Please fix game balance

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they

turn around and run away from you

until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

Completely agree!

I add a personal opinion, OP is when a class can kill you with a single shot and have utility that allows it to survive if it fails its combination and try again, it is not the case of rangers that to get such high numbers must invest everything in that single attack and they will die if it fails.Having ranged builds with high damage that reward placement and not melee, I think it's more than normal in a game.

This^ take a way ranger damage and mitigation and it doesn’t compete with holo or mirage etc, fixes nothing and just further narrows players options to stand against the powercreep. If the nurf damage it should be across board in general,plus maybe give necro a way to sustain other than crap shroud is a sec hp bar mentality cuz it deff isn’t. Some blocks and inta tele on Wurm be a start

[schokelmei.8271]

Ranger will still be there if you cut that damage. You can easily switch to a boon spamming SB build (see PvP) and dominate roaming on this. There is at least three top roaming builds for rangers in the actual meta and only one relies on those high damage from max range.

[lodjur.1284]

@Israel.7056 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they

turn around and run away from you

until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

[Jski.6180]

Well after the last update from here on out all gurds and there elite spec will have a 10 target support stab even if its a non support elite spec. On the same note every ele elite spec. will need to come with a passive hard cc counter in there line or they will have nothing.

The balancing in this game seems all over the places with out any realty though of what going to come next. When there is a new elite spec set added in there seems to be a mad rush to "fixing" the core classes to be viable with the new elite spec with out any though of the old. There just no real planing it seems. Are anet workers part timer are they contractors temps i am just at a lost what to say about the lack of planing when it comes to balancing. Some one needs to make a real time line of buffs and nerf of classes to give ppl an easy view on just how crazy balancing is in this game.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

I would be fine with Longbow Soulbeasts and their insane damage numbers, if ele staff would have the same range - and could be used on the move, like soulbeast. And ele would have the same armor.

Ah, scrap that. just the same range would be enough tbh. LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

When some anet dev in their youtube vids says 'of course I play mesmer' you know everything you need to know, WHY this is all so broken.

I die to more necro or rev skills than thieves, mirages or soulbeasts. But I don't mind the first two - because I can actually fight back. Is it easy? Not always. Is it mind boggling hard? Sometimes. But it feels fair.

There is nothing fair about thieves, especially stealth-and-on-shot-at-1.5k. There is nothing fair about unhittable mirages coming in from nowhere to hit for 20k+, there is nothing fair about unblockable soulbeasts shooting you down in a second from 1.5k. Nothing. Not balanced. Not fair. Not fun. BROKEN. I don't mind condi firebrands - they exist. I don't mind warriors, in all their stupid variants (I do think it is suspicious, that this class not only can block everything AND outrun everyone AND do decent damage, all at the same time, but... at least you see them coming - and going). I do not mind engis. Is holosmith a disgrace? Of course - btw, why do they get all the the nice visual effects, ele doesn't because of 'visual clutter'? But I do not mind them. But thieves and mirages need to go. And soulbeasts need a hit with the nerf hammer.

I have a balancing idea: any time a mirages clone/illusion/whateveritiscalled gets destroyed by an enemy, the mirage has a 50% hit to its hp pool. That would be fun. A soulbeast attacks at more than 1k range? Divide the damage by 4. A thief is in stealth? Then he can not attack. A thief goes into stealth, in a fight? Then he can not shadowstep/blink/run.

See? Easy.

[Israel.7056]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they

turn around and run away from you

until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

[Revolution.5409]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I would be fine with Longbow Soulbeasts and their insane damage numbers, if ele staff would have the same range - and could be used on the move, like soulbeast. And ele would have the same armor.

Ah, scrap that. just the same range would be enough tbh. LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

When some anet dev in their youtube vids says 'of course I play mesmer' you know everything you need to know, WHY this is all so broken.

I die to more necro or rev skills than thieves, mirages or soulbeasts. But I don't mind the first two - because I can actually fight back. Is it easy? Not always. Is it mind boggling hard? Sometimes. But it feels fair.

There is nothing fair about thieves, especially stealth-and-on-shot-at-1.5k. There is nothing fair about unhittable mirages coming in from nowhere to hit for 20k+, there is nothing fair about unblockable soulbeasts shooting you down in a second from 1.5k. Nothing. Not balanced. Not fair. Not fun. BROKEN. I don't mind condi firebrands - they exist. I don't mind warriors, in all their stupid variants (I do think it is suspicious, that this class not only can block everything AND outrun everyone AND do decent damage, all at the same time, but... at least you see them coming - and going). I do not mind engis. Is holosmith a disgrace? Of course - btw, why do they get all the the nice visual effects, ele doesn't because of 'visual clutter'? But I do not mind them. But thieves and mirages need to go. And soulbeasts need a hit with the nerf hammer.

I have a balancing idea: any time a mirages clone/illusion/whateveritiscalled gets destroyed by an enemy, the mirage has a 50% hit to its hp pool. That would be fun. A soulbeast attacks at more than 1k range? Divide the damage by 4. A thief is in stealth? Then he can not attack. A thief goes into stealth, in a fight? Then he can not shadowstep/blink/run.

See? Easy.

Some elementalist skills have long casting but they are very powerful.A ranger can not use all skills in movement "barrage" is a rooted skill.If ranger had more damage than elementalist it would have a role in the rearguard zergs, but the truth is that Barrage + Sic 'Em is significantly inferior to Meteor Shower elementalist.

there are professions that play a better role in roaming and the same applies to zerging, anet may with the next expansion give an elite specialization that can allow classes like necro and elementalist to play the role of roamer in a better way without destroying mechanics of classes

[XenesisII.1540]

Turn on action mode, pretend gw2 is a fps game now.This game is never going to be reasonably balanced.

[Dante.1763]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I would be fine with Longbow Soulbeasts and their insane damage numbers, if ele staff would have the same range - and could be used on the move, like soulbeast. And ele would have the same armor.

Ah, scrap that. just the same range would be enough tbh. LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

When some anet dev in their youtube vids says 'of course I play mesmer' you know everything you need to know, WHY this is all so broken.

I die to more necro or rev skills than thieves, mirages or soulbeasts. But I don't mind the first two - because I can actually fight back. Is it easy? Not always. Is it mind boggling hard? Sometimes. But it feels fair.

There is nothing fair about thieves, especially stealth-and-on-shot-at-1.5k. There is nothing fair about unhittable mirages coming in from nowhere to hit for 20k+, there is nothing fair about unblockable soulbeasts shooting you down in a second from 1.5k. Nothing. Not balanced. Not fair. Not fun. BROKEN. I don't mind condi firebrands - they exist. I don't mind warriors, in all their stupid variants (I do think it is suspicious, that this class not only can block everything AND outrun everyone AND do decent damage, all at the same time, but... at least you see them coming - and going). I do not mind engis. Is holosmith a disgrace? Of course - btw, why do they get all the the nice visual effects, ele doesn't because of 'visual clutter'? But I do not mind them. But thieves and mirages need to go. And soulbeasts need a hit with the nerf hammer.

I have a balancing idea: any time a mirages clone/illusion/whateveritiscalled gets destroyed by an enemy, the mirage has a 50% hit to its hp pool. That would be fun. A soulbeast attacks at more than 1k range? Divide the damage by 4. A thief is in stealth? Then he can not attack. A thief goes into stealth, in a fight? Then he can not shadowstep/blink/run.

See? Easy.

Some elementalist skills have long casting but they are very powerful.A ranger can not use all skills in movement "barrage" is a rooted skill.If ranger had more damage than elementalist it would have a role in the rearguard zergs, but the truth is that Barrage + Sic 'Em is significantly inferior to Meteor Shower elementalist.

there are professions that play a better role in roaming and the same applies to zerging, anet may with the next expansion give an elite specialization that can allow classes like necro and elementalist to play the role of roamer in a better way without destroying mechanics of classes

One skill, versus 5 skills that root you in place with long cast times. On top of that meteor shower loses 10% of its damage each time it hits someone where as barrage as does not. Also eles meteor shows base damage is lower than barrage starting off! My condi SBs barrage does a base damage of 2132 x 12, My full zerker Eles Meteor shower does a base damage of 1916 reducing each time it hits a target by 10%. So that argument of having more power but taking longer to cast goes out the window. Theres a reason eles are becoming less and less used for zergs(at least on my server, scourges are wanted more these days than Eles).

Rangers even in full damage gear have more capability to survive and escape than a Ele built the same way. I play both, as much as i love roaming on my ele, its 1000% easier and more fun to do it on my ranger(either condi SB or power SB) simply due to what it can do all at the same time. Where as ele has to sacrifice everything to get mediocre damage.

[schokelmei.8271]

Maybe you change server. Weaver is absolutely great in zergs and should still be #1 in damage done.

[Dante.1763]

@gebrechen.5643 said:Maybe you change server. Weaver is absolutely great in zergs and should still be #1 in damage done.

Or maybe i dont, because the roaming is wonderful on my server and thats what i enjoy doing(plus perma outnumbered is great too).

[RedShark.9548]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I would be fine with Longbow Soulbeasts and their insane damage numbers, if ele staff would have the same range - and could be used on the move, like soulbeast. And ele would have the same armor.

Ah, scrap that. just the same range would be enough tbh. LB Soulbeasts, Burst Mirages, Deadeyes - anets pet classes. 'nuff said.

When some anet dev in their youtube vids says 'of course I play mesmer' you know everything you need to know, WHY this is all so broken.

I die to more necro or rev skills than thieves, mirages or soulbeasts. But I don't mind the first two - because I can actually fight back. Is it easy? Not always. Is it mind boggling hard? Sometimes. But it feels fair.

There is nothing fair about thieves, especially stealth-and-on-shot-at-1.5k. There is nothing fair about unhittable mirages coming in from nowhere to hit for 20k+, there is nothing fair about unblockable soulbeasts shooting you down in a second from 1.5k. Nothing. Not balanced. Not fair. Not fun. BROKEN. I don't mind condi firebrands - they exist. I don't mind warriors, in all their stupid variants (I do think it is suspicious, that this class not only can block everything AND outrun everyone AND do decent damage, all at the same time, but... at least you see them coming - and going). I do not mind engis. Is holosmith a disgrace? Of course - btw, why do they get all the the nice visual effects, ele doesn't because of 'visual clutter'? But I do not mind them. But thieves and mirages need to go. And soulbeasts need a hit with the nerf hammer.

I have a balancing idea: any time a mirages clone/illusion/whateveritiscalled gets destroyed by an enemy, the mirage has a 50% hit to its hp pool. That would be fun. A soulbeast attacks at more than 1k range? Divide the damage by 4. A thief is in stealth? Then he can not attack. A thief goes into stealth, in a fight? Then he can not shadowstep/blink/run.

See? Easy.

Warrior isnt outrunning everyone for a long time, are you still playing vanilla? Maybe they outrun your ele, but guess who is faster than most warriors? Thief, most roaming soulbeasts, mirages with stealth in the mix and even holos with insane rocketboot range

[lodjur.1284]

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they

turn around and run away from you

until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you fuck up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

[Israel.7056]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they

turn around and run away from you

until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you kitten up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

But in group play, particularly medium to large scale (15+), those three are completely useless. To me that seems a very fair trade. I'll gladly trade losing 1v1 matchups on rev for being essential for every group comp any day.

Also imagine if they tried to buff rev so much in 1v1s that we could have a 40 percent chance against condi mirage. Rev would then be even more powerful in group play because it wouldn't even have a specific weakness anymore.

In my mind the cost of trying to push every 1v1 matchup in the game towards 50/50 with the current solo roam meta would be unbelievable power creep at the group play level. It's just not worth it in my view. Then they'd have to try to rebalance everything at the group level and group level balance right now is actually pretty good so it's like don't fix what ain't broke.

The obvious alternative would be to just nerf thief soulbeast and mirage but they're so garbage in every other setting it would basically leave them unplayed by anyone for anything.

I think if you're gonna solo roam you just got to accept that if you play a rev or a necro you're gonna have a rough time and that's the way it should be because those two classes dominate the dps side of group play.

[lodjur.1284]

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they

turn around and run away from you

until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you kitten up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

But in group play, particularly medium to large scale (15+) those three are completely useless. To me that seems a very fair trade. I'll gladly trade losing 1v1 matchups on rev for being essential for every group comp any day.

Also imagine if they tried to buff rev so much in 1v1s that we could have a 40 percent chance against condi mirage 1v1. Rev would then be even more powerful in group play because it wouldn't even have a specific weakness anymore.

In my mind the cost of trying to push every 1v1 matchup in the game towards 50/50 would be unbelievable power creep at the group play level. It's just not worth it in my view.

The obvious alternative would be to just nerf thief soulbeast and mirage but they're so garbage in every other setting it would basically leave them unplayed by anyone for anything.

I think if you're gonna solo roam you just got to accept that if you play a rev or a necro you're gonna have a rough time and that's the way it should be because those two classes dominate the dps side of group play.

This isn't discussing zerg play, being good in zergs vs being good when solo isn't a tradeoff, when you log into WvW you generally have a good idea about the kind of gameplay you're planning to do. To counter that with a similar agument to show how absurd it is, necro does bad PvE damage so as a tradeoff it should be really good at smallscale roaming.

Revenant isn't a bad solo class, it has decent matchups against a lot of the field and it has decent mobility. The point is that matchups similar to condi mirage vs revenant are bad for the game, 99/1 matchups are horrible. Revenant's weakness is that the sword's damage get split between targets (relevant vs mesmer and rangers mainly) and that it has very sub-par condi clearing, neither of these are in any way relevant weaknesses in a zerg, condis don't exist and why would you ever not run hammer there.

I have never said every 1v1 should be 50/50, I have said we should try to have fewer 99/1 matchups. 60/40 or even 65/35 matchups are completely okay for a game to have.

What makes a class good in different settings is fairly different, therefore you can push for example necro in solo/smallscale play where it doesn't excel without buffing or nerfing it in zergs. With the necro example you couldIncrease mobility (very little effect in zergs)Give a decent way to generate lifeforce that doesn't require you to hit enemies (as most of the good roaming classes rely on not getting hit already)Reduce/remove shroud degeneration.This is just some examples for necro that I thought of this very moment, other classes would need different changes.

I do think all 3 of those classes should be nerfed. They currently make all other classes unviable in that setting, they all have more or less identical playstyles. They could remain strong options but shouldn't be so dominant that they make all other options utterly unviable.

[Israel.7056]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they

turn around and run away from you

until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you kitten up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

But in group play, particularly medium to large scale (15+) those three are completely useless. To me that seems a very fair trade. I'll gladly trade losing 1v1 matchups on rev for being essential for every group comp any day.

Also imagine if they tried to buff rev so much in 1v1s that we could have a 40 percent chance against condi mirage 1v1. Rev would then be even more powerful in group play because it wouldn't even have a specific weakness anymore.

In my mind the cost of trying to push every 1v1 matchup in the game towards 50/50 would be unbelievable power creep at the group play level. It's just not worth it in my view.

The obvious alternative would be to just nerf thief soulbeast and mirage but they're so garbage in every other setting it would basically leave them unplayed by anyone for anything.

I think if you're gonna solo roam you just got to accept that if you play a rev or a necro you're gonna have a rough time and that's the way it should be because those two classes dominate the dps side of group play.

This isn't discussing zerg play, being good in zergs vs being good when solo isn't a tradeoff, when you log into WvW you generally have a good idea about the kind of gameplay you're planning to do. To counter that with a similar agument to show how absurd it is, necro does bad PvE damage so as a tradeoff it should be really good at smallscale roaming.

Revenant isn't a bad solo class, it has decent matchups against a lot of the field and it has decent mobility. The point is that matchups similar to condi mirage vs revenant are bad for the game, 99/1 matchups are horrible. Revenant's weakness is that the sword's damage get split between targets (relevant vs mesmer and rangers mainly) and that it has very sub-par condi clearing, neither of these are in any way relevant weaknesses in a zerg, condis don't exist and why would you ever not run hammer there.

I have never said every 1v1 should be 50/50, I have said we should try to have fewer 99/1 matchups. 60/40 or even 65/35 matchups are completely okay for a game to have.

What makes a class good in different settings is fairly different, therefore you can push for example necro in solo/smallscale play where it doesn't excel without buffing or nerfing it in zergs. With the necro example you couldIncrease mobility (very little effect in zergs)Give a decent way to generate lifeforce that doesn't require you to hit enemies (as most of the good roaming classes rely on not getting hit already)Reduce/remove shroud degeneration.This is just some examples for necro that I thought of this very moment, other classes would need different changes.

I do think all 3 of those classes should be nerfed. They currently make all other classes unviable in that setting, they all have more or less identical playstyles. They could remain strong options but shouldn't be so dominant that they make all other options utterly unviable.

I main rev and all I do is medium to large scale fights and I know that they can't change things for rev in small scale that wouldn't effect its strength in every other scale of play. Like if they buffed mallyx to deal better with personal condis then that would just be even stronger in group play. You may not think that there are condis in zerg play but I can tell you that there most definitely are and that Mallyx is still mandatory. Condi isn't just a problem in zerg fights because of damage but also because of soft CCs that will get your tail caught or get people stuck in bombs that they would otherwise be able to get out of.

You're right that the sword doesn't matter in zerg play but honestly the problem for revs in 1v1 is the condis, not just the damaging ones like confusion and torment against a condi mirage but also the soft ccs like weakness cripples and chills and poisons against other things like rangers. If rev had decent personal cleanse the lost damage from a wayward precision strike wouldn't matter because you could actually sustain a fight. But I really dont care if I get 100-0 by a condi mirage in a 1v1 or get pew pewed down at 1500 by some speed rune soulbeast because it doesn't make any difference at the end of the day. It's like ok you can kill me 1v1 but I'm gonna roll you once I'm playing with my friends so who cares? The same can be said for necros like why does it matter if you can't solo roam on necro when necros are the dps backbone of every group in the game?

I think if you really want to roam you should just accept that you're not gonna do it on a necro or a rev as effectively as you would on a thief or a soulbeast and just play thief or soulbeast and move on. That's what thieves and soulbeasts are actually good for and that's good. Everything has its place.

[lodjur.1284]

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:Rather than put the blame on soulbeasts, I guess the most culpable factor is the necro's lack of mobility, not just to run, but to catch opponents.

The most obvious opponent that exploits a necro's lack of mobility is a Soulbeast.I've met soulbeasts who longbows you from far with knockback and rapid fire. Then when it doesnt kill you, they

turn around and run away from you

until their longbow cooldown is ready again then they turn back and try to knockback and rapid fire you again. Rinse and repeat until you die because even if you try to run in the opposite direction yourself, you can't outrun a soulbeast. Your only hope is LOS in the area that you can use, which isn't always available in WvW.

The sad thing is, this sort of skill-less gameplay employed by soulbeasts works on a necro and only a necro because there is almost nothing we can do to close the gap apart from some situational jukes which I will not post here because I still use them to kill less experienced soulbeasts who employ the above cheap tactics, and is the perfect example of the terrible lack of mobility on a necromancer.

In my view one of the goals of players should always be to try to remove the effects of skill as much as possible on any given outcome through the use of tactically exploiting weakness. So it's like this no matter the matchup your enemy is going to try to hit you where they think you're weakest regardless of class. You just happen to play necro so you get outranged but on rev it's people trying to overwhelm with condi or low CD ccs. It's not a design flaw to give classes exploitable weaknesses in fact I would argue that it's a mark of good game design when there are clear exploitable weaknesses that cannot easily be outskilled.

Well that just creates a rock-paper-scissor kind of gameplay. Rock-Paper-Scissor is one of the worst games I have ever played in my life, it should be used as an example of what to not aim for when creating games.

When matchups become very polarized you get into situations where you might as well not even bother trying, the game currently has quite a few of them, they're very harmful to the game as winning these matchups basically comes down to praying that your opponent is terrible as your own skill doesn't matter, this makes it so that you have little to no incentive to actually get better.

Soft counters are okay in a game, what is often called 60/40 matchups (as these at least involve trying to outplay you opponent even if you're slightly favored) in other games etc. Hard counters or 99/1 matchups (as these makes you hope your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected) only makes luck matter more than skill (am I playing a build that counters my enemy?).

Even when you're on the "good side" of a hard counter it is very boring as you win w/o any effort even if you play terribly

But what is the alternative? Everything is strong in roughly the same ways and everything has effective answers for every situation?

No in my mind the rock paper scissors model is a much better model for class design in an mmorpg. Mmorpgs aren't really about skill v skill they're about build v build or comp v comp at a group level. Accept that some 1v1s are just not worth attempting accept that your build matters as much or more than your mechanical skill and you will have a much easier time in pvp mmos.

Getting better in the context of this game means making better decisions about what to engage when to engage and how to engage and knowing when you're disadvantaged and learning to use tactics to even the playing field so to speak and this is true in pvp and wvw.

The alternative is soft counters, 60/40 matchups or whatever you want to call it. Matchups that are winnable when you're a lot better than your opponent, not some of the current ones like Necro vs Thief or Condi Mirage vs Rev where your best bet is that your opponent is a bot or gets disconnected or similar. The playing field doesnt have to be 100% even, there can be matchups that are "hard" they just need to not be hard to a degree where it is actually pointless to play them out, more like Condi Necro vs Power Berserker in HoT (won by warrior if even roughly similar skilllevel but still worth playing out).

The thing is there is space for both skill and builds to matter. Build vs Build is boring, as much as I love theorycrafting I play the game to well actually play, if the result of the fight is predetermined no matter how bad/good I play why bother, this is why I think duels are utter garbage. Composition is interesting because you can cover up each other's weaknesses, but these weaknesses can still be created in a better way. There is a lot of design space in the game to make it more interesting than a game that is essentially a coinflip.

There shouldn't be builds whose main idea is "The skill of my opponent doesn't actually matter" like Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage currently does (if you kitten up just reset until you win). The only real "counterplay" to these builds is just to stack more players (a terribly boring option as at least I go into completely braindead mode and spam 1 as soon as my group is big enough to need to be a squad) or completely avoid any fights that aren't in a small enclosed area (better but then you're very limited in how often you get any fights.....).

Try playing solo on anything that isn't Thief, Soulbeast or Mirage and you will see that you might not pick a fight with these classes, but they will pick a fight with you 100% of the time and reset on you until you finally get bored enough to slip up and die. There's no tactics to compensate for the massive mobility disadvantage you have against these classes as pretty much everything else. Even when you "win" the first time (force them to retreat) they just keep going, I have had players from these classes follow me for 30-45 minutes even swapping borders just to stay on me and poke me hoping for me to slip up enough to die to it, they are generally terrible but there is absolutely no way to punish them screwing up their 17th attempt at killing me (generally this is however when I have a healer with me as otherwise I do eventually die somewhere in the 10-20th try....). Something like making more mobility skills need a target to lower the accessibility of escapes would be a good start to fixing this.

In conclusion no build should ever have 100% control over what fights they choose to take and for how long, that creates a terrible environment for smallscale in WvW.

But in group play, particularly medium to large scale (15+) those three are completely useless. To me that seems a very fair trade. I'll gladly trade losing 1v1 matchups on rev for being essential for every group comp any day.

Also imagine if they tried to buff rev so much in 1v1s that we could have a 40 percent chance against condi mirage 1v1. Rev would then be even more powerful in group play because it wouldn't even have a specific weakness anymore.

In my mind the cost of trying to push every 1v1 matchup in the game towards 50/50 would be unbelievable power creep at the group play level. It's just not worth it in my view.

The obvious alternative would be to just nerf thief soulbeast and mirage but they're so garbage in every other setting it would basically leave them unplayed by anyone for anything.

I think if you're gonna solo roam you just got to accept that if you play a rev or a necro you're gonna have a rough time and that's the way it should be because those two classes dominate the dps side of group play.

This isn't discussing zerg play, being good in zergs vs being good when solo isn't a tradeoff, when you log into WvW you generally have a good idea about the kind of gameplay you're planning to do. To counter that with a similar agument to show how absurd it is, necro does bad PvE damage so as a tradeoff it should be really good at smallscale roaming.

Revenant isn't a bad solo class, it has decent matchups against a lot of the field and it has decent mobility. The point is that matchups similar to condi mirage vs revenant are bad for the game, 99/1 matchups are horrible. Revenant's weakness is that the sword's damage get split between targets (relevant vs mesmer and rangers mainly) and that it has very sub-par condi clearing, neither of these are in any way relevant weaknesses in a zerg, condis don't exist and why would you ever not run hammer there.

I have never said every 1v1 should be 50/50, I have said we should try to have fewer 99/1 matchups. 60/40 or even 65/35 matchups are completely okay for a game to have.

What makes a class good in different settings is fairly different, therefore you can push for example necro in solo/smallscale play where it doesn't excel without buffing or nerfing it in zergs. With the necro example you couldIncrease mobility (very little effect in zergs)Give a decent way to generate lifeforce that doesn't require you to hit enemies (as most of the good roaming classes rely on not getting hit already)Reduce/remove shroud degeneration.This is just some examples for necro that I thought of this very moment, other classes would need different changes.

I do think all 3 of those classes should be nerfed. They currently make all other classes unviable in that setting, they all have more or less identical playstyles. They could remain strong options but shouldn't be so dominant that they make all other options utterly unviable.

I main rev and all I do is medium to large scale fights and I know that they can't change things for rev in small scale that wouldn't effect its strength in every other scale of play. Like if they buffed mallyx to deal better with personal condis then that would just be even stronger in group play. You may not think that there are condis in zerg play but I can tell you that there most definitely are and that Mallyx is still mandatory. Condi isn't just a problem in zerg fights because of damage but also because of soft CCs that will get your tail caught or get people stuck in bombs that they would otherwise be able to get out of.

Any decent zerg can completely shrug off conditions, there's a reason even scourge runs power in zergs. If this isn't the case with your zergs then you need to reevaluate your comps. Buffing the clears of shiro for example would also have 0 effect on zerg play and is used by all power revenants in smallscale play.

You're right that the sword doesn't matter in zerg play but honestly the problem for revs in 1v1 is the condis, not just the damaging ones like confusion and torment against a condi mirage but also the soft ccs like weakness cripples and chills and poisons against other things like rangers. If rev had decent personal cleanse the lost damage from a wayward precision strike wouldn't matter because you could actually sustain a fight. But I really dont care if I get 100-0 by a condi mirage in a 1v1 or get pew pewed down at 1500 by some speed rune soulbeast because it doesn't make any difference at the end of the day. It's like ok you can kill me 1v1 but I'm gonna roll you once I'm playing with my friends so who cares? The same can be said for necros like why does it matter if you can't solo roam on necro when necros are the dps backbone of every group in the game?

So we're back to that weakness in one entire area of the game is compensated by strength in another? Especially zerging, I mean you could be viable in a zerg naked...

I think if you really want to roam you should just accept that you're not gonna do it on a necro or a rev as effectively as you would on a thief or a soulbeast and just play thief or soulbeast and move on. That's what thieves and soulbeasts are actually good for and that's good. Everything has its place.

That's one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen towards balance. There being only 3 classes all with the exact same playstyle being viable in smallscale is incredibly poor, it used to be better in HoT and even early PoF, so clearly the state can be better. Note that all those classes are also part of the most polarized matchups in the game, they are clearly a problem, by nerfing these 3 you would allow all 6 other classes a possibility to participate in smallscale fights in a much more relevant way.

[Sreoom.3690]

If you turn your back and run away from a ranger he'll hit you for more damage...stand and fight back...use dodge roll...use your skills.

[Israel.7056]

@lodjur.1284 said:Any decent zerg can completely shrug off conditions, there's a reason even scourge runs power in zergs. If this isn't the case with your zergs then you need to reevaluate your comps. Buffing the clears of shiro for example would also have 0 effect on zerg play and is used by all power revenants in smallscale play.

Lol no they can't, you have to have people running proper builds and coordinating cleanses for that and even then it's still easy for people to get overwhelmed with condis. Yeah scourge runs power but the condi spam is still real and as I said it's not just damaging conditions that get you killed in zerg fights it's all the soft ccs. Mallyx is 100 percent mandatory for any guild group.

Yeah they could buff shiro cleanse but then maybe they make rev cleanse so good it can kill mirage and ranger even in 1v1s and so rev kicks mirage and ranger out of the roaming meta and you're just fighting a bunch of revs instead of mirages. Better to leave rev with serious weaknesses imo.

So we're back to that weakness in one entire area of the game is compensated by strength in another? Especially zerging, I mean you could be viable in a zerg naked...

Yeah I think that's good balance. It's good that some things are strong in some areas of the game and extremely weak in others. Instead of trying to get every matchup to 60/40 or whatever just accept that some things are going to be completely garbage in some places and absolutely mandatory in others it makes for a better game imo. You might be viable naked against some trash pug zerg but against a guild group you're going to one push every fight guaranteed.

That's one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen towards balance. There being only 3 classes all with the exact same playstyle being viable in smallscale is incredibly poor, it used to be better in HoT and even early PoF, so clearly the state can be better. Note that all those classes are also part of the most polarized matchups in the game, they are clearly a problem, by nerfing these 3 you would allow all 6 other classes a possibility to participate in smallscale fights in a much more relevant way.

I'm just being realistic. You're also not talking about small scale, which I would say is 5-15, but more like solo roaming and maybe 2s and 3s because thief ranger and mirage are garbage against even a properly comped 5 man and it just gets worse and worse for them as the fights scale up. They're basically stuck ganking solos and flipping camps because none of them have enough sustain to even attempt an offensive fight. If anything those three need a buff to actually be useful in the real WvW fights so they're not constantly relegated to solo roaming and camp flipping.

The other thing I guess I need spell out unfortunately is that 1v1s don't actually matter in WvW. They matter in spvp for side node fights but they're completely irrelevant in WvW. So it makes no sense to me to spend time trying to balance classes for WvW around 1v1 matchups in a game mode where they're not actually important. Easier to just stop playing your necro when you roam and learn to play mirage or soulbeast and just play necro with your guild.

[lodjur.1284]

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Any decent zerg can completely shrug off conditions, there's a reason even scourge runs power in zergs. If this isn't the case with your zergs then you need to reevaluate your comps. Buffing the clears of shiro for example would also have 0 effect on zerg play and is used by all power revenants in smallscale play.

Lol no they can't, you have to have people running proper builds and coordinating cleanses for that and even then it's still easy for people to get overwhelmed with condis. Yeah scourge runs power but the condi spam is still real and as I said it's not just damaging conditions that get you killed in zerg fights it's all the soft ccs. Mallyx is 100 percent mandatory for any guild group.

Sry if your guild zerg can't clear enough that's on them.

Yeah they could buff shiro cleanse but then maybe they make rev cleanse so good it can kill mirage and ranger even in 1v1s and so rev kicks mirage and ranger out of the roaming meta and you're just fighting a bunch of revs instead of mirages. Better to leave rev with serious weaknesses imo.

So we should have bad balance because it might get worse by attempting to fix it?

So we're back to that weakness in one entire area of the game is compensated by strength in another? Especially zerging, I mean you could be viable in a zerg naked...

Yeah I think that's good balance. It's good that some things are strong in some areas of the game and extremely weak in others. Instead of trying to get every matchup to 60/40 or whatever just accept that some things are going to be completely garbage in some places and absolutely mandatory in others it makes for a better game imo. You might be viable naked against some trash pug zerg but against a guild group you're going to one push every fight guaranteed.

Except that means you have less options in every gamemode. If someone asked me if thief/mirage/sb should get zerging exclusive buffs I would say ye (even if this might be harder to implement). Will every build be optimal everywhere, no, nor does that need to be the case but making more builds payable in more situations is positive.

That's one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen towards balance. There being only 3 classes all with the exact same playstyle being viable in smallscale is incredibly poor, it used to be better in HoT and even early PoF, so clearly the state can be better. Note that all those classes are also part of the most polarized matchups in the game, they are clearly a problem, by nerfing these 3 you would allow all 6 other classes a possibility to participate in smallscale fights in a much more relevant way.

I'm just being realistic. You're also not talking about small scale, which I would say is 5-15, but more like solo roaming and maybe 2s and 3s because thief ranger and mirage are garbage against even a properly comped 5 man and it just gets worse and worse for them as the fights scale up. They're basically stuck ganking solos and flipping camps because none of them have enough sustain to even attempt an offensive fight. If anything those three need a buff to actually be useful in the real WvW fights so they're not constantly relegated to solo roaming and camp flipping.

Smallscale stops when you become a squad, kinda in the name of it...

See above about buffs.

These classes also happens to be excellent +1ers for already outnumbered fights, which is one of the main reasons why I dislike them.

The other thing I guess I need spell out unfortunately is that 1v1s don't actually matter in WvW. They matter in spvp for side node fights but they're completely irrelevant in WvW. So it makes no sense to me to spend time trying to balance classes for WvW around 1v1 matchups in a game mode where they're not actually important. Easier to just stop playing your necro when you roam and learn to play mirage or soulbeast and just play necro with your guild.

I think if we can improve one aspect of the game that clearly matters to me and several other people that would be beneficial to the game. I don't think 1v1s are much fun or even good quality gameplay but if you run solo (such as when your guild is asleep or refusing to WvW cause of the terrible state of it) it sadly is a lot of what you will find.

[Sylosi.6503]

6 years in and people still don't get that they don't balance around WvW to any meaningful extent... (not that they could anyway without basically redesigning the trait, skill, weapon systems, etc).

So balance, be it blobs, guilds or roaming will remain the joke it as always been and the game mode will remain the poor quality imbalanced "PvP" it is, aimed for casual players or players too bad to realise any different, nothing is going to magically change in that regard 6 years in, only get worse with the power creep.

[SloRules.3560]

@Israel.7056 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Any decent zerg can completely shrug off conditions, there's a reason even scourge runs power in zergs. If this isn't the case with your zergs then you need to reevaluate your comps. Buffing the clears of shiro for example would also have 0 effect on zerg play and is used by all power revenants in smallscale play.

Lol no they can't, you have to have people running proper builds and coordinating cleanses for that and even then it's still easy for people to get overwhelmed with condis. Yeah scourge runs power but the condi spam is still real and as I said it's not just damaging conditions that get you killed in zerg fights it's all the soft ccs. Mallyx is 100 percent mandatory for any guild group.

Yeah they could buff shiro cleanse but then maybe they make rev cleanse so good it can kill mirage and ranger even in 1v1s and so rev kicks mirage and ranger out of the roaming meta and you're just fighting a bunch of revs instead of mirages. Better to leave rev with serious weaknesses imo.

So we're back to that weakness in one entire area of the game is compensated by strength in another? Especially zerging, I mean you could be viable in a zerg naked...

Yeah I think that's good balance. It's good that some things are strong in some areas of the game and extremely weak in others. Instead of trying to get every matchup to 60/40 or whatever just accept that some things are going to be completely garbage in some places and absolutely mandatory in others it makes for a better game imo. You might be viable naked against some trash pug zerg but against a guild group you're going to one push every fight guaranteed.

That's one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen towards balance. There being only 3 classes all with the exact same playstyle being viable in smallscale is incredibly poor, it used to be better in HoT and even early PoF, so clearly the state can be better. Note that all those classes are also part of the most polarized matchups in the game, they are clearly a problem, by nerfing these 3 you would allow all 6 other classes a possibility to participate in smallscale fights in a much more relevant way.

I'm just being realistic. You're also not talking about small scale, which I would say is 5-15, but more like solo roaming and maybe 2s and 3s because thief ranger and mirage are garbage against even a properly comped 5 man and it just gets worse and worse for them as the fights scale up. They're basically stuck ganking solos and flipping camps because none of them have enough sustain to even attempt an offensive fight. If anything those three need a buff to actually be useful in the real WvW fights so they're not constantly relegated to solo roaming and camp flipping.

The other thing I guess I need spell out unfortunately is that 1v1s don't actually matter in WvW. They matter in spvp for side node fights but they're completely irrelevant in WvW. So it makes no sense to me to spend time trying to balance classes for WvW around 1v1 matchups in a game mode where they're not actually important. Easier to just stop playing your necro when you roam and learn to play mirage or soulbeast and just play necro with your guild.

What changed that guild groups would even attempt to run mallix rev?

[Israel.7056]

@"lodjur.1284" said:Sry if your guild zerg can't clear enough that's on them.

I didn't say we can't clear them I said Mallyx is mandatory for resistance and clearing condis at every scale of play above roaming and so any changes to Mallyx will trickle over into other scales of play.

So we should have bad balance because it might get worse by attempting to fix it?

Your idea of good balance and mine are very different. As I said before I think balance is building dominant unique strengths and exploitable severe structural weaknesses into classes that they cannot overcome on their own. This makes compcraft crucially important for guild play. It also means that at certain scales of play these strengths and weaknesses will be more or less impactful. So in the case of roaming scale, mobility and single target ranged damage are incredibly impactful but once you get into small scale or medium scale mobility and single target ranged damage become less and less impactful and 900-1200 range aoe becomes the meta. This is why necros, revs and weavers are the meta dps for small scale and up but why they struggle at roaming.

Except that means you have less options in every gamemode. If someone asked me if thief/mirage/sb should get zerging exclusive buffs I would say ye (even if this might be harder to implement). Will every build be optimal everywhere, no, nor does that need to be the case but making more builds payable in more situations is positive.

That's correct but I don't think build diversity is inherently good. The crucial thing to me for good balance to exist is that everything should have its own defined strengths and defined extreme weaknesses.

Smallscale stops when you become a squad, kinda in the name of it...

In this game "small scale" refers to 5-15. Squads can still be "small scale" in the context of a game mode where groups can and often do run 50+. You're talking roaming size.

These classes also happens to be excellent +1ers for already outnumbered fights, which is one of the main reasons why I dislike them.

Yes because they're mobile and that's what makes them impactful at that scale of play. +1 means absolutely nothing as fights begin to scale though.

I think if we can improve one aspect of the game that clearly matters to me and several other people that would be beneficial to the game. I don't think 1v1s are much fun or even good quality gameplay but if you run solo (such as when your guild is asleep or refusing to WvW cause of the terrible state of it) it sadly is a lot of what you will find.

Marginally beneficial I'd say.

[Israel.7056]

@SloRules.3560 said:What changed that guild groups would even attempt to run mallix rev?

I will let you figure that one out as I think I've already said too much.

[SloRules.3560]

@Israel.7056 said:

@SloRules.3560 said:What changed that guild groups would even attempt to run mallix rev?

I will let you figure that one out as I think I've already said too much.

Seriously, chrono had very little effect on incoming condies and before that NO ONE played mallix rev. So??