Condi Scourge vs. condi Reaper?

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@"narcx.3570" said:I think due to the fact that you have to hit every single one of your chill fields without delaying their cast just to get the same numbers that Scourge can do while supporting the group/not worrying about anything puts Reaper substantially behind.

Aside from there being specific benefits to Reaper that can place it above Scourge in scenarios where said benefits are needed (better burst, better CC, etc.), as well as the fact that Scourge does have stuff to worry about (shade management/placement, ensuring that the wrong conditions are not transferred via Plague Sending, etc.) we need to compare the two on the same build to get a better idea of exactly what support Scourge brings over Reaper (as well as whether it is needed).

To get a fair comparison here, both would be running full vipers as a damage oriented build, with both running full offensive traits (so no Blood magic for either, no Sand Savant for the Scourge, etc.)

With these criteria met Scourge brings the following support options to the table that Reaper does not have:

• Oppressive Collapse (Torch 5): 20 stacks of might of 8 seconds every 20 seconds for 5 targets (before Alacrity)
• Sand Flare (Heal): 4,839 barrier every 20 seconds for 5 targets (before Alacrity)
• Nefarious Favor (Shroud 2): 1 Condition converted into a boon every 4 seconds to a potential average of 9 targets (before Alacrity, and assuming you have enough Life Force).
• Sand Cascade: 2,428 barrier every 6.5 seconds to a potential average of 9 targets (before Alacrity, and assuming you have enough Life Force).
• Trail of Anguish: Potential of 12 seconds of Swiftness and two 6 second stacks of Stability every 20 seconds (before Alacrity/Concentration)

This all looks like a lot, but we then need to apply it to what your average group might be running in a best case Scenario, as well as exactly how Scourge would be using some of these skills as a primarily dps oriented builds.

• Oppressive Collapse: This still works fine, but due to many groups running other boon sharing professions (Druid/Chrono most notably) you're unlikely to "need" this additional might.
• Sand Flare: One of the better tools that scourge has, but keep in mind that if you're holding on to it to use as a situation requires (unless you're staking Scourges and always have the barrier from it up) you will likely not be proccing Sadistic searing with it and losing a portion of your damage.
• Nefarious Favor: While this used to be a lot better as it previously cleansed two conditions, now it is basically a "Procc Dhuumfire" button that struggles to operate as a supportive tool compared to condi cleanses from other classes you will most likely have in your group
• Sand Cascade: A decent amount of barrier, but one that really doesn't offer much compared to what a dedicated healer can do if you're running damage primarily.
• Trail of Anguish: A minor addition that still fits the "theme" here, but even so other professions in a given scenario provide more than enough Swiftness to make this addition not exactly required in group content.

Now while all of this is taken from a "best case scenario" in terms of team composition to provide might, quickness and Alacrity for both Scourge and Reaper (with Scourge suffering more from a lack of Alacrity than Reaper does due to management of shades being a requirement to hit total condi duration); but should you be in a situation where you don't have an ideal team comp (ie doing free-for-all fractal runs via LFG) then Scourge may offer the supportive tools you need to help out a group.

[Lockheart.4312]

Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@Lockheart.4312 said:Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

And was reborn when Deathly Chill got buffed (eventually) to compensate

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Reaper can do work, but the thing is you have to actually be a skilled player to use it and skilled players are generally attracted to other classes.

It's an open secret that scourge was fully designed to pander to unskilled players.

So this makes good reapers very rare as the majority of them have moved on. Everyone left is either a scrub who is only playing necro because it has the current meta's brainless buttonmasher spec OR someone who doesn't have PoF.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Lockheart.4312 said:Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

And was reborn when Deathly Chill got buffed (eventually) to compensate

Well, if you talk about PvE it's wrong because deathly chill builds in this game mode were subpar at best and if you talk about PvP/WvW, I doubt Lich form and it's jagged horrors had ever any kind of great impact.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Lockheart.4312" said:Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

And was reborn when Deathly Chill got buffed (eventually) to compensate

Well, if you talk about PvE it's wrong because

deathly chill

builds in this game mode were subpar at best and if you talk about PvP/WvW, I doubt Lich form and it's jagged horrors had ever any kind of great impact.

As you didn't mention what exactly was wrong about the claim I'll be more elaborate in my response. After the nerf to Jagged Horrors it was indeed subpar for the 4 month period between the Jagged Horror change (October of 2016) and When Deathly Chill was buffed to 3 stacks per application of chill (February 2017).

At this point the damage was back to being somewhat respectable, with the main problem being able to actually land Soul Spiral in ice fields to get the abundance of Chilling Bolts to get the maximum amount of chill applications; and it was at this stage that beyond "combo finishers use the oldest field" there wasn't a lot of good community knowledge surrounding how combo fields are picked for combo finishers. Thankfully, intial findings I discovered and

(posted to reddit in March of last year ) followed by more focused research that I posted in May: showed how it was entirely possible to do consistently; with the main weakness at this point being missing essential buffs from Chronomancer wells and GoTL proccs from your Druids if you spend too long outside of a group.

Now that we're at a stage where GoTL is just might stacking, a smaller portion of the Alacrity you're getting from Chronomancers is from Wells and more toward SoI casts, and Tempests are being played less (so you don't see the large Overload Air AoEs anymore that were tricky to shroud dance around [though not impossible]), Condi Reaper is the most forgiving/effective to play it has been in quite some time, only being an issue if the support aspects of Scourge are specifically required.

No one is saying Condi Reaper is better or more optimal in all situations than Scourge, but calling is subpar is blatantly untrue.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Lockheart.4312" said:Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

And was reborn when Deathly Chill got buffed (eventually) to compensate

Well, if you talk about PvE it's wrong because

deathly chill

builds in this game mode were subpar at best and if you talk about PvP/WvW, I doubt Lich form and it's jagged horrors had ever any kind of great impact.

As you didn't mention what exactly was wrong about the claim I'll be more elaborate in my response. After the nerf to Jagged Horrors it was indeed subpar for the 4 month period between the Jagged Horror change (October of 2016) and When Deathly Chill was buffed to 3 stacks per application of chill (February 2017).

At this point the damage was back to being somewhat respectable, with the main problem being able to actually land Soul Spiral in ice fields to get the abundance of Chilling Bolts to get the maximum amount of chill applications; and it was at this stage that beyond "combo finishers use the oldest field" there wasn't a lot of good community knowledge surrounding how combo fields are picked for combo finishers. Thankfully, intial findings I discovered and

(

posted to reddit in March of last year

) followed by

more focused research that I posted in May:

showed how it was entirely possible to do consistently; with the main weakness at this point being missing essential buffs from Chronomancer wells and GoTL proccs from your Druids if you spend too long outside of a group.

Now that we're at a stage where GoTL is just might stacking, a smaller portion of the Alacrity you're getting from Chronomancers is from Wells and more toward SoI casts, and Tempests are being played less (so you don't see the large Overload Air AoEs anymore that were tricky to shroud dance around [though not impossible]), Condi Reaper is the most forgiving/effective to play it has been in quite some time, only being an issue if the support aspects of Scourge are specifically required.

No one is saying Condi Reaper is better or more optimal in all situations than Scourge, but calling is subpar is blatantly untrue.

Below 30k dps, is subpar sadly and condi reaper is sadly below 30k dps. I know that it's hard to swallow but outside of epidemic bounce (requiring at least 2 necromancers) the necromancer (whatever it's spec) can't reach 30k dps in both power and condi which make him subpar compared to most other professions in regard of dps.

If most other professions didn't have between 32k and 36k dps builds I'd agree with you and say that it isn't subpar but, sadly it's not the case. The necromancer is only held in PvE thanks to the epidemic gimmick which have been put in the limelight very recently and will, most likely, end up short lived since it effectively reduce raid comp diversity.

So you see that i'm not belittling your researsh, in fact I applaud the work you put behind, however, numbers don't lie and I'm basing my reasoning on numbers alone to say that the condi reaper is a subpar dps. Now you could argue that there is more survivability making it more "user friendly" in harsh environment but, it wouldn't change the fact that it's dps is subpar.

I hope it help you see my point.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Lockheart.4312" said:Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

And was reborn when Deathly Chill got buffed (eventually) to compensate

Well, if you talk about PvE it's wrong because

deathly chill

builds in this game mode were subpar at best and if you talk about PvP/WvW, I doubt Lich form and it's jagged horrors had ever any kind of great impact.

As you didn't mention what exactly was wrong about the claim I'll be more elaborate in my response. After the nerf to Jagged Horrors it was indeed subpar for the 4 month period between the Jagged Horror change (October of 2016) and When Deathly Chill was buffed to 3 stacks per application of chill (February 2017).

At this point the damage was back to being somewhat respectable, with the main problem being able to actually land Soul Spiral in ice fields to get the abundance of Chilling Bolts to get the maximum amount of chill applications; and it was at this stage that beyond "combo finishers use the oldest field" there wasn't a lot of good community knowledge surrounding how combo fields are picked for combo finishers. Thankfully, intial findings I discovered and

(

posted to reddit in March of last year

) followed by

more focused research that I posted in May:

showed how it was entirely possible to do consistently; with the main weakness at this point being missing essential buffs from Chronomancer wells and GoTL proccs from your Druids if you spend too long outside of a group.

Now that we're at a stage where GoTL is just might stacking, a smaller portion of the Alacrity you're getting from Chronomancers is from Wells and more toward SoI casts, and Tempests are being played less (so you don't see the large Overload Air AoEs anymore that were tricky to shroud dance around [though not impossible]), Condi Reaper is the most forgiving/effective to play it has been in quite some time, only being an issue if the support aspects of Scourge are specifically required.

No one is saying Condi Reaper is better or more optimal in all situations than Scourge, but calling is subpar is blatantly untrue.

Below 30k dps, is subpar sadly and condi reaper is sadly below 30k dps. I know that it's hard to swallow but outside of epidemic bounce (requiring at least 2 necromancers) the necromancer (whatever it's spec) can't reach 30k dps in both power and condi which make him subpar compared to most other professions in regard of dps.

If most other professions didn't have between 32k and 36k dps builds I'd agree with you and say that it isn't subpar but, sadly it's not the case. The necromancer is only held in PvE thanks to the

epidemic

gimmick which have been put in the limelight very recently and will, most likely, end up short lived since it effectively reduce raid comp diversity.

So you see that i'm not belittling your researsh, in fact I applaud the work you put behind, however, numbers don't lie and I'm basing my reasoning on numbers alone to say that the condi reaper is a subpar dps. Now you could argue that there is more survivability making it more "user friendly" in harsh environment but, it wouldn't change the fact that it's dps is subpar.

I hope it help you see my point.

I do get your point, but you're also overlooking two things. Firstly while the benchmarks are a good way to evaluate a build for Necro it's a bit misleading due to Epidemic being a thing, so while it does indeed fall below 30k even on its own it more than make up for it with Epidemic. Secondly, the whole point here is to compare Condi Reaper and Condi Scourge as they are currently the best Necro has to work with in terms of raid builds (Power Reaper is ok, but lacks the benefits of Epidemic to boost it up like the condi builds do); and while I may have misinterpreted the tone behind your first comment it gave the implication that Condi Reaper is subpar compared to Scourge which is untrue (and I would still stand by both not being subpar in general as long as it is played by an experienced player).

Also, as has been said if Epidemic was really the reason that Condi builds for Necro don't fare better then Power anything for Necro would be far more potent than it currently is.

[Nimon.7840]

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Lockheart.4312" said:Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

And was reborn when Deathly Chill got buffed (eventually) to compensate

Well, if you talk about PvE it's wrong because

deathly chill

builds in this game mode were subpar at best and if you talk about PvP/WvW, I doubt Lich form and it's jagged horrors had ever any kind of great impact.

As you didn't mention what exactly was wrong about the claim I'll be more elaborate in my response. After the nerf to Jagged Horrors it was indeed subpar for the 4 month period between the Jagged Horror change (October of 2016) and When Deathly Chill was buffed to 3 stacks per application of chill (February 2017).

At this point the damage was back to being somewhat respectable, with the main problem being able to actually land Soul Spiral in ice fields to get the abundance of Chilling Bolts to get the maximum amount of chill applications; and it was at this stage that beyond "combo finishers use the oldest field" there wasn't a lot of good community knowledge surrounding how combo fields are picked for combo finishers. Thankfully, intial findings I discovered and

(

posted to reddit in March of last year

) followed by

more focused research that I posted in May:

showed how it was entirely possible to do consistently; with the main weakness at this point being missing essential buffs from Chronomancer wells and GoTL proccs from your Druids if you spend too long outside of a group.

Now that we're at a stage where GoTL is just might stacking, a smaller portion of the Alacrity you're getting from Chronomancers is from Wells and more toward SoI casts, and Tempests are being played less (so you don't see the large Overload Air AoEs anymore that were tricky to shroud dance around [though not impossible]), Condi Reaper is the most forgiving/effective to play it has been in quite some time, only being an issue if the support aspects of Scourge are specifically required.

No one is saying Condi Reaper is better or more optimal in all situations than Scourge, but calling is subpar is blatantly untrue.

Below 30k dps, is subpar sadly and condi reaper is sadly below 30k dps. I know that it's hard to swallow but outside of epidemic bounce (requiring at least 2 necromancers) the necromancer (whatever it's spec) can't reach 30k dps in both power and condi which make him subpar compared to most other professions in regard of dps.

If most other professions didn't have between 32k and 36k dps builds I'd agree with you and say that it isn't subpar but, sadly it's not the case. The necromancer is only held in PvE thanks to the

epidemic

gimmick which have been put in the limelight very recently and will, most likely, end up short lived since it effectively reduce raid comp diversity.

So you see that i'm not belittling your researsh, in fact I applaud the work you put behind, however, numbers don't lie and I'm basing my reasoning on numbers alone to say that the condi reaper is a subpar dps. Now you could argue that there is more survivability making it more "user friendly" in harsh environment but, it wouldn't change the fact that it's dps is subpar.

I hope it help you see my point.

I do get your point, but you're also overlooking two things. Firstly while the benchmarks are a good way to evaluate a build for Necro it's a bit misleading due to Epidemic being a thing, so while it does indeed fall below 30k even on its own it more than make up for it with Epidemic. Secondly, the whole point here is to compare Condi Reaper and Condi Scourge as they are currently the best Necro has to work with in terms of raid builds (Power Reaper is ok, but lacks the benefits of Epidemic to boost it up like the condi builds do); and while I may have misinterpreted the tone behind your first comment it gave the implication that Condi Reaper is subpar compared to Scourge which is untrue (and I would still stand by both not being subpar in general as long as it is played by an experienced player).

Also, as has been said if Epidemic was really the reason that Condi builds for Necro don't fare better then Power anything for Necro would be far more potent than it currently is.

Reaper IS subpar conpared to scourge:

1.Ok almost same dps.2.Reaper requires ice fields. Well there are tons of dragonhunters out there, that put down light fields.

3. Even if you manage to play around other fields, you may not getting all the buffs from your chrono
4. You have zero group support as a reaper, scourge can at least put up some barrier at critical moments.

The big problem here is Epidemic. And both specs creaper and cscourge use it to cleave adds or to bounce.But most people want to be able to raid with pugs, where coordinating that is difficult, its not worth taking a necro-spec.Better go for the ones, that naturally do more dps, and not for ones, that rely on One skill.

You can see from DnT's speedkills of vg and desmina, that necro definetly is a thing. But you need to find 5 other necros for that.

[Catchyfx.5768]

Any devs Said:Necro have low DPS because epidemic. ?? Everybody use this like a argument. Or have Big healthpool(Warrior),Is good in pvp(Guardian,Warrior,rev)...

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Lockheart.4312" said:Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

And was reborn when Deathly Chill got buffed (eventually) to compensate

Well, if you talk about PvE it's wrong because

deathly chill

builds in this game mode were subpar at best and if you talk about PvP/WvW, I doubt Lich form and it's jagged horrors had ever any kind of great impact.

As you didn't mention what exactly was wrong about the claim I'll be more elaborate in my response. After the nerf to Jagged Horrors it was indeed subpar for the 4 month period between the Jagged Horror change (October of 2016) and When Deathly Chill was buffed to 3 stacks per application of chill (February 2017).

At this point the damage was back to being somewhat respectable, with the main problem being able to actually land Soul Spiral in ice fields to get the abundance of Chilling Bolts to get the maximum amount of chill applications; and it was at this stage that beyond "combo finishers use the oldest field" there wasn't a lot of good community knowledge surrounding how combo fields are picked for combo finishers. Thankfully, intial findings I discovered and

(

posted to reddit in March of last year

) followed by

more focused research that I posted in May:

showed how it was entirely possible to do consistently; with the main weakness at this point being missing essential buffs from Chronomancer wells and GoTL proccs from your Druids if you spend too long outside of a group.

Now that we're at a stage where GoTL is just might stacking, a smaller portion of the Alacrity you're getting from Chronomancers is from Wells and more toward SoI casts, and Tempests are being played less (so you don't see the large Overload Air AoEs anymore that were tricky to shroud dance around [though not impossible]), Condi Reaper is the most forgiving/effective to play it has been in quite some time, only being an issue if the support aspects of Scourge are specifically required.

No one is saying Condi Reaper is better or more optimal in all situations than Scourge, but calling is subpar is blatantly untrue.

Below 30k dps, is subpar sadly and condi reaper is sadly below 30k dps. I know that it's hard to swallow but outside of epidemic bounce (requiring at least 2 necromancers) the necromancer (whatever it's spec) can't reach 30k dps in both power and condi which make him subpar compared to most other professions in regard of dps.

If most other professions didn't have between 32k and 36k dps builds I'd agree with you and say that it isn't subpar but, sadly it's not the case. The necromancer is only held in PvE thanks to the

epidemic

gimmick which have been put in the limelight very recently and will, most likely, end up short lived since it effectively reduce raid comp diversity.

So you see that i'm not belittling your researsh, in fact I applaud the work you put behind, however, numbers don't lie and I'm basing my reasoning on numbers alone to say that the condi reaper is a subpar dps. Now you could argue that there is more survivability making it more "user friendly" in harsh environment but, it wouldn't change the fact that it's dps is subpar.

I hope it help you see my point.

I do get your point, but you're also overlooking two things. Firstly while the benchmarks are a good way to evaluate a build for Necro it's a bit misleading due to Epidemic being a thing, so while it does indeed fall below 30k even on its own it more than make up for it with Epidemic. Secondly, the whole point here is to compare Condi Reaper and Condi Scourge as they are currently the best Necro has to work with in terms of raid builds (Power Reaper is ok, but lacks the benefits of Epidemic to boost it up like the condi builds do); and while I may have misinterpreted the tone behind your first comment it gave the implication that Condi Reaper is subpar compared to Scourge which is untrue (and I would still stand by both not being subpar in general as long as it is played by an experienced player).

Also, as has been said if Epidemic was really the reason that Condi builds for Necro don't fare better then Power anything for Necro would be far more potent than it currently is.

Reaper IS subpar conpared to scourge:

1.Ok almost same dps.

As well as higher burst, context is king here

2.Reaper requires ice fields. Well there are tons of dragonhunters out there, that put down light fields.

None of which are an issue if you know what you're doing as per the linked sources. There is only one combo field in the game that actually stops you: Regenerating Mist. Not only is this field rarely run, but it also only lasts for one second.

3. Even if you manage to play around other fields, you may not getting all the buffs from your chrono

Once again a non-issue if you know what you're doing, the amount of time you need to be outside of any other given field is a fraction of a second; and that time also applies to situations where attuning to the correct field requires moving off the stack. I submit this Mursaat Overseer log from GW2raidar as an example of this

4. You have zero group support as a reaper, scourge can at least put up some barrier at critical moments.

If you're saving your major barrier for critical moments (ie Sand Flare, Sand Cascade is nothing to write home about) you're also losing out on dps from proccs of Sadistic Searing. Scourge does indeed have the better capacity for support, but if you focus on support you lose out in dps unless you have an enormous understanding of what you're doing. This is also putting aside the fact that because both Condi Reaper and Scourge have such similar builds you're free to swap between them as a situation calls for it, you don't just have to pick one of the two.

The big problem here is Epidemic. And both specs creaper and cscourge use it to cleave adds or to bounce.But most people want to be able to raid with pugs, where coordinating that is difficult, its not worth taking a necro-spec.

While this may be true to a degree, it's not impossible to Epi-bounce with Pugs. Any pug group can open up a discord channel to facilitate better communication for Epi-bouncing, and at fights like VG where the secondary targets take ages to die or just don't die at all beyond set "re spawn" times just seeing the black pulse that is a sign that Epidemic has been cast is enough for an experienced player to know it has been cast.

Better go for the ones, that naturally do more dps, and not for ones, that rely on One skill.

Or better yet, better to go for the ones people actually enjoy playing.

You can see from DnT's speedkills of vg and desmina, that necro definetly is a thing. But you need to find 5 other necros for that.

Epi-Bouncing works with a minimum of 2 Necromancers, you don't need 5 other Necromancers to pull it off.

[Nimon.7840]

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Amerikajinn.4635 said:

@"Lockheart.4312" said:Condi reaper died the moment the jagged horror thing got nerfed.

And was reborn when Deathly Chill got buffed (eventually) to compensate

Well, if you talk about PvE it's wrong because

deathly chill

builds in this game mode were subpar at best and if you talk about PvP/WvW, I doubt Lich form and it's jagged horrors had ever any kind of great impact.

As you didn't mention what exactly was wrong about the claim I'll be more elaborate in my response. After the nerf to Jagged Horrors it was indeed subpar for the 4 month period between the Jagged Horror change (October of 2016) and When Deathly Chill was buffed to 3 stacks per application of chill (February 2017).

At this point the damage was back to being somewhat respectable, with the main problem being able to actually land Soul Spiral in ice fields to get the abundance of Chilling Bolts to get the maximum amount of chill applications; and it was at this stage that beyond "combo finishers use the oldest field" there wasn't a lot of good community knowledge surrounding how combo fields are picked for combo finishers. Thankfully, intial findings I discovered and

(

posted to reddit in March of last year

) followed by

more focused research that I posted in May:

showed how it was entirely possible to do consistently; with the main weakness at this point being missing essential buffs from Chronomancer wells and GoTL proccs from your Druids if you spend too long outside of a group.

Now that we're at a stage where GoTL is just might stacking, a smaller portion of the Alacrity you're getting from Chronomancers is from Wells and more toward SoI casts, and Tempests are being played less (so you don't see the large Overload Air AoEs anymore that were tricky to shroud dance around [though not impossible]), Condi Reaper is the most forgiving/effective to play it has been in quite some time, only being an issue if the support aspects of Scourge are specifically required.

No one is saying Condi Reaper is better or more optimal in all situations than Scourge, but calling is subpar is blatantly untrue.

Below 30k dps, is subpar sadly and condi reaper is sadly below 30k dps. I know that it's hard to swallow but outside of epidemic bounce (requiring at least 2 necromancers) the necromancer (whatever it's spec) can't reach 30k dps in both power and condi which make him subpar compared to most other professions in regard of dps.

If most other professions didn't have between 32k and 36k dps builds I'd agree with you and say that it isn't subpar but, sadly it's not the case. The necromancer is only held in PvE thanks to the

epidemic

gimmick which have been put in the limelight very recently and will, most likely, end up short lived since it effectively reduce raid comp diversity.

So you see that i'm not belittling your researsh, in fact I applaud the work you put behind, however, numbers don't lie and I'm basing my reasoning on numbers alone to say that the condi reaper is a subpar dps. Now you could argue that there is more survivability making it more "user friendly" in harsh environment but, it wouldn't change the fact that it's dps is subpar.

I hope it help you see my point.

I do get your point, but you're also overlooking two things. Firstly while the benchmarks are a good way to evaluate a build for Necro it's a bit misleading due to Epidemic being a thing, so while it does indeed fall below 30k even on its own it more than make up for it with Epidemic. Secondly, the whole point here is to compare Condi Reaper and Condi Scourge as they are currently the best Necro has to work with in terms of raid builds (Power Reaper is ok, but lacks the benefits of Epidemic to boost it up like the condi builds do); and while I may have misinterpreted the tone behind your first comment it gave the implication that Condi Reaper is subpar compared to Scourge which is untrue (and I would still stand by both not being subpar in general as long as it is played by an experienced player).

Also, as has been said if Epidemic was really the reason that Condi builds for Necro don't fare better then Power anything for Necro would be far more potent than it currently is.

Reaper IS subpar conpared to scourge:

1.Ok almost same dps.

As well as higher burst, context is king here

Well i dont know. You get more bleedstacks yes. But burning and torment hit way harder so i guess thats amost even.

2.Reaper requires ice fields. Well there are tons of dragonhunters out there, that put down light fields.

None of which are an issue if you know what you're doing as per the linked sources. There is only one combo field in the game that actually stops you:

Regenerating Mist

. Not only is this field rarely run, but it also only lasts for one second.

Err... we run a lot of ele heal in our group...

3. Even if you manage to play around other fields, you may not getting all the buffs from your chrono

Once again a non-issue if you know what you're doing, the amount of time you need to be outside of any other given field is a fraction of a second; and that time also applies to situations where attuning to the correct field requires moving off the stack. I submit

this Mursaat Overseer log from GW2raidar as an example of this

Again wrong. If you manage to whirl inside your icefield, outside of the boss, you have to get very lucky, that all these icy bolts hit the boss. Optimum would be to stand inside of the boss, which isnt possible with other fields overlapping.

And dont take this boss as an example. Thats pretty bad. One of the only bosses, where necro actually is good. (Vg, xera and desmina) these 4 are most likely the ones, where necro can shine. Why? Because of epidemic

4. You have zero group support as a reaper, scourge can at least put up some barrier at critical moments.

If you're saving your major barrier for critical moments (ie Sand Flare, Sand Cascade is nothing to write home about) you're also losing out on dps from proccs of Sadistic Searing. Scourge does indeed have the better capacity for support, but if you focus on support you lose out in dps unless you have an enormous understanding of what you're doing. This is also putting aside the fact that because both Condi Reaper and Scourge have such similar builds you're free to swap between them as a situation calls for it, you don't just have to pick one of the two.

Wrong i guess. In benchmark video he uses the blood fiend. So you dont need it to do optimum dps. You would need the minion. But dropping maybe 0.2k dps for a barrier is fine by me.

The big problem here is Epidemic. And both specs creaper and cscourge use it to cleave adds or to bounce.But most people want to be able to raid with pugs, where coordinating that is difficult, its not worth taking a necro-spec.

While this may be true to a degree, it's not impossible to Epi-bounce with Pugs. Any pug group can open up a discord channel to facilitate better communication for Epi-bouncing, and at fights like VG where the secondary targets take ages to die or just don't die at all beyond set "re spawn" times just seeing the black pulse that is a sign that Epidemic has been cast is enough for an experienced player to know it has been cast.

Better go for the ones, that naturally do more dps, and not for ones, that rely on One skill.

Or better yet, better to go for the ones people actually enjoy playing.

You can see from DnT's speedkills of vg and desmina, that necro definetly is a thing. But you need to find 5 other necros for that.

Epi-Bouncing works with a minimum of 2 Necromancers, you don't need 5 other Necromancers to pull it off.

But else its not worth. You could also take 2 weavers that do more dmg than double necro with epi bounce.

[Subli.8217]

@narcx.3570 said:I think due to the fact that you have to hit every single one of your chill fields without delaying their cast just to get the same numbers that Scourge can do while supporting the group/not worrying about anything puts Reaper substantially behind.

not necessarily true, using suffer on matthias is still better, but as i said, last time i tried to go creaper instead of scourge on matthias, my life force was gone before i was able to finish the shroud sequence, so it's pretty much trash but for that particular reason, not the one you mentioned. using WSAD to enter your chill field is very easy and scourge only gains advantage when mobs die and allow to spam more f2/f3. also scourge has easier rotation (or lack of rotation, it's more like priority skills while creaper has strict rotation)

[Axl.8924]

Snow crows says necros reaper and scourge are nearly 500 dps below the next class, and a few thousand dps below every other spec.

To me this isn't ok, since scourge is listed as condi only and was removed from the benchmark.

How come chrono gets to be above everyone and have their mirage spec at the top too?

Necros should get buffed to be able to be in medial range of 33-34k dps with scourge and reaper.

Less than 33k is ok on a support role that is pure support and healer, but not ok to be so much below, when our support is sub par too.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@"Nimon.7840" said:Well i dont know. You get more bleedstacks yes. But burning and torment hit way harder so i guess thats amost even.Have a look at the following video showing Farbstoff's Reaper and Scourge rotations, and you'll notice that the damage ramps up faster for Reaper than it does for Scourge (it takes about 18 seconds for Scourge's damage to catch up to Reaper's).

https://viewsync.net/watch?v=Y-NDFMLL5is&t=13.52&v=qxh1o482ryA&t=17.93&mode=solo

The variety of damage does not matter when the question is which has the better burst damage.

Err... we run a lot of ele heal in our group...

Quick bit of combo field size math here:

Radius of Regenerating Mist: 480 units (lasts for one second)Radius of Healing Rain (the Heal Ele water field): 450 units (lasts for 6 seconds)

Now Healing Rain would indeed be an issue due to the length of its field exceeding the 4 second ice field from Executioner's Scythe (E.S), as well as having a radius far larger than the 240 units for E.S. The main thing here however is that while you would typically place a field like Healing Rain, Time Warp, Overload Air, etc. centered on the group/boss, you are far more free to position the ice field from Executioner's Scythe. As such, for E.S's ice field we take diameter into account:

Diameter of Executioner's Scythe: 480 units

Now you might be thinking, but what if the other fields are not centered on the group? Well in those cases while it would extend beyond the 480 units that E.S makes use of on one side of a target it would extend far less on the other.

Furthermore, due to the 1.25 second channel time of E.S (before Alacrity) you typically have plenty of time to re position to ensure you can attune to the ice field succesfully without having to delay your rotation/cast of Soul Spiral. Which brings me to the next point:

Again wrong. If you manage to whirl inside your icefield, outside of the boss, you have to get very lucky, that all these icy bolts hit the boss. Optimum would be to stand inside of the boss, which isnt possible with other fields overlapping.

You might want to take another look at the combo field research. Once you have attuned to the ice field any and all combo finishers that originate from your character (in this case the whirl finishers) will use the combo field that you've attuned to until you leave the combo field or it expires. This means you not only can move out, attune to the ice field and then move back in to to ensure all of your chilling bolts hit the boss, but this will work for both Soul Spiral AND 1-2 casts of Gravedigger. So yes, possible with fields overlapping.

And dont take this boss as an example. Thats pretty bad. One of the only bosses, where necro actually is good. (Vg, xera and desmina) these 4 are most likely the ones, where necro can shine. Why? Because of epidemic

Don't shift the goalposts. The issue being discussed here is whether or not you can hit your ice fields with other overlapping fields all while still getting Quickness, Might and Alacrity from your allies. I used MO as an example because of the more chaotic placement of AoEs one might expect from a boss that is constantly moving, as well as there being an extra difficulty factor in having to ensure you can Epidemic precisely when needed.

And for the record Epidemic bouncing is applicable at all but two encounters in raids, so more than 4 bosses where necro is "actually good".

Wrong i guess. In benchmark video he uses the blood fiend. So you dont need it to do optimum dps. You would need the minion. But dropping maybe 0.2k dps for a barrier is fine by me.

My whole point was that if you're taking the barrier for the sake of having the barrier you are already mitigating your "optimal" dps, with the overarching point being that if you want to invest in the support options for Scourge it more often than not means you're sacrificing dps along the way.

But else its not worth. You could also take 2 weavers that do more dmg than double necro with epi bounce.

Fantastic, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. It also has no bearing on a discussion about the differences between Condi Reaper and Condi Scourge. If you're only considering what is most optimal to take then unless there is a major balance shake up why are you even bothering discussing anything about Necro if you could take something else that is more optimal?

[Axl.8924]

Whats sad is amerikajinn, that the numbers are probably inaccurate due to the fact that its on a immobile golem who doesn't attack.Numbers would probably be less due to having to move around a lot and avoid stuff and getting downed a lot and rezzing other folks.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@Axl.8924 said:Whats sad is amerikajinn, that the numbers are probably inaccurate due to the fact that its on a immobile golem who doesn't attack.Numbers would probably be less due to having to move around a lot and avoid stuff and getting downed a lot and rezzing other folks.

So like any other dps class for any other fight? Or is there some special quality of Necro where it's the only dps class that has to rez allies when they go down?

[Axl.8924]

Nah it would be similar to all classes of course.The dps of golems is unrealistic is what i am trying to point out in a vacuum.

[narcx.3570]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:

@narcx.3570 said:I think due to the fact that you have to hit every single one of your chill fields without delaying their cast just to get the same numbers that Scourge can do while supporting the group/not worrying about anything puts Reaper substantially behind.

not necessarily true, using suffer on matthias is still better, but as i said, last time i tried to go creaper instead of scourge on matthias, my life force was gone before i was able to finish the shroud sequence, so it's pretty much trash but for that particular reason, not the one you mentioned. using WSAD to enter your chill field is very easy and scourge only gains advantage when mobs die and allow to spam more f2/f3. also scourge has easier rotation (or lack of rotation, it's more like priority skills while creaper has strict rotation)

There's no epidemic on matthias, so you're free to take Shadow Fiend or Signet of Undeath and have unlimited life-force... That should be true for reaper too.

Also, on Matthias scourge can continue to do more of their realistic damage while doing mechanics (if rng has blessed you), and has more on demand cc to save your friends with f4 since your creaper friend is not likely to burn his rs5 on cc and miss out on all the spins.

Also, also, Matthias is somewhat of a cherry picked example for creaper being able to hit all of their chill fields... Since most people are playing Mirage in this fight you only have to worry about your zerker's fire field and chrono's wells... Which are easy to avoid. Most other bosses however, will also be covered with Lavafonts and DH Symbols. I'm not saying you can't hit your chill fields in every fight, I'm just saying you might have to delay your rotation a bit--and every delay puts you further off of that benchmark. Whereas, like you said, Scourge can just cast things off cd without a care in the world. (maybe just delaying torch 5 on like SH so you don't mess up the pushes or something, but that's whatever.)

[narcx.3570]

@"Amerikajinn.4635" said:Now while all of this is taken from a "best case scenario" in terms of team composition to provide might, quickness and Alacrity for both Scourge and Reaper (with Scourge suffering more from a lack of Alacrity than Reaper does due to management of shades being a requirement to hit total condi duration); but should you be in a situation where you don't have an ideal team comp (ie doing free-for-all fractal runs via LFG) then Scourge may offer the supportive tools you need to help out a group.

I would argue that Reaper suffers more from a lack of Q/A than Scourge does... Combo'ing your GS into your ice field is pretty impossible without quickness--especially the double cast after 50% (unless you have a 0.000 ping.) And I'm not sure what you mean about Scourges relying on Alacrity for shade management either...? You only need to maintain 2 shades for 100% condi duration--they last for 20 seconds and your regenerate a charge every 15 seconds without alacrity--so it's really more an issue of life-force generation than having your summon shade off cooldown... Unless you just meant alacrity in the sense that you generate life-force faster with more skill casts?

[Subli.8217]

@narcx.3570 said:

There's no epidemic on matthias, so you're free to take Shadow Fiend or Signet of Undeath and have unlimited life-force... That should be true for reaper too.no. you have to take bone fiend and suffer and blood is power, or not take creaper. the only reason you would choose creaper over scourge on matthias is suffer.@narcx.3570 said:Also, also, Matthias is somewhat of a cherry picked example for creaper being able to hit all of their chill fields... Since most people are playing Mirage in this fight you only have to worry about your zerker's fire field and chrono's wells... Which are easy to avoid. Most other bosses however, will also be covered with Lavafonts and DH Symbols. I'm not saying you can't hit your chill fields in every fight, I'm just saying you might have to delay your rotation a bit--and every delay puts you further off of that benchmark. Whereas, like you said, Scourge can just cast things off cd without a care in the world. (maybe just delaying torch 5 on like SH so you don't mess up the pushes or something, but that's whatever.)alright here you go, not cherrypicked boss

hitting all chill fields minus one when we had to move. anything more to say? stop with this chill field "TOO HARD" argument already, it's like arguing with vaccine deniers

[narcx.3570]

@Sublimatio.6981 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

There's no epidemic on matthias, so you're free to take Shadow Fiend or Signet of Undeath and have unlimited life-force... That should be true for reaper too.no. you have to take bone fiend and suffer and blood is power, or not take creaper. the only reason you would choose creaper over scourge on matthias is suffer.@narcx.3570 said:Also, also, Matthias is somewhat of a cherry picked example for creaper being able to hit all of their chill fields... Since most people are playing Mirage in this fight you only have to worry about your zerker's fire field and chrono's wells... Which are easy to avoid. Most other bosses however, will also be covered with Lavafonts and DH Symbols. I'm not saying you can't hit your chill fields in every fight, I'm just saying you might have to delay your rotation a bit--and every delay puts you further off of that benchmark. Whereas, like you said, Scourge can just cast things off cd without a care in the world. (maybe just delaying torch 5 on like SH so you don't mess up the pushes or something, but that's whatever.)alright here you go, not cherrypicked boss hitting all chill fields minus one when we had to move. anything more to say? stop with this chill field "TOO HARD" argument already, it's like arguing with vaccine deniers

• Shadow Fiend + being able to use Reaper off cd is more DPS than Bone Fiend + Not having life-force.

• What is that video supposed to prove? There's one tempest causing a field, not 4 weavers. I don't really want to argue about it anyways cuz I don't really care... I don't even think hitting chill fields is that hard. I'm just saying it's a lot of effort just to pull 26k cleave on MO. Also, a ranger and a tempest--how old is this video? Is it even after the deathly chill nerf? Or is it current and you're in some sort of PoF denial guild?

[Subli.8217]

@"narcx.3570" said:Or is it current and you're in some sort of PoF denial guild?or are you incapable of looking at upload date?

• deathly chill wasn't nerfed, it was buffed in december.
• no, shadow fiend and more reaper's shroud isn't better than taking scourge. bone fiend or don't take reaper
• this video is supposed to prove that it's not hard to hit chill fields. especially since weaver fields are small and tempest fields aren't (and ranger, warriors, chronos, druids also spawn aoes). just because in your perception its so tragically difficult doesn't mean it actually is. i'm gonna ignore any more chill field denying because it's tedious to argue with this for years on end. if you have problems with manipulating your whirl combos, im sorry, but it's just you.
• so first you wanted to argue and complained about a cherrypicked boss ("Also, also, Matthias is somewhat of a cherry picked example for creaper being able to hit all of their chill fields... ") and then i respond with a video of other boss and you're still not happy and say "i dont want to argue, i dont care" - does that mean my video changed your mind? because previously you wanted to argue. i'm getting conflicting messages. is it pride? since you went into defense mode and started ridiculing me for the video.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@narcx.3570 said:

@"Amerikajinn.4635" said:Now while all of this is taken from a "best case scenario" in terms of team composition to provide might, quickness and Alacrity for both Scourge and Reaper (with Scourge suffering more from a lack of Alacrity than Reaper does due to management of shades being a requirement to hit total condi duration); but should you be in a situation where you don't have an ideal team comp (ie doing free-for-all fractal runs via LFG) then Scourge may offer the supportive tools you need to help out a group.

I would argue that Reaper suffers more from a lack of Q/A than Scourge does... Combo'ing your GS into your ice field is pretty impossible without quickness--especially the double cast after 50% (unless you have a 0.000 ping.) And I'm not sure what you mean about Scourges relying on Alacrity for shade management either...? You only need to maintain 2 shades for 100% condi duration--they last for 20 seconds and your regenerate a charge every 15 seconds without alacrity--so it's really more an issue of life-force generation than having your summon shade off cooldown... Unless you just meant alacrity in the sense that you generate life-force faster with more skill casts?

If Reaper does not have Q/A it can only do one cast of Gravedigger after the Shroud Combo, whereas with Q/A it can manage two (provided a target is below 50% hp).

For Scourge keep in mind that if you want to perpetually maintain two shades you'd need a charge back every 10 seconds or you either have a less than 2 shade uptime average or slowly "lose" charges as you keep placing shades.

A quick summary here (assuming Q/A):

Scenario 1: you place a shade as the oldest shade expires so you stay at 2

Result: After 120 seconds you run out of shade charges (due to the Alacrity nerf affecting shade recharge time)

Scenario 2: You place a shade as you get a charge back

Result: your average shade uptime drops from 2 to 1.6

The other issue regarding Q/A and why it suffers more is that not only is Scourge relying on it to deal more damage, but it's also relying on Q/A to maintain its stats (specifically 100% condi duration). Without Q/A you lose out even more while Reaper's rotation AND stats would remain mostly the same.

[Amerikajinn.4635]

@narcx.3570 said:

@Sublimatio.6981 said:

@narcx.3570 said:

There's no epidemic on matthias, so you're free to take Shadow Fiend or Signet of Undeath and have unlimited life-force... That should be true for reaper too.no. you have to take bone fiend and suffer and blood is power, or not take creaper. the only reason you would choose creaper over scourge on matthias is suffer.@narcx.3570 said:Also, also, Matthias is somewhat of a cherry picked example for creaper being able to hit all of their chill fields... Since most people are playing Mirage in this fight you only have to worry about your zerker's fire field and chrono's wells... Which are easy to avoid. Most other bosses however, will also be covered with Lavafonts and DH Symbols. I'm not saying you can't hit your chill fields in every fight, I'm just saying you might have to delay your rotation a bit--and every delay puts you further off of that benchmark. Whereas, like you said, Scourge can just cast things off cd without a care in the world. (maybe just delaying torch 5 on like SH so you don't mess up the pushes or something, but that's whatever.)alright here you go, not cherrypicked boss hitting all chill fields minus one when we had to move. anything more to say? stop with this chill field "TOO HARD" argument already, it's like arguing with vaccine deniers

• Shadow Fiend + being able to use Reaper off cd is more DPS than Bone Fiend + Not having life-force.

Except if you're desperate for life force on Reaper you have Death's Spiral, which can be used before and/or after the Shroud combo to gain Life Force (wihch is 12% of your total back assuming you only hit one target).

• What is that video supposed to prove? There's one tempest causing a field, not 4 weavers. I don't really want to argue about it anyways cuz I don't really care... I don't even think hitting chill fields is that hard. I'm just saying it's a lot of effort just to pull 26k cleave on MO. Also, a ranger and a tempest--how old is this video? Is it even after the deathly chill nerf? Or is it current and you're in some sort of PoF denial guild?

Your ignorance on this subject is showing, and getting defensive because the evidence used here doesn't match up with PoF means nothing when HoT speccs like tempest had larger combo fields for Condi Reaper to contend with. I'd suggest carefully looking at the research and all of the evidence provided in this thread before getting so defensive and being adamant that Condi Reaper does not work when it has been working for a year in its current form at this point.

As I said previously, the choice between Reaper and Scourge is not a matter of which does more damage, as you don't HAVE TO only choose one due to how similar their builds are. You're able to pick which will work better for a fight in a given scenario due to the fundamental differences in their strengths. Reaper bursts faster, provides more CC, loses less damage when taking alternate traits like Parasitic Contagion should a situation require it, and has an alternate poll of "offensive" supportive effects like the pull from Grasping Darkness or the blinds from Nightfall. Scourge has an easier rotation, can do the vast majority of its damage from range and has supportive abilities like barriers and condi cleanses you can utilize. On top of all of this provided you play them well either work in any given scenario anyway so if you're particularly attached to one you can still use it wherever you want without much issue.

As for one Tempest being there instead of 4 weavers, I won't blame you if you don't know what fields Weaver and Tempest have different between them because you clearly only care about PoF now. When it comes to combo fields that actually pose a problem for Reaper the issue is not quantity but size. 4 small fields always being placed on a boss (like lava font) is far less of an issue than an Overload Air being placed by a Tempest, because the larger a field is the farther off of a stack you need to move to be able to attune to the correct ice field which comes up to more difficulty in getting the desired attunement.

But to further dilute the pool of "cherry picked" bosses, have another example of Condi Reaper being played (disclaimer, was running Parasitic Contagion and doing Oil kiting so dps would be lower than what one would expect):

Finally, the amount of effort a build requires has no bearing on the subject here when the overarching dicussion points were whether or not the build works and how it compares to Condi Scourge; and if that is all you can do to counter the build then frankly your arguments have no solid ground to stand on (of course, seeing as saying "cuz I don't really care... " is the first thing you say when proven wrong then your arguments would hardly have had any body to them in the first place).