Raid difficulty and challenge motes - Page 6 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid difficulty and challenge motes

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  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:
    @Blaeys.3102

    I am not attempting to say that people don't want or shouldn't want access to that story. It, just is flat out not related to the Commander (PC). That, by it's nature makes it a side story. Whether people want access to it or not, has no bearing on whether it is or is not a side story.

    The decision to lock the content behind a skill wall, that they intentionally made high, and whether it is bad or not, is highly subjective.

    I do not see it as a bad thing, simply because there is nothing wrong with some content that a majority will never experience. In this, raids are content that are all about the challenge for the group, the story is secondary. If it was all about the story, why doesn't it involve the Commander, why is most of the story told through notes, not dialogue and cut scenes?

    Yes, it has interesting story. But just because it has interesting story, does not mean that it has to be for everyone. Perhaps if it kills the game, then it can be said that it was needed. But if the game continues to go strong, then perhaps it never did need it, and people just wanted it.

    You are right - it is highly subjective, which is why I say it is a semantic argument to begin with. It is why you and I disagree on the definition - but I do still believe that the developer's use of the phrase "side story" when first used in relation to raids (and I was an active part of that conversation) was misleading and used almost exclusively to convince people that they wouldn't be interested in the stories in the first place. That was just weeks before wing four came out and we saw that the story dealt with the fate of a GW1 character - a story/revelation that a lot of people (not just hardcore raiders) would have loved experiencing with their friends.

    So, if the story is truly secondary, as you say, then a short term solution seems to be removing story from raids entirely - at least until a better solution can be developed. Not saying that would solve the underlying issue with raid design in this game, but it would keep it from getting worse for the time being.

    To your other argument, it really doesn't matter what they originally intended raids to be. If we go with that line of reasoning, there is a lot in the game that would have never changed. Sometimes, the game has to adapt.

    They have clearly proven themselves that multiple difficulties would work (by Crystal's own admission, whether she accepts it or not, with her comments about MO challenge mote earlier in this thread). Other games have shown that it eventually becomes necessary to sustain a raiding community. No matter what people think of how story modes were implemented in those games, they were implemented for a reason.

    I believe it is just a matter of time before Anet has to accept that they will be needed in this game as well.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    Sometimes, the game has to adapt.

    Very true. Sometimes though, the player has to adapt (look no further than dungeons, no matter how much people want it, Anet is leaving it behind). They have put a lot of different things into the game, and unfortunately they can't fully develop everything. If the trade-off for single difficulty raids, was no raids, due to the limited resources that they wanted to put into it. I'll gladly take the single difficulty.

    They have clearly proven themselves that multiple difficulties would work (by Crystal's own admission, whether she accepts it or not, with her comments about MO challenge mote earlier in this thread). Other games have shown that it eventually becomes necessary to sustain a raiding community, not matter what people think of how they were implemented there. It is just a matter of time before Anet has to accept that.

    It isn't about whether it would work or not. I'm pretty sure that they know that multiple modes would work. The problem lies with the trade-off being the frequency with which they can release content, and they prefer a higher frequency of content. (I understand that her comment about their preference to put out content faster was more in relation to making it more accessible from a grouping standpoint, but I feel that it can be easily applied to making different difficulty levels as well.)

    They may accept that, but they do not have to. They may never accept that, and the game could continue on for a couple of decades, being successful. In that instance, it is just a matter of time before the player accepts that Anet isn't changing it.

    I also get the feeling that Anet isn't trying to maintain a tight knit raiding community. If they were, why do the raid devs barely partake with the community, or even a raid CM? Raids feel more like, here you go, see what you can do with it. We created this challenge, we want to see how you solve it.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168

    Except raiding in this game - for actual hardcore raiders - is a bit of a joke. First kills are within hours, if not minutes, of the raid wing release, compared to days, weeks (and even months in one case I can remember) for other raid focused games.

    There are raiding games out there that push your knowledge, reflexes and general skill at the game - GW2 is not one of them. You memorize the "dance" of the raid and everything else is just numbers. Difficulty in GW2 raids is centered almost entirely around mathematical tweaks that only serve to make the content less accessible (or, at the very least, overly frustrating) to average players who enjoy off brand (way off meta) builds or playstyles. That frustration creates an illusion that relies on exclusionary design (fewer people do it so it must be hard) rather than actual difficult mechanics.

    The problem is that, in order to maintain that illusion of difficulty, they have to maintain the exclusionary design, and that is potentially damaging to the feel of the game for people not interested in the arbitrary requirements of GW2 raiding in its current form.

    And that stems from a fundamental design difference between GW2 and those other games - the very difference that brought people like me to the game in the first place. GW2 is more community focused than pretty much any other MMO out there. Guilds actually mean something here - people are encouraged to become part of the larger community. In contrast, raid focused MMOs are more about the small group (5, 10, 25, 40 person) experience. They build their content almost exclusively to cater to those groups. That is what Anet is trying to do with raids, but I do believe it goes against the underlying feel of the game and often works in direct contradiction to that community focused design that made the game so groundbreaking when it first came out.

  • Exciton.8942Exciton.8942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Fatalyz.7168

    Except raiding in this game - for actual hardcore raiders - is a bit of a joke. First kills are within hours, if not minutes, of the raid wing release, compared to days, weeks (and even months in one case I can remember) for other raid focused games.

    There are raiding games out there that push your knowledge, reflexes and general skill at the game - GW2 is not one of them. You memorize the "dance" of the raid and everything else is just numbers. Difficulty in GW2 raids is centered almost entirely around mathematical tweaks that only serve to make the content less accessible (or, at the very least, overly frustrating) to average players who enjoy off brand (way off meta) builds or playstyles. That frustration creates an illusion that relies on exclusionary design (fewer people do it so it must be hard) rather than actual difficult mechanics.

    The problem is that, in order to maintain that illusion of difficulty, they have to maintain the exclusionary design, and that is potentially damaging to the feel of the game for people not interested in the arbitrary requirements of GW2 raiding in its current form.

    And that stems from a fundamental design difference between GW2 and those other games - the very difference that brought people like me to the game in the first place. GW2 is more community focused than pretty much any other MMO out there. Guilds actually mean something here - people are encouraged to become part of the larger community. In contrast, raid focused MMOs are more about the small group (5, 10, 25, 40 person) experience. They build their content almost exclusively to cater to those groups. That is what Anet is trying to do with raids, but I do believe it goes against the underlying feel of the game and often works in direct contradiction to that community focused design that made the game so groundbreaking when it first came out.

    I have to disagree.

    Encounter mechanics is precisely the No.1 reason that raid is challenging for most players. It is not because that they can't run off-meta builds.
    There is no strict dps requirement to beat most encounters and most meta builds are not that much worse than meta ones. You can easily get away by doing 20%-30% less dps than optimal builds.

    So you think content should either be so difficult that it has to be like a second job for players to beat or so easy that every one can beat with ease. I feel you are ignoring many players falling into a middle ground in content difficulty(just like me). For me, gw2 raid difficulty is very well-tuned. It provides just enough challenge for casual gamers.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Exciton.8942 said:

    Never said that people can't beat raids with off meta builds. What I said is that raids are much more frustrating for people who choose to do so - which in turn discourages a lot of people from the content.

    I made my comments about difficulty versus other raiding games because of Crystal's point about remembering the first time you kill a particular boss. I dont recall my first Vale Guardian kill fondly with pride. I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta. On the contrary, after a decade, I still remember my first KT kill in WoW, or first Lich King or Yogg Saron Alone in the Dark - and the effort that went into learning and beating those encounters. I remember them, in part, because they fit well with how that game was designed and who it was designed for.

    The math in GW2 raids is not a hard wall restriction, but it is punishing enough to make the experience exponentially more frustrating for players, creating that illusionary difficulty that I talk about above. It isn't a black and white difference; it is a matter of degrees. And, with the way Anet markets raids, they rely on that frustration and the people who succumb to it (which is bad for the community, imo), rather than any real difficulty, to create the illusion of challenging content.

    And, to make things worse, they really can't fix it without changing their entire design philosophy around raids. Lonami said it best on reddit and again here in this thread, but I will attempt to summarize -

    Without separating into multiple difficulties, they have to make too many concessions related to difficulty in order to keep from pushing that frustration spot to the point where the number of raiders no longer justifies development time. If they make it too hard, they lose too many people. If they make it too easy, they lose a different group of people. They are paying Peter to rob Paul either way. Ergo, if we want continued (actual) difficult content in raids, in a sustainable model, we need the story or easier motes alongside the challenging content.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyrus.2607 said:
    I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. **That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

    this. just a cheap mode for the curious ppl.

    But although from what I observed in the raids, there is not much of lore in there, just few dialogues and cinematics at end. .

    In fact, anyone who has ever done raids, maybe because people talk about complex mechanics, imagine it to be a business full of cinematics and dialogues and lore lol.

    "The mists are full of lies"

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Fatalyz.7168

    Except raiding in this game - for actual hardcore raiders - is a bit of a joke. First kills are within hours, if not minutes, of the raid wing release, compared to days, weeks (and even months in one case I can remember) for other raid focused games.

    I understand that it is. The thing about that is, it was never marketed towards hardcore raiders. It was only ever marketed as challenging group content, and within the context of the rest of the game, it fits.

    There are raiding games out there that push your knowledge, reflexes and general skill at the game - GW2 is not one of them. You memorize the "dance" of the raid and everything else is just numbers. Difficulty in GW2 raids is centered almost entirely around mathematical tweaks that only serve to make the content less accessible (or, at the very least, overly frustrating) to average players who enjoy off brand (way off meta) builds or playstyles. That frustration creates an illusion that relies on exclusionary design (fewer people do it so it must be hard) rather than actual difficult mechanics.

    Except, that if people are able to perform the mechanics, a lot of fights could be done with 10/10 off-meta builds. The difference is, running off-meta builds requires a much deeper understanding of your class/playstyle, as well as the ability to continue performing mechanics. I would say that this pushes your knowledge, reflexes, and general skill at the game.

    If anything running meta builds makes it easier for people to get into raids, not harder. All of the work has already been done for the player.

    The problem is that, in order to maintain that illusion of difficulty, they have to maintain the exclusionary design, and that is potentially damaging to the feel of the game for people not interested in the arbitrary requirements of GW2 raiding in its current form.

    And that stems from a fundamental design difference between GW2 and those other games - the very difference that brought people like me to the game in the first place. GW2 is more community focused than pretty much any other MMO out there. Guilds actually mean something here - people are encouraged to become part of the larger community. In contrast, raid focused MMOs are more about the small group (5, 10, 25, 40 person) experience. They build their content almost exclusively to cater to those groups. That is what Anet is trying to do with raids, but I do believe it goes against the underlying feel of the game and often works in direct contradiction to that community focused design that made the game so groundbreaking when it first came out.

    The difference is, those games wanted raids to cater to multiple communities within the game, and that isn't a bad thing. GW2 wants raids to cater to those who want a challenge, not those who don't, and that isn't a bad thing either. Saying that they should just remove the story then because someone might find it interesting and can't do the challenge, is not.

    I will admit that Crystal said that raids SHOULD stay challenging and exclusive based on skill level, that doesn't mean that it will. I did take it to mean that it will stay that way unless it becomes a failure or detracts from the main game.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Exciton.8942 said:

    Never said that people can't beat raids with off meta builds. What I said is that raids are much more frustrating for people who choose to do so - which in turn discourages a lot of people from the content.

    I made my comments about difficulty versus other raiding games because of Crystal's point about remembering the first time you kill a particular boss. I dont recall my first Vale Guardian kill fondly with pride. I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta. On the contrary, after a decade, I still remember my first KT kill in WoW, or first Lich King or Yogg Saron Alone in the Dark - and the effort that went into learning and beating those encounters. I remember them, in part, because they fit well with how that game was designed and who it was designed for.

    The math in GW2 raids is not a hard wall restriction, but it is punishing enough to make the experience exponentially more frustrating for players, creating that illusionary difficulty that I talk about above. It isn't a black and white difference; it is a matter of degrees. And, with the way Anet markets raids, they rely on that frustration and the people who succumb to it (which is bad for the community, imo), rather than any real difficulty, to create the illusion of challenging content.

    And, to make things worse, they really can't fix it without changing their entire design philosophy around raids. Lonami said it best on reddit and again here in this thread, but I will attempt to summarize -

    Without separating into multiple difficulties, they have to make too many concessions related to difficulty in order to keep from pushing that frustration spot to the point where the number of raiders no longer justifies development time. If they make it too hard, they lose too many people. If they make it too easy, they lose a different group of people. They are paying Peter to rob Paul either way. Ergo, if we want continued (actual) difficult content in raids, in a sustainable model, we need the story or easier motes alongside the challenging content.

    Gw2 doesnt need to do too many diff mode the most would be base mode and cm. The game hasnt or wont become raid centric raiding as alot of ppl have said is a niche and if you want to get into it you should change your aproach. Much like i had to change my entire paladin build in wow when i dicided to get into raids. Wow tries to make raids relavant to alot more ppl because raids are what wow is played for.

    "I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta" is there something wrong with that? should content require you to have a specific playstyle and something that makes sense to compensate for the lack of skill required? U remember your first raids in wow because that was prob your first real interaction with the content meanwhile gw2's isnt something new so it wont stick to you. I for example my first raid experience was lfr in wod then i took a break and went to gw2 and raided. I hold my first vg kill with alot more pride than i do my first wow kill. Same when i went back to legion and tried heroic nightmare. it wasnt so much impactful to me as a player because i had already experienced the struggle and excitement of raiding elsewere.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Exciton.8942 said:

    Never said that people can't beat raids with off meta builds. What I said is that raids are much more frustrating for people who choose to do so - which in turn discourages a lot of people from the content.

    I made my comments about difficulty versus other raiding games because of Crystal's point about remembering the first time you kill a particular boss. I dont recall my first Vale Guardian kill fondly with pride. I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta. On the contrary, after a decade, I still remember my first KT kill in WoW, or first Lich King or Yogg Saron Alone in the Dark - and the effort that went into learning and beating those encounters. I remember them, in part, because they fit well with how that game was designed and who it was designed for.

    The math in GW2 raids is not a hard wall restriction, but it is punishing enough to make the experience exponentially more frustrating for players, creating that illusionary difficulty that I talk about above. It isn't a black and white difference; it is a matter of degrees. And, with the way Anet markets raids, they rely on that frustration and the people who succumb to it (which is bad for the community, imo), rather than any real difficulty, to create the illusion of challenging content.

    And, to make things worse, they really can't fix it without changing their entire design philosophy around raids. Lonami said it best on reddit and again here in this thread, but I will attempt to summarize -

    Without separating into multiple difficulties, they have to make too many concessions related to difficulty in order to keep from pushing that frustration spot to the point where the number of raiders no longer justifies development time. If they make it too hard, they lose too many people. If they make it too easy, they lose a different group of people. They are paying Peter to rob Paul either way. Ergo, if we want continued (actual) difficult content in raids, in a sustainable model, we need the story or easier motes alongside the challenging content.

    Gw2 doesnt need to do too many diff mode the most would be base mode and cm. The game hasnt or wont become raid centric raiding as alot of ppl have said is a niche and if you want to get into it you should change your aproach. Much like i had to change my entire paladin build in wow when i dicided to get into raids. Wow tries to make raids relavant to alot more ppl because raids are what wow is played for.

    "I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta" is there something wrong with that? should content require you to have a specific playstyle and something that makes sense to compensate for the lack of skill required? U remember your first raids in wow because that was prob your first real interaction with the content meanwhile gw2's isnt something new so it wont stick to you. I for example my first raid experience was lfr in wod then i took a break and went to gw2 and raided. I hold my first vg kill with alot more pride than i do my first wow kill. Same when i went back to legion and tried heroic nightmare. it wasnt so much impactful to me as a player because i had already experienced the struggle and excitement of raiding elsewere.

    Raids take 8 or so months to come out how longer to do you thing that would be if raids lets say had 3 modes? And already the cm isnt a brand new take on the fight its basically the same encounter with buffed hp and a changed mechanic.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Exciton.8942 said:

    Never said that people can't beat raids with off meta builds. What I said is that raids are much more frustrating for people who choose to do so - which in turn discourages a lot of people from the content.

    I made my comments about difficulty versus other raiding games because of Crystal's point about remembering the first time you kill a particular boss. I dont recall my first Vale Guardian kill fondly with pride. I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta. On the contrary, after a decade, I still remember my first KT kill in WoW, or first Lich King or Yogg Saron Alone in the Dark - and the effort that went into learning and beating those encounters. I remember them, in part, because they fit well with how that game was designed and who it was designed for.

    The math in GW2 raids is not a hard wall restriction, but it is punishing enough to make the experience exponentially more frustrating for players, creating that illusionary difficulty that I talk about above. It isn't a black and white difference; it is a matter of degrees. And, with the way Anet markets raids, they rely on that frustration and the people who succumb to it (which is bad for the community, imo), rather than any real difficulty, to create the illusion of challenging content.

    And, to make things worse, they really can't fix it without changing their entire design philosophy around raids. Lonami said it best on reddit and again here in this thread, but I will attempt to summarize -

    Without separating into multiple difficulties, they have to make too many concessions related to difficulty in order to keep from pushing that frustration spot to the point where the number of raiders no longer justifies development time. If they make it too hard, they lose too many people. If they make it too easy, they lose a different group of people. They are paying Peter to rob Paul either way. Ergo, if we want continued (actual) difficult content in raids, in a sustainable model, we need the story or easier motes alongside the challenging content.

    The thing is, I don't see raids as being intended towards the hardcore crowd, nothing in this game is, at least to me. I see this is as a casual game. Raids are challenging content, within that scope. Ergo, raids are intended to be "casual challenging content". Not meant to cater to either extreme. This is OK because they want raids in this game, to remain niche content. Niche content in games is good. There is just a disconnect with raids, where some people do not think it is acceptable for raids to be the niche content, and can't seem to get around that.

  • setdog.1592setdog.1592 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    i enjoy this game alot and lately ive been getting more and more interesting in doing fractals, then i learned about Challenge Mote fractals I was thinking, "gee i really need to finish my ascended gear so I can do these "Challenge Mode" level 100 Fractals

    I went online to check out a guide and found a video of a Guardian soloing a F100 challenge mote

    Cant tell you how much i feel that just screams "Broken Game",

    whats the challenge if "group content" can be soloed?

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @setdog.1592 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    i enjoy this game alot and lately ive been getting more and more interesting in doing fractals, then i learned about Challenge Mote fractals I was thinking, "gee i really need to finish my ascended gear so I can do these "Challenge Mode" level 100 Fractals

    I went online to check out a guide and found a video of a Guardian soloing a F100 challenge mote

    Cant tell you how much i feel that just screams "Broken Game",

    whats the challenge if "group content" can be soloed?

    The challenge was in being able to solo, that is no easy feat, and a really skilled player who knew the encounter and their class. There have been at least one raid boss soloed (Cairn), and most hardcore guilds run low-man raids (5-6 instead of 10). Most players in this game are no where near that skill level.

  • FOX.3582FOX.3582 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    This game has been a very easy "press 1111 only and still get the best gear etc" game since release. You can't just tell people to "accept the change" when this game is changing into something they didn't ask and pay for. Thanks to this raid drama we now have a game were elitists leave because raids are too easy (let's be honest, they are not hard at all), and casual (newbies) leave because this isn't the game anymore as it was when they've bought it. If someone should accept something, it should've been the people who cried for hardcore content all the time, because they are the ones who wanted to change the game! To bad Anet listened to much. The playerbase has dropped like flies after HoT...

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @FOX.3582 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SirMoogie.9263 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    The big question is why are they aren't designed to be more accessible to different skill levels given that they are telling stories that many players would like to experience (in character), my small guild included? They can still remain the most challenging content, while offering different skill levels, as you yourselves have proven with the challenge motes.

    They aren't designed to be more accessible because it would detract from being able to push out content at an acceptable rate. She even mentioned it in her reply, "... any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content." The only solution to being able to continue to release raids at the clip that they are, while providing more difficulty levels, would be to hire more people. For a game that isn't considered raid-centric, that would seem to be a poor use of resources. In the current set-up, it's a small team or two that are working on them, not a lot of resources.

    At the end of the day, they had/have a very specific vision for Raids in GW2. They've told us their vision, and stood by it. At some point, you have to start accepting it, otherwise you just end up bitter (not you specifically, just people in general seem to get bitter when fighting to understand or change something, and it never comes to fruition).

    This game has been a very easy "press 1111 only and still get the best gear etc" game since release. You can't just tell people to "accept the change" when this game is changing into something they didn't ask and pay for. Thanks to this raid drama we now have a game were elitists leave because raids are too easy (let's be honest, they are not hard at all), and casual (newbies) leave because this isn't the game anymore as it was when they've bought it. If someone should accept something, it should've been the people who cried for hardcore content all the time, because they are the ones who wanted to change the game! To bad Anet listened to much. The playerbase has dropped like flies after HoT...

    Accept that the game isn't changing into a raid-centric game. This game is still very focused on it's open world and living world, and that hasn't changed. Raids are an attempt to fill the hole that Explorable mode dungeons were supposed to fill, challenging content. There was always intended to be exclusive and challenging content in this game. Too bad those dungeons weren't able to fulfill that role.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    For point 2.....imo, they should not tune down mechanics, just the dps checks and enrage timers. Does that mean having to dodge 15+ of Slothasor's Spore Release, yeah maybe, but people are not under a time constraint, plus it means practicing that mechanic more. Also, removing LIs and lessening rewards for this mode, so people don't just go the path of least resistance to get LIs, but can still learn the mechanics and see the storyline

    Tbf, most of the DPS checks are really low, VG I think is around 4k, per person in a 10 person squad. Gorseval, on the other hand, is a dps check. But on most other fights, like sloth, if people are dodging the mechanics anyway, enrage won't usually matter, it isn't insta-wipe, and you can still keep on plugging away. Enrage mode, however, does severely lower the possibility for recovery, if a mechanic is missed.

    I remember my guilds first Matt kill. We ended up going 5 min past the enrage timer.

    Hmm.......then I guess the guild runs I tried people couldn't even get to 4k? Because we couldn't even get to phase 2 more then 3 times of VG. And I know the necro was at 29k and me on my thief was around there too, but lower because I don't have min/max stats, just stuff in the general range, running mostly full zerk with some assassin. And when the raid leader posted the dps meter (which to my understanding, NO ONE is aloud to test your dps unless you do it yourself.) most everyone seemed to be around 14k, which I'm guessing not being higher was because of only being in the first phase? Now true, the reason why was because people kept failing the green circle. But the few times we did make it to the 3rd phase, it was after 4 minutes, so 4 minutes into the fight. Dps to low I'm guessing?

    First, you give consent to having your dps monitored, anytime you join a group or squad. The only way to never have it read, is not join a group, or go with groups/people that don't use them. I believe that this was how Anet phrased giving consent.

    To the point you raised, it seems your dps was at an OK level. So it seems that the issue is failed mechanics. For VG, the most common mechanic fails are, not managing greens (either through distort or having people go to the circle), people getting ported by blues (personal mechanic check, although can be distorted), lack of seeker control, slow CC (his CC channel ability really hurts), dps getting in front of VG and getting hit by his absurdly hard auto, and if kiting the boss for phase 2 and 3, not moving the boss fast enough causing greens to spawn in a danger zone.

    Something that I suggest to people, if you are having difficulty overcoming a boss, you or someone else, record a couple of runs. See what you can see, and focus on improving those areas.

    To the rest of the info about the fight, I knew most of they info already, guess just putting in the context you did made it seem clearer. Thanks, and hopefully I can try it again with the guild, or get into another one that can do it.

    About the DPS meters. Before I thought they were against the EULA (heck my brother got banned for 2 weeks for running in circles and then got banned for buying PoF (complicated story, but I learned some good info out of it, still sucks I wasted 90 bucks on a voided code.) and using them put you at risk to get banned. Then I think it was in April or May they said that personal DPS meters were ok, but not ones that recorded other peoples information. If it was just your numbers, then DPS meters were fine, but if it was recording another player(s) information then it was against the EULA. And I seem to remember the people on reddit who made those DPS meters, having to redesign them so it was within EULA parameters. I will try to find the info that Anet released on it, but its in the old forums. Hopefully a dev can help me out? :D

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 14

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    For point 2.....imo, they should not tune down mechanics, just the dps checks and enrage timers. Does that mean having to dodge 15+ of Slothasor's Spore Release, yeah maybe, but people are not under a time constraint, plus it means practicing that mechanic more. Also, removing LIs and lessening rewards for this mode, so people don't just go the path of least resistance to get LIs, but can still learn the mechanics and see the storyline

    Tbf, most of the DPS checks are really low, VG I think is around 4k, per person in a 10 person squad. Gorseval, on the other hand, is a dps check. But on most other fights, like sloth, if people are dodging the mechanics anyway, enrage won't usually matter, it isn't insta-wipe, and you can still keep on plugging away. Enrage mode, however, does severely lower the possibility for recovery, if a mechanic is missed.

    I remember my guilds first Matt kill. We ended up going 5 min past the enrage timer.

    Hmm.......then I guess the guild runs I tried people couldn't even get to 4k? Because we couldn't even get to phase 2 more then 3 times of VG. And I know the necro was at 29k and me on my thief was around there too, but lower because I don't have min/max stats, just stuff in the general range, running mostly full zerk with some assassin. And when the raid leader posted the dps meter (which to my understanding, NO ONE is aloud to test your dps unless you do it yourself.) most everyone seemed to be around 14k, which I'm guessing not being higher was because of only being in the first phase? Now true, the reason why was because people kept failing the green circle. But the few times we did make it to the 3rd phase, it was after 4 minutes, so 4 minutes into the fight. Dps to low I'm guessing?

    First, you give consent to having your dps monitored, anytime you join a group or squad. The only way to never have it read, is not join a group, or go with groups/people that don't use them. I believe that this was how Anet phrased giving consent.

    To the point you raised, it seems your dps was at an OK level. So it seems that the issue is failed mechanics. For VG, the most common mechanic fails are, not managing greens (either through distort or having people go to the circle), people getting ported by blues (personal mechanic check, although can be distorted), lack of seeker control, slow CC (his CC channel ability really hurts), dps getting in front of VG and getting hit by his absurdly hard auto, and if kiting the boss for phase 2 and 3, not moving the boss fast enough causing greens to spawn in a danger zone.

    Something that I suggest to people, if you are having difficulty overcoming a boss, you or someone else, record a couple of runs. See what you can see, and focus on improving those areas.

    To the rest of the info about the fight, I knew most of they info already, guess just putting in the context you did made it seem clearer. Thanks, and hopefully I can try it again with the guild, or get into another one that can do it.

    About the DPS meters. Before I thought they were against the EULA (heck my brother got banned for 2 weeks for running in circles and then got banned for buying PoF (complicated story, but I learned some good info out of it, still kitten I wasted 90 bucks on a voided code.) and using them put you at risk to get banned. Then I think it was in April or May they said that personal DPS meters were ok, but not ones that recorded other peoples information. If it was just your numbers, then DPS meters were fine, but if it was recording another player(s) information then it was against the EULA. And I seem to remember the people on reddit who made those DPS meters, having to redesign them so it was within EULA parameters. I will try to find the info that Anet released on it, but its in the old forums. Hopefully a dev can help me out? :D

    Chris Cleary has been clarifying on Reddit, I am not sure where his posts are right now.

    In essence, Anet didn't allow for DPS meters in the beginning. Eventually they relaxed their stance on it. Chris Cleary is typically in constant contact with the meter creators, and making sure that they are inline with what is allowed.

    What is allowed? iirc, only the reading of party/squad member dps, I believe that there may be more to it. Currently there is only one DPS meter that is allowed, that I am aware of. The other one, the dev was banned and is no longer developing it. He did pass along the source code, but I am unaware if it has been picked up by anyone else.

    Edit: As for VG, good luck, I know you'll get it in time :).

  • @Nafets.1238 said:
    I reported this and ask a moderator to close it. It has been specified that no "EZ MODE" raids will come, but they are focusing on problems such as "how can I gather more people to do this content".

    You reported this...on what grounds exactly?

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭

    @setdog.1592 said:
    i enjoy this game alot and lately ive been getting more and more interesting in doing fractals, then i learned about Challenge Mote fractals I was thinking, "gee i really need to finish my ascended gear so I can do these "Challenge Mode" level 100 Fractals
    I went online to check out a guide and found a video of a Guardian soloing a F100 challenge mote
    Cant tell you how much i feel that just screams "Broken Game",
    whats the challenge if "group content" can be soloed?

    For every 1 person that can "solo" a boss in fractals there's quite literally thousands more that have a hard time effectively using their dodge key.
    So just because you see a handful of talented individuals doesn't mean the content isn't any less challenging. To put it in real world perspective they're Tom Brady and the rest of the crowd is still playing JV Ball.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    For point 2.....imo, they should not tune down mechanics, just the dps checks and enrage timers. Does that mean having to dodge 15+ of Slothasor's Spore Release, yeah maybe, but people are not under a time constraint, plus it means practicing that mechanic more. Also, removing LIs and lessening rewards for this mode, so people don't just go the path of least resistance to get LIs, but can still learn the mechanics and see the storyline

    Tbf, most of the DPS checks are really low, VG I think is around 4k, per person in a 10 person squad. Gorseval, on the other hand, is a dps check. But on most other fights, like sloth, if people are dodging the mechanics anyway, enrage won't usually matter, it isn't insta-wipe, and you can still keep on plugging away. Enrage mode, however, does severely lower the possibility for recovery, if a mechanic is missed.

    I remember my guilds first Matt kill. We ended up going 5 min past the enrage timer.

    Hmm.......then I guess the guild runs I tried people couldn't even get to 4k? Because we couldn't even get to phase 2 more then 3 times of VG. And I know the necro was at 29k and me on my thief was around there too, but lower because I don't have min/max stats, just stuff in the general range, running mostly full zerk with some assassin. And when the raid leader posted the dps meter (which to my understanding, NO ONE is aloud to test your dps unless you do it yourself.) most everyone seemed to be around 14k, which I'm guessing not being higher was because of only being in the first phase? Now true, the reason why was because people kept failing the green circle. But the few times we did make it to the 3rd phase, it was after 4 minutes, so 4 minutes into the fight. Dps to low I'm guessing?

    First, you give consent to having your dps monitored, anytime you join a group or squad. The only way to never have it read, is not join a group, or go with groups/people that don't use them. I believe that this was how Anet phrased giving consent.

    To the point you raised, it seems your dps was at an OK level. So it seems that the issue is failed mechanics. For VG, the most common mechanic fails are, not managing greens (either through distort or having people go to the circle), people getting ported by blues (personal mechanic check, although can be distorted), lack of seeker control, slow CC (his CC channel ability really hurts), dps getting in front of VG and getting hit by his absurdly hard auto, and if kiting the boss for phase 2 and 3, not moving the boss fast enough causing greens to spawn in a danger zone.

    Something that I suggest to people, if you are having difficulty overcoming a boss, you or someone else, record a couple of runs. See what you can see, and focus on improving those areas.

    To the rest of the info about the fight, I knew most of they info already, guess just putting in the context you did made it seem clearer. Thanks, and hopefully I can try it again with the guild, or get into another one that can do it.

    About the DPS meters. Before I thought they were against the EULA (heck my brother got banned for 2 weeks for running in circles and then got banned for buying PoF (complicated story, but I learned some good info out of it, still kitten I wasted 90 bucks on a voided code.) and using them put you at risk to get banned. Then I think it was in April or May they said that personal DPS meters were ok, but not ones that recorded other peoples information. If it was just your numbers, then DPS meters were fine, but if it was recording another player(s) information then it was against the EULA. And I seem to remember the people on reddit who made those DPS meters, having to redesign them so it was within EULA parameters. I will try to find the info that Anet released on it, but its in the old forums. Hopefully a dev can help me out? :D

    Chris Cleary has been clarifying on Reddit, I am not sure where his posts are right now.

    In essence, Anet didn't allow for DPS meters in the beginning. Eventually they relaxed their stance on it. Chris Cleary is typically in constant contact with the meter creators, and making sure that they are inline with what is allowed.

    What is allowed? iirc, only the reading of party/squad member dps, I believe that there may be more to it. Currently there is only one DPS meter that is allowed, that I am aware of. The other one, the dev was banned and is no longer developing it. He did pass along the source code, but I am unaware if it has been picked up by anyone else.

    Edit: As for VG, good luck, I know you'll get it in time :).

    Ok, i'll check reddit a bit more, maybe I just read it a different way and misunderstood it. And I have killed VG multiple times, I have 15 LI atm, just the person I started to raid with, left the game and she hasn't come back in 8 months, so I have to start from the ground up. But i'll get there, just takes time......to long for me, but.....im a stubborn idiot B)

  • Zaxares.5419Zaxares.5419 Member ✭✭

    Thanks for the reply, Crystal. While I personally am disappointed to hear there won't be a "Story Mode" version of raids, I'll grant that the ultimate decision rests with you and ANet's vision of the experience you are trying to provide. Nonetheless, I hope you guys are aware that there's a lot of players out there who would love to be able to see the story and lore content of raids, because in LS3, it actually bled over in a negative way. For example, you run into Squad Leader Benett in Bloodstone Fen, who talks to you as if you've met him before. (And you have, but only if you've done raids.) For the non-raider, their experience was "Who the hell are you?", akin to the story dissonance that many players experienced going through the Personal Story after large chapters of it got cut out.

    Likewise, in later chapters the Eye of Janthir plays a notable role in the LS3 story, yet for players who have not raided (or never played GW1), you again have no idea what the Eye of Janthir is or why your character is talking like they know about it. This is extremely jarring and, frankly, a sign of poor storytelling. This is not something that any decent RPG should have, let alone a game the quality of Guild Wars 2 is.

    So again, I acknowledge that the decision is in your hands, but please just be aware that there are a lot of players out there who were confused as hell about aspects of the LS3 story, and that if you stand by your decision, this is something that must not be repeated in the future.

    For the record (for those who might think me a player who hasn't done raids and am just wanting stuff to be "easier"), I've cleared about half of the total bosses and am slowly working towards the others, so I do understand the perspectives of both sides. (I DO think that raids have separate issues about build/team comp diversity, but that's a discussion for another thread.)

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zaxares.5419 said:
    Nonetheless, I hope you guys are aware that there's a lot of players out there who would love to be able to see the story and lore content of raids, because in LS3, it actually bled over in a negative way. For example, you run into Squad Leader Benett in Bloodstone Fen, who talks to you as if you've met him before. (And you have, but only if you've done raids.) For the non-raider, their experience was "Who the kitten are you?", akin to the story dissonance that many players experienced going through the Personal Story after large chapters of it got cut out.

    This is actually false. This is the dialogue of Squad Leader Bennett:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad_Leader_Bennett

    He never once treats you as if you've met him before unless you actually did rescue him.
    If you rescued him he says:
    After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
    I've been thanking Dwayna you busted me out of that infernal place. If not for you, I'd be rotting in a ditch.

    However if you never rescued him, his lines are:
    After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
    I've been thanking Dwayna that the rescue team found me in time. If not for them, I'd be rotting in a ditch.

    A player speaking with him in Bloodstone Fen, that has never finished that part of the Raid, doesn't miss any of the story. It's just a Pact Squad Leader that got rescued by some "team" inside a place called Salvation Pass. There is no "who the kitten are you" feeling.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zaxares.5419 said:
    Nonetheless, I hope you guys are aware that there's a lot of players out there who would love to be able to see the story and lore content of raids, because in LS3, it actually bled over in a negative way. For example, you run into Squad Leader Benett in Bloodstone Fen, who talks to you as if you've met him before. (And you have, but only if you've done raids.) For the non-raider, their experience was "Who the kitten are you?", akin to the story dissonance that many players experienced going through the Personal Story after large chapters of it got cut out.

    This is actually false. This is the dialogue of Squad Leader Bennett:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad_Leader_Bennett

    He never once treats you as if you've met him before unless you actually did rescue him.
    If you rescued him he says:
    After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
    I've been thanking Dwayna you busted me out of that infernal place. If not for you, I'd be rotting in a ditch.

    However if you never rescued him, his lines are:
    After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
    I've been thanking Dwayna that the rescue team found me in time. If not for them, I'd be rotting in a ditch.

    A player speaking with him in Bloodstone Fen, that has never finished that part of the Raid, doesn't miss any of the story. It's just a Pact Squad Leader that got rescued by some "team" inside a place called Salvation Pass. There is no "who the kitten are you" feeling.

    Is it essential to take part in the story of the raids? Nah. But youre definitely missing out on some side story. And that is what most people criticize.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zaxares.5419 said:
    Nonetheless, I hope you guys are aware that there's a lot of players out there who would love to be able to see the story and lore content of raids, because in LS3, it actually bled over in a negative way. For example, you run into Squad Leader Benett in Bloodstone Fen, who talks to you as if you've met him before. (And you have, but only if you've done raids.) For the non-raider, their experience was "Who the kitten are you?", akin to the story dissonance that many players experienced going through the Personal Story after large chapters of it got cut out.

    This is actually false. This is the dialogue of Squad Leader Bennett:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad_Leader_Bennett

    He never once treats you as if you've met him before unless you actually did rescue him.
    If you rescued him he says:
    After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
    I've been thanking Dwayna you busted me out of that infernal place. If not for you, I'd be rotting in a ditch.

    However if you never rescued him, his lines are:
    After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
    I've been thanking Dwayna that the rescue team found me in time. If not for them, I'd be rotting in a ditch.

    A player speaking with him in Bloodstone Fen, that has never finished that part of the Raid, doesn't miss any of the story. It's just a Pact Squad Leader that got rescued by some "team" inside a place called Salvation Pass. There is no "who the kitten are you" feeling.

    Is it essential to take part in the story of the raids? Nah. But youre definitely missing out on some side story. And that is what most people criticize.

    I was responding to the argument that Squad Leader Bennett was treating us as if he knew us, but that's false because he has different dialogue based on your completion of Salvation Pass or not. You are missing a side story yes, nobody ever argued against that.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zaxares.5419 said:
    Nonetheless, I hope you guys are aware that there's a lot of players out there who would love to be able to see the story and lore content of raids, because in LS3, it actually bled over in a negative way. For example, you run into Squad Leader Benett in Bloodstone Fen, who talks to you as if you've met him before. (And you have, but only if you've done raids.) For the non-raider, their experience was "Who the kitten are you?", akin to the story dissonance that many players experienced going through the Personal Story after large chapters of it got cut out.

    This is actually false. This is the dialogue of Squad Leader Bennett:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Squad_Leader_Bennett

    He never once treats you as if you've met him before unless you actually did rescue him.
    If you rescued him he says:
    After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
    I've been thanking Dwayna you busted me out of that infernal place. If not for you, I'd be rotting in a ditch.

    However if you never rescued him, his lines are:
    After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.
    I've been thanking Dwayna that the rescue team found me in time. If not for them, I'd be rotting in a ditch.

    A player speaking with him in Bloodstone Fen, that has never finished that part of the Raid, doesn't miss any of the story. It's just a Pact Squad Leader that got rescued by some "team" inside a place called Salvation Pass. There is no "who the kitten are you" feeling.

    Is it essential to take part in the story of the raids? Nah. But youre definitely missing out on some side story. And that is what most people criticize.

    I was responding to the argument that Squad Leader Bennett was treating us as if he knew us, but that's false because he has different dialogue based on your completion of Salvation Pass or not. You are missing a side story yes, nobody ever argued against that.

    Well, you did say that a Player that didn't finish that part of the raid doesn't miss any of the story. Which is what I was responding to. Ofcourse, I should've read that as regarding his dialogue only, rather than in general, though. My mistake.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

    Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

    Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

    Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

    Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

    No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

    Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

    Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

    The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

    *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

    Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

    No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing.

    Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain.

    True.....but you can stink BEYOND in pvp and wvw and still get the same reward as elite players (mostly) just takes longer. Also, wvw and pvp don't really have any lore that has a effect on your personal storyline or any of the Living World storylines. (Unless you count the multiple dimensions theory) Also.....im very much glad this is a pay once and play forever game, wish SWTOR went that way...... and other games would as well. Plus just paying a xpac when it comes out over a sub per month? I love that.

  • My GW2 experience is very character and story driven. I don't have any interest in reading other people's guides to make my character the most powerful, high stats, etc etc. It isn't fun.

    I just want to experience story and places naturally. I'm not really interested in the raid prizes, so a more accessible version of a raid that just let's you play and maybe tosses some XP my way would have been fine.

    I miss dungeons.

  • FOX.3582FOX.3582 Member ✭✭

    @Zoltar MacRoth.7146 said:

    @Nafets.1238 said:
    I reported this and ask a moderator to close it. It has been specified that no "EZ MODE" raids will come, but they are focusing on problems such as "how can I gather more people to do this content".

    You reported this...on what grounds exactly?

    Because he is a casual scrub and should not be able to ask such kitten questions of course! /Sarcasm

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

    Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

    Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

    Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

    Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

    No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

    Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

    Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

    The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

    *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

    Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

    No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing.

    Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain.

    There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL.

  • Demeth.5816Demeth.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    While I do still love this game (have bought and intend to play PoF a lot), I have been "voting with my wallet" as I've seen others propose doing. I haven't brought it up before now because I don't believe for a second that losing the $50 or so a month I used to spend on gems has had a real financial impact on Anet.

    For me, it's about not wanting to personally support development in a direction I think is bad for the game (reasoning being split between poor raid direction and the utter disregard for large group activities like new guild missions). About a year and a half ago, I decided that if I wanted anything I wanted from the gem story, I would just use in game gold to purchase the gems for the foreseeable future. Again, it is more symbolic than about expecting any kind of reaction, but I think it is a valid response when you believe game direction has shifted into a destructive direction (which I believe it has).

    The game is finally rising and has no major issue anymore. You are overly dramatic.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    So, you can disagree with the idea of a story mode (and express why all you want), but the conversation itself is obviously still of interest to a lot of people.

    Sorry forgot to turn off reload every. It's a good add-on normally but apparently just like dps meters people can use information the wrong way.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    @setdog.1592 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    New forum, so I'll jump in with a new post on this.

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty. For the next release we'd like to get difficulty tuned more back in line with Spirit Vale. However, some of that original difficulty and magic is hard to re-capture. You never forget your first raid boss kill.

    i enjoy this game alot and lately ive been getting more and more interesting in doing fractals, then i learned about Challenge Mote fractals I was thinking, "gee i really need to finish my ascended gear so I can do these "Challenge Mode" level 100 Fractals

    I went online to check out a guide and found a video of a Guardian soloing a F100 challenge mote

    Cant tell you how much i feel that just screams "Broken Game",

    whats the challenge if "group content" can be soloed?

    Link the vid pls id like to see it. Also u can solo raids it means that one either the bosses are broken in a way or 2 rhat the player is just really good. In 100cm's case id say its the second.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    So, you can disagree with the idea of a story mode (and express why all you want), but the conversation itself is obviously still of interest to a lot of people.

    Sorry forgot to turn off reload every. It's a good add-on normally but apparently just like dps meters people can use information the wrong way.

    Btw neither does wow nor ff14 have a story mode and neither does Wildstar. I dont see why gw2 should have 1.

  • @cubed.2853 said:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    it's really sad that you think so...

    Why is it "sad"? Raids were specifically introduced in the game for this very reason.

    “Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.” — Ambrose Bierce.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

    Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

    Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

    Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

    Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

    No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

    Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

    Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

    The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

    *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

    Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

    No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing.

    Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain.

    There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL.

    You're even starting your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling.

    And no, it is a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I was willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't.

  • Angel.4581Angel.4581 Member ✭✭

    Dont know if it's been suggested before, but what about a Easy Mode Mote? Taking it WILL stop all Asc drops, all Li drops and Shards from raids until next reset - account wide. What you get for that is: no Enrage timer, 10%dmg increase and 10% dmg reduction on the entire team. To me it sounds like a fair tradeoff, if ppl want to do raid instance for the story :)

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Angel.4581 said:
    Dont know if it's been suggested before, but what about a Easy Mode Mote? Taking it WILL stop all Asc drops, all Li drops and Shards from raids until next reset - account wide. What you get for that is: no Enrage timer, 10%dmg increase and 10% dmg reduction on the entire team. To me it sounds like a fair tradeoff, if ppl want to do raid instance for the story :)

    Pretty sure that has been suggested multiple times.

    However, from Crystal (one of the Raid devs):
    "We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective."

    They won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time, and by not being designed to be accessible by everyone, from a skill perspective. That pretty much means no easy mote, because that would make it more accessible from a skill perspective.

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