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Raid difficulty and challenge motes

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  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @meeflak.9714 said:
    Arenanet had stated from the start what they plan to do with raids. They were made to give the community something challenging and engaging to enjoy. It has been said that they don't want to take time to make different tiers because it will take away from thier time they have to design new engaging raid content. Why do you expect them to cater to your requests? Why do they have to take time away from development of new mechanics, for those that want to play it? Your asking them to put a stop on their goals to cater to you

    Do raider's have to run fractals .. no... Do they if they want to experience the lore ? Or get ad infinitum? Yes

    Do raider's have to play PvP? No . Do they have to if they want Ascension ? Yes

    Do raider's have to play WvW? No. Do they have to if they want the the armor and back piece? Yes

    Does the community have to raid? No . Do they if they want to experience the lore and get legendary armor ? Yes.

    No one Is forced to do anything in this game. If a player wants something from a certain aspect of the game. It's their responsibility to seek it out... I'll never play WvW again I'm sure. Imnot upset I'll never get their specific skins. Those players put the into that game mode to receive it's payouts. That's all raids ask of you . If you want to be included. Then include yourself, but don't expect arenanet to cater to you because you don't want to go through with getting into the content the way it was designed

    Edit: why do I get so many thumbs down for explaining it the way I see it.. I'm sorry if you don't like my stance, we disagree, sure. But don't you think it's best to just see the magic In raids and give them a shot the way arenanet intended it?

    I don't think there is lore in pvp and wvw? And if there is.....hold that thought. In fractals people can still experience the lore with t1 fractals, they don't need to do t4 fractals to get lore. See for lore reasons, pvp, wvw and fractal newbs who stink at the game can STILL experience the lore by doing easy versions of them. Do they give the same rewards as the harder tiers of these content? Nope. So why can't raids be the same way?

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    ....This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

    I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids. Other games have at least a gear score, so you at least know that that person was invested enough to gear up (I would assume, I didn't play those games). This game, you can have random people showing up in whatever they happen to have (ex - wearing soldiers stats while trying to fill a dps role, or wearing rare/exotics of differing stats). The only way groups have of determining someone's willingness to invest, is in the number of LI that others have accrued (or any other arbitrary means, like the AP requirements in prev dungeon running days). Whether right or wrong, it is the method that the community adopted, to at least filter out those that were not invested.

    Something to consider about training runs, they can end up being like auditions. The reason for this is because a lot of the experienced community gives back by helping to run these. You do a training run, even if it gets nowhere, you can still get noticed and invited to a guild. I understand if you don't want to do them, I refused to do them myself, but it took me a much longer time to get into raiding, than it had to.

    I understand what your saying, and for investing into harder content, yes. But, for example, in SWTOR (Star Wars: The Old Republic) they have 3 tiers of difficulty for raids, Story Mode (SM), Veteran Mode (VT) (former Hard Mode HM), and Master Mode (MM) (former Nightmare NIM). The story modes have min req gear ratings, but they are not high, plus they have daily rotating group finder raids, that give a bolster up to the avg gear rating for that raid. So people who might be a bit under geared, or who don't have time to regrind gear can still experience the storyline, for all the raids and on every character. Now VT? Also a gear rating, but no bolster, better rewards, extra mechanics, but still the same storyline. And MM is just worse. Imo, the "normal" of raids in GW2, is the VT mode from SWTOR, it gates people and prevents them from seeing the storyline. But SM does NOT give the same rewards as VT. You want those rewards, go gear up and learn the fights in VT. But if you just want to do the storyline and get some basic rewards, you still have easy story mode to do. Just wish Anet would do the same thing. ie: easier raids so people can see the storyline, but less or next to no rewards, unless they do it normally or in CM.

    One difference between SWTOR's Operations (read: Raids) and GW2's Raids. Operations are the main endgame for SWTOR, the main story always leads to them. In that world it makes sense for the Operations to offer multiple difficulties.

    Raids are not the main endgame for GW2, there is nothing in GW2 that leads you to Raids, story-wise. If you had to go into a raid to find out the culmination of the Heart of Thorns story, and I would agree, there should be multiple difficulty levels. The delivery of the main story in this game, is open world and personal instances. Raids only exist in this game for those that wanted a group (larger than 5) challenge.

    With.....storyline content that effected the personal storyline in LS3. And look at how many people are complaining about how there are to many plot holes showing up out of no where in LS3. (Not saying its a extremely large population, but I see it a lot.)

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Lakemine.3014 said:
    . So why can't raids be the same way?

    Differing design philosophies. Fractals were created from the ground up to be varying difficulty levels, raids were not. We also do not know the amount of resources it takes to complete one fractal with multiple levels of difficulty vs 1 complete raid wing.

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    For point 2.....imo, they should not tune down mechanics, just the dps checks and enrage timers. Does that mean having to dodge 15+ of Slothasor's Spore Release, yeah maybe, but people are not under a time constraint, plus it means practicing that mechanic more. Also, removing LIs and lessening rewards for this mode, so people don't just go the path of least resistance to get LIs, but can still learn the mechanics and see the storyline

    Tbf, most of the DPS checks are really low, VG I think is around 4k, per person in a 10 person squad. Gorseval, on the other hand, is a dps check. But on most other fights, like sloth, if people are dodging the mechanics anyway, enrage won't usually matter, it isn't insta-wipe, and you can still keep on plugging away. Enrage mode, however, does severely lower the possibility for recovery, if a mechanic is missed.

    I remember my guilds first Matt kill. We ended up going 5 min past the enrage timer.

    Hmm.......then I guess the guild runs I tried people couldn't even get to 4k? Because we couldn't even get to phase 2 more then 3 times of VG. And I know the necro was at 29k and me on my thief was around there too, but lower because I don't have min/max stats, just stuff in the general range, running mostly full zerk with some assassin. And when the raid leader posted the dps meter (which to my understanding, NO ONE is aloud to test your dps unless you do it yourself.) most everyone seemed to be around 14k, which I'm guessing not being higher was because of only being in the first phase? Now true, the reason why was because people kept failing the green circle. But the few times we did make it to the 3rd phase, it was after 4 minutes, so 4 minutes into the fight. Dps to low I'm guessing?

  • Lakemine.3014Lakemine.3014 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:
    . So why can't raids be the same way?

    Differing design philosophies. Fractals were created from the ground up to be varying difficulty levels, raids were not. We also do not know the amount of resources it takes to complete one fractal with multiple levels of difficulty vs 1 complete raid wing.

    Hmm......true. Man I wish both teams would come out and explain the truth with all the gritty details and computer jargon and code so we can make more sense of it.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Crevox.5806 said:
    ....This is a weird program the GW2 community has created.

    I believe that this stems from the fact that there really is no way to judge a persons preparedness for raids. Other games have at least a gear score, so you at least know that that person was invested enough to gear up (I would assume, I didn't play those games). This game, you can have random people showing up in whatever they happen to have (ex - wearing soldiers stats while trying to fill a dps role, or wearing rare/exotics of differing stats). The only way groups have of determining someone's willingness to invest, is in the number of LI that others have accrued (or any other arbitrary means, like the AP requirements in prev dungeon running days). Whether right or wrong, it is the method that the community adopted, to at least filter out those that were not invested.

    Something to consider about training runs, they can end up being like auditions. The reason for this is because a lot of the experienced community gives back by helping to run these. You do a training run, even if it gets nowhere, you can still get noticed and invited to a guild. I understand if you don't want to do them, I refused to do them myself, but it took me a much longer time to get into raiding, than it had to.

    I understand what your saying, and for investing into harder content, yes. But, for example, in SWTOR (Star Wars: The Old Republic) they have 3 tiers of difficulty for raids, Story Mode (SM), Veteran Mode (VT) (former Hard Mode HM), and Master Mode (MM) (former Nightmare NIM). The story modes have min req gear ratings, but they are not high, plus they have daily rotating group finder raids, that give a bolster up to the avg gear rating for that raid. So people who might be a bit under geared, or who don't have time to regrind gear can still experience the storyline, for all the raids and on every character. Now VT? Also a gear rating, but no bolster, better rewards, extra mechanics, but still the same storyline. And MM is just worse. Imo, the "normal" of raids in GW2, is the VT mode from SWTOR, it gates people and prevents them from seeing the storyline. But SM does NOT give the same rewards as VT. You want those rewards, go gear up and learn the fights in VT. But if you just want to do the storyline and get some basic rewards, you still have easy story mode to do. Just wish Anet would do the same thing. ie: easier raids so people can see the storyline, but less or next to no rewards, unless they do it normally or in CM.

    One difference between SWTOR's Operations (read: Raids) and GW2's Raids. Operations are the main endgame for SWTOR, the main story always leads to them. In that world it makes sense for the Operations to offer multiple difficulties.

    Raids are not the main endgame for GW2, there is nothing in GW2 that leads you to Raids, story-wise. If you had to go into a raid to find out the culmination of the Heart of Thorns story, and I would agree, there should be multiple difficulty levels. The delivery of the main story in this game, is open world and personal instances. Raids only exist in this game for those that wanted a group (larger than 5) challenge.

    With.....storyline content that effected the personal storyline in LS3. And look at how many people are complaining about how there are to many plot holes showing up out of no where in LS3. (Not saying its a extremely large population, but I see it a lot.)

    Except that Forsaken Thicket had no part in LS3, and it was not telling the part of the Commander (the player character). It was telling the story of a lost patrol, and a squad that went to go find them. The Pact Commander's story, picks up right at the start of LW3.

    Does the story of the Forsaken Thicket help explain how the events of Bloodstone Fen happened? Certainly. But, it is a side story, not the story of the Commander, and not ultimately integral to the story of LW3.

    You could remove Forsaken Thicket, leave the NPC in Bloodstone Fen, and know what happened. They chose to tell his story, through a raid, to convey the difficulty that was put before the heroes that went looking for that missing squad.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Zefiris.8297 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The simple answer is: it's not cost-effective. An "easy/story mode" raid would have no replayability whatsoever. Let alone multiple difficulty tiers. They will serve to only be "accessed" once by some curious players who will never go back to them. It is simply not worth the effort.

    Actually, other MMOs have proven this to be wrong: This approach is most cost effective, because it achieves multiple things at once.
    1. It gets people into raiding, letting them actually try the content and see if they like it (which many do)
    2. It gets people to practice the mechanics, leading to the average person trying a raid to be better at it
    3. It keeps people engaged, because there is more content to do with friends, which is the reason for a MMO to have retention

    This is why the most successful MMOs do use such easier modes. It's not because these games have nicer designers, it's just because it's a more effective use of development time.

    1. No it doesn't. I've seen many people show interest in raiding and lose it quickly. It was never a difficulty problem, it was commitment. Having to make arrangements ahead of time and having to stick with them for the sake of a game - that's what makes people not become raiders, most of everything. You might argue PUGs exist, but pugging wastes a lot more time in setting up a group, both at the start and when somebody leaves. It's your free time and you're trying to have some fun. Waiting is nobody's idea of fun, so people give up on that, too.

    2. No it doesn't. Tuned-down mechanics can only teach you bad habits.

    3. No it doesn't, see (1).

    For point 2.....imo, they should not tune down mechanics, just the dps checks and enrage timers. Does that mean having to dodge 15+ of Slothasor's Spore Release, yeah maybe, but people are not under a time constraint, plus it means practicing that mechanic more. Also, removing LIs and lessening rewards for this mode, so people don't just go the path of least resistance to get LIs, but can still learn the mechanics and see the storyline

    Tbf, most of the DPS checks are really low, VG I think is around 4k, per person in a 10 person squad. Gorseval, on the other hand, is a dps check. But on most other fights, like sloth, if people are dodging the mechanics anyway, enrage won't usually matter, it isn't insta-wipe, and you can still keep on plugging away. Enrage mode, however, does severely lower the possibility for recovery, if a mechanic is missed.

    I remember my guilds first Matt kill. We ended up going 5 min past the enrage timer.

    Hmm.......then I guess the guild runs I tried people couldn't even get to 4k? Because we couldn't even get to phase 2 more then 3 times of VG. And I know the necro was at 29k and me on my thief was around there too, but lower because I don't have min/max stats, just stuff in the general range, running mostly full zerk with some assassin. And when the raid leader posted the dps meter (which to my understanding, NO ONE is aloud to test your dps unless you do it yourself.) most everyone seemed to be around 14k, which I'm guessing not being higher was because of only being in the first phase? Now true, the reason why was because people kept failing the green circle. But the few times we did make it to the 3rd phase, it was after 4 minutes, so 4 minutes into the fight. Dps to low I'm guessing?

    First, you give consent to having your dps monitored, anytime you join a group or squad. The only way to never have it read, is not join a group, or go with groups/people that don't use them. I believe that this was how Anet phrased giving consent.

    To the point you raised, it seems your dps was at an OK level. So it seems that the issue is failed mechanics. For VG, the most common mechanic fails are, not managing greens (either through distort or having people go to the circle), people getting ported by blues (personal mechanic check, although can be distorted), lack of seeker control, slow CC (his CC channel ability really hurts), dps getting in front of VG and getting hit by his absurdly hard auto, and if kiting the boss for phase 2 and 3, not moving the boss fast enough causing greens to spawn in a danger zone.

    Something that I suggest to people, if you are having difficulty overcoming a boss, you or someone else, record a couple of runs. See what you can see, and focus on improving those areas.

  • I would really love to see a story mode for raids. It would make it a lot easier to get started **doing **raids. Dipping my toe, and testing the temperature in a way that is less intensive and demanding from other players, rather than trying to dive into the deep end head first and getting yelled at for not knowing what to do, even after prepping from guides. I want to feel comfortable in taking my time and enjoying the story and scenery, instead of swiftly bashing my way through every portion and then looking up the lore later to see what happened.
    Story mode on the dungeons was quite honestly what got me started playing more than just basic PvE, and was instrumental when I was a new player in becoming comfortable playing in groups and trying new content.
    "This is my story." Please give this solid time and consideration, Anet.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 i can understand the need for easier acess to the story i myself have talked about this. But the raid story is supposed (as many ahve told you) to be experienced in a group format. Theres alot of dialogue between the player characters and between diff characters and the npcs that wouldnt work in solo mode. Speakinga bout wow and even ff14 they dont allow you to solo experience the story either. They do have an entry mode for the raids and that prefectly fine. I feel that an easier normal mode and a harder cm mode is the way to go. But solo modes? No, not really.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @zealex.9410 said:
    @Blaeys.3102 i can understand the need for easier acess to the story i myself have talked about this. But the raid story is supposed (as many ahve told you) to be experienced in a group format. Theres alot of dialogue between the player characters and between diff characters and the npcs that wouldnt work in solo mode. Speakinga bout wow and even ff14 they dont allow you to solo experience the story either. They do have an entry mode for the raids and that prefectly fine. I feel that an easier normal mode and a harder cm mode is the way to go. But solo modes? No, not really.

    @zealex.9410 I agree. I am not in favor of a solo version of the raids and have never advocated for such. I firmly believe that different group difficulties via the use of Motes (whether they are challenge motes or some kind of story mote) is the way to go. They have proven that the concept works - and even admitted its success in this very thread, noting how happy they are with the difficulty of the Mursaat Overseer challenge mote. It is just a matter of getting past their own personal shortcomings about the idea of a story mode and implementing it.

    @fatalyz.1768 - again, there is no such thing as a side story in a game like this. You say that it is a side story because it doesn't contribute to the culmination of the "main" story. The reality is, there is no culmination to the story, because there is no linear progressing main story - GW2 is the amalgam of all the stories, maps and other experiences we have in Tyria and the Mists (something that is true of how most successful MMOs approach storytelling).

    Anet uses the term "side story" as a semantic tool to justify the less accessible nature of the experiences inside the raids - to try and make people not care that they are missing out on that part of the Tyrian (GW2) story. The reality is, of course players would like to experience that content, no matter how little story is there - and that includes people who play bearbow rangers or guardian tanks or whatever (and do not want to have to experience the frustration that trying to play those way-off-the-meta builds play in the current raid format). It isn't about being lazy - it isn't about being bad at the game. it is about a bad decision on the part of the developers essentially locking those experiences away from large portions of the playerbase.

  • I'm not asking for a solo story mode.

  • SirMoogie.9263SirMoogie.9263 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    Except that Forsaken Thicket had no part in LS3, and it was not telling the part of the Commander (the player character). It was telling the story of a lost patrol, and a squad that went to go find them. The Pact Commander's story, picks up right at the start of LW3.

    Well except for all those letters addressed to you asking for your help, your character having active dialogue during the raid, and Bennett saying you were there, if you were. I agree it wasn't PC central, but it did give a nod to you being there as part of the squad, if you partook in it.

  • icy.9250icy.9250 Member

    Crystal Reid wants it more like Wing1, which has some positives but also some negatives. There's a reason people skip Spirit Run and why others making a living selling a Gorseval opener to dozens of groups every week. The whole timegated portals thing after VG is absolutely awful, and the killing of ghosts afterwards, the destroying of random walls while escaping an unseen enemy, or doing some random mushroom JP that looks quite strange in a non-puzzle setting... just to get to Gorseval?

    Please, hopefully we'll never need to see anymore of these Spirit Runs. In this sense, Wing4 accomplished quite a lot -- actual streamlined content where organized groups could pride themselves in uninterrupted skill.

  • @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    I see a lot of comments about W4 difficulty, so I'll add some notes on that as well. Balance came in later than expected since we had far more bosses and content to test than usual. Are we totally happy with how balance turned out? Yes and no. The Mursaat Overseer base difficulty is too easy, but we were very happy with the CM difficulty.

    I've run the MO CM quite a bit and I'm not sure that's the kind of difficulty we're looking for. A lot of the difficulty in that fight comes from dps lining up with mechanics, forcing the spikes and blue square to happen at the same time. Yes, it's possible to work around it through lowering the team's dps or getting enough movement to find a blue square that isn't covered but it makes the difficulty feel very rng and more frustrating than other CM fights.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102

    I am not attempting to say that people don't want or shouldn't want access to that story. It, just is flat out not related to the Commander (PC). That, by it's nature makes it a side story. Whether people want access to it or not, has no bearing on whether it is or is not a side story.

    The decision to lock the content behind a skill wall, that they intentionally made high, and whether it is bad or not, is highly subjective.

    I do not see it as a bad thing, simply because there is nothing wrong with some content that a majority will never experience. In this, raids are content that are all about the challenge for the group, the story is secondary. If it was all about the story, why doesn't it involve the Commander, why is most of the story told through notes, not dialogue and cut scenes?

    Yes, it has interesting story. But just because it has interesting story, does not mean that it has to be for everyone. Perhaps if it kills the game, then it can be said that it was needed. But if the game continues to go strong, then perhaps it never did need it, and people just wanted it.

  • @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:
    . So why can't raids be the same way?

    Differing design philosophies. Fractals were created from the ground up to be varying difficulty levels, raids were not.

    Well, in that case that design philosophy for raids seem to be faulty at its core.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:
    . So why can't raids be the same way?

    Differing design philosophies. Fractals were created from the ground up to be varying difficulty levels, raids were not.

    Well, in that case that design philosophy for raids seem to be faulty at its core.

    It's only faulty when you have a specific idea of what you think it should be, and unable to accept what it is.

    Edit: In other words, it is only faulty when it is a failure. By all appearances, it is a success for it's intended audience, and then some. That makes it hard to argue that it is faulty.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:

    @Lakemine.3014 said:
    . So why can't raids be the same way?

    Differing design philosophies. Fractals were created from the ground up to be varying difficulty levels, raids were not. We also do not know the amount of resources it takes to complete one fractal with multiple levels of difficulty vs 1 complete raid wing.

    Raid difficulty mode don't need to be super complex. For example:

    Vale Guardian

    • Easy mode: The boss is weaker in general. Failing green circles does much less damage. Enrage timer longer by 4 minutes. You get no LIs and no unique ascended loot.
    • Hard mode: The boss is stronger in general. You need 6 persons at the green circles. Failing a green wipes the raid. The split versions come back to life after 10 seconds if there's any other split alive, so you need to kill the 3 at the same time. Entering areas outside your color during the split does more damage. Enrage timer shorter by 2 minutes. You get an additional LI, and the chances for unique ascended loot are higher.

    That would suffice.

    @icy.9250 said:
    Crystal Reid wants it more like Wing1, which has some positives but also some negatives. There's a reason people skip Spirit Run and why others making a living selling a Gorseval opener to dozens of groups every week. The whole timegated portals thing after VG is absolutely awful, and the killing of ghosts afterwards, the destroying of random walls while escaping an unseen enemy, or doing some random mushroom JP that looks quite strange in a non-puzzle setting... just to get to Gorseval?

    Please, hopefully we'll never need to see anymore of these Spirit Runs. In this sense, Wing4 accomplished quite a lot -- actual streamlined content where organized groups could pride themselves in uninterrupted skill.

    Those filler events should either be optional, or part of the bosses themselves.

  • i get it that you want the raids to be the most difficult mode in the game.
    however i feel like new "players" or "raid players" are feeling intimidated for participating in them. The current players that do raids on a weekly basis will have no problem at all but if you see the lfg new players will never have a chance with any of the raids, and when more raids will come into the game i feel that situation will get worse.
    A lot of ppl have not managed to even kill any boss, because of lack of skill in the group or ignorance . Its different to read how to kill the boss and kill it.
    You may have to consider ways to make raids more welcoming to new and ignorant players
    For Example: 1) you have timers on bosses and if you wont manage to kill it in the appropriate time the group will instantly die. rather than killing the group you could let the group continue to fight until they kill it and maybe reward them less or nothing. this is just for them to be trained for the particular boss
    2) you could always create an easy mode for raids and give less rewards or nothing, could be done just for exploration and lore.
    3) you can create a hard mode for every raid for the pro players and give them more rewards in exchange

  • @Lakemine.3014 said:
    Because if gear is easier to get, then it becomes about peoples skill and knowledge about their class and the fights. This is why I LOVE pvp and ranked in GW2. Icame from SWTOR pvp, where you would get rofl stomped, even with a bolster on, by people who had better gear then you. Pvp here (I started just after the change in April of 2014) is NO FREKAING GEAR NEEDED. Its about skill, its about knowing your class, the other classes, trying to outsmart other people, know the maps, know rotations. Your not held back by stupid gear that costs upwards of 400+ gold. And you can switch to a different class on the fly, no hassle. Heck, I can go make a new character, and within 3 minutes of making them, be beating people in ranked. Can't do that in raids. (Also to help people if I need to switch to a different class because the comp needs to change. Can do that in ranked, can't in raids, unless you have metric ton of gold, which most people don't.)

    Ascended gear isn't that expensive.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Fatalyz.7168 said:
    @Blaeys.3102

    I am not attempting to say that people don't want or shouldn't want access to that story. It, just is flat out not related to the Commander (PC). That, by it's nature makes it a side story. Whether people want access to it or not, has no bearing on whether it is or is not a side story.

    The decision to lock the content behind a skill wall, that they intentionally made high, and whether it is bad or not, is highly subjective.

    I do not see it as a bad thing, simply because there is nothing wrong with some content that a majority will never experience. In this, raids are content that are all about the challenge for the group, the story is secondary. If it was all about the story, why doesn't it involve the Commander, why is most of the story told through notes, not dialogue and cut scenes?

    Yes, it has interesting story. But just because it has interesting story, does not mean that it has to be for everyone. Perhaps if it kills the game, then it can be said that it was needed. But if the game continues to go strong, then perhaps it never did need it, and people just wanted it.

    You are right - it is highly subjective, which is why I say it is a semantic argument to begin with. It is why you and I disagree on the definition - but I do still believe that the developer's use of the phrase "side story" when first used in relation to raids (and I was an active part of that conversation) was misleading and used almost exclusively to convince people that they wouldn't be interested in the stories in the first place. That was just weeks before wing four came out and we saw that the story dealt with the fate of a GW1 character - a story/revelation that a lot of people (not just hardcore raiders) would have loved experiencing with their friends.

    So, if the story is truly secondary, as you say, then a short term solution seems to be removing story from raids entirely - at least until a better solution can be developed. Not saying that would solve the underlying issue with raid design in this game, but it would keep it from getting worse for the time being.

    To your other argument, it really doesn't matter what they originally intended raids to be. If we go with that line of reasoning, there is a lot in the game that would have never changed. Sometimes, the game has to adapt.

    They have clearly proven themselves that multiple difficulties would work (by Crystal's own admission, whether she accepts it or not, with her comments about MO challenge mote earlier in this thread). Other games have shown that it eventually becomes necessary to sustain a raiding community. No matter what people think of how story modes were implemented in those games, they were implemented for a reason.

    I believe it is just a matter of time before Anet has to accept that they will be needed in this game as well.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    Sometimes, the game has to adapt.

    Very true. Sometimes though, the player has to adapt (look no further than dungeons, no matter how much people want it, Anet is leaving it behind). They have put a lot of different things into the game, and unfortunately they can't fully develop everything. If the trade-off for single difficulty raids, was no raids, due to the limited resources that they wanted to put into it. I'll gladly take the single difficulty.

    They have clearly proven themselves that multiple difficulties would work (by Crystal's own admission, whether she accepts it or not, with her comments about MO challenge mote earlier in this thread). Other games have shown that it eventually becomes necessary to sustain a raiding community, not matter what people think of how they were implemented there. It is just a matter of time before Anet has to accept that.

    It isn't about whether it would work or not. I'm pretty sure that they know that multiple modes would work. The problem lies with the trade-off being the frequency with which they can release content, and they prefer a higher frequency of content. (I understand that her comment about their preference to put out content faster was more in relation to making it more accessible from a grouping standpoint, but I feel that it can be easily applied to making different difficulty levels as well.)

    They may accept that, but they do not have to. They may never accept that, and the game could continue on for a couple of decades, being successful. In that instance, it is just a matter of time before the player accepts that Anet isn't changing it.

    I also get the feeling that Anet isn't trying to maintain a tight knit raiding community. If they were, why do the raid devs barely partake with the community, or even a raid CM? Raids feel more like, here you go, see what you can do with it. We created this challenge, we want to see how you solve it.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭

    @Fatalyz.7168

    Except raiding in this game - for actual hardcore raiders - is a bit of a joke. First kills are within hours, if not minutes, of the raid wing release, compared to days, weeks (and even months in one case I can remember) for other raid focused games.

    There are raiding games out there that push your knowledge, reflexes and general skill at the game - GW2 is not one of them. You memorize the "dance" of the raid and everything else is just numbers. Difficulty in GW2 raids is centered almost entirely around mathematical tweaks that only serve to make the content less accessible (or, at the very least, overly frustrating) to average players who enjoy off brand (way off meta) builds or playstyles. That frustration creates an illusion that relies on exclusionary design (fewer people do it so it must be hard) rather than actual difficult mechanics.

    The problem is that, in order to maintain that illusion of difficulty, they have to maintain the exclusionary design, and that is potentially damaging to the feel of the game for people not interested in the arbitrary requirements of GW2 raiding in its current form.

    And that stems from a fundamental design difference between GW2 and those other games - the very difference that brought people like me to the game in the first place. GW2 is more community focused than pretty much any other MMO out there. Guilds actually mean something here - people are encouraged to become part of the larger community. In contrast, raid focused MMOs are more about the small group (5, 10, 25, 40 person) experience. They build their content almost exclusively to cater to those groups. That is what Anet is trying to do with raids, but I do believe it goes against the underlying feel of the game and often works in direct contradiction to that community focused design that made the game so groundbreaking when it first came out.

  • Exciton.8942Exciton.8942 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Fatalyz.7168

    Except raiding in this game - for actual hardcore raiders - is a bit of a joke. First kills are within hours, if not minutes, of the raid wing release, compared to days, weeks (and even months in one case I can remember) for other raid focused games.

    There are raiding games out there that push your knowledge, reflexes and general skill at the game - GW2 is not one of them. You memorize the "dance" of the raid and everything else is just numbers. Difficulty in GW2 raids is centered almost entirely around mathematical tweaks that only serve to make the content less accessible (or, at the very least, overly frustrating) to average players who enjoy off brand (way off meta) builds or playstyles. That frustration creates an illusion that relies on exclusionary design (fewer people do it so it must be hard) rather than actual difficult mechanics.

    The problem is that, in order to maintain that illusion of difficulty, they have to maintain the exclusionary design, and that is potentially damaging to the feel of the game for people not interested in the arbitrary requirements of GW2 raiding in its current form.

    And that stems from a fundamental design difference between GW2 and those other games - the very difference that brought people like me to the game in the first place. GW2 is more community focused than pretty much any other MMO out there. Guilds actually mean something here - people are encouraged to become part of the larger community. In contrast, raid focused MMOs are more about the small group (5, 10, 25, 40 person) experience. They build their content almost exclusively to cater to those groups. That is what Anet is trying to do with raids, but I do believe it goes against the underlying feel of the game and often works in direct contradiction to that community focused design that made the game so groundbreaking when it first came out.

    I have to disagree.

    Encounter mechanics is precisely the No.1 reason that raid is challenging for most players. It is not because that they can't run off-meta builds.
    There is no strict dps requirement to beat most encounters and most meta builds are not that much worse than meta ones. You can easily get away by doing 20%-30% less dps than optimal builds.

    So you think content should either be so difficult that it has to be like a second job for players to beat or so easy that every one can beat with ease. I feel you are ignoring many players falling into a middle ground in content difficulty(just like me). For me, gw2 raid difficulty is very well-tuned. It provides just enough challenge for casual gamers.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭

    @Exciton.8942 said:

    Never said that people can't beat raids with off meta builds. What I said is that raids are much more frustrating for people who choose to do so - which in turn discourages a lot of people from the content.

    I made my comments about difficulty versus other raiding games because of Crystal's point about remembering the first time you kill a particular boss. I dont recall my first Vale Guardian kill fondly with pride. I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta. On the contrary, after a decade, I still remember my first KT kill in WoW, or first Lich King or Yogg Saron Alone in the Dark - and the effort that went into learning and beating those encounters. I remember them, in part, because they fit well with how that game was designed and who it was designed for.

    The math in GW2 raids is not a hard wall restriction, but it is punishing enough to make the experience exponentially more frustrating for players, creating that illusionary difficulty that I talk about above. It isn't a black and white difference; it is a matter of degrees. And, with the way Anet markets raids, they rely on that frustration and the people who succumb to it (which is bad for the community, imo), rather than any real difficulty, to create the illusion of challenging content.

    And, to make things worse, they really can't fix it without changing their entire design philosophy around raids. Lonami said it best on reddit and again here in this thread, but I will attempt to summarize -

    Without separating into multiple difficulties, they have to make too many concessions related to difficulty in order to keep from pushing that frustration spot to the point where the number of raiders no longer justifies development time. If they make it too hard, they lose too many people. If they make it too easy, they lose a different group of people. They are paying Peter to rob Paul either way. Ergo, if we want continued (actual) difficult content in raids, in a sustainable model, we need the story or easier motes alongside the challenging content.

  • @Cyrus.2607 said:
    I agree that Raids should always be difficult! With regards to having an "easy" version of the raid, why not just have an Easy Mote that basically grants invul (like Determined) to the entire squad. That way any number of people can just run through the raids as-is and see the story in the raids. There should be NO **rewards for running it this way and **NO **achievements possible from this. **That way, the only reward of doing this is for those interested in what the raid stories are, but gain nothing else outside of that. Additionally, the devs need not figure out how to create "cheaper" mechanics for the bosses at all and continue creating content at the rate they already are.

    this. just a cheap mode for the curious ppl.

    But although from what I observed in the raids, there is not much of lore in there, just few dialogues and cinematics at end. .

    In fact, anyone who has ever done raids, maybe because people talk about complex mechanics, imagine it to be a business full of cinematics and dialogues and lore lol.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Fatalyz.7168

    Except raiding in this game - for actual hardcore raiders - is a bit of a joke. First kills are within hours, if not minutes, of the raid wing release, compared to days, weeks (and even months in one case I can remember) for other raid focused games.

    I understand that it is. The thing about that is, it was never marketed towards hardcore raiders. It was only ever marketed as challenging group content, and within the context of the rest of the game, it fits.

    There are raiding games out there that push your knowledge, reflexes and general skill at the game - GW2 is not one of them. You memorize the "dance" of the raid and everything else is just numbers. Difficulty in GW2 raids is centered almost entirely around mathematical tweaks that only serve to make the content less accessible (or, at the very least, overly frustrating) to average players who enjoy off brand (way off meta) builds or playstyles. That frustration creates an illusion that relies on exclusionary design (fewer people do it so it must be hard) rather than actual difficult mechanics.

    Except, that if people are able to perform the mechanics, a lot of fights could be done with 10/10 off-meta builds. The difference is, running off-meta builds requires a much deeper understanding of your class/playstyle, as well as the ability to continue performing mechanics. I would say that this pushes your knowledge, reflexes, and general skill at the game.

    If anything running meta builds makes it easier for people to get into raids, not harder. All of the work has already been done for the player.

    The problem is that, in order to maintain that illusion of difficulty, they have to maintain the exclusionary design, and that is potentially damaging to the feel of the game for people not interested in the arbitrary requirements of GW2 raiding in its current form.

    And that stems from a fundamental design difference between GW2 and those other games - the very difference that brought people like me to the game in the first place. GW2 is more community focused than pretty much any other MMO out there. Guilds actually mean something here - people are encouraged to become part of the larger community. In contrast, raid focused MMOs are more about the small group (5, 10, 25, 40 person) experience. They build their content almost exclusively to cater to those groups. That is what Anet is trying to do with raids, but I do believe it goes against the underlying feel of the game and often works in direct contradiction to that community focused design that made the game so groundbreaking when it first came out.

    The difference is, those games wanted raids to cater to multiple communities within the game, and that isn't a bad thing. GW2 wants raids to cater to those who want a challenge, not those who don't, and that isn't a bad thing either. Saying that they should just remove the story then because someone might find it interesting and can't do the challenge, is not.

    I will admit that Crystal said that raids SHOULD stay challenging and exclusive based on skill level, that doesn't mean that it will. I did take it to mean that it will stay that way unless it becomes a failure or detracts from the main game.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Exciton.8942 said:

    Never said that people can't beat raids with off meta builds. What I said is that raids are much more frustrating for people who choose to do so - which in turn discourages a lot of people from the content.

    I made my comments about difficulty versus other raiding games because of Crystal's point about remembering the first time you kill a particular boss. I dont recall my first Vale Guardian kill fondly with pride. I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta. On the contrary, after a decade, I still remember my first KT kill in WoW, or first Lich King or Yogg Saron Alone in the Dark - and the effort that went into learning and beating those encounters. I remember them, in part, because they fit well with how that game was designed and who it was designed for.

    The math in GW2 raids is not a hard wall restriction, but it is punishing enough to make the experience exponentially more frustrating for players, creating that illusionary difficulty that I talk about above. It isn't a black and white difference; it is a matter of degrees. And, with the way Anet markets raids, they rely on that frustration and the people who succumb to it (which is bad for the community, imo), rather than any real difficulty, to create the illusion of challenging content.

    And, to make things worse, they really can't fix it without changing their entire design philosophy around raids. Lonami said it best on reddit and again here in this thread, but I will attempt to summarize -

    Without separating into multiple difficulties, they have to make too many concessions related to difficulty in order to keep from pushing that frustration spot to the point where the number of raiders no longer justifies development time. If they make it too hard, they lose too many people. If they make it too easy, they lose a different group of people. They are paying Peter to rob Paul either way. Ergo, if we want continued (actual) difficult content in raids, in a sustainable model, we need the story or easier motes alongside the challenging content.

    Gw2 doesnt need to do too many diff mode the most would be base mode and cm. The game hasnt or wont become raid centric raiding as alot of ppl have said is a niche and if you want to get into it you should change your aproach. Much like i had to change my entire paladin build in wow when i dicided to get into raids. Wow tries to make raids relavant to alot more ppl because raids are what wow is played for.

    "I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta" is there something wrong with that? should content require you to have a specific playstyle and something that makes sense to compensate for the lack of skill required? U remember your first raids in wow because that was prob your first real interaction with the content meanwhile gw2's isnt something new so it wont stick to you. I for example my first raid experience was lfr in wod then i took a break and went to gw2 and raided. I hold my first vg kill with alot more pride than i do my first wow kill. Same when i went back to legion and tried heroic nightmare. it wasnt so much impactful to me as a player because i had already experienced the struggle and excitement of raiding elsewere.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭
    edited September 13

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Exciton.8942 said:

    Never said that people can't beat raids with off meta builds. What I said is that raids are much more frustrating for people who choose to do so - which in turn discourages a lot of people from the content.

    I made my comments about difficulty versus other raiding games because of Crystal's point about remembering the first time you kill a particular boss. I dont recall my first Vale Guardian kill fondly with pride. I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta. On the contrary, after a decade, I still remember my first KT kill in WoW, or first Lich King or Yogg Saron Alone in the Dark - and the effort that went into learning and beating those encounters. I remember them, in part, because they fit well with how that game was designed and who it was designed for.

    The math in GW2 raids is not a hard wall restriction, but it is punishing enough to make the experience exponentially more frustrating for players, creating that illusionary difficulty that I talk about above. It isn't a black and white difference; it is a matter of degrees. And, with the way Anet markets raids, they rely on that frustration and the people who succumb to it (which is bad for the community, imo), rather than any real difficulty, to create the illusion of challenging content.

    And, to make things worse, they really can't fix it without changing their entire design philosophy around raids. Lonami said it best on reddit and again here in this thread, but I will attempt to summarize -

    Without separating into multiple difficulties, they have to make too many concessions related to difficulty in order to keep from pushing that frustration spot to the point where the number of raiders no longer justifies development time. If they make it too hard, they lose too many people. If they make it too easy, they lose a different group of people. They are paying Peter to rob Paul either way. Ergo, if we want continued (actual) difficult content in raids, in a sustainable model, we need the story or easier motes alongside the challenging content.

    Gw2 doesnt need to do too many diff mode the most would be base mode and cm. The game hasnt or wont become raid centric raiding as alot of ppl have said is a niche and if you want to get into it you should change your aproach. Much like i had to change my entire paladin build in wow when i dicided to get into raids. Wow tries to make raids relavant to alot more ppl because raids are what wow is played for.

    "I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta" is there something wrong with that? should content require you to have a specific playstyle and something that makes sense to compensate for the lack of skill required? U remember your first raids in wow because that was prob your first real interaction with the content meanwhile gw2's isnt something new so it wont stick to you. I for example my first raid experience was lfr in wod then i took a break and went to gw2 and raided. I hold my first vg kill with alot more pride than i do my first wow kill. Same when i went back to legion and tried heroic nightmare. it wasnt so much impactful to me as a player because i had already experienced the struggle and excitement of raiding elsewere.

    Raids take 8 or so months to come out how longer to do you thing that would be if raids lets say had 3 modes? And already the cm isnt a brand new take on the fight its basically the same encounter with buffed hp and a changed mechanic.

  • Fatalyz.7168Fatalyz.7168 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    @Exciton.8942 said:

    Never said that people can't beat raids with off meta builds. What I said is that raids are much more frustrating for people who choose to do so - which in turn discourages a lot of people from the content.

    I made my comments about difficulty versus other raiding games because of Crystal's point about remembering the first time you kill a particular boss. I dont recall my first Vale Guardian kill fondly with pride. I remember it as the point at which the group finally caved and went all meta. On the contrary, after a decade, I still remember my first KT kill in WoW, or first Lich King or Yogg Saron Alone in the Dark - and the effort that went into learning and beating those encounters. I remember them, in part, because they fit well with how that game was designed and who it was designed for.

    The math in GW2 raids is not a hard wall restriction, but it is punishing enough to make the experience exponentially more frustrating for players, creating that illusionary difficulty that I talk about above. It isn't a black and white difference; it is a matter of degrees. And, with the way Anet markets raids, they rely on that frustration and the people who succumb to it (which is bad for the community, imo), rather than any real difficulty, to create the illusion of challenging content.

    And, to make things worse, they really can't fix it without changing their entire design philosophy around raids. Lonami said it best on reddit and again here in this thread, but I will attempt to summarize -

    Without separating into multiple difficulties, they have to make too many concessions related to difficulty in order to keep from pushing that frustration spot to the point where the number of raiders no longer justifies development time. If they make it too hard, they lose too many people. If they make it too easy, they lose a different group of people. They are paying Peter to rob Paul either way. Ergo, if we want continued (actual) difficult content in raids, in a sustainable model, we need the story or easier motes alongside the challenging content.

    The thing is, I don't see raids as being intended towards the hardcore crowd, nothing in this game is, at least to me. I see this is as a casual game. Raids are challenging content, within that scope. Ergo, raids are intended to be "casual challenging content". Not meant to cater to either extreme. This is OK because they want raids in this game, to remain niche content. Niche content in games is good. There is just a disconnect with raids, where some people do not think it is acceptable for raids to be the niche content, and can't seem to get around that.

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