Venta healer, better than druid, hmm???? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Venta healer, better than druid, hmm????

aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

Okay so let me start off with this isn't a druid bash thread, also WHY AREN'T THERE MORE VENTA HEALERS? Hopefully this thread popularizes it. Let's look at some facts here..
So firstly I would like to state that the ventari/kalla, Renegade build is insanely strong .. And for those who don't know much about ventari/renegade/kalla takes some notes.

_ - Gear_ - You will be using all harriers gear (Power, Healing, Concentration). Basically you use harriers for the PERMA- might(25), protection, regen, vigor, fury, alacrity and the power that harrier gear brings to the table for a renegade is outstanding 4-6k easily in raids and fractals that's a feat to its self for healers in the game. You will be running sword/sword(I use axe in fractals because of the pull) and staff. Obviously staff for the healing on the 4th skill and condition removal on the 4th skill and the healing orbs(350+healing for each orb x2) on the autos etc.. staff is overall a great weapon for the revenant on all sorts of builds. Sword/ Sword obviously for the devastating dmg it does. The chill, the fury(gain vigor whenever you gain fury). Also I run Altruism runes instead of the Monk runes.
Traits

-Salvation trait-line brings such a strong healing option at least 42% extra healing power...… that alone is another feat no other class can bring to the table. Being able to hit 7k on Natural Harmony every two seconds is awesome you're basically looking at, AT LEAST 14k healing just from that alone in 2 seconds, plus perma regen which is 460 a tick plus if you drop down breakrazor's bastion which does 2700+ ticks for 10 seconds and also brings 50% less dmg from conditions is a great plus.. you're looking at in just 3 seconds 460 from perma regen 14k from natural harmony 550 on project tranquility(Every 3 seconds a burst from the tablet itself does 550) and by the way this is all without the invoking harmony (trait in salvation that gives 20 additional percent to healing power) so basically calculate 20% at the end of all that to see what you actually get because every 10 seconds your swapping legends anyways. You're looking at, at least 17.7k healing every 3 seconds and that's continuous healing.. there is no break in between this. Also don't forget I didn't even calculate the 20% from the legend swap Invoking Harmony 20% extra healing power for 10 seconds. Plus the perma alacrity from your f3 and natural harmony. And Don't even get me started on the Kalla healing wait till you hear about that. This is Salvation Trait-line. 10/10 HEALING

_ - Devastation trait-line_ Devastation trait line is what we all know best because if you look in the revs forums that's all people play.. and its embarrassing.. Nobody on that page can be diverse and change up there build and think GLINT and SHIRO are the only thing in this game for revenant... As we all know devastation is basically for damage. Basically its a selfish trait line you do 12% extra damage, and siphon. Now you can bring either or I would bring swift termination for the 20% so at 50% and below you're doing 32 extra damage. The big thing about the devastation trait line is that you bring assassins presence to the table that gives your sub group 150+ ferocity..

  • Renegade trait-line and finally the renegade trait line. Super strong in the condition build as well.. Renegade brings such a strong presence to pve we should be seeing more renegades by the hour. Firstly lets go over the special f1,2,&3 abilities. F1 brings perma might. F2 Bring tons of aoe dmg(you never use this though). And lastly f3 of which we already explained does alacrity, its not perma but once you use natural harmony you can perma. First off, we have Kalla's fervor which gives you tons of ferocity on top of your assassin's presence(150 ferocity) + kalla's fervor which gives u 250 ferocity(Yes you will be bringing lasting legacy for the might stacking) that's a total of 400 ferocity... That's insane for a healer. You get perma Vigor and Fury from renegade... and you get 33% critical chance increase from just minor traits. Now for the real traits
    Wrought Iron Will - Evading an attack inspires you with Kalla's Fervor and grants boons to nearby allies. Regeneration and Retaliation
    All for one - This is where your perma Protection comes in.. 7 seconds per spirit you drop.. and you are constantly dropping your spirits if your rotation is perfect you will NEVER run out of protection for you and your group.

Lasting Legacy - Kalla's Fervor you inspire lasts longer and is more potent. Heroic Command grants more might per stack of Kalla's Fervor.. This is where your 25 might stacks come in handy... for 21 seconds u give your group 15 might and heroic command is a 10 second cooldown EASILY be able to perma stack might.
The renegade skills bring so much diversity, dps, CC, and tons and tons of extra dmg for you and your group... I will not stress this enough but Soulcleave's leeching x5 people brings so much healing and so much dmg to the group on top of everything else ive already talked about. Life siphon damage is 420 and Life siphon healing is 624 that means.. And I can't stress this out enough, this is up for at least 10 seconds with Breakrazors bastion. That means you and your team for 10 seconds are doing 420 dmg PER HIT for 10 secs plus 624 healing per hit plus the regen plus Breakrazors bastion your doing at least 3,774 healing a tick literally, and that's if you hit one attack on 1 target every second... For example (One Skill, One Person) My shackling waves does 6 hits in 1 sec... 6x624=3,744.. the healing the Elite does on Kalla is AMAZING.. PLUS THE DMG 420x6= 2,520 EXTRA DAMAGE plus the base damage from shackling waves which does 6-7k.. and that's one skill. You could be a DH guard drop down all your traps and hit one target 40-60 times in 10 seconds add that to the 420 siphon damage and siphon healing. 40x420=16,800 EXTRA DAMAGE... plus 624x40= 24,960 HEALING????? IN 10 SECONDS PEOPLE?!?!?! And that's one target.. If you were doing a raid for example on gors and you pulled those adds in or if you were stacking on Sabetha and attacking the other adds, plus the champion the damage and healing you're getting is literally no competition. No other healer in this game will give you these stats. Btw if you add 24,960 healing x 5 since 5 people gain Soulcleaves buff you're looking at 20,000 healing times 5 = 100,000 healing in 10 seconds for the whole sub group.. Plus the damage which is 16,000 times 5 = 80,000 extra damage. OBVIOUSLY these are numbers im just throwing up its a medium.. Literally these numbers could be worst depending how good your Venta healer is OR it could actually be even BETTER. Truly the numbers Venta brings to the table is outrageous. Truly a gift to this game and people don't play it due to being blinded by the might stacking and 2 spirits Druid gives to the game.. Which in my opinion is a total mistake

  • Rotation and basic's - Basically this build heals A kitten TON and gives perma, alacrity, might, protection, regen and vigor. Good fury too.
    Rotation is simple, use F3 and 2 Natural Harmony(3 if alacrity is tight) in Ventari for alacrity, in Kalla use Elite and heal skill only(Sword 2 aswell if youre playing sword), and then spam F1 on cooldown. Gives your chrono a little break from alacrity and gives ur chrono more of a power stance than stacking on so much alacrity.

Outro - If I'm asking for anything it's for people to try this build out and experience with it. I use this for everything. I've solo'd dungeons I've used it in fractals and raids. If you have any questions leave them down below. This is just a thread to give more light to a class that's being shadowed by something that truly is less superior in my opinion. And this is also not a bashing session to druid or any other class out there. I've probably left some stuff out so if you have any questions leave them down below! Here is a link that Fennec a youtuber that plays revenant Venta
and heres a link to the meta battles build http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Renegade_-_Boon_Support_Healer for the build. Enjoy guys leave any questions or thoughts about the build!!

note - I WILL BE ADDING THIS TO BOTH REVENANT FORUM AND THE PROFESSION FORUMS, THANK YOU!

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    this is cool dood! thank you for the eye opener. shout out to fennec as well. gonna like da vid.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I was sure this wasn't a secret at all, people just continue to use Druid for spirits.

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aimz.6287 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    I was sure this wasn't a secret at all, people just continue to use Druid for spirits.

    It’s not a secret but the thing is renegades spirits are just as strong... the problem is people don’t know this and it’s sad. People don’t know it because people don’t give other people a chance with something new people are just “meta meta meta, or it won’t work” it’s a terrible mind set and it’s 100% fact that Venta is just as good as Druid

    Well, considering that Rev in general is top DPS for many raid encounters already.. People are slow or dumb.

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

    More people need to run this and show people it will work and it will soon be considered an option without a problem

  • My main is a condi-heal Rev, and I like the Rev playstyle.
    Unfortunately in terms of buffs we bring to a RAID, a druid is way better ,especially if the druid uses the core ranger utility spirits that can buff an entire group of 10.
    Revenant buffs are still limited to at most 5, which only works for fractals or subgroups :anguished:

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2018

    I actually use it on Wvw (but the herald version since in dont use PoF stuff) and it is a pain due how game does not allow this to work that seamless....(since i tend to avoid scrub friendly metabatles overperfoamnce builds)

    Now:
    It looks great!
    It does great heals, im healling targets arround 7-8k heals on zealots gear, herald shield 4 heals arround 5k!
    That's true, but issue is, u need to predict to where the tablet will be needed due movement and tablet + heal delay(while people are attacking you, while you are using your skills in offense and defense and using energy, and paying atention to some e-management to use it on allies if needed).

    Now while druid spam auto mode healing farts with no e-management needed nor tablet reallocation, wich one is easyer and heals more constantly???

    Testing against static objects does not means builds works on the field, this build is mostly one shootted and dead people cant support^^ .

    EDit: dont get me wrong i do recommend more players using this, just dont expect to be easy to play, cause how lame game is towards damage spam on other classes.

  • aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

    @Wahlao.1069 said:
    My main is a condi-heal Rev, and I like the Rev playstyle.
    Unfortunately in terms of buffs we bring to a RAID, a druid is way better ,especially if the druid uses the core ranger utility spirits that can buff an entire group of 10.
    Revenant buffs are still limited to at most 5, which only works for fractals or subgroups :anguished:

    Yea but if you already have 1 druid you don't need 2 druids so a rev should be the second option

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 20, 2018

    Becuz overriding alacrity stacks (resulting in downtime) and not as much group dmg increase potential as druid. That's why its not meta.

    Also lacks the utility of druid. Ie spirit ressing, search and rescue, and reliable - on demand - group stun break.

    Also buffs affecting 10 ppl, rather than 5.

  • aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Becuz overriding alacrity stacks (resulting in downtime) and not as much group dmg increase potential as druid. That's why its not meta.

    Also lacks the utility of druid. Ie spirit ressing, search and rescue, and reliable - on demand - group stun break.

    Also buffs affecting 10 ppl, rather than 5.

    There is more CC on the Rev build, there shouldn't be any resing, and I never said get rid of a druid. I said instead of using 2 druids(which you've stated they can support 10 people so why use a 2nd how silly is that lol LUL?) u can use a Druid, Rev.. And its not like youre spamming alacrity and its causing problems to use alacrity its that its already implemented in the build. The way you think ''overriding alacrity stacks'' is fine... Theres nothing wrong with that if its implemented in the build.. That's like saying.. well if druid only gives out 25 might but imagine if rev could do 28 might is that overriding a certain stack... Get real dude.. That's sad for you to think that's negative. And I see where you are coming from with that point. ''Spamming alacrity skills makes less dps'' No sir... not at all... Venta support does ****MORE**** dps than a druid.. Ive never seen a druid hit over 5k yet in a raid group... They do 3k max.... a rev easily doubles that EASILY... If you took time to look into the build you would understand but you don't you just know what you never tried and that's nothing.. and you just use your silly statistics that your mad brain can only exceed and that's not much, and this isn't disrespect this is obvious. Revs rotation is CLEAN, 25 mights EASY perma regen EASY(DONT EVEN CLICK ANYTHING FOR IT) Perma protection from spirits, perma vigor and fury u get vigor from ur fury and ur fury is on critical hits.. and using ur heal skill which you use to heal the group? There is literally no struggle to using the boons you stack. Same with alacrity, you just use it from ur heal when the team needs heals and theres no spamming any boon to keep it alive.. your just HELPING the group... Chrono Mesmer could use, instead of using Improved alacrity for its SELF the chrono can use danger time to improve its OWN DPS making EVEN MORE DPS TO THE GROUP.. Cant do that with a druid.. these are the little things you miss because you mind can only exceed a certain level of imagination. I bet your the guy that goes on forums and complains to the devs that rev is totally botched and they need a desperate pickmeup because all you play in pvp is glint shiro typical meta and probably play renegade condi and that's the max you can exceed.. theres your overdrive. Maybe experience with it watch the youtube video read the metabattles build and try it out and then give your opinion and if you have your doing it wrong.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aimz.6287 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    I was sure this wasn't a secret at all, people just continue to use Druid for spirits.

    It’s not a secret but the thing is renegades spirits are just as strong... the problem is people don’t know this and it’s sad. People don’t know it because people don’t give other people a chance with something new people are just “meta meta meta, or it won’t work” it’s a terrible mind set and it’s 100% fact that Venta is just as good as Druid

    The big difference is that Renegade spirits use the Renegade's stats for their effects, while Druid spirits use the party member that it's affecting's stats.

    So, for example, if you're playing support Renegade, your Razorclaw will do terrible damage... But a Harrier Druid's Sun/Frost Spirit's will contribute a ton of dps to the group since they scale off of the entire raid's stats (aka, 5-6 dps members, the BS, and the offchrono all get a solid damage boost vs a renegade with no condi duration and maybe hybrid level condi dmg applying 35-50 stacks of mediocre bleed ticks.)

    So, from a strictly support standpoint, druid spirits are a huge group boost, whereas Renegade spirits are not (aside from Soulcleaves static leech damage.) Also, druid spirits are mostly cast and forget skills, whereas a Renegade using spirits is sacrificing a large portion of their healing/dps potential by spending energy here instead of on other skills.

    (Plus all the other boosts Druids bring; 10 man might, Glyph of Empowerment, Spirit Rez, Search and Rescue, lots of cc (including a ton of super useful soft cc like immob and ca5), and group fury.)

    @aimz.6287 said:
    [...] I never said get rid of a druid. I said instead of using 2 druids(which you've stated they can support 10 people so why use a 2nd how silly is that lol LUL?) u can use a Druid, Rev.. And its not like youre spamming alacrity and its causing problems to use alacrity its that its already implemented in the build.

    While yes, alacrity spam wouldn't be a problem, one thing to consider is that Ventari pukes out so much pure healing that it will be very difficult for that Druid to generate Astral Force, which means a lot less might uptime. Granted, Renegade's can help with might via their f2 and blast finishers, but only within their subgroup...

    Not saying Renegade shouldn't be taken, but there's a lot fo things to consider and there's a reason why Druid remains the king of support classes. Ironically, I feel like the WORSE a group is, the more effective Renegade support actually is, since those people actually need that much healing, but terrible groups will also be the least likely to stray off meta, since they tend to stick to the letter of snow crow's guides--even if they don't even understand WHY the things in the guide are the way that they are.

  • LucianTheAngelic.7054LucianTheAngelic.7054 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @aimz.6287
    @narcx.3570 said:
    Not saying Renegade shouldn't be taken, but there's a lot fo things to consider and there's a reason why Druid remains the king of support classes. Ironically, I feel like the WORSE a group is, the more effective Renegade support actually is, since those people actually need that much healing, but terrible groups will also be the least likely to stray off meta, since they tend to stick to the letter of snow crow's guides--even if they don't even understand WHY the things in the guide are the way that they are.

    This really is the crux of the issue, right? Meta groups only take 1 healer (druid) for both the buffs and the small healing. If a group is good enough to not need a second healer, then revenant would never be considered for that 1 druid spot. However, if a group needs a 2nd (actual) healer then pretty much anything other than druid is equal to or better, which is where Revenant/Firebrand/Tempest (and supposedly heal engi?) can really shine. You're totally right that most groups underestimate how good they are and would really benefit from having that second really strong healing option.

  • aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @aimz.6287
    @narcx.3570 said:
    Not saying Renegade shouldn't be taken, but there's a lot fo things to consider and there's a reason why Druid remains the king of support classes. Ironically, I feel like the WORSE a group is, the more effective Renegade support actually is, since those people actually need that much healing, but terrible groups will also be the least likely to stray off meta, since they tend to stick to the letter of snow crow's guides--even if they don't even understand WHY the things in the guide are the way that they are.

    This really is the crux of the issue, right? Meta groups only take 1 healer (druid) for both the buffs and the small healing. If a group is good enough to not need a second healer, then revenant would never be considered for that 1 druid spot. However, if a group needs a 2nd (actual) healer then pretty much anything other than druid is equal to or better, which is where Revenant/Firebrand/Tempest (and supposedly heal engi?) can really shine. You're totally right that most groups underestimate how good they are and would really benefit from having that second really strong healing option.

    That’s exactly what I was saying. I never said Druid was gonna be erased from the game. Thank you for putting it in other terms

  • @aimz.6287 said:

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

    @aimz.6287
    @narcx.3570 said:
    Not saying Renegade shouldn't be taken, but there's a lot fo things to consider and there's a reason why Druid remains the king of support classes. Ironically, I feel like the WORSE a group is, the more effective Renegade support actually is, since those people actually need that much healing, but terrible groups will also be the least likely to stray off meta, since they tend to stick to the letter of snow crow's guides--even if they don't even understand WHY the things in the guide are the way that they are.

    This really is the crux of the issue, right? Meta groups only take 1 healer (druid) for both the buffs and the small healing. If a group is good enough to not need a second healer, then revenant would never be considered for that 1 druid spot. However, if a group needs a 2nd (actual) healer then pretty much anything other than druid is equal to or better, which is where Revenant/Firebrand/Tempest (and supposedly heal engi?) can really shine. You're totally right that most groups underestimate how good they are and would really benefit from having that second really strong healing option.

    That’s exactly what I was saying. I never said Druid was gonna be erased from the game. Thank you for putting it in other terms

    I think some of the people that have responded to your two posts are likely confused on that point 😂

    But yep! Healer ren is Great

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @aimz.6287 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Becuz overriding alacrity stacks (resulting in downtime) and not as much group dmg increase potential as druid. That's why its not meta.

    Also lacks the utility of druid. Ie spirit ressing, search and rescue, and reliable - on demand - group stun break.

    Also buffs affecting 10 ppl, rather than 5.
    There is more CC on the Rev build, there shouldn't be any resing, and I never said get rid of a druid. I said instead of using 2 druids(which you've stated they can support 10 people so why use a 2nd how silly is that lol LUL?) u can use a Druid, Rev.. And its not like youre spamming alacrity and its causing problems to use alacrity its that its already implemented in the build. The way you think ''overriding alacrity stacks'' is fine... Theres nothing wrong with that if its implemented in the build.. That's like saying.. well if druid only gives out 25 might but imagine if rev could do 28 might is that overriding a certain stack... Get real dude.. That's sad for you to think that's negative. And I see where you are coming from with that point. ''Spamming alacrity skills makes less dps'' No sir... not at all... Venta support does ****MORE**** dps than a druid.. Ive never seen a druid hit over 5k yet in a raid group... They do 3k max.... a rev easily doubles that EASILY... If you took time to look into the build you would understand but you don't you just know what you never tried and that's nothing.. and you just use your silly statistics that your mad brain can only exceed and that's not much, and this isn't disrespect this is obvious. Revs rotation is CLEAN, 25 mights EASY perma regen EASY(DONT EVEN CLICK ANYTHING FOR IT) Perma protection from spirits, perma vigor and fury u get vigor from ur fury and ur fury is on critical hits.. and using ur heal skill which you use to heal the group? There is literally no struggle to using the boons you stack. Same with alacrity, you just use it from ur heal when the team needs heals and theres no spamming any boon to keep it alive.. your just HELPING the group... Chrono Mesmer could use, instead of using Improved alacrity for its SELF the chrono can use danger time to improve its OWN DPS making EVEN MORE DPS TO THE GROUP.. Cant do that with a druid.. these are the little things you miss because you mind can only exceed a certain level of imagination. I bet your the guy that goes on forums and complains to the devs that rev is totally botched and they need a desperate pickmeup because all you play in pvp is glint shiro typical meta and probably play renegade condi and that's the max you can exceed.. theres your overdrive. Maybe experience with it watch the youtube video read the metabattles build and try it out and then give your opinion and if you have your doing it wrong.

    You...do realise i play support renegade... right? This is why people aren't taking you seriously. Dont attempt to bash rev mains in the rev forum.

    You asked why its not meta. I answered based on the meta. The meta is 1 druid for a 10 man squad, not 2 druids.

    A support rev is a good pick for double healer squads but you grossly over estimate how many ppl actually play the revenant, especially how many (if the forum is any indication) aren't pvp exclusive... and even fewer than that, that would be willing to play support.

    Druids are just easier to find. Hell its easier to find a healing tempest than a actually properly geared support rev.

    You're right about the cc. Support rev does bring more cc than druid does (axe 5 staff 5 dark razor) but certain tactics and strategies for bosses are too ingrained to change that revolve on the utility (previously mentioned) that druid provides. The most notable of which being xera buttons spirit ressing.

    You also grossly over estimate the dps increase of the kalla elite. There was a post on Reddit a while back when fennec from qtfy made a build post of the support renegade, about the math behind the lifesteal damage increase. Long story short when accounting for uptime (50% at best) and averaging across all members of a given subsquad (chrono +2 weavers assumed for best case scenario) it ends as a meager 600-800 dps per player, or about 3-4k group dps. Not really all that much.

    To boot, it also doesn't have much in the way of Condi cleanse, which in certain scenarios is extremely important. Certain instabilities in fractals (afflicted and toxic trail notably, also SH and matthias crapping out poison and chill) negate a lot of the healing the builds brings.

    You also clearly don't understand how duration boons work and why its so important to not over ride them.

    Duration boons can only have 9 "stacks" at any given time, except in the cases of alacrity and quickness which cap at 5 stacks. So if you have 5 stacks of 8 seconds applied at once this means you would see 40s duration on the boon. However, if you apply another stack for, say 3 seconds, the first stack applied gets deleted, dropping the total duration from 40 seconds to 35. Keep doing this and you erase all the original stacks leaving you with 15 seconds as opposed to the original 40 seconds. See the issue now?

    One way to think of this is like layers. Take 5 layer labelled 8. Put a another on top labelled 3 then remove the bottom most layer. Do that 5 times and you're left with 5 layers labelled 3. That's exactly how the duration boon stacks work. You can wiki this for proof.

    If you're going to use this build you need coordinate with your chrono to make sure either a) you're not overlapping your boons or b) have them run the quickness- only rotation (which increases their personal dps too, which is nice; I've heard a rumor quickness only chronos can achieve 20k dps though i don't know the legitimacy)

    P.S. please learn to use some kitten spacing. Your posts are borderline illegible.

    P.P.S. kitten is with all the bashing dude? Seriously. You opened this thread for discussion. I'm creating counter arguments. How about instead of throwing a hissy fit when someone disagrees, you grow up and use it to re-evaluate your stance and strengthen your argument. Baseless insults only hurt yourself.

  • aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @aimz.6287 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Becuz overriding alacrity stacks (resulting in downtime) and not as much group dmg increase potential as druid. That's why its not meta.

    Also lacks the utility of druid. Ie spirit ressing, search and rescue, and reliable - on demand - group stun break.

    Also buffs affecting 10 ppl, rather than 5.
    There is more CC on the Rev build, there shouldn't be any resing, and I never said get rid of a druid. I said instead of using 2 druids(which you've stated they can support 10 people so why use a 2nd how silly is that lol LUL?) u can use a Druid, Rev.. And its not like youre spamming alacrity and its causing problems to use alacrity its that its already implemented in the build. The way you think ''overriding alacrity stacks'' is fine... Theres nothing wrong with that if its implemented in the build.. That's like saying.. well if druid only gives out 25 might but imagine if rev could do 28 might is that overriding a certain stack... Get real dude.. That's sad for you to think that's negative. And I see where you are coming from with that point. ''Spamming alacrity skills makes less dps'' No sir... not at all... Venta support does ****MORE**** dps than a druid.. Ive never seen a druid hit over 5k yet in a raid group... They do 3k max.... a rev easily doubles that EASILY... If you took time to look into the build you would understand but you don't you just know what you never tried and that's nothing.. and you just use your silly statistics that your mad brain can only exceed and that's not much, and this isn't disrespect this is obvious. Revs rotation is CLEAN, 25 mights EASY perma regen EASY(DONT EVEN CLICK ANYTHING FOR IT) Perma protection from spirits, perma vigor and fury u get vigor from ur fury and ur fury is on critical hits.. and using ur heal skill which you use to heal the group? There is literally no struggle to using the boons you stack. Same with alacrity, you just use it from ur heal when the team needs heals and theres no spamming any boon to keep it alive.. your just HELPING the group... Chrono Mesmer could use, instead of using Improved alacrity for its SELF the chrono can use danger time to improve its OWN DPS making EVEN MORE DPS TO THE GROUP.. Cant do that with a druid.. these are the little things you miss because you mind can only exceed a certain level of imagination. I bet your the guy that goes on forums and complains to the devs that rev is totally botched and they need a desperate pickmeup because all you play in pvp is glint shiro typical meta and probably play renegade condi and that's the max you can exceed.. theres your overdrive. Maybe experience with it watch the youtube video read the metabattles build and try it out and then give your opinion and if you have your doing it wrong.

    You...do realise i play support renegade... right? This is why people aren't taking you seriously. Dont attempt to bash rev mains in the rev forum.

    You asked why its not meta. I answered based on the meta. The meta is 1 druid for a 10 man squad, not 2 druids.

    A support rev is a good pick for double healer squads but you grossly over estimate how many ppl actually play the revenant, especially how many (if the forum is any indication) aren't pvp exclusive... and even fewer than that, that would be willing to play support.

    Druids are just easier to find. Hell its easier to find a healing tempest than a actually properly geared support rev.

    You're right about the cc. Support rev does bring more cc than druid does (axe 5 staff 5 dark razor) but certain tactics and strategies for bosses are too ingrained to change that revolve on the utility (previously mentioned) that druid provides. The most notable of which being xera buttons spirit ressing.

    You also grossly over estimate the dps increase of the kalla elite. There was a post on Reddit a while back when fennec from qtfy made a build post of the support renegade, about the math behind the lifesteal damage increase. Long story short when accounting for uptime (50% at best) and averaging across all members of a given subsquad (chrono +2 weavers assumed for best case scenario) it ends as a meager 600-800 dps per player, or about 3-4k group dps. Not really all that much.

    To boot, it also doesn't have much in the way of Condi cleanse, which in certain scenarios is extremely important. Certain instabilities in fractals (afflicted and toxic trail notably, also SH and matthias crapping out poison and chill) negate a lot of the healing the builds brings.

    You also clearly don't understand how duration boons work and why its so important to not over ride them.

    Duration boons can only have 9 "stacks" at any given time, except in the cases of alacrity and quickness which cap at 5 stacks. So if you have 5 stacks of 8 seconds applied at once this means you would see 40s duration on the boon. However, if you apply another stack for, say 3 seconds, the first stack applied gets deleted, dropping the total duration from 40 seconds to 35. Keep doing this and you erase all the original stacks leaving you with 15 seconds as opposed to the original 40 seconds. See the issue now?

    One way to think of this is like layers. Take 5 layer labelled 8. Put a another on top labelled 3 then remove the bottom most layer. Do that 5 times and you're left with 5 layers labelled 3. That's exactly how the duration boon stacks work. You can wiki this for proof.

    If you're going to use this build you need coordinate with your chrono to make sure either a) you're not overlapping your boons or b) have them run the quickness- only rotation (which increases their personal dps too, which is nice; I've heard a rumor quickness only chronos can achieve 20k dps though i don't know the legitimacy)

    P.S. please learn to use some kitten spacing. Your posts are borderline illegible.

    P.P.S. kitten is with all the bashing dude? Seriously. You opened this thread for discussion. I'm creating counter arguments. How about instead of throwing a hissy fit when someone disagrees, you grow up and use it to re-evaluate your stance and strengthen your argument. Baseless insults only hurt yourself.

    There not counter arguments. You sound upset. You go to LFG in the raid section and people are asking for 2 Druids.. static groups that really know what they’re doing use one Druid SOME I know plenty of guilds that still use 2 support.. so that’s why I got defensive because you do realize the majority like I said use 2 Druids for raiding. If you play support renegade then your doing it wrong to think Druid is more superior. It’s just frustrating to see a fellow rev bash it’s own class.. even though the rev build is really good.. how about stop complaining and giving me you false facts and prove to me tha Druids spirits are better than rev spirits. Then I’ll shut up. Because I won’t till I see the statistics and what I mean by statistics are the numbers based off of not having a Druid and the extra dmg it gives to the team and then revs spirits extra damage through out the whole game . If you cannot support this than your “fact” of Druids spirits are better is just false because this is you just speaking out of the air because you have nothing to back it up. Even snow crows can’t back it up. People just say it’s better because you could support 10 people. And that doesn’t mean it’s better just because you say that. What if revs elite spirit does give better dps to the team OVERALL and then you run 2 revs then you’ll never need a Druid again. You will when it’s a non stacking boss but when don’t you ever stack. If you’re good with the tablet then there should be no problems. Give me proof and numbers and I’ll be satisfied

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @aimz.6287 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @aimz.6287 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Becuz overriding alacrity stacks (resulting in downtime) and not as much group dmg increase potential as druid. That's why its not meta.

    Also lacks the utility of druid. Ie spirit ressing, search and rescue, and reliable - on demand - group stun break.

    Also buffs affecting 10 ppl, rather than 5.
    There is more CC on the Rev build, there shouldn't be any resing, and I never said get rid of a druid. I said instead of using 2 druids(which you've stated they can support 10 people so why use a 2nd how silly is that lol LUL?) u can use a Druid, Rev.. And its not like youre spamming alacrity and its causing problems to use alacrity its that its already implemented in the build. The way you think ''overriding alacrity stacks'' is fine... Theres nothing wrong with that if its implemented in the build.. That's like saying.. well if druid only gives out 25 might but imagine if rev could do 28 might is that overriding a certain stack... Get real dude.. That's sad for you to think that's negative. And I see where you are coming from with that point. ''Spamming alacrity skills makes less dps'' No sir... not at all... Venta support does ****MORE**** dps than a druid.. Ive never seen a druid hit over 5k yet in a raid group... They do 3k max.... a rev easily doubles that EASILY... If you took time to look into the build you would understand but you don't you just know what you never tried and that's nothing.. and you just use your silly statistics that your mad brain can only exceed and that's not much, and this isn't disrespect this is obvious. Revs rotation is CLEAN, 25 mights EASY perma regen EASY(DONT EVEN CLICK ANYTHING FOR IT) Perma protection from spirits, perma vigor and fury u get vigor from ur fury and ur fury is on critical hits.. and using ur heal skill which you use to heal the group? There is literally no struggle to using the boons you stack. Same with alacrity, you just use it from ur heal when the team needs heals and theres no spamming any boon to keep it alive.. your just HELPING the group... Chrono Mesmer could use, instead of using Improved alacrity for its SELF the chrono can use danger time to improve its OWN DPS making EVEN MORE DPS TO THE GROUP.. Cant do that with a druid.. these are the little things you miss because you mind can only exceed a certain level of imagination. I bet your the guy that goes on forums and complains to the devs that rev is totally botched and they need a desperate pickmeup because all you play in pvp is glint shiro typical meta and probably play renegade condi and that's the max you can exceed.. theres your overdrive. Maybe experience with it watch the youtube video read the metabattles build and try it out and then give your opinion and if you have your doing it wrong.

    You...do realise i play support renegade... right? This is why people aren't taking you seriously. Dont attempt to bash rev mains in the rev forum.

    You asked why its not meta. I answered based on the meta. The meta is 1 druid for a 10 man squad, not 2 druids.

    A support rev is a good pick for double healer squads but you grossly over estimate how many ppl actually play the revenant, especially how many (if the forum is any indication) aren't pvp exclusive... and even fewer than that, that would be willing to play support.

    Druids are just easier to find. Hell its easier to find a healing tempest than a actually properly geared support rev.

    You're right about the cc. Support rev does bring more cc than druid does (axe 5 staff 5 dark razor) but certain tactics and strategies for bosses are too ingrained to change that revolve on the utility (previously mentioned) that druid provides. The most notable of which being xera buttons spirit ressing.

    You also grossly over estimate the dps increase of the kalla elite. There was a post on Reddit a while back when fennec from qtfy made a build post of the support renegade, about the math behind the lifesteal damage increase. Long story short when accounting for uptime (50% at best) and averaging across all members of a given subsquad (chrono +2 weavers assumed for best case scenario) it ends as a meager 600-800 dps per player, or about 3-4k group dps. Not really all that much.

    To boot, it also doesn't have much in the way of Condi cleanse, which in certain scenarios is extremely important. Certain instabilities in fractals (afflicted and toxic trail notably, also SH and matthias crapping out poison and chill) negate a lot of the healing the builds brings.

    You also clearly don't understand how duration boons work and why its so important to not over ride them.

    Duration boons can only have 9 "stacks" at any given time, except in the cases of alacrity and quickness which cap at 5 stacks. So if you have 5 stacks of 8 seconds applied at once this means you would see 40s duration on the boon. However, if you apply another stack for, say 3 seconds, the first stack applied gets deleted, dropping the total duration from 40 seconds to 35. Keep doing this and you erase all the original stacks leaving you with 15 seconds as opposed to the original 40 seconds. See the issue now?

    One way to think of this is like layers. Take 5 layer labelled 8. Put a another on top labelled 3 then remove the bottom most layer. Do that 5 times and you're left with 5 layers labelled 3. That's exactly how the duration boon stacks work. You can wiki this for proof.

    If you're going to use this build you need coordinate with your chrono to make sure either a) you're not overlapping your boons or b) have them run the quickness- only rotation (which increases their personal dps too, which is nice; I've heard a rumor quickness only chronos can achieve 20k dps though i don't know the legitimacy)

    P.S. please learn to use some kitten spacing. Your posts are borderline illegible.

    P.P.S. kitten is with all the bashing dude? Seriously. You opened this thread for discussion. I'm creating counter arguments. How about instead of throwing a hissy fit when someone disagrees, you grow up and use it to re-evaluate your stance and strengthen your argument. Baseless insults only hurt yourself.

    There not counter arguments. You sound upset. You go to LFG in the raid section and people are asking for 2 Druids.. static groups that really know what they’re doing use one Druid SOME I know plenty of guilds that still use 2 support.. so that’s why I got defensive because you do realize the majority like I said use 2 Druids for raiding. If you play support renegade then your doing it wrong to think Druid is more superior. It’s just frustrating to see a fellow rev bash it’s own class.. even though the rev build is really good.. how about stop complaining and giving me you false facts and prove to me tha Druids spirits are better than rev spirits. Then I’ll shut up. Because I won’t till I see the statistics and what I mean by statistics are the numbers based off of not having a Druid and the extra dmg it gives to the team and then revs spirits extra damage through out the whole game . If you cannot support this than your “fact” of Druids spirits are better is just false because this is you just speaking out of the air because you have nothing to back it up. Even snow crows can’t back it up. People just say it’s better because you could support 10 people. And that doesn’t mean it’s better just because you say that. What if revs elite spirit does give better dps to the team OVERALL and then you run 2 revs then you’ll never need a Druid again. You will when it’s a non stacking boss but when don’t you ever stack. If you’re good with the tablet then there should be no problems. Give me proof and numbers and I’ll be satisfied

    Ok since were now talking specific to second healer slot. But since you didn't read my post fully...

    1) i already told you why ppl lfg a second druid as opposed to a rev. Much higher volume of druids compared to support revs is the number one reason imho.

    2) i already told you many strategies are fixated and reliant on skills that the druids bring: spirit resing for xera buttons, group stun breaking sloth break bars/ tantrums, orb pushing kc (beam doesn't get projectile blocked), golem pushing on souless horror (quick draw longbow knock back plus ancient seeds), aoe spirits on gorseval, immobilizing rigom on samarog, oil kiting for demos ranged strat (gs blocking). Read my next point.

    3) Dps isn't the only thing that matters. [LN] proved with a record speedkill on mursaat over seer that mirror comp firebrand plus support renegade is higher group dps than mirror comp chrono/druid. This is fact and not debatable. However. They also had a soulbeast with spirits and made a clear statement about the lack of utility brought by this comp and the lack of permanent 9 boons/ conditions which had serious detriments on some dps classes (weaver, and deadeye) which lead to an overall loss of dps on most boss fights as they could not utilize skills brought by the chronos and druids to bypass mechanics.

    This problem isn't simple. Its not just "druid spirits vs ren spirits". Theres a massive amount of depth to this issue you are blatantly ignoring as to why ppl don't typically pick it for the second heal slot.

    Support rev needs buffs, not in healing or group dps to be more optimal, but rather in its utility.

    Edit: i have no idea how to fix the formatting, from mobile at least. Sorry. fixed

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    I was thinking. What i think support rev needs.

    I would put pulsing aoe stability on dark razor. I wipe also change a trait in salvation line: GM2 (i forgot the trait name). Make it so this trait alters Energy Expulsion. Possibility dropping the Condi cleanse.

    Energy Expulsion. Gather energy in ventari's tablet and explode it, knocking back enemies and rooting them in place based on the energy used.

  • aimz.6287aimz.6287 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    I was thinking. What i think support rev needs.

    I would put pulsing aoe stability on dark razor. I wipe also change a trait in salvation line: GM2 (i forgot the trait name). Make it so this trait alters Energy Expulsion. Possibility dropping the Condi cleanse.

    Energy Expulsion. Gather energy in ventari's tablet and explode it, knocking back enemies and rooting them in place based on the energy used.

    No if it’s going to be optimal. They should make kalla a fervor 10 man giving superior ferocity to the group. And also make soulcleave 10 man and that would be that. It would make venta extremely superior

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @aimz.6287 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    I was thinking. What i think support rev needs.

    I would put pulsing aoe stability on dark razor. I wipe also change a trait in salvation line: GM2 (i forgot the trait name). Make it so this trait alters Energy Expulsion. Possibility dropping the Condi cleanse.

    Energy Expulsion. Gather energy in ventari's tablet and explode it, knocking back enemies and rooting them in place based on the energy used.

    No if it’s going to be optimal. They should make kalla a fervor 10 man giving superior ferocity to the group. And also make soulcleave 10 man and that would be that. It would make venta extremely superior

    I don't think that would end up making the support build more meta though in double heal comps.

    There's an altered Condi renegade rotation that uses mallyx and kalla and upkeeps kalla elite instead of using razorclaw and icerazor. It currently benchmarks at 29k.

    Since those changes aren't really attached to ventari in any way it wouldn't really make the full support build more optimal than it already is in double healer comps (like i said with spirits covered its already known to be higher group dps).

    I'm not convinced that support renagade needs more group dps, but rather more utility.

    Thats not to say 10 man buffs wouldn't help (although power creep is an issue to be weary of here), it's that utility buffs would help more.

    Stability on dark razor (relatively low CD) mean higher dps uptime and pressure off the chrono to aegis attacks like gorseval slams (also pulsing helps bosses like skorvaal on 100cm final phase).

    The immobilize also means you can do the job of druids too for samarog and gorseval (holding rigom and holding spirits during split phase).

    I think the druid should have better team wide downstate utility (ressing, downstate pulls) while the renegade would focus on that not happening to begin with.

  • Ooops.8694Ooops.8694 Member ✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Druids are just easier to find. Hell its easier to find a healing tempest than a actually properly geared support rev.

    And everytime lazy pugs decide to just stack healers @river you end up with about 4-5 heal revenants in the squad. :-D

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You're right about the cc. Support rev does bring more cc than druid does (axe 5 staff 5 dark razor) but certain tactics and strategies for bosses are too ingrained to change that revolve on the utility (previously mentioned) that druid provides. The most notable of which being xera buttons spirit ressing.

    Haven't seen spirit ressing in years, not to talk about the fact that with all the power creep nowadays crystals can be destroyed in one go easily.
    (And regarding your later post: same goes for aoe stunbreak @sloth, which is normally handled by a chrono's stability share (and guess who could share stability instead); i don't even want to talk about your mentioning of deimos... being able to equip a weapon with a block is a pro druid argument for you? seriously?)

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You also grossly over estimate the dps increase of the kalla elite. There was a post on Reddit a while back when fennec from qtfy made a build post of the support renegade, about the math behind the lifesteal damage increase. Long story short when accounting for uptime (50% at best) and averaging across all members of a given subsquad (chrono +2 weavers assumed for best case scenario) it ends as a meager 600-800 dps per player, or about 3-4k group dps. Not really all that much.

    And now factor in the dps increase of a fb over chrono for playing ren/fb instead of druid/chrono ;-)

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    If you're going to use this build you need coordinate with your chrono to make sure either a) you're not overlapping your boons or b) have them run the quickness- only rotation (which increases their personal dps too, which is nice; I've heard a rumor quickness only chronos can achieve 20k dps though i don't know the legitimacy)

    Ohh... now i see where all that's coming from... Ofc you don't run rev/chrono but renegade/fb to cover the same set of boons chrono/druid would. Fun fact: fb running a 100% quickness (and fury^^) uptime rotation does much more than 20k.

    @All
    Seriously... this whole discussion makes nearly no sense.

    There's only exactly one reason why druid is meta and people are looking for druids: Druids might-buff 10 people, renegades don't and the meta comp is build around a single (mostly condi) druid for most bosses.
    If pugs would stop brainlessly copying "metabuilds", then changing the composition to double healer for more carrying, everything would look completely different, because chrono/druid+fb/renegade is objectively much stronger than mirror chrono/druid.
    Now when was the last time you played in a pug not running that mirror?

    So what are you really trying to talk about? Is the druid the better choice as a single healer as the meta comp/builds suggest? Of course it is, because it's buffs are not limited to 5 people.

    But please don't bring arguments about the meta to a talk regarding a double healer setup (which pugs use ~99% of the time), because -as much as pugs like to fool themselves- this has nothing to do with the raiding meta.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited August 21, 2018

    @Ooops.8694 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    Druids are just easier to find. Hell its easier to find a healing tempest than a actually properly geared support rev.
    And everytime lazy pugs decide to just stack healers @river you end up with about 4-5 heal revenants in the squad. :-D
    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You're right about the cc. Support rev does bring more cc than druid does (axe 5 staff 5 dark razor) but certain tactics and strategies for bosses are too ingrained to change that revolve on the utility (previously mentioned) that druid provides. The most notable of which being xera buttons spirit ressing.

    Haven't seen spirit ressing in years, not to talk about the fact that with all the power creep nowadays crystals can be destroyed in one go easily.
    (And regarding your later post: same goes for aoe stunbreak @sloth, which is normally handled by a chrono's stability share (and guess who could share stability instead); i don't even want to talk about your mentioning of deimos... being able to equip a weapon with a block is a pro druid argument for you? seriously?)

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    You also grossly over estimate the dps increase of the kalla elite. There was a post on Reddit a while back when fennec from qtfy made a build post of the support renegade, about the math behind the lifesteal damage increase. Long story short when accounting for uptime (50% at best) and averaging across all members of a given subsquad (chrono +2 weavers assumed for best case scenario) it ends as a meager 600-800 dps per player, or about 3-4k group dps. Not really all that much.

    And now factor in the dps increase of a fb over chrono for playing ren/fb instead of druid/chrono ;-)

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    If you're going to use this build you need coordinate with your chrono to make sure either a) you're not overlapping your boons or b) have them run the quickness- only rotation (which increases their personal dps too, which is nice; I've heard a rumor quickness only chronos can achieve 20k dps though i don't know the legitimacy)

    Ohh... now i see where all that's coming from... Ofc you don't run rev/chrono but renegade/fb to cover the same set of boons chrono/druid would. Fun fact: fb running a 100% quickness (and fury^^) uptime rotation does much more than 20k.

    @All
    Seriously... this whole discussion makes nearly no sense.

    There's only exactly one reason why druid is meta and people are looking for druids: Druids might-buff 10 people, renegades don't and the meta comp is build around a single (mostly condi) druid for most bosses.
    If pugs would stop brainlessly copying "metabuilds", then changing the composition to double healer for more carrying, everything would look completely different, because chrono/druid+fb/renegade is objectively much stronger than mirror chrono/druid.
    Now when was the last time you played in a pug not running that mirror?

    So what are you really trying to talk about? Is the druid the better choice as a single healer as the meta comp/builds suggest? Of course he is.

    But please don't bring arguments about the meta to a talk regarding a double healer setup (which pugs use ~99% of the time), because -as much as pugs like to fool themselves- this has nothing to do with the raiding meta.

    Most of those are magi healers not Harriers, carried over from deimos hand kiters. Offensive buffs are not needed in those cases.

    Eh. I have several other posts in ths thread addressing your points. There is a quickness only chrono rotation that exists that lets you keep some of the utility you lose from fb/ren while giving mite personal dps to the chrono (~20k).

    The point op is making is about 2 druids vs druid and support rev, and as to why its better.

    He's arguing its better dps. I'm arguing its worse utility, effectively.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think arguing about Chrono/Druid vs FB/Ren through the vignette of PUG raiding is pretty pointless. Like, are you really willing to build a group with a support renegade and then sit in LFG for a hot eternity waiting for a Quickness FB to join? Even if you are, since they're pugs, are you willing to count on the FB and Rev to have their boon uptime sorted since it's such a niche spec? If their boon uptime sucks, are you willing to kick one and spend another hot eternity waiting for someone else to come along?

    @Ertrak.9506 nailed the issue right on the head by saying that there's a billion druids in LFG, and as annoying as it might be to LFG for a chrono, it's undeniably worse to try and find a Quickness FB and a Supp Renegade ready to go. And furthermore, you think that you'll be able to pug a 20k quickness only chrono? 99% of the chrono's in the pug scene don't even know what that is since it's not front and center on Snowcrows.

    Stick with what works and is easy to find, IMO... While it is cool to play off meta and unpopular builds, threads like this are kind of dangerous for new raiders or casual players who might read it, and then spend a ton of their limited resources gearing up a Support Renegade only to find that they can't get into groups. It's just unrealistic within the scope of the raid community to talk about how viable and great it is (even if it is), because probably THE most important part of your build is your ability to find groups.

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