New Malice Generation Feedback

So I had the chance to play around with the changes last night for an hour or so.

My thoughts:

Malice generation is very reliant on critical hit rate. A good rotation of skills will get a Deadeye to maximum malice very quickly. However, that only happens when you have significant crit rate built in and you land all of your attacks. Deadeye damage skills assume lots of malice generation that can be shut down if you aren’t able to crit often (build or weakness) or block/evade/invuln/projectile hate get in the way of landing attacks.

I agree in general that crit rate should enhance malice gain. I’m concerned that the current malice pool of 5/7 and malice generation system gives too much advantage to crit rate. A crit gives 40/29% of total malice and a non-crit is 20/14%. This means you need 3/4 strikes at 100% crit to max malice. This is a lot of initiative but M7 can offset this by returning initiative. However, assuming a 50% crit rate that number becomes a 50-50 chance to be 4/5. Five attacks is where the risk of at least one missing or being blocked increases which adds at least +1 to the number of attacks needed to reach max malice (a crit gets replaced by a non-crit). In short, a full crit build will build malice faster and be less debilitated if one attack misses because their overall initiative pool will suffice.

Where it gets worst is low crit builds with around 25% crit rate. In those situations the number of attacks for max malice is as high as 5/6. This is a lot of initiative and exposes the DE to many chances for avoiding the initiative skills adding even higher numbers to max malice. In practice, this low of a crit rate is where the word “unviable” might be thrown around. The main issue is that this low rate requires sustained skill use which exceeds the initiative capacity of a thief to produce in combat situations where skill usage depends more on the needs of the moment than the most efficient malice generation per initiative point spent.

If I had a suggestion I would uncouple the Malice gain from an attack doing damage. That means even if you get blocked you still gain malice from the initiative using ability. But you won’t gain the second malice point unless the skill connects and crits. This gives an advantage to crit based builds but doesn’t lock thief into a glass crit based build in order to use malice to full effect. You still get rewarded for landing skills but don’t get completely locked out of a mechanic if your build doesn't carry quite as much crit.

I wouldn't mind so much even with kind of low crit % if most of my shots pierced with rifle to land stuff in crowds.

Would you believe I have even less control of Malice stacks now?

@Eloc Freidon.5692 said:Would you believe I have even less control of Malice stacks now?

It was like this yesterday, too. Malice is a core feature of that profession just as much as the 3 dodges on Daredevil, it feels literally like RNG.Either targets die so fast because I am forced to fight it before I reach maximum malice, or it feels so bad and such a sorry excuse. The name does not live up the standards anymore, just like the entire specialization.

I feel that Malice generation depends on you weapons and the change is not entirely bad: With dagger is is pretty unpleasant to build up 5-7 stacks because most of the damage comes from the AA. But with rifle for example its very easy to deals good damage and pressuring the opponent while preparing the burst (stealth attack). So, for rifle-power builds I think not much has changes - except the damage nerf but that's another story.

So, the dependence on critically hitting your target is perfectly fine because most thief builds require that anyway (if the build relies on burst) or they focus on bringing you don't with conditions. In the latter case a little less bursty-ness is not a big deal in my opinion..

I find the direction of the changes to be a good one (combo-like system), but the implementation is lackluster (pve perspective).

Power:

Rifle- Kinda works. Build up malice with 3 or 2 and use it up with DJ. Main problem imo is the break of stealth from Silent Scope. Having to use a utility (or the elite) to get the stealth to fire DJ is kinda awkward.

Pistol/ Pistol - You can ignore malice. You only want to get rid of it if using M7, to proc the build-up again. This is kinda a backwards motivation. When playing Bqobk I ignore malice as a mechanic, when with M7 once I reach 7 I'm looking for ways to get rid of it.

Dagger/Dagger - It benchmarks high, but you have to use 2 malice backstabs. That also FEELS kinda bad. Basically being a DE vs being a core thief changes nothing from a gameplay perspective (except that you have to mark a target and you lose the steal+CnD combo), since using additional skills to build up more malice is an overall dps loss.

Sword/Dagger - Kinda works, but it is just a bonus. I dont think about the malice. I do what I do and go into stealth for CC or disengage. Endurance isn't really an issue with this set, but initiative is. Would have been preferable to have initiative regen in the stealth attack.

Dagger/Pistol - Works better than D/D from a pure flow/gameplay perspective. You can actually think about building malice and how to combo with your skills to get the most from using it. Probably the best set with regards to sinergy with the new system.

Shortbow- I actually found this to be surprisingly fun to clear groups ot enemies with. Was unexpected. Findind a way to stealth is the main issue, since it is not innate to the set, but DE elite works well enough.

Condi (this will be really brienf, since imo condi DE does not work well in general):

Pistol/Dagger - Basically same issue as D/D.

Dagger/Dagger - You ignore malice, backstab does nothing for you as condi. At best you want to dump it when using M7 (P/P issue).

Shortbow - Ignore malice.

Feedback: The main issue I find with the system is the "spender" part. On each set it is tied to a specific attack, that is:

• Not readily available or atm clunky.
• Not worth using with a given set or breaks flow.
• Needs to be used more often, so actually building up malice is a net loss.

Proposed solutions:

• Number of total available malice stacks is tied to the MH weapon(since that is where the stealth attack is) and they have tweaked effects. M7 can just be reworded to add +2 max malice or something similar.

• Malice spending can be tied to initiative regeneration for every set. This can be either a flat ini. gain or it can give increased regeneration for X seconds depending on malice used.

• F2 gives malice or can be traited to give stealth.

• Other cantrip skills can benefits from malice and also consume it OR they give X number of malice. Or ofc some give, some take.

• Killing a non-marked target, while having a mark gives malice.

• Malice is generated differently depending on the initiative cost of the skill. Higher cost = more malice. This is in addition to the current hit/crit requirements.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that having malice as an uneven number (5 or 7) so feels bad (imo). If you are in a situation where you have to do awkward stuff to get that extra point, assuming high crit chance. You either:

• Crit and go over cap.
• Not crit, don't go over cap, but do less dmg.
• Use a healing skill to get malice?

It just comes down again to it not feeling "right". This however can be adressed by having skills give more malice depending on the initiative cost.

right on bud its what i am feeling with my thief right now but i have a odd bug were when i use malice and do backstab on a guy from behind i only do 5k and when i have no malice i have 10k but yes you are right

Another potential change is to add back in a passive malice gain over time.

This reflects that malice is consumed. The passive would be slower than using skills or gaining critical hits but still make malice gain feel more fluid. For example, 1 malice every four seconds would mean a DE gets full malice after 20-28 seconds. That provides one fully charged stealth attack an average of one per mark. But it means a person who attacks for 10 seconds gets two extra malice to play with outside of the crit bonus RNG system.

@"ShadowAgent.6053" said:I find the direction of the changes to be a good one (combo-like system), but the implementation is lackluster (pve perspective).

Power:

Rifle- Kinda works. Build up malice with 3 or 2 and use it up with DJ. Main problem imo is the break of stealth from Silent Scope. Having to use a utility (or the elite) to get the stealth to fire DJ is kinda awkward.

Pistol/ Pistol - You can ignore malice. You only want to get rid of it if using M7, to proc the build-up again. This is kinda a backwards motivation. When playing Bqobk I ignore malice as a mechanic, when with M7 once I reach 7 I'm looking for ways to get rid of it.

Dagger/Dagger - It benchmarks high, but you have to use 2 malice backstabs. That also FEELS kinda bad. Basically being a DE vs being a core thief changes nothing from a gameplay perspective (except that you have to mark a target and you lose the steal+CnD combo), since using additional skills to build up more malice is an overall dps loss.

Sword/Dagger - Kinda works, but it is just a bonus. I dont think about the malice. I do what I do and go into stealth for CC or disengage. Endurance isn't really an issue with this set, but initiative is. Would have been preferable to have initiative regen in the stealth attack.

Dagger/Pistol - Works better than D/D from a pure flow/gameplay perspective. You can actually think about building malice and how to combo with your skills to get the most from using it. Probably the best set with regards to sinergy with the new system.

Shortbow- I actually found this to be surprisingly fun to clear groups ot enemies with. Was unexpected. Findind a way to stealth is the main issue, since it is not innate to the set, but DE elite works well enough.

Condi (this will be really brienf, since imo condi DE does not work well in general):

Pistol/Dagger - Basically same issue as D/D.

Dagger/Dagger - You ignore malice, backstab does nothing for you as condi. At best you want to dump it when using M7 (P/P issue).

Shortbow - Ignore malice.

Feedback: The main issue I find with the system is the "spender" part. On each set it is tied to a specific attack, that is:

• Not readily available or atm clunky.
• Not worth using with a given set or breaks flow.
• Needs to be used more often, so actually building up malice is a net loss.

Proposed solutions:

• Number of total available malice stacks is tied to the MH weapon(since that is where the stealth attack is) and they have tweaked effects. M7 can just be reworded to add +2 max malice or something similar.

• Malice spending can be tied to initiative regeneration for every set. This can be either a flat ini. gain or it can give increased regeneration for X seconds depending on malice used.

• F2 gives malice or can be traited to give stealth.

• Other cantrip skills can benefits from malice and also consume it OR they give X number of malice. Or ofc some give, some take.

• Killing a non-marked target, while having a mark gives malice.

• Malice is generated differently depending on the initiative cost of the skill. Higher cost = more malice. This is in addition to the current hit/crit requirements.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that having malice as an uneven number (5 or 7) so feels bad (imo). If you are in a situation where you have to do awkward stuff to get that extra point, assuming high crit chance. You either:

• Crit and go over cap.
• Not crit, don't go over cap, but do less dmg.
• Use a healing skill to get malice?

It just comes down again to it not feeling "right". This however can be adressed by having skills give more malice depending on the initiative cost.

This, maybe with the exception of tying malice numbers to each weapon, should have been the approach all along.Malice still feels useless in most situations, and only seems to work on veterans and higher (tough ones, otherwise they die before it's stacked) it is more reliable to stack, especially with proper crit builds, than it used to be when it was time based.But when dealing with open world, trash mobs, or any other situation you can't hang around too long, it just feels useless, and i'd gladly trade it for an aoe of some sort.

@saerni.2584 said:Another potential change is to add back in a passive malice gain over time.

This reflects that malice is consumed. The passive would be slower than using skills or gaining critical hits but still make malice gain feel more fluid. For example, 1 malice every four seconds would mean a DE gets full malice after 20-28 seconds. That provides one fully charged stealth attack an average of one per mark. But it means a person who attacks for 10 seconds gets two extra malice to play with outside of the crit bonus RNG system.

That brings back one of the reasons they did this entire rework to begin with, though.They tried (and failed) to remove the Deadeye's cowering in stealth waiting for Malice to build before popping DJ, by making the malice generation more active than passive, forcing the player to take actions before he can reap a hard hit from stealth.

Now the reason I say they failed, is that you can still do this by building Malice Stacks through healing, but it takes a lot longer than before at least, a little over a minute or so... Rifle isn't really the go-to weapon anymore either, dagger is. Dagger has no tell or travel-time and a 70% damage increase on backstab is a guaranteed one-shot, the only thing you have to do is stalk your target for a minute.

Sounds mighty tedious you say? But hey, someone does it. Someone always does...

@TwiceDead.1963 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Another potential change is to add back in a passive malice gain over time.

This reflects that malice is consumed. The passive would be slower than using skills or gaining critical hits but still make malice gain feel more fluid. For example, 1 malice every four seconds would mean a DE gets full malice after 20-28 seconds. That provides one fully charged stealth attack an average of one per mark. But it means a person who attacks for 10 seconds gets two extra malice to play with outside of the crit bonus RNG system.

True. A solution might be to make base malice generation only happen when visible.

Another tactic would be to add a point of malice generation to Stealth Attacks landing.

Or you could make malice gain initiative based. So you get one malice for every three initiative spent on a skill that does strike damage. You get an extra point if the skill crits. The amount of initiative spent rolls over to the next skill (so a 4 initiative skill + a 5 initiative skill gives you 3 malice without a crit and 5 malice if both crit.

Doesn't spotters shot grant +20% crit chance? It helps reduce the cost. But If you aren't going power, your damage is probably coming g from a different source.