic Searing.

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Besides also some enemies love to put massive aoe effects, giving you no time to actually hit in reaper, draining your life force faster.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

If you play reaper, just dont care for your group, because you have zero supporting abilities.Or you wanted to bring more CC, or wanted the other offensive-type support tools that Reaper provides like Epidemic or Grasping Darkness, or wanted to take the build that has more burst damage than Scourge. As I said, because both Reaper and Scourge have near identical build set-ups you can fluidly swap between them as a situation calls for it. Hardly a matter of "If you play reaper, just dont care for your group".

If you play scourge and cast that heal too late, u might end up not preventing a huge blow to your group. Even though thats no "rotation"Without much context I fail to see what you're arguing here. Unless you're specifically utilizing Sand Flare in an encounter to deal with a mechanic (Greens at VG, boosting the Sacrifice at Matthias, etc.) there aren't many situations where you'd need to time the usage of your Sand Flare beyond proccing Sadistic Searing.

Not rlly. If you follow the rotation on reaper, there is no cd management at all.Cause its the same as scourge is. Weaponswap, when weaponswap is off cd.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Besides also some enemies love to put massive aoe effects, giving you no time to actually hit in reaper, draining your life force faster.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

If you play reaper, just dont care for your group, because you have zero supporting abilities.Or you wanted to bring more CC, or wanted the other offensive-type support tools that Reaper provides like Epidemic or Grasping Darkness, or wanted to take the build that has more burst damage than Scourge. As I said, because both Reaper and Scourge have near identical build set-ups you can fluidly swap between them as a situation calls for it. Hardly a matter of "If you play reaper, just dont care for your group".

If you play scourge and cast that heal too late, u might end up not preventing a huge blow to your group. Even though thats no "rotation"Without much context I fail to see what you're arguing here. Unless you're specifically utilizing Sand Flare in an encounter to deal with a mechanic (Greens at VG, boosting the Sacrifice at Matthias, etc.) there aren't many situations where you'd need to time the usage of your Sand Flare beyond proccing Sadistic Searing.

It's really not. You juggle the three different sets of skills you're working with for Reaper: Reaper Shroud, Greatsword and Scepter/Dagger. You can't wait too long before going back into shroud because then you waste the "uptime" of the Shroud 5->4 combo, you also need to make sure you're going into Shroud from Greatsword to ensure you have the extra whirl finishers to use in tandem with Soul Spiral, you want to make sure you're using Shadow Fiend (assuming you're running Epidemic) at a point where you will proc Chilling Darkness due to its internal cooldown.

The point of a rotation is to optimize when you use your abilities to maximize your damage, and if you just use your abilities/weapon swap/go into shroud off cooldown your dps will drop drastically; the reason you use a prioritization system for Scourge instead of a rotation unlike Reaper is because you can not only see every single cooldown you have at the same time, but also because you're not running extra weapons in your offhand (making your Weapon Swap essentially an 11th skill to use).

Once again, no one is saying you have to play Condi Reaper. But don't allow your dislike and clear lack of knowledge regarding the class to cause you to spread false information regarding the build.

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Besides also some enemies love to put massive aoe effects, giving you no time to actually hit in reaper, draining your life force faster.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

If you play reaper, just dont care for your group, because you have zero supporting abilities.Or you wanted to bring more CC, or wanted the other offensive-type support tools that Reaper provides like Epidemic or Grasping Darkness, or wanted to take the build that has more burst damage than Scourge. As I said, because both Reaper and Scourge have near identical build set-ups you can fluidly swap between them as a situation calls for it. Hardly a matter of "If you play reaper, just dont care for your group".

If you play scourge and cast that heal too late, u might end up not preventing a huge blow to your group. Even though thats no "rotation"Without much context I fail to see what you're arguing here. Unless you're specifically utilizing Sand Flare in an encounter to deal with a mechanic (Greens at VG, boosting the Sacrifice at Matthias, etc.) there aren't many situations where you'd need to time the usage of your Sand Flare beyond proccing Sadistic Searing.

On scourge you DO run extra weapons on offhand. Lol.Its scepter+ torch/dagger. So you cant see cooldowns there as well.

Ob reaper its always the same.Shroud 5Shroud 4Gs 2Gs4+5Weaponswap325Autoattack till 3 is almost off cdPlaguelandsBlood is power432WeaponswapShroud 1 until 5 is off cd (i believe it was 6 hits)From beginning

Pretty easy. Now just know, where to fit in shadow fiend and you are good to go.

For scourge the rotation is way longer and more a priorizitation.You need to watch that you have two shades up all the time, be smart while placing them.Know timers of oh-weapons at least a bit.Make use of sadistic searing.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Besides also some enemies love to put massive aoe effects, giving you no time to actually hit in reaper, draining your life force faster.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

If you play reaper, just dont care for your group, because you have zero supporting abilities.Or you wanted to bring more CC, or wanted the other offensive-type support tools that Reaper provides like Epidemic or Grasping Darkness, or wanted to take the build that has more burst damage than Scourge. As I said, because both Reaper and Scourge have near identical build set-ups you can fluidly swap between them as a situation calls for it. Hardly a matter of "If you play reaper, just dont care for your group".

If you play scourge and cast that heal too late, u might end up not preventing a huge blow to your group. Even though thats no "rotation"Without much context I fail to see what you're arguing here. Unless you're specifically utilizing Sand Flare in an encounter to deal with a mechanic (Greens at VG, boosting the Sacrifice at Matthias, etc.) there aren't many situations where you'd need to time the usage of your Sand Flare beyond proccing Sadistic Searing.

The dps/utility gain from running dagger offhand is minor, and the effort to make it work is unnecessary. You also don't need Deathlt Swarm due to the Plague Sending being more reliable and less prone to not tranferring conditions off you in time. While you would need to use a rotation id you did run it, the "meta" for Scourge is Scepter Torch (which negates the requirement for a rotation.

Ob reaper its always the same.

So a rotation of the same skills. Emphasis on rotation, as in circular, repetitious, the same every round. By emphasising that Reaper uses the same skills just emphasiszes that it makes use of a rotation to optimize damage, whereas Scourge's meta build doesn't require this.

Pretty easy. Now just know, where to fit in shadow fiend and you are good to go.

You fit Shadow fiend in the same place every round of the rotation: after using Deathly Swarm and just before Weapon Swapping and going back into Shroud.

For scourge the rotation is way longer and more a priorizitation.

As said, if you're using a prioritization system (finish auto chain -> place shade -> weapon swap -> etc) then you don't need a rotation.

I know from experience, attempting to make an exact rotation for Scourge ends up becoming needlessly long and complicated. However, it becomes simpler to use the prioritization method instead, which is not only easier to remember/utilize thabks to being able to see all of your cooldowns (on the meta version if the build) but it also allows you to be more dynamic with your skills without worrying about disrupting the flow of skills in a rotation.

E.g saving your torch 5 for the CC if its needed soon.

For Shadow Fiend in a DPS rotation, I could have sworn that the timing was whenever the answer to both of the following questions was "no."

1. Is my life force full?
2. Is Haunt cooling down?

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:For Shadow Fiend in a DPS rotation, I could have sworn that the timing was whenever the answer to both of the following questions was "no."

1. Is my life force full?
2. Is Haunt cooling down?

It does vary based on which build you're using, but it culminates down to the following:

Reaper:

1. Am I about to hit my opponent with a blinding skill that is part of combos within my rotation (ie Blood is Power into Deathly Swarm)?
2. Have I hit my opponent with a blind in the last 3 seconds?
3. Is Haunt on Cooldown?

Scourge:

1. Is haunt on cooldown?(Note that if you're running Shadow Fiend you basically want to be using the extra shroud skills when you can [roughly one cast of Nefarious Favor per Haunt] to ensure you aren't wasting the Life Force.

As for when you run Shadow Fiend at all, it's also a case of slight differentiation

Reaper: Use if not using Epidemic

Scourge: Either use of not using Epidemic, or replace Trail of Anguish with Shadow Fiend if you are not able to constantly be in melee range to hit with the burning from Trail of Anguish.

condi reaper I feel has more instant condi pressure than scourge since it can apply 30+ bleed stacks instantly but scourge is better at tanking and condi application

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Besides also some enemies love to put massive aoe effects, giving you no time to actually hit in reaper, draining your life force faster.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

If you play reaper, just dont care for your group, because you have zero supporting abilities.Or you wanted to bring more CC, or wanted the other offensive-type support tools that Reaper provides like Epidemic or Grasping Darkness, or wanted to take the build that has more burst damage than Scourge. As I said, because both Reaper and Scourge have near identical build set-ups you can fluidly swap between them as a situation calls for it. Hardly a matter of "If you play reaper, just dont care for your group".

If you play scourge and cast that heal too late, u might end up not preventing a huge blow to your group. Even though thats no "rotation"Without much context I fail to see what you're arguing here. Unless you're specifically utilizing Sand Flare in an encounter to deal with a mechanic (Greens at VG, boosting the Sacrifice at Matthias, etc.) there aren't many situations where you'd need to time the usage of your Sand Flare beyond proccing Sadistic Searing.

Technically speaking, shouldn't scourge be better vs large groups of enemeis? As reaper, you gotta be right in their faces to deal damage and avoid lots of aoe effects going on and dodge, and that could mess up your rotation, like the poison attack and bloomhunger trying to focus you and jump on you.Technically its still good and viable, but you could range.Range is better vs some obstacles.

@Axl.8924 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Axl.8924 said:Besides also some enemies love to put massive aoe effects, giving you no time to actually hit in reaper, draining your life force faster.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Aktium.9506" said:There's a number of outside influences that can mess with the precarious condi reaper rotation. Anything from having to help ress someone, having to do a mechanic or actually taking damage in shroud and actually running out of lf. Scourge rotation does not have this problem. In fact, the only way to mess up scourge rotation is if you fatfinger garish pillar several times off cd causing you to run out of life force.

Well, I only played the build for every single weekly raid clear after they killed the old jagged horror build up until PoF launch. Dropping shroud 5 pretty often causes you to miss at least a couple of chrono well ticks over a fight. It adds up man. I can also remember a number of times when air overload, time warp, druid pulse heal thing and scorched earth wrecked me. Even when you knew those were about to drop there was nothing you could do except stagger the rotation and scowl at the screen. It was one thing having to deal with that nonsense when there were no other options for necro. But now that we can do the same dps with none of the convoluted shenanigans there's no reason whatsoever for it.

I was alluding more to the fact that both condi reaper and condi scourge feel pretty bad in fractals ever since they increased ramp up times on condis. If you're playing either it's likely because you don't have anything else with ar slotted or don't give a kitten, in which case it does indeed not matter.

If you play reaper, just dont care for your group, because you have zero supporting abilities.Or you wanted to bring more CC, or wanted the other offensive-type support tools that Reaper provides like Epidemic or Grasping Darkness, or wanted to take the build that has more burst damage than Scourge. As I said, because both Reaper and Scourge have near identical build set-ups you can fluidly swap between them as a situation calls for it. Hardly a matter of "If you play reaper, just dont care for your group".

If you play scourge and cast that heal too late, u might end up not preventing a huge blow to your group. Even though thats no "rotation"Without much context I fail to see what you're arguing here. Unless you're specifically utilizing Sand Flare in an encounter to deal with a mechanic (Greens at VG, boosting the Sacrifice at Matthias, etc.) there aren't many situations where you'd need to time the usage of your Sand Flare beyond proccing Sadistic Searing.

You're correct in that Scourge has superior Cleave for large groups of enemies, the question of which build you run largely comes down to player preference/ a case-by-case basis. As for a rotation being messed up by attacks that can be applied to any build, and the same countermeasures apply (get aegis from a chrono, slightly delay the rotation, account for upcoming attacks with positioning, etc.).

condi reaper is better than scourge in fractals, because you can use ettin gunk there (which chills) and also take eles ice bow (but who plays condi in fractals anyway lol)

in raids scourge is better especially if adds die, giving you more f2 spam.besides, life force deplete rate is so trash you can have problems doing the rotation in raids on reaper, because of pulsing aoe.

@Sublimatio.6981 said:in raids scourge is better especially if adds die, giving you more f2 spam.besides, life force deplete rate is so trash you can have problems doing the rotation in raids on reaper, because of pulsing aoe.

It's true that Scourge is better in raids in more scenarios (ease of rotation, able to do the vast majority of its damage from range, etc.), but it may still be worth while to run Reaper if your team has issues with CC, or if you're on a fight that benefits from tools Reaper specifically has to offer (like Xera where you might want to pull in any White mantle the spawn off the Bloodstone shard AoEs immediately). It can also comes down to player preference (like in my case).

As for doing to Condi Reaper rotation in raids, unless you're constantly taking damage from direct attacks AND not getting life force from adds there isn't any major issue with completing the shroud portion of the rotation; and if there is a life force issue you can afford to use Death's Spiral before and/or after leaving shroud to top it off a bit.

I think due to the fact that you have to hit every single one of your chill fields without delaying their cast just to get the same numbers that Scourge can do while supporting the group/not worrying about anything puts Reaper substantially behind.