Just a little thought on Augury of Death

As a experienced Reaper player, I often think that Reaper's mechanism is way more mundane than other specialisations of other classes, it just turns Necro from range to melee and nothing more. It was portrayed as an extreme dps who relies on Shroud, but the Reaper's Shroud skill sets and mindset are still almost the same as core Shroud.

Changing the skill sets of Shroud is impossible, but rehabilitating the Shout skills is simpler way to make Reaper's Shroud funnier and more options for Reaper player.

The simplest change is to make Shout skills that can be used when Shroud is on. A change for Angury of Dearh would be a good way for doing it.

Augury of Death-This is trivial trait today, Shout skills don't outstandingly differ from other utility skills that make Reaper boring (Player usually out of option when Reaper's Shroud is on).-So, the whole trait should be rewritten to:[Reduce recharge time 15% and Shout skills can be used when Reaper's Shroud is on.]

I make it an optional trait, because I don't want it to be way overpowered and shout when in shroud is not unreasonable.

Reaper's Shroud does do a ton of damage + the 50% damage reduction, as well as the added damage reduction from RS3. Allowing usage of shouts while in shroud, while amazing, might be a bit too OP.

@Methuselah.4376 said:Reaper's Shroud does do a ton of damage + the 50% damage reduction, as well as the added damage reduction from RS3. Allowing usage of shouts while in shroud, while amazing, might be a bit too OP.

So I want it as an optional trait, this is a very preliminary idea, it surely should trades off something base on each mode, such as +CD at competition mode.

ANet can't open utilities when in shroud and exceptions are even less possible. It's not because it would be OP or theatening balance-wise, it's due to how professions are coded which make any change to the main mechanism impossible. Asking for using utilities while in shroud is like asking for a whole new elite spec.

They said it somewhere when they introduced the system team, The special mechanism of each professions are a rigid foundation that is extremly difficult to tweak and have high risk of breaking the profession as a whole if it's tried. Your suggestion isn't bad in itself but it's technically impossible to do.

@Dadnir.5038 said:ANet can't open utilities when in shroud and exceptions are even less possible. It's not because it would be OP or theatening balance-wise, it's due to how professions are coded which make any change to the main mechanism impossible. Asking for using utilities while in shroud is like asking for a whole new elite spec.

They said it somewhere when they introduced the system team, The special mechanism of each professions are a rigid foundation that is extremly difficult to tweak and have high risk of breaking the profession as a whole if it's tried. Your suggestion isn't bad in itself but it's technically impossible to do.

Well technically it shouldn't be any different than holo.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:ANet can't open utilities when in shroud and exceptions are even less possible. It's not because it would be OP or theatening balance-wise, it's due to how professions are coded which make any change to the main mechanism impossible. Asking for using utilities while in shroud is like asking for a whole new elite spec.

They said it somewhere when they introduced the system team, The special mechanism of each professions are a rigid foundation that is extremly difficult to tweak and have high risk of breaking the profession as a whole if it's tried. Your suggestion isn't bad in itself but it's technically impossible to do.

As he said, its like asking for a new elite spec which Holo is. Same with Druid.

@Lahmia.2193 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:ANet can't open utilities when in shroud and exceptions are even less possible. It's not because it would be OP or theatening balance-wise, it's due to how professions are coded which make any change to the main mechanism impossible. Asking for using utilities while in shroud is like asking for a whole new elite spec.

They said it somewhere when they introduced the system team, The special mechanism of each professions are a rigid foundation that is extremly difficult to tweak and have high risk of breaking the profession as a whole if it's tried. Your suggestion isn't bad in itself but it's technically impossible to do.

Holo, Deadeye and recently Scrapper changed a lot too. Technically, it likes the change of Deadeye's malice mechanism, Anet have the ability to do such thing if they want to.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:ANet can't open utilities when in shroud and exceptions are even less possible. It's not because it would be OP or theatening balance-wise, it's due to how professions are coded which make any change to the main mechanism impossible. Asking for using utilities while in shroud is like asking for a whole new elite spec.

They said it somewhere when they introduced the system team, The special mechanism of each professions are a rigid foundation that is extremly difficult to tweak and have high risk of breaking the profession as a whole if it's tried. Your suggestion isn't bad in itself but it's technically impossible to do.

Shroud is closer to lich, tornado and rampage than it is to Holi and druid. It's a transformation. Forge is closer to a kit. Same with druid and Avatar.

This is what Robert Gee said:

Anything that changes the profession mechanic UI (that area where the F1-F4/5 skills live) tends to be a lot of work. When the original game was built, that part of the UI wasn't really made to be very flexible. As a result, any time we need to change it, it takes work from both artists and programmers who are familiar with the nuances of the underlying system.

As for the Elementalist thing, one specialization idea that was pitched during PoF development was an ele with only 2 attuenements (and a weapon swap). It's similar to what you are suggesting and probably would have involved similar amounts of work to change the profession UI. Although, I think Weaver was probably just as (or more) difficult due to the sheer number of extra skills!

Also, like Lahmia and Sigmoid pointed the shroud is a "transform" skill, different in the way it work than a "kit/conjure" skill.

Lastly, the part that I put in bold is probably even more an issue since there were quite a few ANet employees that had to leave the compagny recently. And among them were quite a few names that's been there since release of the game. I won't say that they lost all their knowledgable programmers/designers but ther is a high possibilty that they've been thined out.

For the people saying it would be like asking for a new elite spec... stop.. its not really its more so asking for a rework to shouts

While i dont feel like it would be impossible for them to do it would have to be done in a similar manner to celestial avatar just as their glyphs flip to new ones in cele avatar it would be something similar for reaper shouts. Just because its never been done does not mean its impossible to code in and I think some people are a bit too stuck on this ideal of if its not just a numbers change then its a broken one or an impossible one.

The shouts would have to become new skills entirely when shroud is active. Although as some people said it would be hard to balance, while I agree a lot of the shouts are not great there are easier ways to make the shouts feel more active and a great part of reaper without simply making them optional in shroud. After all an all shout reaper is a dead one aside from chilled to the bone, you are all weaklings, and possibly suffer. The shouts are are pretty crap. Your soul is mine is a quick heal but not a great one imo i mean its ok ish....... but imo it will always be out classed by blood well or consume conditions possibly even vampiric signet, Nothing can save you is to is too proactive instead of reactive making it too situational to use for its direct purpose its also a bit too weak in the sense that it does not reveal targets hit in stealth. (nothing should be able to save you)Rise is a joke in pvp now that it was nerfed so many times combined with the sheer amount of aoe chip damage that flys out in team fights. Ideally no one is going to be running an all shout reaper build even if you could use them in shroud unless their effects were great improved and the unused ones saw some changes.

I personally thinkAugury of Death should provide life force at the very least and possibly bonus shout cooldown to other shouts currently on cooldown when you use and land hits with any other shout. This makes them open to use a bit more often. Thus increasing their power and the value of taking more shouts in a build vs just 1 or 2 in which case you wouldn't use this trait anyways. Extra life force also fits the them of the whole top row of traits which is focused around hp and life force generationOr apply a lesser shout to the trait ill give 2 personal examples down below

AoD Version 1Reduces recharge of shouts. Your shouts siphon health and grant life force as well as gain additional recharge reduction for each foe they hit.Shouts on cooldown receive bonus recharge reduction when other shouts hit foes (this bonus only applies to shouts on cooldown not the current shout being used)

15% cd reduction to all shoutsLife Siphon Damage: 138 (0.01)Life Siphon Healing: 125 (0.02)Life Force Siphoning: 1%Recharge Reduction: 10%Recharge Reduction per Foe: 5%Bonus Recharge Reduction per Foe: 2%

AoD Version 2Reduces recharge of shouts. Your shouts siphon health and grant life force as well as gain additional recharge reduction for each foe they hit.Cast "No One Escapes Death" when one of your attacks is blocked

15% cd reduction to all shoutsLife Siphon Damage: 138 (0.01)Life Siphon Healing: 125 (0.02)Life Force Siphoning: 1%Recharge Reduction: 10%Recharge Reduction per Foe: 5%Cast "No One escapes Death" when one of your attacks is blocked.

"No One Escapes Death" "Lesser Nothing can save you" 25s CD (this cd is effected by the recharge reduction of the trait itself)Damage: 186 (0.7)Unblockable (4s): Your attacks are unblockable5 Vulnerability (10s): 5% Incoming Damage, 5% Incoming Condition DamageBoons Removed: 1Number of Targets: 5Duration Per Target Hit: 1 sRadius: 600Unblockable

@"Dadnir.5038" said:ANet can't open utilities when in shroud and exceptions are even less possible. It's not because it would be OP or theatening balance-wise, it's due to how professions are coded which make any change to the main mechanism impossible. Asking for using utilities while in shroud is like asking for a whole new elite spec.

They said it somewhere when they introduced the system team, The special mechanism of each professions are a rigid foundation that is extremly difficult to tweak and have high risk of breaking the profession as a whole if it's tried. Your suggestion isn't bad in itself but it's technically impossible to do.But its not though..... It kind of peevs me that you would flat out tell some one this to be honest.Its extremely difficult to get into space but its not impossible to do.Its extremely difficult to start a business from scratch but not impossible to do.Its extremely difficult to save someone's life via surgery but its not impossible to do.My point is you should not be telling people something is "impossible" just because some one said its "extremely difficult" And then say its "asking for a whole new elite spec" because really it wouldn't be. It would more so be like asking for "5 new shouts" that would show up as reaper skills coded to work from the reapers base hammer weapon.

Im fairly certain that anet breaks the professions on a daily/ weekly/monthly basis testing all sorts of things. Breaking a profession is likely nothing new to them ideally thats part of the idea creation and balance process.

Now im not saying its likely to happen but i wouldn't say its impossible to do. I would rather argue more the point that doing such a change wouldn't improve much for the traits or the shouts.

@"ZDragon.3046"I quoted Robert Gee, this should be enough of a "proof" to what I said. Allowing shout in shroud is not possible due to the sheer nature of the shroud which is both a "transform skill" and a main mechanism. If you want the shouts while in shroud you have to break down the main mechanism of the reaper, changing it from a "transform skill" into a "Kit" skill.

This is truly equivalent to creating a whole new e-spec. ANet barely touch the main mechanism of a profession. Removing fantasm wasn't touching the main mechanism of the mesmer because the mesmer's main mechanism is the shatter mechanism and clones remain to feed this mechanism. Modifying scrapper's drone wasn't touching the main mechanism of the scrapper because it's main mechanism remain the tool belt and the crappy thing that rez allies or finish down foes. Deadeye kept all it's mechanisms, the mark, the malice, the new bundle and new stealth skills.

We are talking about modifying the Reaper shroud from it's foundation here. We are talking about modifying a god forsaken "transform" skill that like all the transform skills don't allow the use of utilities. Modifying it into a "Kit" like skill for the sake of allowing shout while in shroud possibly break every single core shroud traits and the infamous 2nd life bar and it's inate damage reduction which is the sole defense of the necromancer.

Shout just can't be modified to appear magicaly on skill slot that are closed when transformed because you'd have to modify the way all transform skills work in the game to allow this and doing so would potentially break everything else.

So to resume in a more readable way, to allow shout while in reaper shroud, you need to:

• Modify reaper shroud from a transform to a new category of skill that allow utility skills when an exception is done.
• Link and balance all shroud traits accordingly.
• Make sure that the life force bar work properly alongside this new type of skill.

Even from an outsider point of view that look like an awful load of work. If you add to that that the shroud mechanism is tied to the foundation of the game there is an awful lot of chance that modifying this thing would create an unimaginable number of error everywhere in the game for seemingly no reason.

Which is why I said it's technically impossible to do. Technically this ask too much work on areas of the game that are too dangerous to touch for such a thing to be a possibility. To take back your surgery example, it would be like transplanting a brain onto another body.

@Dadnir.5038

Retaining utility skill when in transform is existing since day 1, Elementalist's conjured weapons is the transform that keep all the utility skills while Necromaner's shroud is a transform that lock all utility skills.

To retain shout skills at specific utility slots is only some skill ID check to determine that a slot should be locked or not. It is far from impossible to do.

@Rexts.8037 said:@Dadnir.5038

Retaining utility skill when in transform is existing since day 1, Elementalist's conjured weapons is the transform that keep all the utility skills while Necromaner's shroud is a transform that lock all utility skills.

Conjured weapons are kits not transformations..

If you want to make a comparison for elementslist you compare to tornado not conjured weapons.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Rexts.8037 said:@Dadnir.5038

Retaining utility skill when in transform is existing since day 1, Elementalist's conjured weapons is the transform that keep all the utility skills while Necromaner's shroud is a transform that lock all utility skills.

I don't think, even if those are right now transformation and kit, that it would be hard to change them.

If it's well written code, It's basically copy pasta and just change name of skills and numbers.

Really not that hard.

If it's like spaghetti code, then sure, that would be very hard to do

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Rexts.8037 said:@Dadnir.5038

Retaining utility skill when in transform is existing since day 1, Elementalist's conjured weapons is the transform that keep all the utility skills while Necromaner's shroud is a transform that lock all utility skills.

But that is the point people are trying to make. Is that the code is incredibly spaghetti. Shroud was a downstate before it's the way it is now and just retrofitted.

To get utilities in shroud you would have to make it a kit not a transformation. Which is why people are saying it would be akin to making a new spec due to all the design involved and the need to do significant testing to not break it.

I suspect they would need a new bit of tech to have transformations have utility skills.

It is far easier for them to change the shouts themselves than do anything regarding then work in shroud.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Rexts.8037 said:@Dadnir.5038

Retaining utility skill when in transform is existing since day 1, Elementalist's conjured weapons is the transform that keep all the utility skills while Necromaner's shroud is a transform that lock all utility skills.

But Transform and Kit call code need not to be different things while they are different in display.

I know some C, though not professional and I don't know how they write the code and which language the code is. There could be only one function for making skill ID check when transform activate. I mean, the utility skill being unlocked with intact cool down and skill fact when a transform deactivate, I am guessing that the game just hide the utility skills in transform.

Nonetheless, I concern more on skill balance than the code.

@Rexts.8037 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Rexts.8037 said:@Dadnir.5038

Retaining utility skill when in transform is existing since day 1, Elementalist's conjured weapons is the transform that keep all the utility skills while Necromaner's shroud is a transform that lock all utility skills.

They are completely different and function very differently. They are also not easily interchangable because of this. Why? Go back 8 years and ask. Well my guess is your utility skills aren't hidden, you are playing a character that doesn't have them at all when you change.

If you're more concerned with balance suggest changes that don't require unrealistic amounts of work to be done not just to the skills your making the suggestion for but many other areas of the game, i.e transformation skills.

There are a bunch of suggestions for the trait and shouts that don't require as much change and are far more realistic.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Rexts.8037 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Rexts.8037 said:@Dadnir.5038

Retaining utility skill when in transform is existing since day 1, Elementalist's conjured weapons is the transform that keep all the utility skills while Necromaner's shroud is a transform that lock all utility skills.

We are both guessing at last.

If you're more concerned with balance suggest changes that don't require unrealistic amounts of work to be done not just to the skills your making the suggestion for but many other areas of the game, i.e transformation skills.

There are a bunch of suggestions for the trait and shouts that don't require as much change and are far more realistic.

The reason I dream using shout skills in shroud is I want more connection between Reaper's special utility skills and Reaper's Shroud that may suit the role of extreme dps relying on shroud, not only the shout skills are currently underwhelming.

@Rexts.8037 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Rexts.8037 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Rexts.8037 said:@Dadnir.5038

Retaining utility skill when in transform is existing since day 1, Elementalist's conjured weapons is the transform that keep all the utility skills while Necromaner's shroud is a transform that lock all utility skills.

If you're more concerned with balance suggest changes that don't require unrealistic amounts of work to be done not just to the skills your making the suggestion for but many other areas of the game, i.e transformation skills.

There are a bunch of suggestions for the trait and shouts that don't require as much change and are far more realistic.

It's no real guess that they are two fundamentally different things. The only guess is how they work.

Your dream is very likely to come true. We're more likely to see something like the trait changed or buffed or charges on shouts.

@Dadnir.5038 said:@"ZDragon.3046"I quoted Robert Gee, this should be enough of a "proof" to what I said. Allowing shout in shroud is not possible due to the sheer nature of the shroud which is both a "transform skill" and a main mechanism. If you want the shouts while in shroud you have to break down the main mechanism of the reaper, changing it from a "transform skill" into a "Kit" skill.

This is truly equivalent to creating a whole new e-spec. ANet barely touch the main mechanism of a profession. Removing fantasm wasn't touching the main mechanism of the mesmer because the mesmer's main mechanism is the shatter mechanism and clones remain to feed this mechanism. Modifying scrapper's drone wasn't touching the main mechanism of the scrapper because it's main mechanism remain the tool belt and the crappy thing that rez allies or finish down foes. Deadeye kept all it's mechanisms, the mark, the malice, the new bundle and new stealth skills.

We are talking about modifying the Reaper shroud from it's foundation here. We are talking about modifying a god forsaken "transform" skill that like all the transform skills don't allow the use of utilities. Modifying it into a "Kit" like skill for the sake of allowing shout while in shroud possibly break every single core shroud traits and the infamous 2nd life bar and it's inate damage reduction which is the sole defense of the necromancer.

Shout just can't be modified to appear magicaly on skill slot that are closed when transformed because you'd have to modify the way all transform skills work in the game to allow this and doing so would potentially break everything else.

This still means its not impossible otherwise you wouldnt say it at all... In my opinion the more you fight to say you cant do it just allows me to see more ways it could be done technically meaning its not impossible to do. While you have brought up some good points between transforms and kits and as far as working with that code ill agree it could be difficult. But consider this. Could it be those skills 6-0 are locked in transforms simply because no skills exsist to sit in those slots. In theory what would happen if suddenly i dont know the devs said lets just make a new skill when trait "x" is taken and put it in slots 6-9 of the reaper transform. To be honest i still don't think its an impossible feat to do. Is it a reasonable one probably not, but impossible i still don't agree to be honest. There is simply too many "What ifs.." and other gaps of information we dont know. Remember they told us mounts would never be a thing because the game was not built to have them... see 2017-2019...... I truly think if they wanted reaper to have more skill options in its transform they "could" make it happen by simply making new skills that would appear under that transforms skill bar.

I still dont agree that you should tell some one its impossible because you truly dont know that. You could say "its highly unlikely" because "named reason" but to simply say cant happen seems a bit wrong to me. So many times in games ive seen "That cant happen because code or because its hard" only for that thing to happen later on down the line.

So to resume in a more readable way, to allow shout while in reaper shroud, you need to:

• Modify reaper shroud from a transform to a new category of skill that allow utility skills when an exception is done.
• Link and balance all shroud traits accordingly.
• Make sure that the life force bar work properly alongside this new type of skill.

Even from an outsider point of view that look like an awful load of work. If you add to that that the shroud mechanism is tied to the foundation of the game there is an awful lot of chance that modifying this thing would create an unimaginable number of error everywhere in the game for seemingly no reason.

But whats not an awful load of work. Ideas just don't magically appear in game without that. We both know its a lot of work, but thats how creative ideas are brought to life for players to enjoy. "Lots of hard work!" when there is no work involved behind something people tend not to enjoy it or see the "work" put into it. I would hope that all the changes they do in the game are based around "lots of hard work" Im sure tons of elite spec ideas went down the drain and were lots of "hard work" for what ended up as "no reason" because they were too broken or simply didnt work due errors or time restraints budget etc.

This how progress is made fortunately and if it does not work then it does not work. Ideally i dont see an issue with possibly modifying transform skills. I mean technically shroud is its own type of transform skill anyways how many other transforms can you name that are based on valued a resource cost to up keep them.Lich form not the caseRampage not the caseTornado not the case

Shroud is the only one that depends on a resource cost making it its own type of transform anyways, by current design it "Already" breaks apart form all other transform skills and should probably not be compared with other transforms skills in saying that "modifying this one" will break all of the other ones.

Which is why I said it's technically impossible to do. Technically this ask too much work on areas of the game that are too dangerous to touch for such a thing to be a possibility. To take back your surgery example, it would be like transplanting a brain onto another body.

Where you point out technically impossible i read "very unlikely" which is how it more so should be written but not impossible. I for one think its very possible to do but I will agree that it would probably be more work than they would want to put into necromancer given necromancers history. But impossible no... i will not agree.

@Methuselah.4376 said:Reaper's Shroud does do a ton of damage + the 50% damage reduction, as well as the added damage reduction from RS3. Allowing usage of shouts while in shroud, while amazing, might be a bit too OP.

Honestly after playing reaper for a few seasons now I find the 50% damage reduction in shroud pretty much unnoticeable in PvP due to the high power creep and 5% per second life force leech.

I don't think using shouts in shroud would make reapers OP at all, in fact it's a pretty good idea.

@Methuselah.4376 said:Reaper's Shroud does do a ton of damage + the 50% damage reduction, as well as the added damage reduction from RS3. Allowing usage of shouts while in shroud, while amazing, might be a bit too OP.Yeah let almost any other profession burst on you while you have those things active and see how fast you get insta kicked out of shroud

You pretty much need the passive 50% + the 20% from RS3 + protection(spectral armor) to actually face tank a burst which sounds like you are immune to damage. But even that still knocks a sizable amount off your shroud should you happen to get hit because while 50+20+33 sounds like 93% damage reduction its not actually that high its more like the 53% less of of the 50% thats knocked off your shroud last time i was fiddling with it so overall you still eat round 25-30% damage from the shroud gauge (not counter what damage modifier increases a foe would have) and depending on the numbers even in just a 1v1 thats a sizable amount but in a team fight where people know how to focus the necro well you wont sustain at all really.

The damage reduction stack can be strong in some situations but in most it wont save you. Power creep is high while damage reduction tools for hp soaking professions like necromancer remain untouched for years.

The combo you speak of is only strong in situations where organization is lacking. (its also does nothing against condition damage)

Core/RS Shroud is not a transformation. It's a mechanic of its own kind.

It applies a certain weapon: Core: staff, RS: hammerIt redueces damage by 50%.It prevents healing application (with certain exceptions).It disables the utility bar.Entering / leaving activates weapon swap sigils.It has no health pool like a transformation, but a life force pool which has a unique healing/degeneration mechanic.

There is a lot of things to pay attention when you change the mechanic to having access to utility skills. This would require a rework of the whole class.

I think it's technically not possible to give access to only one type of utility skills (shouts) and exclude the others.

Examples for balance issues:Wurm port in shroud might be too strong in some scenarios (stability access, damage immunity).Double cast BiP + Blighter's Boon synergy can heal you for 6k HP in shroud.Spectral Grasp in shroud can refill your LF by 75% and increase your survivability to ridiculous extents.Spectral Armor and Walk castings during shroud are a huge sustain boost as they can be timed a lot better....

Btw. Why are we arguing about augury of death.The trait isn't bad. And also not overpowered.So why change it? In some builds the trait is extremely useful.

Before we talk about this trait, can we talk about deathmagic?Focus 4?Designflaws of scourge?

The designflaws of deathshroud and reapers shroud, that both encourage you to play alone in an mmorpg, rather than together with other people?

Even if this is all written in spaghetti code. And even if it's a transformation, there should be time to rework those things.

Other things got reworked as well. (Deadeye mechanic)

Rev got a rework, deadeye got a rework, mesmer got a rework.

But the class most people are asking for a rework doesn't get one?Why?