Raid difficulty and challenge motes - Page 7 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Raid difficulty and challenge motes

1234579

Comments

  • Joji.7934Joji.7934 Member
    edited September 15

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    Easier modes on other MMOS never really trained players.Instead the players just stayed at a low difficulty level and literally "farmed" raids as there is nothing else to do in most MMO's apart from raiding. If VG was nerfed so that green circles dont down players when exploding then u would have the bad habit of completely ignoring them. Same with Sabetha flamewall or Matthias Sacrifice or Deimos mind crush etc etc. The only way people get better either in a game or in RL is try to do something much more difficult than your current skillset and improve with commitment. This is the only way to train.
    Most players in GW2 do T4 daylies every single day. Yet as soon as they hop into 99cm,100cm they die all over the place. Why is that? Because only by playing the cms do u actually train for cms. T4 fractals dont prepare u for that. Same with raids, if u wanna train u need to find/create a training group instead of hoping Anet will give a cookie.

    I completely agree with feanor.

    There is some truth to this, but not entirely correct.
    T4's is a great place to hone your player skills: Dodging, How to DPS (you will care about this if you raid), break bars, stacking for heals/boons, learning your class and class synergies, etc..
    For example, I've ran Arah hundreds of times before HoT, transitioning to raids was EZPZ; and fractals were a joke. And before I could do Arah efficiently, I had to run the other dungeons to get to that skill level to do Arah.

    But the other aspect is correct, doing T4 dailies doesn't qualify for killing raid bosses.

    Progressing on raid bosses and putting in 50+ will though.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭

    @Joji.7934 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    Easier modes on other MMOS never really trained players.Instead the players just stayed at a low difficulty level and literally "farmed" raids as there is nothing else to do in most MMO's apart from raiding. If VG was nerfed so that green circles dont down players when exploding then u would have the bad habit of completely ignoring them. Same with Sabetha flamewall or Matthias Sacrifice or Deimos mind crush etc etc. The only way people get better either in a game or in RL is try to do something much more difficult than your current skillset and improve with commitment. This is the only way to train.
    Most players in GW2 do T4 daylies every single day. Yet as soon as they hop into 99cm,100cm they die all over the place. Why is that? Because only by playing the cms do u actually train for cms. T4 fractals dont prepare u for that. Same with raids, if u wanna train u need to find/create a training group instead of hoping Anet will give a cookie.

    I completely agree with feanor.

    There is some truth to this, but not entirely correct.
    T4's is a great place to hone your player skills: Dodging, How to DPS (you will care about this if you raid), break bars, stacking for heals/boons, learning your class and class synergies, etc..

    T4s can only teach you basics. In general, every content only pushes your skill as far as it's own difficulty. Then you stop having an incentive to improve and you don't improve any more. But you can pick bad habits, no problem. For instance you can become too happy on the dodge button (I've been that). Similarly, T4s won't really teach you how to dps. You don't need to pull off high numbers. Sure, it makes things smoother and easier, but you can manage just fine without practising rotations. I've been that, too. The thing is, these bad habits are not a problem in the easy content because you pull it off anyway. They only become a problem once move to more challenging one. Raiding pushed my skills so much further. It's not boasting, I don't think of myself as a very good player. I'm decent, but I'm nowhere near the standards of qT or SC. It's just facts. Fractals didn't prepare me for raiding. Only actual raiding did. Maybe fractal CMs could work as a stepping stone. But the average t4 daily pug player will have just the same struggles on CMs as on actual raids.

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 15

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

    Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

    Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

    Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

    Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

    No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

    Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

    Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

    The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

    *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

    Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

    No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing.

    Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain.

    There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL.

    You're even starting your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling.

    And no, it is a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I was willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't.

    Well it's simple, any content without meaningful rewards will not be played. Look, if it's easier to get stuff in open world content than in possible easy raids then adding easier raids won't solve any of the current issues and nobody will play them more than once for the scenery/experience. There needs to be some progression system, but the early steps HAVE to be rewarding, something that Anet's current team doesn't understand at all. Look at early fractals, rewards feel like an insult, when the original team got it perfectly, with dungeon tokens in abundance and easily obtained decent but not BiS gear.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

    Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

    Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

    Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

    Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

    No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

    Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

    Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

    The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

    *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

    Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

    No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing.

    Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain.

    There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL.

    You're even starting your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling.

    And no, it is a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I was willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't.

    Well it's simple, any content without meaningful rewards will not be played. Look, if it's easier to get stuff in open world content than in possible easy raids then adding easier raids won't solve any of the current issues and nobody will play them more than once for the scenery/experience. There needs to be some progression system, but the early steps HAVE to be rewarding, something that Anet's current team doesn't understand at all. Look at early fractals, rewards feel like an insult, when the original team got it perfectly, with dungeon tokens in abundance and easily obtained decent but not BiS gear.

    Adding easier raids won't solve any "issues" in any case. If anything, what you have in mind will only create actual issues, like making their original, intended difficulty meaningless. Why would you risk failing if you could slack and get the rewards anyway in less time? Mind you, you're not asking for some symbolic rewards here, you feel insulted by the fact you don't get in the faceroll low-tier fractals rewards comparable to the higher tiers. You don't want to enjoy content, you want to get every reward the game has to offer with as little effort as possible. You shouldn't. It would make the game boring very, very fast.

  • I disagree with a lot of what you post. Raids are such a small portion of the game and are not required or needed to play or enjoy any aspect of gw2. They were designed as a way of delivering much needed challenging content to the end game. Like anything in this world, it will not please everybody.

    As for builds, you can play whatever build you want. People like meta builds because they are efficient and designed to beat boss encounters. But if you don't like them, find a group of like minded individuals and plug away. It's not anets job to force people to play in groups.

    Raids really aren't that hard. They just don't deliver the instant gratification some players are accustomed to. They require effort, dedication and skill. But that's what makes them so fun because they are a challenge.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Joji.7934 said:

    @zoomborg.9462 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    Easier modes on other MMOS never really trained players.Instead the players just stayed at a low difficulty level and literally "farmed" raids as there is nothing else to do in most MMO's apart from raiding. If VG was nerfed so that green circles dont down players when exploding then u would have the bad habit of completely ignoring them. Same with Sabetha flamewall or Matthias Sacrifice or Deimos mind crush etc etc. The only way people get better either in a game or in RL is try to do something much more difficult than your current skillset and improve with commitment. This is the only way to train.
    Most players in GW2 do T4 daylies every single day. Yet as soon as they hop into 99cm,100cm they die all over the place. Why is that? Because only by playing the cms do u actually train for cms. T4 fractals dont prepare u for that. Same with raids, if u wanna train u need to find/create a training group instead of hoping Anet will give a cookie.

    I completely agree with feanor.

    There is some truth to this, but not entirely correct.
    T4's is a great place to hone your player skills: Dodging, How to DPS (you will care about this if you raid), break bars, stacking for heals/boons, learning your class and class synergies, etc..

    T4s can only teach you basics. In general, every content only pushes your skill as far as it's own difficulty. Then you stop having an incentive to improve and you don't improve any more. But you can pick bad habits, no problem. For instance you can become too happy on the dodge button (I've been that). Similarly, T4s won't really teach you how to dps. You don't need to pull off high numbers. Sure, it makes things smoother and easier, but you can manage just fine without practising rotations. I've been that, too. The thing is, these bad habits are not a problem in the easy content because you pull it off anyway. They only become a problem once move to more challenging one. Raiding pushed my skills so much further. It's not boasting, I don't think of myself as a very good player. I'm decent, but I'm nowhere near the standards of qT or SC. It's just facts. Fractals didn't prepare me for raiding. Only actual raiding did. Maybe fractal CMs could work as a stepping stone. But the average t4 daily pug player will have just the same struggles on CMs as on actual raids.

    Tl;dr t4s should really just be t3s

  • SaraGreen.2345SaraGreen.2345 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17

    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    If you wanna keep a hard raid difficulty that's fine. I would rather elitist stay in it and avoid normal players.
    Better yet give the elitist their own server most of the population wants nothing to do with them.

    As we have seen in wow and other mmos elitism bring toxicity and destroys a games community by spreading its plague upon other game modes that same elitism is why most of us play gw2 instead of other toxic mmos.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    If you wanna keep a hard raid difficulty that's fine. I would rather elitist stay in it and avoid normal players.
    Better yet give the elitist their own server most of the population wants nothing to do with them.

    As we have seen in wow and other mmos elitism bring toxicity and destroys a games community by spreading its plague upon other game modes that same elitism is why most of us play gw2 instead of other toxic mmos.

    So...anyone who can clear a raid is an elitist? I mean pretty much anyone who tries, casual or not can clear raids at this point, they just don't wanna try. Raids arent that hard, just people blowing it out of proportion.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    I agree with you, main story should not be gated. However, raids in this game are side story's (meaning that they are not telling the story of the PC). There are some places where NPC's will reference that you were in the Raid, if you completed the content, but if you haven't, it won't reference you, the PC, being there.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.

    This would defeat the purpose of the raids. We already had dungeons for that, what we lacked - and what raids were designed as - is actually challenging content.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    I agree with you, main story should not be gated. However, raids in this game are side story's (meaning that they are not telling the story of the PC). There are some places where NPC's will reference that you were in the Raid, if you completed the content, but if you haven't, it won't reference you, the PC, being there.

    This point you keep bringing up - not referencing the player directly unless they chose to go there - is completely irrelevant to whether or not the story is something players would be interested in experiencing. A couple of sentences of changed dialogue do not justify segmenting story the way they did.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    I agree with you, main story should not be gated. However, raids in this game are side story's (meaning that they are not telling the story of the PC). There are some places where NPC's will reference that you were in the Raid, if you completed the content, but if you haven't, it won't reference you, the PC, being there.

    This point you keep bringing up - not referencing the player directly unless they chose to go there - is completely irrelevant to whether or not the story is something players would be interested in experiencing. A couple of sentences of changed dialogue do not justify segmenting story the way they did.

    I understand that. Her comment wasn't about whether the story was interesting, it was about main story shouldn't be hidden behind raids, that is what I was replying to.

    Interesting or not, side story is still side story, and that is perfectly acceptable to be exclusionary.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.

    This would defeat the purpose of the raids. We already had dungeons for that, what we lacked - and what raids were designed as - is actually challenging content.

    The point is that they could still accomplish that purpose if some kind of story mode existed. No one is advocating for the removal of challenge.

    In fact, I (and others) believe that they could accomplish that goal even better if story or easier modes existed. As it stands, raid fights cannot be tuned to an extreme challenge or there truly would be nearly no one in them. Multiple difficulty modes allow for bringing greater challenge into the game. So, if the purpose is actual challenging content (which raids don't really provide to many raiders in their current form, btw), then the first logical step is the implementation of tiered difficulties/story motes.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    I agree with you, main story should not be gated. However, raids in this game are side story's (meaning that they are not telling the story of the PC). There are some places where NPC's will reference that you were in the Raid, if you completed the content, but if you haven't, it won't reference you, the PC, being there.

    This point you keep bringing up - not referencing the player directly unless they chose to go there - is completely irrelevant to whether or not the story is something players would be interested in experiencing. A couple of sentences of changed dialogue do not justify segmenting story the way they did.

    I understand that. Her comment wasn't about whether the story was interesting, it was about main story shouldn't be hidden behind raids, that is what I was replying to.

    Interesting or not, side story is still side story.

    Again, if the story involves events/lore/etc inTyria or the mists, it is not a side story in a game like this (MMOs are not designed around linear storytelling). Whether or not the story is interesting is the only thing that matters.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    I agree with you, main story should not be gated. However, raids in this game are side story's (meaning that they are not telling the story of the PC). There are some places where NPC's will reference that you were in the Raid, if you completed the content, but if you haven't, it won't reference you, the PC, being there.

    This point you keep bringing up - not referencing the player directly unless they chose to go there - is completely irrelevant to whether or not the story is something players would be interested in experiencing. A couple of sentences of changed dialogue do not justify segmenting story the way they did.

    I understand that. Her comment wasn't about whether the story was interesting, it was about main story shouldn't be hidden behind raids, that is what I was replying to.

    Interesting or not, side story is still side story.

    Again, if the story involves events/lore/etc inTyria or the mists, it is not a side story in a game like this (MMOs are not designed around linear storytelling). Whether or not the story is interesting is the only thing that matters.

    If the story does not involve the Commander, it is not considered a main story point in this game. For example, they could have just put an NPC in the Priory area, that mentioned that they found Saul, for all of the effect that it has on the Commander (PC). Instead, they provided a way for the player to experience that content, and because of that challenge/difficulty, is able to effectively tell that story. Without that challenge/difficulty, the effect of the story is neutered. That same story you hold on a pedestal.

    Edit: To add, with BoP and it's inclusion of Challenge Motes, they essentially said, "Here is your Story Mode."

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    I agree with you, main story should not be gated. However, raids in this game are side story's (meaning that they are not telling the story of the PC). There are some places where NPC's will reference that you were in the Raid, if you completed the content, but if you haven't, it won't reference you, the PC, being there.

    This point you keep bringing up - not referencing the player directly unless they chose to go there - is completely irrelevant to whether or not the story is something players would be interested in experiencing. A couple of sentences of changed dialogue do not justify segmenting story the way they did.

    I understand that. Her comment wasn't about whether the story was interesting, it was about main story shouldn't be hidden behind raids, that is what I was replying to.

    Interesting or not, side story is still side story.

    Again, if the story involves events/lore/etc inTyria or the mists, it is not a side story in a game like this (MMOs are not designed around linear storytelling). Whether or not the story is interesting is the only thing that matters.

    If the story does not involve the Commander, it is not considered a main story point in this game. For example, they could have just put an NPC in the Priory area, that mentioned that they found Saul, for all of the effect that it has on the Commander (PC). Instead, they provided a way for the player to experience that content, and because of that challenge/difficulty, is able to effectively tell that story. Without that challenge/difficulty, the effect of the story is neutered. That same story you hold on a pedestal.

    If the story doesn't involve the commander/pact/whatever directly, you may not consider it a main story point, but that isn't true of most players.

    MMOs are not designed for linear story telling. It really is that simple. They are about creating a full and living world in which the player interacts and influences events. The ideas of "main" and "side" stories (which are both semantic and subjective terms, btw) don't really have meaning here.

    As to the challenge being part of the story, I can agree. However, because of the huge disparity between builds and playstyles, along with varied levels of player skill, challenge itself is subjective. Reality is, most harder core raiders don't find the current raid content very challenging. If anything, multiple difficulty modes (including some kind of story mode) would allow the developers to add actual challenge into the raid encounters.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 17

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.
    I do not think any main story should be gated so over 70 percent or more of the player base will never view it really a design flaw on a nets part.

    I agree with you, main story should not be gated. However, raids in this game are side story's (meaning that they are not telling the story of the PC). There are some places where NPC's will reference that you were in the Raid, if you completed the content, but if you haven't, it won't reference you, the PC, being there.

    This point you keep bringing up - not referencing the player directly unless they chose to go there - is completely irrelevant to whether or not the story is something players would be interested in experiencing. A couple of sentences of changed dialogue do not justify segmenting story the way they did.

    I understand that. Her comment wasn't about whether the story was interesting, it was about main story shouldn't be hidden behind raids, that is what I was replying to.

    Interesting or not, side story is still side story.

    Again, if the story involves events/lore/etc inTyria or the mists, it is not a side story in a game like this (MMOs are not designed around linear storytelling). Whether or not the story is interesting is the only thing that matters.

    If the story does not involve the Commander, it is not considered a main story point in this game. For example, they could have just put an NPC in the Priory area, that mentioned that they found Saul, for all of the effect that it has on the Commander (PC). Instead, they provided a way for the player to experience that content, and because of that challenge/difficulty, is able to effectively tell that story. Without that challenge/difficulty, the effect of the story is neutered. That same story you hold on a pedestal.

    If the story doesn't involve the commander/pact/whatever directly, you may not consider it a main story point, but that isn't true of most players.

    MMOs are not designed for linear story telling. It really is that simple. They are about creating a full and living world in which the player interacts and influences events. The ideas of "main" and "side" stories (which are both semantic and subjective terms, btw) don't really have meaning here.

    As to the challenge being part of the story, I can agree. However, because of the huge disparity between builds and playstyles, along with varied levels of player skill, challenge itself is subjective. Reality is, most harder core raiders don't find the current raid content very challenging. If anything, multiple difficulty modes (including some kind of story mode) would allow the developers to add actual challenge into the raid encounters.

    Even if it isn't true for any players, it is true of the way that Anet is telling the story.

    I would say that people that use off builds/playstyles could have a more difficult time, especifically if there is no one in the party able to handle specific mechanics, ie - no boon strip on VG, or condi damage. But the different fights should encourage adjusting your build to the fight. It doesn't have to be the most efficient, but so long as you can play it and handle the mechanics, you'll be fine. And in those instances, the effect of that story will be more impactful, because of the greater challenge overcome. Where as, people who go for the Most Efficient Tactics Available route, potentially have it easier and thus a less impactful effect of the story.

    As for the different difficulty modes, I don't argue that it would allow them to tune to a greater degree, but that would require more time or people, of which they shouldn't receive either. I wouldn't want to have to wait more than 9 months between raid releases, nor should they hire more people for raids, those should go towards other areas of the game, WvW, PvP, or even expac or LW teams. Help those teams be able to produce more content, at a higher quality.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.

    This would defeat the purpose of the raids. We already had dungeons for that, what we lacked - and what raids were designed as - is actually challenging content.

    The point is that they could still accomplish that purpose if some kind of story mode existed. No one is advocating for the removal of challenge.

    In fact, I (and others) believe that they could accomplish that goal even better if story or easier modes existed. As it stands, raid fights cannot be tuned to an extreme challenge or there truly would be nearly no one in them. Multiple difficulty modes allow for bringing greater challenge into the game. So, if the purpose is actual challenging content (which raids don't really provide to many raiders in their current form, btw), then the first logical step is the implementation of tiered difficulties/story motes.

    If raids fail to provide challenge, the first logical step would be implementing motes that increase the challenge rather than ones which reduce it. I wonder what they should be called? Challenge motes maybe? Hmm, wait, where have I heard that...?

    Sarcasm aside, story mode would overlap difficulty with already existing content. That's the difference. You can't expect raids to be leaps and bounds more difficult than anything else in the game just so they target that small part of the raiders which find no challenge at all in current raids. Content difficulty should be tiered, like it actually is. Raids are a step higher than what we had before and raid CMs are a step higher yet. It's all good.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @SaraGreen.2345 said:
    I would have have liked to see slightly easier raid difficulty so players can get the story and lore and enjoy encounters in random lfg setting.

    This would defeat the purpose of the raids. We already had dungeons for that, what we lacked - and what raids were designed as - is actually challenging content.

    The point is that they could still accomplish that purpose if some kind of story mode existed. No one is advocating for the removal of challenge.

    In fact, I (and others) believe that they could accomplish that goal even better if story or easier modes existed. As it stands, raid fights cannot be tuned to an extreme challenge or there truly would be nearly no one in them. Multiple difficulty modes allow for bringing greater challenge into the game. So, if the purpose is actual challenging content (which raids don't really provide to many raiders in their current form, btw), then the first logical step is the implementation of tiered difficulties/story motes.

    Raids are only supposed to be challenging content, within the scope of the game, and they are. Not sure why the current 2 Fractal CM's are more mechanically challenging, but there it is.

  • Murdock.6547Murdock.6547 Member ✭✭✭

    I would die laughing tbh.

  • Fluffy.1932Fluffy.1932 Member ✭✭

    I started raiding because I wanted to experience it. My group spent 4 months wiping to VG. The reason I kept coming back wasn't because of the challenge, it was because I had to beat VG in order to experience the rest of the raid. In other words the story of the raid was the hook that got me into raiding. If there had been a story mode available, I probably would have just done that and called it a day. Then I wouldn't have gotten into this content that is now my favorite content in the game.

    Not having a story mode is critical because experiencing the story is one of the main hooks that gets new people to start raiding. Since raids are more difficult than the other content of this game, there tends to be a lot of growing pains when developing the skills necessary to raid successfully, and so there needs to be additional motivation besides loot that is attractive to people who currently don't raid. Story is the best of this because it simultaneously improves the experience for everyone already raiding as well.

    The way Anet has implemented story in raids has been great. They have been side stories that don't directly affect the main plot, but are tied close enough to it that people are still interested in what's going on. It has been about as good as you can get with making people interested enough to try raiding when they might not otherwise, and not making people that don't raid miss important details.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭

    Can't upvote this enough. Very well said and very true.

  • IonoI.3956IonoI.3956 Member ✭✭

    Any story in raids should be accessible in some playable (important word) format to players of many different skill levels. This transcends the hard/easy argument - it is simply a matter of presenting the same story to all players interested in it.

    it is. I see multiple people in lfg advertising cleared instances that anyone can explore. Also a big part of the reason why the raid story is so interesting is because the bosses are tough, which adds weight and value to the story. If they make them easier then it will water down the story.

    Raids are playable by many different skill levels. there is a huge gap between the best players and what it takes to simple be in a raiding team that gets kills. Are you saying any new player should be able to do raids as soon as they make their account before even doing dungeons and fractals? The raid lore is just side stories that aren't really important for the living world main story.

    The primary purpose of raids should always be to provide challenging content to those players looking for it.

    they seem to be doing pretty well with that so far. There is room for more since many groups easily do all challenge modes, but it does take practice so it's good enough i think.

    There needs to be a way that players who are not interested in conforming to a meta or spending hours min-maxing can still enjoy raids without having to add to their frustration levels.

    There is. just join a guild or join one of the many pugs who don't care what you run as long as you do enough to not be dead weight.

    Even at their lowest difficulty level, raids should provide a challenge above what you would find in a T1 or T2 fractal (the first three encounters in wing 4 feel about right, imo).

    That's what the purpose of dungeons and fractals is - to be the mid level pve that new players need to build up to raid tier. Think of raids as part of the pve game mode, not as a game mode on their own. It's better if they focus on making completely new raids instead of spending more time on existing ones to make easy modes.

    So seems like everything you're asking for is already in the game :)

  • @Lonami.2987 said:
    Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

    This comment makes me laugh. I don't think anyone is asking for content that is literally impossible for anyone to be good at. What people who like raids like is that they are hard to learn, but with effort and practice you can become good at them

  • Kal Bhairav.6589Kal Bhairav.6589 Member ✭✭
    edited September 17

    My personal experience is not too good with finding group as well. When i started raid, I joined training guild. We trained on VG week in.. week out. Every week there were newer people joining the guild and I was running training with them. When I asked when do i get to run with kill group, their answer was when people are ready.
    I ran whole month like that and still not 1 kill. Couldn't join any other kill group 'coz i had no LI. Eventually, i left the guild.
    Now, i can kill all the bosses just fine, got my legendary armor. I even tank all of them but I didn't learn from anyone but youtube. I just lied about exp and started sneaking into group and start getting into group for kill.
    I know, this sucks but I have no real friend who plays this game and nobody got months to learn 1 boss. At the end, this is just a game.
    I do not agree on making raid easier because it actually already is. Everything is scripted, how hard can that be. LOL
    But, group finding (lfg) definitely needs improvement. my 2 censt :)
    don't flame me. English is not my primary language.

  • Demeth.5816Demeth.5816 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Lonami.2987 said:
    Without difficulty modes, we'll never get a really hard boss that can't be facerolled by hardcores. Let that sink in.

    This comment makes me laugh. I don't think anyone is asking for content that is literally impossible for anyone to be good at. What people who like raids like is that they are hard to learn, but with effort and practice you can become good at them

    Seing hardcore raiders saying that its too easy when you master the encounters makes me laugh. Its perfect the way it is. Hard when you learn, "easy" when mastered

  • Jahroots.6791Jahroots.6791 Member ✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

    Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

    You were going really well up until this point. It's needless hyperbole.

    There's players who are old. Some are disabled. Others have manky hardware and internet connections. Maybe all three. It's very tempting to dismiss every complaint as coming from a place of laziness, but in truth most people want to play at a level of difficulty that is challenging and/or engaging for them.

    It's hard to accept this when you've reached a certain level of skill, but for a lot of players just beating Bloomhunger on T3 is a phenomenal task. Raids are simply beyond them, and at the current level of difficulty, will always be. And I think PVE group content is simply too sparse to exclude so many.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jahroots.6791 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    But a lot of players don't think the game should be challenging period. That they shouldn't have to worry about actually being good at the game or putting up an effort for anything. They want everything to be like the world boss train where it's this big sloosh of nothing and no effort and easy loot. These people shouldn't be listened to catered to.

    Easy mode would be a disastrous mistake. It would drain all of the appeal and mystique of raiding and fracture the community built up around them. I'm really happy with Arenanet's response on this.

    You were going really well up until this point. It's needless hyperbole.

    There's players who are old. Some are disabled. Others have manky hardware and internet connections. Maybe all three. It's very tempting to dismiss every complaint as coming from a place of laziness, but in truth most people want to play at a level of difficulty that is challenging and/or engaging for them.

    It's hard to accept this when you've reached a certain level of skill, but for a lot of players just beating Bloomhunger on T3 is a phenomenal task. Raids are simply beyond them, and at the current level of difficulty, will always be. And I think PVE group content is simply too sparse to exclude so many.

    Don't even start with the victimization game with 'old' and 'disabled' players. Even excluding the counter-point that Arenanet shouldn't need to cater to the 'least capable' players who struggle the hardest with GW2 simply leveling up, there are several instances of said players that overcome whatever ails them to clear the content. I don't even have to look that hard into Youtube to find a video of a Gamer playing CSGO competently with one hand since his other arm is paralyzed.

    The only thing stopping would-be raiders from raiding is willpower and patience. The willpower to keep trying encounters, and the patience to accept failure can happen, that a kill might not happen that day.

  • Jahroots.6791Jahroots.6791 Member ✭✭

    Mmm-hmm. There's also several instances where people simply stopped playing. But that ain't even the point, man.

    Truthfully, whats important is that we shouldn't discount complaints about raid difficulty as lazy players who want everything for no effort. It's too dismissive and hyperbolic. It's a new forum. Let's at least try to have civil, objective discussions without the snarkiness.

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 18

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:

    @Rennie.6750 said:

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

    Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

    Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

    Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

    Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

    No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

    Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

    Oh yeah why should they cater to people who pay their wages and keep the publisher happy with a steady revenue! How dare they requesting their money's worth!

    The thing is, raids are expensive content to develop, yet the raiding population in games never exceeds 2-3% for the highest difficulties. It's often in the 1-2% in fact, so everyone is funding this farce and nobody gets to play it except a few chosen ones

    *No one gets to play it except the people that want to play it. ... Fixed.

    Then you should read this thread more carefully. There are many people willing to play raids, just not in their current format. Again they're paying for it so why would an arbitrary decisions like "muh vision for raidz" would be anything but an insult or some sort of mockery?

    No, in fact they aren't willing to play raids. If they were willing, they would. They are willing to get the rewards, but that's not the same thing.

    Also the payment argument is plain weak. I'm paying for this game as well and I'm not willing to touch PvP with a 10-foot pole. Does it mean ANet should just remove PvP from the game immediately? Or should they introduce "story mode" perhaps? Just because you're paying for the game doesn't mean ALL of its features should be catering to your own personal tastes. It's not possible and it's not necessary. I'm getting plenty of value for my money and so are the people who complain about their own choice not to play raids. As evidenced by the fact they are still around and play the game. And are invested enough in it to come on the forums and complain.

    There is no need for a story mode pvp, you can get all of the pvp rewards without ever killing another player at all and be the worst player in the world. But anyway this is a really moot argument. Not playing raids isn't a choice for many, it's a fact. The requirements are absurdly high; pvp lets you queue with a lvl 3 character and you get the full experience/rewards from it. There's also an automated matchmaking which means that the lfg pvp groups have to deal with the people they get not their ideal party comp, that helps a lot making pvp much more accessible. Yes you will kitten and fail initially but with time you'll learn and get better, because no party can say "no, you're not joining". On the other hand, raiding groups are too selective for most players to ever experience raids without begging guild members to teach you the thing. And if you're not in a guild, you're SOL.

    You're even starting your reply with talk about rewards. Like I said, it's not the same thing. The complaining people aren't concerned about playing the content, they're concerned about getting the rewards. And they're using the payment as an argument? Appalling.

    And no, it is a choice. Each and every one of us has the very same option to click on the party interface, create a raid squad and enter the instance. What you can't do as easily is get the rewards. But let me tell you a secret - it wasn't easy for us active raiders either. I was in the same situation, however I was willing to raid. So I did. I sought guilds, I trained and I sucked. Then I kept training and I sucked less. Then I began pugging and eventually I found my place in a guild static. Everyone can do it. It doesn't take any special skill. It only takes time and effort. And whether or not you want to invest them in raiding is a choice which is entirely up to you. Both answers are equally valid. Complaining about the answer you gave isn't.

    Well it's simple, any content without meaningful rewards will not be played. Look, if it's easier to get stuff in open world content than in possible easy raids then adding easier raids won't solve any of the current issues and nobody will play them more than once for the scenery/experience. There needs to be some progression system, but the early steps HAVE to be rewarding, something that Anet's current team doesn't understand at all. Look at early fractals, rewards feel like an insult, when the original team got it perfectly, with dungeon tokens in abundance and easily obtained decent but not BiS gear.

    Adding easier raids won't solve any "issues" in any case. If anything, what you have in mind will only create actual issues, like making their original, intended difficulty meaningless. Why would you risk failing if you could slack and get the rewards anyway in less time? Mind you, you're not asking for some symbolic rewards here, you feel insulted by the fact you don't get in the faceroll low-tier fractals rewards comparable to the higher tiers. You don't want to enjoy content, you want to get every reward the game has to offer with as little effort as possible. You shouldn't. It would make the game boring very, very fast.

    That's not my point, my point is that there needs to be rewards in order for things to be played. Rewards like dungeons make t1 fractals completely worthless except as a boring and uninteresting slow grind for progression. And please, difficulty is completely irrelevant. I got more ascendant recipes playing two meta events in HoT than in a month of fractals (And I still have half my chest keys available...), and I get more money running around clicking on resources nodes than from playing quite a lot of "endgame" content, so in this game, difficulty is already completely irrelevant in terms of rewards. Denying that there is no difficulty/reward balance in this game is delusional, as the devs very much embraces this kind of design already. Seriously. I got an ascended backpacks clicking on kitten for 4-5h tops this week (5 days, 1h a day collecting pearls and doing hearts) in siren's landing. All this talk about difficulty is really silly.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 18

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    See, that's the thing. If you want a lower difficulty, you can already play it. Dungeons, low-tier fractals, take your pick.

    Anything new? I thought not. Anet hasn't added new instanced group content for the general population in years, and the rewards are intentionally garbage in all of it.

    If you want a higher difficulty, there's only raids. If it was only about the challenge, these topics wouldn't exist. It's about the rewards. And >wanting the same rewards with less to no effort is exactly laziness. And greed.

    Turns out making content the devs explicitly want to be inaccessible to most of the playerbase (as one dev has so carelessly stated outright) the only source for legendary armor in PVE makes people angry, who could have ever forseen such a thing?

    (also don't get so high and mighty, if Anet gutted raid rewards like they did dungeons they'd be dead within the day)

  • Jahroots.6791Jahroots.6791 Member ✭✭

    What's strange is that despite Crystal's post it still feels like the community in this sub-forum is still being defensive and trying to create an atmosphere where criticism isn't welcome.

    There's something almost cult-like about the predictable responses to posts you should all be ignoring at this point. *shudders

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.