Which of the human gods has dominion over space and celestial bodies?

Pretty simple question, I'm thinking Melandru as she is the goddess of Nature in broad terms, and Nature doesn't limit itself to the typical Flora+Fauna but also any natural phenomena (The sun, moon+tides, stars, gravity, heat, etc.).My thought is further reinforced by the whole Druids thing, the humans who secluded themselves in the jungle who are said to be devout followers of Melandru and the Druid elite spec focused around celestial energy.

Discuss

Melandru seems to be more of an earth deity (ie specific to the planet) rather.

To me at least.

space in gw is the mists which none of the gods have domain over (only a domain in it)

Well, one could argue they all do in a way, since they're called "Mists beings", and they have homes in the Mists, can travel through the Mists freely, and even hold sway over the very center of all existence (the Hall of Heroes and the Rift).

But overall, the gods are more "metaphysical" (war, knowledge, beauty being prime among this side of things) domains; the elemental side of their domains have been suggested to be more preference than part of their power (as shown with Dhuum's lack of ice, and Kormir's lack of water), and stars aren't exactly in any of their elements.

One could argue Dwayna, though, as she does hold domain over light, and stars produce light.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:One could argue Dwayna, though, as she does hold domain over light, and stars produce light.

I don't think it is literal light, but rather the divine and goodliness and all that jack.

Otherwise she'd probably be considered a sun godess and AFAIK she isn't.

druids have access to celestial skills so i would say melandru

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well, one could argue they all do in a way, since they're called "Mists beings", and they have homes in the Mists, can travel through the Mists freely, and even hold sway over the very center of all existence (the Hall of Heroes and the Rift).

But overall, the gods are more "metaphysical" (war, knowledge, beauty being prime among this side of things) domains; the elemental side of their domains have been suggested to be more preference than part of their power (as shown with Dhuum's lack of ice, and Kormir's lack of water), and stars aren't exactly in any of their elements.

One could argue Dwayna, though, as she does hold domain over light, and stars produce light.

Are the Mists really Space then? I was pretty convinced it was meant to be understood as this nebulous realm that holds time and space together, à la multiverse. Like yeah when we travel to the Mists we don't go anywhere physically accessible in the physical realm where Tyria exists, rather it's another pan of space that exists parallel to it.

Lyssa definitely has Dominion over celestial body.x2

Another point in Dwayna's favor- she's the sky goddess, and for a people who may not know about space (for that matter, we don't even know if Tyria has an outer space), those shiny things up in the sky might well be considered part of the sky's domain.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well, one could argue they all do in a way, since they're called "Mists beings", and they have homes in the Mists, can travel through the Mists freely, and even hold sway over the very center of all existence (the Hall of Heroes and the Rift).

But overall, the gods are more "metaphysical" (war, knowledge, beauty being prime among this side of things) domains; the elemental side of their domains have been suggested to be more preference than part of their power (as shown with Dhuum's lack of ice, and Kormir's lack of water), and stars aren't exactly in any of their elements.

One could argue Dwayna, though, as she does hold domain over light, and stars produce light.

Light and heat via fire. Therefore Balthazar is the sun god.

@Oglaf.1074 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:One could argue Dwayna, though, as she does hold domain over light, and stars produce light.

All the gods are "divine" and as "good" as Dwayna is though. Even Balthazar was before they Balthaddon'd him.

@"Djahlat.9610" said:Are the Mists really Space then? I was pretty convinced it was meant to be understood as this nebulous realm that holds time and space together, à la multiverse. Like yeah when we travel to the Mists we don't go anywhere physically accessible in the physical realm where Tyria exists, rather it's another pan of space that exists parallel to it.

It's kind of a mixture of many things. It's proto-matter that creates stuff, it's the origin of all things, it's the space (or metaspace) between all realities.

When we go into the Mists, such as seen in the Realm of Torment, Mad Realm, or Shattered Observatory Fractal, or the end of The Charge, we see a vast nothingness with stars and what may be galaxies in the far distance. But it's more than just "space" as we have the afterlife there with statements of light existing but no sun, etc.

The gods don't actually have dominion over any specific places, do they? They "just" use vast magical powers in the very spot they are at that moment or spots that they have set up themselves (like their places in the Mists). They're gods to the humans of Tyria, and apparently rather powerful beings, but they have in no way such powers as we imagine in almighty gods.

I mean, after the exodus, they basically said "you're on your own because we had to leave, sorry guys". So that means that their reach does not extend (much) outside their current location. If it's still powerful enough for any of them to say "the moon is mine", I don't know.

Guild Wars definitely runs on a Lovecraftian “god system” in that there are no gods in the sense of Yahweh/Allah but rather only beings so vastly more powerful in comparison to humans that they are perceived as such.

Same thing with the elder dragons - they could very well be seen as godlike but nope, just super powerful beings that are just as “down to earth” like the rest of us.

Really makes me wonder if there exists beings out there that the Six would themselves consider gods. Cthulhu, the most famous of Lovecraftian “god”, is himself actually merely a servant to even more powerful beings that he worships as a gods. Or rather, used to.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Another point in Dwayna's favor- she's the sky goddess, and for a people who may not know about space (for that matter, we don't even know if Tyria has an outer space), those shiny things up in the sky might well be considered part of the sky's domain.

They definitely do know about stars and constellations, as shown in the Astralaria's last collection. Humans, Charr, and Norns recognize them, and we know that Jotuns were very apt stargazers.

@Djahlat.9610 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Another point in Dwayna's favor- she's the sky goddess, and for a people who may not know about space (for that matter, we don't even know if Tyria has an outer space), those shiny things up in the sky might well be considered part of the sky's domain.

Well, yeah, they know they're up there, and they probably have a pretty good idea of how they move across the sky. It's a large jump to go from that to "each and every one of these is a sun that's unimaginably distant, hanging in an emptiness more total than anything we'll ever encounter standing on the surface of Tyria." In the real world, it more than 3500 years passed between identifying constellations in the night sky and determining that stars are suns in their own right.

And, what's more, we don't know if that's what stars are in the Guild Wars universe- after all, we know from Nightfall, and possibly from GW2 as well, that they absolutely do change to herald events on Tyria, or perhaps in response to them. Maybe those stars are suns in outer space, or maybe they're suns in the Mists, or maybe they're not suns at all, or maybe some are suns and some are not. Maybe the Durmand Priory knows the answer and has made it common knowledge, or maybe every race has their own idea. We, as players, don't know at this point.

@Cuddy.6247 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well, one could argue they all do in a way, since they're called "Mists beings", and they have homes in the Mists, can travel through the Mists freely, and even hold sway over the very center of all existence (the Hall of Heroes and the Rift).

But overall, the gods are more "metaphysical" (war, knowledge, beauty being prime among this side of things) domains; the elemental side of their domains have been suggested to be more preference than part of their power (as shown with Dhuum's lack of ice, and Kormir's lack of water), and stars aren't exactly in any of their elements.

One could argue Dwayna, though, as she does hold domain over light, and stars produce light.

Dwayna is called the goddess of light by one of the Wintersday NPCs in GW1, and while I couldn't find it on a quick search, I'm pretty sure one of the Wintersday NPCs calls her the goddess of warmth as well. It wouldn't be surprising if humans of Tyria distinguish between gentle, life-giving warmth (Dwayna's domain) and violent, life-threatening heat and fire (Balthazar's). She's certainly the sky deity of the Six.

That said, though, we do know something about at least some constellations, namely that they are celestial beings (those we know of being former humans) who were placed in the skies to commemorate their actions in life, some being able to return to Tyria at auspicious times (the Canthan New Year for GW1, for instance). So it's possible that no god actually claims the stars as their own domain, and instead the stars are associated with the celestial beings. The Celestial Dragon that blesses Cantha during the Dragon Festival is possibly the most powerful of these beings, but may just be the most influential from the Canthan viewpoint.

Which could fit with the druids having access to celestial-themed magic, as they might be able to draw from celestials associated with Melandru.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Cuddy.6247 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well, one could argue they all do in a way, since they're called "Mists beings", and they have homes in the Mists, can travel through the Mists freely, and even hold sway over the very center of all existence (the Hall of Heroes and the Rift).

But overall, the gods are more "metaphysical" (war, knowledge, beauty being prime among this side of things) domains; the elemental side of their domains have been suggested to be more preference than part of their power (as shown with Dhuum's lack of ice, and Kormir's lack of water), and stars aren't exactly in any of their elements.

One could argue Dwayna, though, as she does hold domain over light, and stars produce light.

The sun god is displeased with your heresy.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

That said, though, we do know something about at least some constellations, namely that they are celestial beings (those we know of being former humans) who were placed in the skies to commemorate their actions in life, some being able to return to Tyria at auspicious times (the Canthan New Year for GW1, for instance). So it's possible that no god actually claims the stars as their own domain, and instead the stars are associated with the celestial beings. The Celestial Dragon that blesses Cantha during the Dragon Festival is possibly the most powerful of these beings, but may just be the most influential from the Canthan viewpoint.

Which could fit with the druids having access to celestial-themed magic, as they might be able to draw from celestials associated with Melandru.

Well we know that different races have different constellations, like the Humans (at least the continental Tyrian ones), on top of the Canthan Celestials, recognize the Gnarl of Melandru, the Hounds of Balthazar, the Eye of Grenth, or Kormir's Scales of OrderThe last one is especially interesting to me as it would seem to be a recent constellation, since Kormir did not exist as a deity until the end of Nightfall some 260 years ago, meaning the Order of the Sky must have witnessed a new constellation in the firmament,

I also want to point out that Melandru being the patron goddess of Travelers, and stars being used to find one's way during the night, it would make sense to me to depict her as a deity that refers to the stars to teach her followers how to travel efficiently if not to understand the natural order of the world around them.

I think we cannot say exactly who patronizes the Space or something related to it.

Melandru guards over the nature, and as the deity that stood between two worlds, it does not mean she only patronizes Tyria's nature, but also the stars' nature and planets'.

Dwayna is the goddess of life, and even stars live, they move and share their wisdom for example to the Ancient Jotun.

Grenth stands between the world of dead and living. He commands stars to die. He is also the god of darkness, but the darkness of the Space and the light magic of life commanded by Dwayna unite, but it doesn't mean they do not fight for something different.

There's been always a war between stars and the dark matter, as I wrote above, and the magic of the god of war commands them to fight, they cannot live without one another, but also they have to keep fight- it's never-ending war.

Kormir- the goddess of order keep everything in one piece, without this power, everything would become a chaos, she patronizes the eternal balance, her power is the balance itself, so she cannot deny herself and what she is, as Balthazar couldn't just say: I'll be the god of peace, because he was the god of war, and nothing could change that.

Lyssa is the goddess of beauty. The word "beauty" may not only mean that it's something pretty, but you can also call a war that is beautiful, or that the picture that presents a stinky sock is beautiful. Beauty can be also the illusion, imagine a dirty girl, that has her make up on her face, but under it she still looks dirty, and her make up hides the true nature of her What I mean is that the Space is a twisted Beauty, we cherish it, we are scared of it, but we know it's a beautiful beauty or a beautiful fear.

All gods of Tyria patronizes everything, there is the goddess of balance, but without the others Kormir cannot be what she is. They are all united, so we cannot tell exactly who patronizes what.

Every god of Tyria controls death and life, even Grenth- the death itself cannot live without, you know, living.

Also even though they left Tyria/ the Mists, the balance of the most primeval powers of the universe will never stop working.

There are two key facts the Humans of Tyria have about their gods. First: Tyrians know exactly where their gods live. Humans know all about The Mists, where entrances into The Mists are, and some of its properties, and can physically go there. (This is long before the Asura began expeditions into the Fractals of The Mists.) They would still use the sky and planets as landmarks, as humans on Earth did, and name formations of them after their gods. But they would not look to the sky and say "that light in the sky is [for example] Dwayna's realm", because they already know where Dwayna's realm is and what it looks like. Which leads into the second key fact: Tyrian Humans know exactly what their gods look like. They know that ball of light in the sky isn't a god, the same way they know it isn't their neighbor, or a Charr. They have personally seen their gods and can recognize them on sight (until about two hundred years ago).

From a god's perspective, outer space isn't worth their time. The great infinity of space is still paltry in comparison to the infinite infinities of meta-space, and it is uncertain. Imagine if you were wandering around a vast ocean, and every time you found new land, everything you needed that land to have was there, without fail. Would go deeper into that area and cross space you know did not have those things for the chance of maybe finding another one? or would you return to your ocean, fully knowing the next place you found would be just as suitable as this one was?

[it's very similar to the alternate planes of Magic: the Gathering, where each alternate plane in the Blind Eternities (their version of the "space between spaces", like The Mists) is effectively a single planet in its own space, and every time a Planeswalker travels to a plane, they arrive on the same world in that space. In fact, with so many Wizards of the Coast employees that also/now work at ArenaNet and vice versa, I'm surprised they haven't at least proposed some kind of crossover... but that's another discussion entirely.]

@"Arden.7480" said:

even stars live, they move and share their wisdom for example to the Ancient Jotun.

Grenth stands between the world of dead and living. He commands stars to die.There's been always a war between stars and the dark matter, as I wrote above, and the magic of the god of war commands them to fight, they cannot live without one another, but also they have to keep fight- it's never-ending war.

Lyssa is the goddess of beauty. The word "beauty" may not only mean that it's something pretty, but you can also call a war that is beautiful, or that the picture that presents a stinky sock is beautiful. Beauty can be also the illusion, imagine a dirty girl, that has her make up on her face, but under it she still looks dirty, and her make up hides the true nature of her What I mean is that the Space is a twisted Beauty, we cherish it, we are scared of it, but we know it's a beautiful beauty or a beautiful fear.

All gods of Tyria patronizes everything, there is the goddess of balance, but without the others Kormir cannot be what she is. They are all united, so we cannot tell exactly who patronizes what.

Every god of Tyria controls death and life, even Grenth- the death itself cannot live without, you know, living.

Also even though they left Tyria/ the Mists, the balance of the most primeval powers of the universe will never stop working.

i'll have what she's having.

@Arden.7480 said:I think we cannot say exactly who patronizes the Space or something related to it. [...]

I think the argument you're making doesn't really advance the discussion because it can be applied to virtually anything in the Lore. You could say the same about every domain that the gods oversee, like Fire: it's technically Balthazar's, but creates Light (Dwayna), is an inherent part of nature (Melandru), etc.I do agree, in that sense, that intersectionality of dominionship for Tyrian gods is undeniable, but still I am asking which one god people think is primarily associated with space and celestial bodies.

Hope that clears the question!

@Djahlat.9610 said:

@Arden.7480 said:I think we cannot say exactly who patronizes the Space or something related to it. [...]

As I said They are all united, so we cannot tell exactly who patronizes what.

Balthazar- never been stated he was controlling spaceGrenth- neitherMelandru- neitherKormir- neitherLyssa- neitherDwayna- neither

The cosmos is (like) the All, all the forces unite, so there is no leadership in that- it's the chaos and the order at the same time, that what I meant in my previous post.

I would speculate that originally it was Abaddon who stargazers would have worshipped in their profession. He was the god of secrets (what's more secretive than the distant night sky), the depths (space is pretty deep), and seafarers (most notably the margonites) would use the stars and constellations for orientation more than any landlocked traveler. Then he fell from grace, and considering that humanity got everything they could want from stargazing by then (I mostly mean the calendars), that domain was left kinda unclaimed by the others.

@Arden.7480 said:

@Djahlat.9610 said:

@Arden.7480 said:I think we cannot say exactly who patronizes the Space or something related to it. [...]

I think I got a better idea of the point you're getting across, but the reason for my post was to open the discussion for speculating. I know there's nothing canon about space, I just wanted to read what people had to say about it.So, knowing that the Six oversee everything that has to do with the life of Tyrans, which one would you best imagine to be associated with the vastness of space and celestial bodies?