Please fix game balance - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Please fix game balance

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  • Ranger will still be there if you cut that damage. You can easily switch to a boon spamming SB build (see PvP) and dominate roaming on this. There is at least three top roaming builds for rangers in the actual meta and only one relies on those high damage from max range.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well after the last update from here on out all gurds and there elite spec will have a 10 target support stab even if its a non support elite spec. On the same note every ele elite spec. will need to come with a passive hard cc counter in there line or they will have nothing.

    The balancing in this game seems all over the places with out any realty though of what going to come next. When there is a new elite spec set added in there seems to be a mad rush to "fixing" the core classes to be viable with the new elite spec with out any though of the old. There just no real planing it seems. Are anet workers part timer are they contractors temps i am just at a lost what to say about the lack of planing when it comes to balancing. Some one needs to make a real time line of buffs and nerf of classes to give ppl an easy view on just how crazy balancing is in this game.

  • I would be fine with Longbow Soulbeasts and their insane damage numbers, if ele staff would have the same range - and could be used on the move, like soulbeast. And ele would have the same armor.

    Ah, scrap that. just the same range would be enough tbh. LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    When some anet dev in their youtube vids says 'of course I play mesmer' you know everything you need to know, WHY this is all so broken.

    I die to more necro or rev skills than thieves, mirages or soulbeasts. But I don't mind the first two - because I can actually fight back. Is it easy? Not always. Is it mind boggling hard? Sometimes. But it feels fair.

    There is nothing fair about thieves, especially stealth-and-on-shot-at-1.5k. There is nothing fair about unhittable mirages coming in from nowhere to hit for 20k+, there is nothing fair about unblockable soulbeasts shooting you down in a second from 1.5k. Nothing. Not balanced. Not fair. Not fun. BROKEN. I don't mind condi firebrands - they exist. I don't mind warriors, in all their stupid variants (I do think it is suspicious, that this class not only can block everything AND outrun everyone AND do decent damage, all at the same time, but... at least you see them coming - and going). I do not mind engis. Is holosmith a disgrace? Of course - btw, why do they get all the the nice visual effects, ele doesn't because of 'visual clutter'? But I do not mind them. But thieves and mirages need to go. And soulbeasts need a hit with the nerf hammer.

    I have a balancing idea: any time a mirages clone/illusion/whateveritiscalled gets destroyed by an enemy, the mirage has a 50% hit to its hp pool. That would be fun. A soulbeast attacks at more than 1k range? Divide the damage by 4. A thief is in stealth? Then he can not attack. A thief goes into stealth, in a fight? Then he can not shadowstep/blink/run.

    See? Easy.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

    The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.
    I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they turn around and run away from you until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

    The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

    In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

    Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

    When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

    Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

    Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

    But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

    No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

    Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

  • @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I would be fine with Longbow Soulbeasts and their insane damage numbers, if ele staff would have the same range - and could be used on the move, like soulbeast. And ele would have the same armor.

    Ah, scrap that. just the same range would be enough tbh. LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    When some anet dev in their youtube vids says 'of course I play mesmer' you know everything you need to know, WHY this is all so broken.

    I die to more necro or rev skills than thieves, mirages or soulbeasts. But I don't mind the first two - because I can actually fight back. Is it easy? Not always. Is it mind boggling hard? Sometimes. But it feels fair.

    There is nothing fair about thieves, especially stealth-and-on-shot-at-1.5k. There is nothing fair about unhittable mirages coming in from nowhere to hit for 20k+, there is nothing fair about unblockable soulbeasts shooting you down in a second from 1.5k. Nothing. Not balanced. Not fair. Not fun. BROKEN. I don't mind condi firebrands - they exist. I don't mind warriors, in all their stupid variants (I do think it is suspicious, that this class not only can block everything AND outrun everyone AND do decent damage, all at the same time, but... at least you see them coming - and going). I do not mind engis. Is holosmith a disgrace? Of course - btw, why do they get all the the nice visual effects, ele doesn't because of 'visual clutter'? But I do not mind them. But thieves and mirages need to go. And soulbeasts need a hit with the nerf hammer.

    I have a balancing idea: any time a mirages clone/illusion/whateveritiscalled gets destroyed by an enemy, the mirage has a 50% hit to its hp pool. That would be fun. A soulbeast attacks at more than 1k range? Divide the damage by 4. A thief is in stealth? Then he can not attack. A thief goes into stealth, in a fight? Then he can not shadowstep/blink/run.

    See? Easy.

    Some elementalist skills have long casting but they are very powerful.
    A ranger can not use all skills in movement "barrage" is a rooted skill.
    If ranger had more damage than elementalist it would have a role in the rearguard zergs, but the truth is that Barrage + Sic 'Em is significantly inferior to Meteor Shower elementalist.

    there are professions that play a better role in roaming and the same applies to zerging, anet may with the next expansion give an elite specialization that can allow classes like necro and elementalist to play the role of roamer in a better way without destroying mechanics of classes

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Turn on action mode, pretend gw2 is a fps game now.
    This game is never going to be reasonably balanced.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    Maguuma: Free ppt, come and get it!

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2018

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I would be fine with Longbow Soulbeasts and their insane damage numbers, if ele staff would have the same range - and could be used on the move, like soulbeast. And ele would have the same armor.

    Ah, scrap that. just the same range would be enough tbh. LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    When some anet dev in their youtube vids says 'of course I play mesmer' you know everything you need to know, WHY this is all so broken.

    I die to more necro or rev skills than thieves, mirages or soulbeasts. But I don't mind the first two - because I can actually fight back. Is it easy? Not always. Is it mind boggling hard? Sometimes. But it feels fair.

    There is nothing fair about thieves, especially stealth-and-on-shot-at-1.5k. There is nothing fair about unhittable mirages coming in from nowhere to hit for 20k+, there is nothing fair about unblockable soulbeasts shooting you down in a second from 1.5k. Nothing. Not balanced. Not fair. Not fun. BROKEN. I don't mind condi firebrands - they exist. I don't mind warriors, in all their stupid variants (I do think it is suspicious, that this class not only can block everything AND outrun everyone AND do decent damage, all at the same time, but... at least you see them coming - and going). I do not mind engis. Is holosmith a disgrace? Of course - btw, why do they get all the the nice visual effects, ele doesn't because of 'visual clutter'? But I do not mind them. But thieves and mirages need to go. And soulbeasts need a hit with the nerf hammer.

    I have a balancing idea: any time a mirages clone/illusion/whateveritiscalled gets destroyed by an enemy, the mirage has a 50% hit to its hp pool. That would be fun. A soulbeast attacks at more than 1k range? Divide the damage by 4. A thief is in stealth? Then he can not attack. A thief goes into stealth, in a fight? Then he can not shadowstep/blink/run.

    See? Easy.

    Some elementalist skills have long casting but they are very powerful.
    A ranger can not use all skills in movement "barrage" is a rooted skill.
    If ranger had more damage than elementalist it would have a role in the rearguard zergs, but the truth is that Barrage + Sic 'Em is significantly inferior to Meteor Shower elementalist.

    there are professions that play a better role in roaming and the same applies to zerging, anet may with the next expansion give an elite specialization that can allow classes like necro and elementalist to play the role of roamer in a better way without destroying mechanics of classes

    One skill, versus 5 skills that root you in place with long cast times. On top of that meteor shower loses 10% of its damage each time it hits someone where as barrage as does not. Also eles meteor shows base damage is lower than barrage starting off! My condi SBs barrage does a base damage of 2132 x 12, My full zerker Eles Meteor shower does a base damage of 1916 reducing each time it hits a target by 10%. So that argument of having more power but taking longer to cast goes out the window. Theres a reason eles are becoming less and less used for zergs(at least on my server, scourges are wanted more these days than Eles).

    Rangers even in full damage gear have more capability to survive and escape than a Ele built the same way. I play both, as much as i love roaming on my ele, its 1000% easier and more fun to do it on my ranger(either condi SB or power SB) simply due to what it can do all at the same time. Where as ele has to sacrifice everything to get mediocre damage.

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • Maybe you change server. Weaver is absolutely great in zergs and should still be #1 in damage done.

    Disciples of the monkey god [Apes]

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gebrechen.5643 said:
    Maybe you change server. Weaver is absolutely great in zergs and should still be #1 in damage done.

    Or maybe i dont, because the roaming is wonderful on my server and thats what i enjoy doing(plus perma outnumbered is great too).

    Ember Wandertooth(SB), Lucina Fallenflame(Weaver), Kianda Redpaw(Guardian), Kingslayer, Light in the Dark.
    Why Guild Wars is called Guild Wars

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I would be fine with Longbow Soulbeasts and their insane damage numbers, if ele staff would have the same range - and could be used on the move, like soulbeast. And ele would have the same armor.

    Ah, scrap that. just the same range would be enough tbh. LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    When some anet dev in their youtube vids says 'of course I play mesmer' you know everything you need to know, WHY this is all so broken.

    I die to more necro or rev skills than thieves, mirages or soulbeasts. But I don't mind the first two - because I can actually fight back. Is it easy? Not always. Is it mind boggling hard? Sometimes. But it feels fair.

    There is nothing fair about thieves, especially stealth-and-on-shot-at-1.5k. There is nothing fair about unhittable mirages coming in from nowhere to hit for 20k+, there is nothing fair about unblockable soulbeasts shooting you down in a second from 1.5k. Nothing. Not balanced. Not fair. Not fun. BROKEN. I don't mind condi firebrands - they exist. I don't mind warriors, in all their stupid variants (I do think it is suspicious, that this class not only can block everything AND outrun everyone AND do decent damage, all at the same time, but... at least you see them coming - and going). I do not mind engis. Is holosmith a disgrace? Of course - btw, why do they get all the the nice visual effects, ele doesn't because of 'visual clutter'? But I do not mind them. But thieves and mirages need to go. And soulbeasts need a hit with the nerf hammer.

    I have a balancing idea: any time a mirages clone/illusion/whateveritiscalled gets destroyed by an enemy, the mirage has a 50% hit to its hp pool. That would be fun. A soulbeast attacks at more than 1k range? Divide the damage by 4. A thief is in stealth? Then he can not attack. A thief goes into stealth, in a fight? Then he can not shadowstep/blink/run.

    See? Easy.

    Warrior isnt outrunning everyone for a long time, are you still playing vanilla? Maybe they outrun your ele, but guess who is faster than most warriors? Thief, most roaming soulbeasts, mirages with stealth in the mix and even holos with insane rocketboot range

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2018

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

    The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.
    I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they turn around and run away from you until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

    The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

    In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

    Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

    When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

    Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

    Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

    But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

    No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

    Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

    The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

    The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

    There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you kitten up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

    Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

    In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

    But in group play, particularly medium to large scale (15+), those three are completely useless. To me that seems a very fair trade. I'll gladly trade losing 1v1 matchups on rev for being essential for every group comp any day.

    Also imagine if they tried to buff rev so much in 1v1s that we could have a 40 percent chance against condi mirage. Rev would then be even more powerful in group play because it wouldn't even have a specific weakness anymore.

    In my mind the cost of trying to push every 1v1 matchup in the game towards 50/50 with the current solo roam meta would be unbelievable power creep at the group play level. It's just not worth it in my view. Then they'd have to try to rebalance everything at the group level and group level balance right now is actually pretty good so it's like don't fix what ain't broke.

    The obvious alternative would be to just nerf thief soulbeast and mirage but they're so garbage in every other setting it would basically leave them unplayed by anyone for anything.

    I think if you're gonna solo roam you just got to accept that if you play a rev or a necro you're gonna have a rough time and that's the way it should be because those two classes dominate the dps side of group play.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

    The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.
    I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they turn around and run away from you until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

    The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

    In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

    Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

    When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

    Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

    Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

    But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

    No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

    Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

    The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

    The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

    There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you kitten up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

    Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

    In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

    But in group play, particularly medium to large scale (15+) those three are completely useless. To me that seems a very fair trade. I'll gladly trade losing 1v1 matchups on rev for being essential for every group comp any day.

    Also imagine if they tried to buff rev so much in 1v1s that we could have a 40 percent chance against condi mirage 1v1. Rev would then be even more powerful in group play because it wouldn't even have a specific weakness anymore.

    In my mind the cost of trying to push every 1v1 matchup in the game towards 50/50 would be unbelievable power creep at the group play level. It's just not worth it in my view.

    The obvious alternative would be to just nerf thief soulbeast and mirage but they're so garbage in every other setting it would basically leave them unplayed by anyone for anything.

    I think if you're gonna solo roam you just got to accept that if you play a rev or a necro you're gonna have a rough time and that's the way it should be because those two classes dominate the dps side of group play.

    This isn't discussing zerg play, being good in zergs vs being good when solo isn't a tradeoff, when you log into WvW you generally have a good idea about the kind of gameplay you're planning to do. To counter that with a similar agument to show how absurd it is, necro does bad PvE damage so as a tradeoff it should be really good at smallscale roaming.

    Revenant isn't a bad solo class, it has decent matchups against a lot of the field and it has decent mobility. The point is that matchups similar to condi mirage vs revenant are bad for the game, 99/1 matchups are horrible. Revenant's weakness is that the sword's damage get split between targets (relevant vs mesmer and rangers mainly) and that it has very sub-par condi clearing, neither of these are in any way relevant weaknesses in a zerg, condis don't exist and why would you ever not run hammer there.

    I have never said every 1v1 should be 50/50, I have said we should try to have fewer 99/1 matchups. 60/40 or even 65/35 matchups are completely okay for a game to have.

    What makes a class good in different settings is fairly different, therefore you can push for example necro in solo/smallscale play where it doesn't excel without buffing or nerfing it in zergs. With the necro example you could
    Increase mobility (very little effect in zergs)
    Give a decent way to generate lifeforce that doesn't require you to hit enemies (as most of the good roaming classes rely on not getting hit already)
    Reduce/remove shroud degeneration.
    This is just some examples for necro that I thought of this very moment, other classes would need different changes.

    I do think all 3 of those classes should be nerfed. They currently make all other classes unviable in that setting, they all have more or less identical playstyles. They could remain strong options but shouldn't be so dominant that they make all other options utterly unviable.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

    The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.
    I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they turn around and run away from you until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

    The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

    In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

    Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

    When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

    Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

    Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

    But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

    No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

    Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

    The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

    The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

    There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you kitten up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

    Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

    In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

    But in group play, particularly medium to large scale (15+) those three are completely useless. To me that seems a very fair trade. I'll gladly trade losing 1v1 matchups on rev for being essential for every group comp any day.

    Also imagine if they tried to buff rev so much in 1v1s that we could have a 40 percent chance against condi mirage 1v1. Rev would then be even more powerful in group play because it wouldn't even have a specific weakness anymore.

    In my mind the cost of trying to push every 1v1 matchup in the game towards 50/50 would be unbelievable power creep at the group play level. It's just not worth it in my view.

    The obvious alternative would be to just nerf thief soulbeast and mirage but they're so garbage in every other setting it would basically leave them unplayed by anyone for anything.

    I think if you're gonna solo roam you just got to accept that if you play a rev or a necro you're gonna have a rough time and that's the way it should be because those two classes dominate the dps side of group play.

    This isn't discussing zerg play, being good in zergs vs being good when solo isn't a tradeoff, when you log into WvW you generally have a good idea about the kind of gameplay you're planning to do. To counter that with a similar agument to show how absurd it is, necro does bad PvE damage so as a tradeoff it should be really good at smallscale roaming.

    Revenant isn't a bad solo class, it has decent matchups against a lot of the field and it has decent mobility. The point is that matchups similar to condi mirage vs revenant are bad for the game, 99/1 matchups are horrible. Revenant's weakness is that the sword's damage get split between targets (relevant vs mesmer and rangers mainly) and that it has very sub-par condi clearing, neither of these are in any way relevant weaknesses in a zerg, condis don't exist and why would you ever not run hammer there.

    I have never said every 1v1 should be 50/50, I have said we should try to have fewer 99/1 matchups. 60/40 or even 65/35 matchups are completely okay for a game to have.

    What makes a class good in different settings is fairly different, therefore you can push for example necro in solo/smallscale play where it doesn't excel without buffing or nerfing it in zergs. With the necro example you could
    Increase mobility (very little effect in zergs)
    Give a decent way to generate lifeforce that doesn't require you to hit enemies (as most of the good roaming classes rely on not getting hit already)
    Reduce/remove shroud degeneration.
    This is just some examples for necro that I thought of this very moment, other classes would need different changes.

    I do think all 3 of those classes should be nerfed. They currently make all other classes unviable in that setting, they all have more or less identical playstyles. They could remain strong options but shouldn't be so dominant that they make all other options utterly unviable.

    I main rev and all I do is medium to large scale fights and I know that they can't change things for rev in small scale that wouldn't effect its strength in every other scale of play. Like if they buffed mallyx to deal better with personal condis then that would just be even stronger in group play. You may not think that there are condis in zerg play but I can tell you that there most definitely are and that Mallyx is still mandatory. Condi isn't just a problem in zerg fights because of damage but also because of soft CCs that will get your tail caught or get people stuck in bombs that they would otherwise be able to get out of.

    You're right that the sword doesn't matter in zerg play but honestly the problem for revs in 1v1 is the condis, not just the damaging ones like confusion and torment against a condi mirage but also the soft ccs like weakness cripples and chills and poisons against other things like rangers. If rev had decent personal cleanse the lost damage from a wayward precision strike wouldn't matter because you could actually sustain a fight. But I really dont care if I get 100-0 by a condi mirage in a 1v1 or get pew pewed down at 1500 by some speed rune soulbeast because it doesn't make any difference at the end of the day. It's like ok you can kill me 1v1 but I'm gonna roll you once I'm playing with my friends so who cares? The same can be said for necros like why does it matter if you can't solo roam on necro when necros are the dps backbone of every group in the game?

    I think if you really want to roam you should just accept that you're not gonna do it on a necro or a rev as effectively as you would on a thief or a soulbeast and just play thief or soulbeast and move on. That's what thieves and soulbeasts are actually good for and that's good. Everything has its place.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

    The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.
    I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they turn around and run away from you until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

    The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

    In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

    Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

    When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

    Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

    Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

    But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

    No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

    Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

    The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

    The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

    There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you kitten up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

    Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

    In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

    But in group play, particularly medium to large scale (15+) those three are completely useless. To me that seems a very fair trade. I'll gladly trade losing 1v1 matchups on rev for being essential for every group comp any day.

    Also imagine if they tried to buff rev so much in 1v1s that we could have a 40 percent chance against condi mirage 1v1. Rev would then be even more powerful in group play because it wouldn't even have a specific weakness anymore.

    In my mind the cost of trying to push every 1v1 matchup in the game towards 50/50 would be unbelievable power creep at the group play level. It's just not worth it in my view.

    The obvious alternative would be to just nerf thief soulbeast and mirage but they're so garbage in every other setting it would basically leave them unplayed by anyone for anything.

    I think if you're gonna solo roam you just got to accept that if you play a rev or a necro you're gonna have a rough time and that's the way it should be because those two classes dominate the dps side of group play.

    This isn't discussing zerg play, being good in zergs vs being good when solo isn't a tradeoff, when you log into WvW you generally have a good idea about the kind of gameplay you're planning to do. To counter that with a similar agument to show how absurd it is, necro does bad PvE damage so as a tradeoff it should be really good at smallscale roaming.

    Revenant isn't a bad solo class, it has decent matchups against a lot of the field and it has decent mobility. The point is that matchups similar to condi mirage vs revenant are bad for the game, 99/1 matchups are horrible. Revenant's weakness is that the sword's damage get split between targets (relevant vs mesmer and rangers mainly) and that it has very sub-par condi clearing, neither of these are in any way relevant weaknesses in a zerg, condis don't exist and why would you ever not run hammer there.

    I have never said every 1v1 should be 50/50, I have said we should try to have fewer 99/1 matchups. 60/40 or even 65/35 matchups are completely okay for a game to have.

    What makes a class good in different settings is fairly different, therefore you can push for example necro in solo/smallscale play where it doesn't excel without buffing or nerfing it in zergs. With the necro example you could
    Increase mobility (very little effect in zergs)
    Give a decent way to generate lifeforce that doesn't require you to hit enemies (as most of the good roaming classes rely on not getting hit already)
    Reduce/remove shroud degeneration.
    This is just some examples for necro that I thought of this very moment, other classes would need different changes.

    I do think all 3 of those classes should be nerfed. They currently make all other classes unviable in that setting, they all have more or less identical playstyles. They could remain strong options but shouldn't be so dominant that they make all other options utterly unviable.

    >

    I main rev and all I do is medium to large scale fights and I know that they can't change things for rev in small scale that wouldn't effect its strength in every other scale of play. Like if they buffed mallyx to deal better with personal condis then that would just be even stronger in group play. You may not think that there are condis in zerg play but I can tell you that there most definitely are and that Mallyx is still mandatory. Condi isn't just a problem in zerg fights because of damage but also because of soft CCs that will get your tail caught or get people stuck in bombs that they would otherwise be able to get out of.

    Any decent zerg can completely shrug off conditions, there's a reason even scourge runs power in zergs. If this isn't the case with your zergs then you need to reevaluate your comps. Buffing the clears of shiro for example would also have 0 effect on zerg play and is used by all power revenants in smallscale play.

    You're right that the sword doesn't matter in zerg play but honestly the problem for revs in 1v1 is the condis, not just the damaging ones like confusion and torment against a condi mirage but also the soft ccs like weakness cripples and chills and poisons against other things like rangers. If rev had decent personal cleanse the lost damage from a wayward precision strike wouldn't matter because you could actually sustain a fight. But I really dont care if I get 100-0 by a condi mirage in a 1v1 or get pew pewed down at 1500 by some speed rune soulbeast because it doesn't make any difference at the end of the day. It's like ok you can kill me 1v1 but I'm gonna roll you once I'm playing with my friends so who cares? The same can be said for necros like why does it matter if you can't solo roam on necro when necros are the dps backbone of every group in the game?

    So we're back to that weakness in one entire area of the game is compensated by strength in another? Especially zerging, I mean you could be viable in a zerg naked...

    I think if you really want to roam you should just accept that you're not gonna do it on a necro or a rev as effectively as you would on a thief or a soulbeast and just play thief or soulbeast and move on. That's what thieves and soulbeasts are actually good for and that's good. Everything has its place.

    That's one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen towards balance. There being only 3 classes all with the exact same playstyle being viable in smallscale is incredibly poor, it used to be better in HoT and even early PoF, so clearly the state can be better. Note that all those classes are also part of the most polarized matchups in the game, they are clearly a problem, by nerfing these 3 you would allow all 6 other classes a possibility to participate in smallscale fights in a much more relevant way.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • If you turn your back and run away from a ranger he'll hit you for more damage...stand and fight back...use dodge roll...use your skills.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Any decent zerg can completely shrug off conditions, there's a reason even scourge runs power in zergs. If this isn't the case with your zergs then you need to reevaluate your comps. Buffing the clears of shiro for example would also have 0 effect on zerg play and is used by all power revenants in smallscale play.

    Lol no they can't, you have to have people running proper builds and coordinating cleanses for that and even then it's still easy for people to get overwhelmed with condis. Yeah scourge runs power but the condi spam is still real and as I said it's not just damaging conditions that get you killed in zerg fights it's all the soft ccs. Mallyx is 100 percent mandatory for any guild group.

    Yeah they could buff shiro cleanse but then maybe they make rev cleanse so good it can kill mirage and ranger even in 1v1s and so rev kicks mirage and ranger out of the roaming meta and you're just fighting a bunch of revs instead of mirages. Better to leave rev with serious weaknesses imo.

    So we're back to that weakness in one entire area of the game is compensated by strength in another? Especially zerging, I mean you could be viable in a zerg naked...

    Yeah I think that's good balance. It's good that some things are strong in some areas of the game and extremely weak in others. Instead of trying to get every matchup to 60/40 or whatever just accept that some things are going to be completely garbage in some places and absolutely mandatory in others it makes for a better game imo. You might be viable naked against some trash pug zerg but against a guild group you're going to one push every fight guaranteed.

    That's one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen towards balance. There being only 3 classes all with the exact same playstyle being viable in smallscale is incredibly poor, it used to be better in HoT and even early PoF, so clearly the state can be better. Note that all those classes are also part of the most polarized matchups in the game, they are clearly a problem, by nerfing these 3 you would allow all 6 other classes a possibility to participate in smallscale fights in a much more relevant way.

    I'm just being realistic. You're also not talking about small scale, which I would say is 5-15, but more like solo roaming and maybe 2s and 3s because thief ranger and mirage are garbage against even a properly comped 5 man and it just gets worse and worse for them as the fights scale up. They're basically stuck ganking solos and flipping camps because none of them have enough sustain to even attempt an offensive fight. If anything those three need a buff to actually be useful in the real WvW fights so they're not constantly relegated to solo roaming and camp flipping.

    The other thing I guess I need spell out unfortunately is that 1v1s don't actually matter in WvW. They matter in spvp for side node fights but they're completely irrelevant in WvW. So it makes no sense to me to spend time trying to balance classes for WvW around 1v1 matchups in a game mode where they're not actually important. Easier to just stop playing your necro when you roam and learn to play mirage or soulbeast and just play necro with your guild.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Any decent zerg can completely shrug off conditions, there's a reason even scourge runs power in zergs. If this isn't the case with your zergs then you need to reevaluate your comps. Buffing the clears of shiro for example would also have 0 effect on zerg play and is used by all power revenants in smallscale play.

    Lol no they can't, you have to have people running proper builds and coordinating cleanses for that and even then it's still easy for people to get overwhelmed with condis. Yeah scourge runs power but the condi spam is still real and as I said it's not just damaging conditions that get you killed in zerg fights it's all the soft ccs. Mallyx is 100 percent mandatory for any guild group.

    Sry if your guild zerg can't clear enough that's on them.

    Yeah they could buff shiro cleanse but then maybe they make rev cleanse so good it can kill mirage and ranger even in 1v1s and so rev kicks mirage and ranger out of the roaming meta and you're just fighting a bunch of revs instead of mirages. Better to leave rev with serious weaknesses imo.

    So we should have bad balance because it might get worse by attempting to fix it?

    So we're back to that weakness in one entire area of the game is compensated by strength in another? Especially zerging, I mean you could be viable in a zerg naked...

    Yeah I think that's good balance. It's good that some things are strong in some areas of the game and extremely weak in others. Instead of trying to get every matchup to 60/40 or whatever just accept that some things are going to be completely garbage in some places and absolutely mandatory in others it makes for a better game imo. You might be viable naked against some trash pug zerg but against a guild group you're going to one push every fight guaranteed.

    Except that means you have less options in every gamemode. If someone asked me if thief/mirage/sb should get zerging exclusive buffs I would say ye (even if this might be harder to implement). Will every build be optimal everywhere, no, nor does that need to be the case but making more builds payable in more situations is positive.

    That's one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen towards balance. There being only 3 classes all with the exact same playstyle being viable in smallscale is incredibly poor, it used to be better in HoT and even early PoF, so clearly the state can be better. Note that all those classes are also part of the most polarized matchups in the game, they are clearly a problem, by nerfing these 3 you would allow all 6 other classes a possibility to participate in smallscale fights in a much more relevant way.

    I'm just being realistic. You're also not talking about small scale, which I would say is 5-15, but more like solo roaming and maybe 2s and 3s because thief ranger and mirage are garbage against even a properly comped 5 man and it just gets worse and worse for them as the fights scale up. They're basically stuck ganking solos and flipping camps because none of them have enough sustain to even attempt an offensive fight. If anything those three need a buff to actually be useful in the real WvW fights so they're not constantly relegated to solo roaming and camp flipping.

    Smallscale stops when you become a squad, kinda in the name of it...

    See above about buffs.

    These classes also happens to be excellent +1ers for already outnumbered fights, which is one of the main reasons why I dislike them.

    The other thing I guess I need spell out unfortunately is that 1v1s don't actually matter in WvW. They matter in spvp for side node fights but they're completely irrelevant in WvW. So it makes no sense to me to spend time trying to balance classes for WvW around 1v1 matchups in a game mode where they're not actually important. Easier to just stop playing your necro when you roam and learn to play mirage or soulbeast and just play necro with your guild.

    I think if we can improve one aspect of the game that clearly matters to me and several other people that would be beneficial to the game. I don't think 1v1s are much fun or even good quality gameplay but if you run solo (such as when your guild is asleep or refusing to WvW cause of the terrible state of it) it sadly is a lot of what you will find.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 23, 2018

    6 years in and people still don't get that they don't balance around WvW to any meaningful extent... (not that they could anyway without basically redesigning the trait, skill, weapon systems, etc).

    So balance, be it blobs, guilds or roaming will remain the joke it as always been and the game mode will remain the poor quality imbalanced "PvP" it is, aimed for casual players or players too bad to realise any different, nothing is going to magically change in that regard 6 years in, only get worse with the power creep.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Any decent zerg can completely shrug off conditions, there's a reason even scourge runs power in zergs. If this isn't the case with your zergs then you need to reevaluate your comps. Buffing the clears of shiro for example would also have 0 effect on zerg play and is used by all power revenants in smallscale play.

    Lol no they can't, you have to have people running proper builds and coordinating cleanses for that and even then it's still easy for people to get overwhelmed with condis. Yeah scourge runs power but the condi spam is still real and as I said it's not just damaging conditions that get you killed in zerg fights it's all the soft ccs. Mallyx is 100 percent mandatory for any guild group.

    Yeah they could buff shiro cleanse but then maybe they make rev cleanse so good it can kill mirage and ranger even in 1v1s and so rev kicks mirage and ranger out of the roaming meta and you're just fighting a bunch of revs instead of mirages. Better to leave rev with serious weaknesses imo.

    So we're back to that weakness in one entire area of the game is compensated by strength in another? Especially zerging, I mean you could be viable in a zerg naked...

    Yeah I think that's good balance. It's good that some things are strong in some areas of the game and extremely weak in others. Instead of trying to get every matchup to 60/40 or whatever just accept that some things are going to be completely garbage in some places and absolutely mandatory in others it makes for a better game imo. You might be viable naked against some trash pug zerg but against a guild group you're going to one push every fight guaranteed.

    That's one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen towards balance. There being only 3 classes all with the exact same playstyle being viable in smallscale is incredibly poor, it used to be better in HoT and even early PoF, so clearly the state can be better. Note that all those classes are also part of the most polarized matchups in the game, they are clearly a problem, by nerfing these 3 you would allow all 6 other classes a possibility to participate in smallscale fights in a much more relevant way.

    I'm just being realistic. You're also not talking about small scale, which I would say is 5-15, but more like solo roaming and maybe 2s and 3s because thief ranger and mirage are garbage against even a properly comped 5 man and it just gets worse and worse for them as the fights scale up. They're basically stuck ganking solos and flipping camps because none of them have enough sustain to even attempt an offensive fight. If anything those three need a buff to actually be useful in the real WvW fights so they're not constantly relegated to solo roaming and camp flipping.

    The other thing I guess I need spell out unfortunately is that 1v1s don't actually matter in WvW. They matter in spvp for side node fights but they're completely irrelevant in WvW. So it makes no sense to me to spend time trying to balance classes for WvW around 1v1 matchups in a game mode where they're not actually important. Easier to just stop playing your necro when you roam and learn to play mirage or soulbeast and just play necro with your guild.

    What changed that guild groups would even attempt to run mallix rev?

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Sry if your guild zerg can't clear enough that's on them.

    I didn't say we can't clear them I said Mallyx is mandatory for resistance and clearing condis at every scale of play above roaming and so any changes to Mallyx will trickle over into other scales of play.

    So we should have bad balance because it might get worse by attempting to fix it?

    Your idea of good balance and mine are very different. As I said before I think balance is building dominant unique strengths and exploitable severe structural weaknesses into classes that they cannot overcome on their own. This makes compcraft crucially important for guild play. It also means that at certain scales of play these strengths and weaknesses will be more or less impactful. So in the case of roaming scale, mobility and single target ranged damage are incredibly impactful but once you get into small scale or medium scale mobility and single target ranged damage become less and less impactful and 900-1200 range aoe becomes the meta. This is why necros, revs and weavers are the meta dps for small scale and up but why they struggle at roaming.

    Except that means you have less options in every gamemode. If someone asked me if thief/mirage/sb should get zerging exclusive buffs I would say ye (even if this might be harder to implement). Will every build be optimal everywhere, no, nor does that need to be the case but making more builds payable in more situations is positive.

    That's correct but I don't think build diversity is inherently good. The crucial thing to me for good balance to exist is that everything should have its own defined strengths and defined extreme weaknesses.

    Smallscale stops when you become a squad, kinda in the name of it...

    In this game "small scale" refers to 5-15. Squads can still be "small scale" in the context of a game mode where groups can and often do run 50+. You're talking roaming size.

    These classes also happens to be excellent +1ers for already outnumbered fights, which is one of the main reasons why I dislike them.

    Yes because they're mobile and that's what makes them impactful at that scale of play. +1 means absolutely nothing as fights begin to scale though.

    I think if we can improve one aspect of the game that clearly matters to me and several other people that would be beneficial to the game. I don't think 1v1s are much fun or even good quality gameplay but if you run solo (such as when your guild is asleep or refusing to WvW cause of the terrible state of it) it sadly is a lot of what you will find.

    Marginally beneficial I'd say.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SloRules.3560 said:
    What changed that guild groups would even attempt to run mallix rev?

    I will let you figure that one out as I think I've already said too much.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @SloRules.3560 said:
    What changed that guild groups would even attempt to run mallix rev?

    I will let you figure that one out as I think I've already said too much.

    Seriously, chrono had very little effect on incoming condies and before that NO ONE played mallix rev. So??

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SloRules.3560 said:
    Seriously, chrono had very little effect on incoming condies and before that NO ONE played mallix rev. So??

    No comment.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @SloRules.3560 said:
    Seriously, chrono had very little effect on incoming condies and before that NO ONE played mallix rev. So??

    No comment.

    Seriously? I am/was mesmer for [vi], i know what i'm talking about, but haven't played for real since Hybrid (leader) left.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Sry if your guild zerg can't clear enough that's on them.

    I didn't say we can't clear them I said Mallyx is mandatory for resistance and clearing condis at every scale of play above roaming and so any changes to Mallyx will trickle over into other scales of play.

    Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing)

    So we should have bad balance because it might get worse by attempting to fix it?

    Your idea of good balance and mine are very different. As I said before I think balance is building dominant unique strengths and exploitable severe structural weaknesses into classes that they cannot overcome on their own. This makes compcraft crucially important for guild play. It also means that at certain scales of play these strengths and weaknesses will be more or less impactful. So in the case of roaming scale, mobility and single target ranged damage are incredibly impactful but once you get into small scale or medium scale mobility and single target ranged damage become less and less impactful and 900-1200 range aoe becomes the meta. This is why necros, revs and weavers are the meta dps for small scale and up but why they struggle at roaming.

    Compcraft would still exist even if necro didn't suck without a pet firebrand and if revenant had a condi clear in shiro. It would just make smallscale combat less bad. Something you seem to be actively against for w/e reason. Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot.

    Except that means you have less options in every gamemode. If someone asked me if thief/mirage/sb should get zerging exclusive buffs I would say ye (even if this might be harder to implement). Will every build be optimal everywhere, no, nor does that need to be the case but making more builds payable in more situations is positive.

    That's correct but I don't think build diversity is inherently good. The crucial thing to me for good balance to exist is that everything should have its own defined strengths and defined extreme weaknesses.

    Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile.

    Smallscale stops when you become a squad, kinda in the name of it...

    In this game "small scale" refers to 5-15. Squads can still be "small scale" in the context of a game mode where groups can and often do run 50+. You're talking roaming size.

    Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here.

    These classes also happens to be excellent +1ers for already outnumbered fights, which is one of the main reasons why I dislike them.

    Yes because they're mobile and that's what makes them impactful at that scale of play. +1 means absolutely nothing as fights begin to scale though.

    Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true.

    I think if we can improve one aspect of the game that clearly matters to me and several other people that would be beneficial to the game. I don't think 1v1s are much fun or even good quality gameplay but if you run solo (such as when your guild is asleep or refusing to WvW cause of the terrible state of it) it sadly is a lot of what you will find.

    Marginally beneficial I'd say.

    Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing)

    Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support.

    Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point.

    Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot.

    I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics.

    Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile.

    If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably.

    Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here.

    There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+.

    Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true.

    Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs.

    Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game.

    Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing)

    Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support.

    Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point.

    Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot.

    I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics.

    Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile.

    If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably.

    Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here.

    There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+.

    Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true.

    Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs.

    Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game.

    Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here.

    Kindly allow me to chip in.
    I think that claiming revs as weak to condis is not accurate anymore after the runes/sigils patch changes.

    I've fought revs who run cleansing sigils and runes of resistance and they put up a hell of a fight against condi classes. One even beat my condi necro using a glint/jalis build. I would say the fight was 60/40 in my favour but I got outplayed by him and lost.

    I think revs on the whole needs to rethink their builds with all the new condi clear tools available because I don't think they are as weak to condi as they were before the patch.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    Clearly the most utilized professions in this gamemode.
    Every commander wants their squad full of 'em. =)

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true.

    Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs.

    Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing)

    Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support.

    Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point.

    Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot.

    I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics.

    Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile.

    If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably.

    Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here.

    There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+.

    Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true.

    Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs.

    Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game.

    Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here.

    Kindly allow me to chip in.
    I think that claiming revs as weak to condis is not accurate anymore after the runes/sigils patch changes.

    I've fought revs who run cleansing sigils and runes of resistance and they put up a hell of a fight against condi classes. One even beat my condi necro using a glint/jalis build. I would say the fight was 60/40 in my favour but I got outplayed by him and lost.

    I think revs on the whole needs to rethink their builds with all the new condi clear tools available because I don't think they are as weak to condi as they were before the patch.

    The class itself is still weak to condi particularly shiro/glint builds as I said mallyx is mandatory for anti condi. Jalis heal is getting better since they reduced the time it takes for the clears to take effect. Still it's easy to get overloaded in a fight with no supports. Firebrand and rev team up very well in this regard.

    I don't consider runes and sigils when talking about class balance because those things are available to all classes. The thing to note about a build like that is how invested that dude is in trying to make up for the inherent weakness to condi.

    To me that's what balance is supposed to look like. And the rev will still be at a disadvantage against scourge even after the dhuumfire nerf and probably at an even greater disadvantage against a condi mirage. As long as that stays the case i think rev is in a good place. Necros however should always lose to range and mobility though those are its defined weaknesses and I think it should stay that way because of how strong the class is in other areas.

  • @aspirine.6852 said:
    I think scaling down the damage in WvW a bit would make for more longer lasting fights. But it would also be needed to cut back on the healing a lot.

    Not a bit. A lot. All damage down to 1/3, and all healing down to 1/5.

    Also, disable out of combat healing altogether. Instead of that, put healing objects like fountains on controlled objectives, that have to be built with supply, and can only be used while out of combat.

    And of course, disabling effects should give people a short duration of a stacking stun resistance that converts into a short stun immunity if it gets too high. So CC gets spammed too much against one target, they get an automatic stun break and become temporarily immune to CC for 0.75s or so.

    If this was tested in a weeked event, I can guarantee fights would be way more enjoyable for anyone who hasn't gotten used to exploiting gimmicky builds to kill unsuspecting newbies faster than their computers can load enemy models.

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    Clearly the most utilized professions in this gamemode.
    Every commander wants their squad full of 'em. =)

    Not being good in zerg fights is no excuse for being op in roaming. On the opposite, its also not good that these classes are unwanted in zerg fights. But you cant compensate it like this.

  • Anet balances the game around raids, that's the problem. They can only skill split so much. The game would have far far better balance if raids didn't exist.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2018

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    Clearly the most utilized professions in this gamemode.
    Every commander wants their squad full of 'em. =)

    Not being good in zerg fights is no excuse for being op in roaming. On the opposite, its also not good that these classes are unwanted in zerg fights. But you cant compensate it like this.

    These professions are built around being productive and survivable in small scale scenarios which is exactly a counterbalance to their lack of contribution to larger fights. Read Israel's posts, I'm not going to rehash it. That said, I don't agree with one/two-shot or perma-lockdown builds in general, but if you see someone you go into the fight knowing what their profession is capable of.

    Nobody likes fighting Maguuma certain professions. But instead of talking about how "op" rangers, thieves and mesmers are perhaps giving suggestions for reworks instead of straight nerfs would be more productive. There are nine professions in the game, not 4~5. Even then, Anet has told us their design philosophy on each profession and I doubt they'll shift their stance because a few "meta" players are tired of how potent certain pick professions are at being pick professions.

    edit- I might a little bitter -- people in discord were kitten last night about longbow damage during a guild rally, then 5 minutes later we wiped and the first thing out of the driver's mouth was "Kovu, get off your ranger and bring a necro." (Yes, I understand why a necro would be wanted over a ranger, the timing just left me a little salty.) Rangers are basically schrödinger's profession, being in a constant state of being OP and useless. Thieves, too.

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    Anet balances the game around raids, that's the problem. They can only skill split so much. The game would have far far better balance if raids didn't exist.

    I mean thief and mesmer were broken op for roaming years before raids so it's not just the raids that make balancing difficult. The problem as I see it is that there are far too many options. Too many stat combos too many sigils too many runes too many too many food choices too many utilities too many traits that do too much too many skills that do too many things . Balance and complexity are naturally opposing forces and the farther they've gone down the path of increased complexity the harder it has been for them to balance it all.

    To their credit i think the game is actually the best balanced it's possibly ever been for team play in wvw. 7 of 9 professions have a place in the meta for everything other than roaming apparently. That's not too bad.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2018

    What else do you expect, they balance for PvE & PvP, not WvW.

    Balance in WvW has always been non-existent and that is for everything not just roaming. I mean look at the composition of any blob on the servers that win fights at nearly any time in the game's life (bar first few months) the class "balance" has always been absolutely laughable.

    Back pre-HoT when you had melee meta out of say 50 people you had 20 guards, that alone is ridiculous in a game with 8 classes (back then), then at the same time you had 3 classes that were considered completely useless (engy, thief, ranger) and another that had a niche role as a veil-bot that you might want 2 of for your blob. You literally have single classes like guard (or now necro) taking more spots in a squad that 5 or 6 other classes combined, it is laughable, the worst balance I have ever seen in a game. Which is of course because bar the odd crumb thrown in WvW's direction, they don't balance for WvW.

    Same thing now, just playing a while ago, can you guess which two classes the comm asked for, I don't even have to say them do I. ;) Balance is that bad, which is of course one of the reasons WvW is in the state it is in (at least on EU), T1/T2 that has less activity that T4 used to have and that is with 6 servers in a matchup rather than 3.

  • @aspirine.6852 said:
    I think scaling down the damage in WvW a bit would make for more longer lasting fights. But it would also be needed to cut back on the healing a lot.

    @aspirine.6852 said:
    I think scaling down the damage in WvW a bit would make for more longer lasting fights. But it would also be needed to cut back on the healing a lot.

    I'm just shaking my head reading these comments, because this is what you all wanted in the first place. Now that we got it, you all want it rolled back now?

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2018

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    Clearly the most utilized professions in this gamemode.
    Every commander wants their squad full of 'em. =)

    Not being good in zerg fights is no excuse for being op in roaming. On the opposite, its also not good that these classes are unwanted in zerg fights. But you cant compensate it like this.

    These professions are built around being productive and survivable in small scale scenarios which is exactly a counterbalance to their lack of contribution to larger fights. Read Israel's posts, I'm not going to rehash it. That said, I don't agree with one/two-shot or perma-lockdown builds in general, but if you see someone you go into the fight knowing what their profession is capable of.

    Nobody likes fighting Maguuma certain professions. But instead of talking about how "op" rangers, thieves and mesmers are perhaps giving suggestions for reworks instead of straight nerfs would be more productive. There are nine professions in the game, not 4~5. Even then, Anet has told us their design philosophy on each profession and I doubt they'll shift their stance because a few "meta" players are tired of how potent certain pick professions are at being pick professions.

    edit- I might a little bitter -- people in discord were kitten last night about longbow damage during a guild rally, then 5 minutes later we wiped and the first thing out of the driver's mouth was "Kovu, get off your ranger and bring a necro." (Yes, I understand why a necro would be wanted over a ranger, the timing just left me a little salty.) Rangers are basically schrödinger's profession, being in a constant state of being OP and useless. Thieves, too.

    ~ Kovu

    I strongly agree with Brujeria that being good at one thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be good at another.
    Every class should have the ability to be efficient at a certain game mode and not just be good at some but restricted in others.
    I remember there was a post on the game's vision that we should be able to play any class we want in any game mode and I think that should involve having the option to be good at that mode.

    Elite specs are in fact a great way to address this issue as we can cater for different roles using the elite specs for each class.
    Unfortunately necro in general has never been given proper tools to fight ranged and mobile foes which hampers its roaming capabilities.
    The same applies for other classes who have never been given proper tools to find its place in a zerg/guild comp.
    I hope that changes in the next elite spec though.

    I do think the current boons application rework will help a lot in allowing more classes to find their spot in a zerg/guild comp.
    But we will have to see further on how this affects zerg/guild directions.

    Having said that, I made this video to show that necros can fight the current meta classes.
    Mesmers? Rangers? Thieves?
    Pfft, meet the Necromancer.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    Clearly the most utilized professions in this gamemode.
    Every commander wants their squad full of 'em. =)

    Not being good in zerg fights is no excuse for being op in roaming. On the opposite, its also not good that these classes are unwanted in zerg fights. But you cant compensate it like this.

    These professions are built around being productive and survivable in small scale scenarios which is exactly a counterbalance to their lack of contribution to larger fights. Read Israel's posts, I'm not going to rehash it. That said, I don't agree with one/two-shot or perma-lockdown builds in general, but if you see someone you go into the fight knowing what their profession is capable of.

    Nobody likes fighting Maguuma certain professions. But instead of talking about how "op" rangers, thieves and mesmers are perhaps giving suggestions for reworks instead of straight nerfs would be more productive. There are nine professions in the game, not 4~5. Even then, Anet has told us their design philosophy on each profession and I doubt they'll shift their stance because a few "meta" players are tired of how potent certain pick professions are at being pick professions.

    edit- I might a little bitter -- people in discord were kitten last night about longbow damage during a guild rally, then 5 minutes later we wiped and the first thing out of the driver's mouth was "Kovu, get off your ranger and bring a necro." (Yes, I understand why a necro would be wanted over a ranger, the timing just left me a little salty.) Rangers are basically schrödinger's profession, being in a constant state of being OP and useless. Thieves, too.

    ~ Kovu

    I strongly agree with Brujeria that being good at one thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be good at another.
    Every class should have the ability to be efficient at a certain game mode and not just be good at some but restricted in others.
    I remember there was a post on the game's vision that we should be able to play any class we want in any game mode and I think that should involve having the option to be good at that mode.

    correct every class should have a place in every game mode. WvW is a mode, roaming isnt. in that regard WvW is much better balanced than instanced PvE (raid/fractals).

    read this, become a better player now.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    Clearly the most utilized professions in this gamemode.
    Every commander wants their squad full of 'em. =)

    Not being good in zerg fights is no excuse for being op in roaming. On the opposite, its also not good that these classes are unwanted in zerg fights. But you cant compensate it like this.

    These professions are built around being productive and survivable in small scale scenarios which is exactly a counterbalance to their lack of contribution to larger fights. Read Israel's posts, I'm not going to rehash it. That said, I don't agree with one/two-shot or perma-lockdown builds in general, but if you see someone you go into the fight knowing what their profession is capable of.

    Nobody likes fighting Maguuma certain professions. But instead of talking about how "op" rangers, thieves and mesmers are perhaps giving suggestions for reworks instead of straight nerfs would be more productive. There are nine professions in the game, not 4~5. Even then, Anet has told us their design philosophy on each profession and I doubt they'll shift their stance because a few "meta" players are tired of how potent certain pick professions are at being pick professions.

    edit- I might a little bitter -- people in discord were kitten last night about longbow damage during a guild rally, then 5 minutes later we wiped and the first thing out of the driver's mouth was "Kovu, get off your ranger and bring a necro." (Yes, I understand why a necro would be wanted over a ranger, the timing just left me a little salty.) Rangers are basically schrödinger's profession, being in a constant state of being OP and useless. Thieves, too.

    ~ Kovu

    I strongly agree with Brujeria that being good at one thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be good at another.
    Every class should have the ability to be efficient at a certain game mode and not just be good at some but restricted in others.
    I remember there was a post on the game's vision that we should be able to play any class we want in any game mode and I think that should involve having the option to be good at that mode.

    correct every class should have a place in every game mode. WvW is a mode, roaming isnt. in that regard WvW is much better balanced than instanced PvE (raid/fractals).

    I prefer to see WvW as a big mode with many small modes in there. Like Zerg guild party duo solo roaming.

    It is just like PvE is a big mode that has many small modes in there too. Open world story dungeons fractals raids etc.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2018

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    Clearly the most utilized professions in this gamemode.
    Every commander wants their squad full of 'em. =)

    Not being good in zerg fights is no excuse for being op in roaming. On the opposite, its also not good that these classes are unwanted in zerg fights. But you cant compensate it like this.

    These professions are built around being productive and survivable in small scale scenarios which is exactly a counterbalance to their lack of contribution to larger fights. Read Israel's posts, I'm not going to rehash it. That said, I don't agree with one/two-shot or perma-lockdown builds in general, but if you see someone you go into the fight knowing what their profession is capable of.

    Nobody likes fighting Maguuma certain professions. But instead of talking about how "op" rangers, thieves and mesmers are perhaps giving suggestions for reworks instead of straight nerfs would be more productive. There are nine professions in the game, not 4~5. Even then, Anet has told us their design philosophy on each profession and I doubt they'll shift their stance because a few "meta" players are tired of how potent certain pick professions are at being pick professions.

    edit- I might a little bitter -- people in discord were kitten last night about longbow damage during a guild rally, then 5 minutes later we wiped and the first thing out of the driver's mouth was "Kovu, get off your ranger and bring a necro." (Yes, I understand why a necro would be wanted over a ranger, the timing just left me a little salty.) Rangers are basically schrödinger's profession, being in a constant state of being OP and useless. Thieves, too.

    ~ Kovu

    I strongly agree with Brujeria that being good at one thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be good at another.
    Every class should have the ability to be efficient at a certain game mode and not just be good at some but restricted in others.
    I remember there was a post on the game's vision that we should be able to play any class we want in any game mode and I think that should involve having the option to be good at that mode.

    correct every class should have a place in every game mode. WvW is a mode, roaming isnt. in that regard WvW is much better balanced than instanced PvE (raid/fractals).

    I prefer to see WvW as a big mode with many small modes in there. Like Zerg guild party duo solo roaming.

    It is just like PvE is a big mode that has many small modes in there too. Open world story dungeons fractals raids etc.

    but its different.
    in WvW no matter what role you have, you share a common goal to win the match. a roamer, a scout, a zerg, a havoc group all do work towards the same goal just in different roles.
    yet in PvE OW, raids, fractals are all seperate. i do not complete a raid / fractal by fighting jokos army in istan.

    even if we see it similar.
    for balancing pve mostly raids/fractals are considered while dungeons and open world do not matter. in WvW mainly zergs are considered while roaming doesnt matter.
    in PvE one could actually split between instanced modes and open world, in WvW that would be technically difficult because how does the game know what 'small mode' you partake in?

    read this, become a better player now.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Brujeria.7536 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

    Clearly the most utilized professions in this gamemode.
    Every commander wants their squad full of 'em. =)

    Not being good in zerg fights is no excuse for being op in roaming. On the opposite, its also not good that these classes are unwanted in zerg fights. But you cant compensate it like this.

    These professions are built around being productive and survivable in small scale scenarios which is exactly a counterbalance to their lack of contribution to larger fights. Read Israel's posts, I'm not going to rehash it. That said, I don't agree with one/two-shot or perma-lockdown builds in general, but if you see someone you go into the fight knowing what their profession is capable of.

    Nobody likes fighting Maguuma certain professions. But instead of talking about how "op" rangers, thieves and mesmers are perhaps giving suggestions for reworks instead of straight nerfs would be more productive. There are nine professions in the game, not 4~5. Even then, Anet has told us their design philosophy on each profession and I doubt they'll shift their stance because a few "meta" players are tired of how potent certain pick professions are at being pick professions.

    edit- I might a little bitter -- people in discord were kitten last night about longbow damage during a guild rally, then 5 minutes later we wiped and the first thing out of the driver's mouth was "Kovu, get off your ranger and bring a necro." (Yes, I understand why a necro would be wanted over a ranger, the timing just left me a little salty.) Rangers are basically schrödinger's profession, being in a constant state of being OP and useless. Thieves, too.

    ~ Kovu

    I strongly agree with Brujeria that being good at one thing doesn't mean it shouldn't be good at another.
    Every class should have the ability to be efficient at a certain game mode and not just be good at some but restricted in others.
    I remember there was a post on the game's vision that we should be able to play any class we want in any game mode and I think that should involve having the option to be good at that mode.

    correct every class should have a place in every game mode. WvW is a mode, roaming isnt. in that regard WvW is much better balanced than instanced PvE (raid/fractals).

    I prefer to see WvW as a big mode with many small modes in there. Like Zerg guild party duo solo roaming.

    It is just like PvE is a big mode that has many small modes in there too. Open world story dungeons fractals raids etc.

    but its different.
    in WvW no matter what role you have, you share a common goal to win the match. a roamer, a scout, a zerg, a havoc group all do work towards the same goal just in different roles.
    yet in PvE OW, raids, fractals are all seperate. i do not complete a raid / fractal by fighting jokos army in istan.

    even if we see it similar.
    for balancing pve mostly raids/fractals are considered while dungeons and open world do not matter. in WvW mainly zergs are considered while roaming doesnt matter.
    in PvE one could actually split between instanced modes and open world, in WvW that would be technically difficult because how does the game know what 'small mode' you partake in?

    I feel it is not that right to say one of the mode matters while the others doesn't.
    All the modes do exist and a roamer scout havoc etc. contributes in their own way as does a zerg towards the goal of winning the match.
    A zerg that runs around fighting other zergs and taking structures is one way of winning a match.
    There is still need for scouts to call out enemy movement, defenders to hold structures, refresh siege and delay enemy attempts to take it, roamers to flip camps to cut supply or retake supply or to cut off enemy reinforcements.
    A zerg while making up the majority of the playing base isn't everything to winning a match.

    And there-in lies the challenge as you pointed out for WvW balance. Every small mode needs to be taken care of as much as possible. I recall a post or comment on stream by Anet and they were saying that they do balance around all scales of combat, from 1 vs 1 to 50 vs 50 (not the exact words but the gist is there).
    How then do we balance for all these small modes?

    I think the WvW modes can largely be broken down into two scales. Large blobs/guilds and Small parties/roamers/scouts.
    One needs boons and AOE support/pressure. The other needs mobility.
    To me, it feels like Anet is trying to mold each class into their own respective theme at the expense of their viability in different modes.

    • Thieve = single target stealthy mobile assassin killer.
    • Necro = slow AOE monsters that you don't want to go close to.

    I would suggest using the new elite specs to provide things that are lacking in each class instead of following their 'theme' so that each class has the option to build for the different modes that are present in the game.

    • For example, thieves who are strong at small party/roaming should get a new elite spec that gives more AOE support/pressure to make them viable in a zerg/guild comp. The new elite spec should not give thieves another single target stealthy mobile killer like deadeye/daredevil.
    • For example, necros who are strong in a zerg/guild comp should get a new elite spec that gives more mobility to make them vaible in a small party/roaming comp. The new elite spec should not give necros another AOE spamming slow close range monster like reaper/scourge.

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2018

    sure with more options in the form of new specs in the future, every profession can be made more versatile. what i do not what however is that the same elite spec is good at everything. i dont want a mobile stealthy aoe monster.
    but i think in the long run elite specs have to be more than just 1 traitline and can use all core, there has to be more splits in core traits/skills depending on elite spec you use, else the options for elite specs will be limited.

    the problem however i see is that often there are suggestion that want to balance specs that have good roaming tools to specs that have good zerg tools in regards to roaming. so there are people asking to cut mobile professions mobility to current necro level, wich would make them average at best for roaming and still not good in zergs. instead of asking necro to get a espec that trades AoE pressure for mobility (maybe with a 1h sword next)

    read this, become a better player now.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    sure with more options in the form of new specs in the future, every profession can be made more versatile. what i do not what however is that the same elite spec is good at everything. i dont want a mobile stealthy aoe monster.
    but i think in the long run elite specs have to be more than just 1 traitline and can use all core, there has to be more splits in core traits/skills depending on elite spec you use, else the options for elite specs will be limited.

    the problem however i see is that often there are suggestion that want to balance specs that have good roaming tools to specs that have good zerg tools in regards to roaming. so there are people asking to cut mobile professions mobility to current necro level, wich would make them average at best for roaming and still not good in zergs. instead of asking necro to get a espec that trades AoE pressure for mobility (maybe with a 1h sword next)

    True, as you said, because of how the core is like for different classes, it will ultimately be a huge challenge not to create an OP elite spec that is good at everything.
    But I'll leave that balancing act to the developers XD

    A Hermit's Tale - To The Edge of the Mists [Link Here]

  • Brujeria.7536Brujeria.7536 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    sure with more options in the form of new specs in the future, every profession can be made more versatile. what i do not what however is that the same elite spec is good at everything. i dont want a mobile stealthy aoe monster.
    but i think in the long run elite specs have to be more than just 1 traitline and can use all core, there has to be more splits in core traits/skills depending on elite spec you use, else the options for elite specs will be limited.

    Its a matter on how they do it, really. Look at the comparison of core necro and scourge foe example. Some traits are much better on scourge (dhuumfire, transfusion) and other traits are worse (basicly all "on shroud entry / exit traits) due to the individual cooldown on shroud and certain skills. One main problem the balancing of the current elite specs suffer from is: Elite specs only add for most classes. If lets say a mesmer also gets some negative feats for picking mirage (for example: Shatter cooldowns increase by 50%, or max number of clones is limited to 2) the things would be much different in both, gameplay and balance. If the core traitlines are good, and the elite spec adds something even better on top of it, things arent really balanced anymore. The only class that really gives something up if picking an espec is necro and to some extend ele and warrior.

    At the bottomline, each core trait line should be as potent as an espec line - the espec line could then focus on adjusting the playstyle, instead of fixing the core traits mistakes for a class and adding negative feats and weapons / skills that alter the playstyle.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I feel it is not that right to say one of the mode matters while the others doesn't.
    All the modes do exist and a roamer scout havoc etc. contributes in their own way as does a zerg towards the goal of winning the match.
    A zerg that runs around fighting other zergs and taking structures is one way of winning a match.
    There is still need for scouts to call out enemy movement, defenders to hold structures, refresh siege and delay enemy attempts to take it, roamers to flip camps to cut supply or retake supply or to cut off enemy reinforcements.
    A zerg while making up the majority of the playing base isn't everything to winning a match.

    Ok first of all the work load split is like 80/20 between the guilds/zergs and the roamers/scouts. So I think it is fair to say one matters much more than the other if you're actually talking about winning matchups. Sure scouting matters, building and operating siege matters, flipping camps matters etc etc. It just doesn't matter nearly as much as what the guilds/zergs do.

    Second of all the scouting/roaming type jobs can be done by almost any build for almost any class so it doesn't really matter what they're running, they're just tailing zergs and flipping camps like you can do that on almost any build.

    If your main goal as a server is winning matchups and only winning matchups you really only need a few decent scouts who understand how callouts work and how to read the map and everyone else in coms and on pin and commanders for every timezone who get people in coms and on pin. That's really all there is to this game if you're just talking about winning matchups.

    The roaming around ganking people, flipping camps stuff is fun don't get me wrong but largely irrelevant to the final outcome of any given match particularly as you get up in tiers.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Its very impractical in a game with professions as diverse as those in gw2 to expect every profession to have the tools available to contribute to all of the different roles with relatively the same degree as the other eight professions in each of the different "game modes" (an expression itself which is hardly defined to everyone's satisfaction).

    Also, @EremiteAngel.9765, what I took away from Brujeria's post is that they were suggesting that certain professions underperforming in the wvw meta is no excuse for them to overperform in small scale roaming (a sentiment I neither completely agree or disagree with), not that it'd be realistic for everyone to be equally good at everything. Such expectations are faaar beyond a pipe dream.

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭

    It sure would be nice if the devs could weigh in on this once in a while regarding their vision for WvW balance. For what it's worth, I much prefer 60-40 balancing compared to certain 99-1 matchups that currently exist.

    Too much of the latter has a chilling effect on all roaming and smallscale fights. If your non-dedicated roaming build stands only a 1% chance of beating a meta roamer, you're just never going to engage that fight. You're always going to run or waypoint or alt-f4. Then no one is having fun..

    It's better for everyone if builds are closer in power level, or at least stand SOME chance of winning an encounter assuming you outskill your opponent by enough.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:
    It sure would be nice if the devs could weigh in on this once in a while regarding their vision for WvW balance. For what it's worth, I much prefer 60-40 balancing compared to certain 99-1 matchups that currently exist.

    Too much of the latter has a chilling effect on all roaming and smallscale fights. If your non-dedicated roaming build stands only a 1% chance of beating a meta roamer, you're just never going to engage that fight. You're always going to run or waypoint or alt-f4. Then no one is having fun..

    It's better for everyone if builds are closer in power level, or at least stand SOME chance of winning an encounter assuming you outskill your opponent by enough.

    Nah you just don't engage it 1v1 if you think it's a bad matchup. Like I don't 1v1 condi mirages but I'll quickly plus their fight with someone else or engage them in a team fight when I know I have some support. You just gotta be smart about when and how you engage.

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