Could War Eternal be about Menzies as well? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Could War Eternal be about Menzies as well?

Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

I mean he was foe of Balthazar through out the Eternal War. With his brother down I think it's time for him to show up? He could be a really interesting villain compare to Kralkatorrik.

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Comments

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    This is a very important event and I think it must be solved with the very characters and plot threads that have been developed for so many years building up into it, without bringing in last minute saviors or showing up new villains (let the next Season do that after the hiatus, we'll also have a raid in the meanwhile and current events related to it and probably current events to foreshadow the next season). Think of the last Avengers movie, which coincidentally has a poster very similar to War Eternal, I think they're trying to convey the same feeling here: this is closure to what we started, not a chance to keep bringing in new characters and new developments.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    Menzies is likely dead, killed by Balthazar before he got depowered by the other Gods. We can assume this safely because Balthazar and Menzies were at war, and it was stated that Balthazar had no war to fight which is why he was itching to fight the Dragons, in that case, he must have had already overcome Menzies immediately after the GW1 characters intervene in the Fissure of Woe and help speed along his Eternal's victory.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Menzies is likely dead, killed by Balthazar before he got depowered by the other Gods. We can assume this safely because Balthazar and Menzies were at war, and it was stated that Balthazar had no war to fight which is why he was itching to fight the Dragons, in that case, he must have had already overcome Menzies immediately after the GW1 characters intervene in the Fissure of Woe and help speed along his Eternal's victory.

    in fiction the rule is: if you don't see a corpse or ghost it's still alive.

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  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    It is implied but not confirmed Menzies is dead prior to GW2

    Even if not, to suddenly show up with zero foreshadowing or reason in the finale would be terrible writing given our focus is on Kralkatorrik and bringing together everyone for the battle and culminating the threads of the last 2 years

    Nothing implied it other than the war was over. Menzies could totally get away.

    And Dhuum, Abaddon, Balthazar and other powerful beings were not killed even if they were caught. Just imprisoned.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Grenth was unable to kill Dhuum, which is why he was spared. Abaddon and Balthazar were once good people, and it's suggested in lore that Abaddon was imprisoned instead of killed because the others were hoping he'd redeem himself ("A powerful force of Forgotten was sent to safeguard Abaddon's prison. Perhaps the Five had hoped that given time, Abaddon would come to his senses. They thought wrong."); the same is likely true for Balthazar if that implication is true. In all three cases though, you're talking about gods, which Menzies is not. And as we've seen with Nightfall and Path of Fire, the death of a god (or even re-empowered former god) is more than a bit disastrous. This shouldn't be the case for Menzies.

    I also doubt that Balthazar would be "bored due to no one to fight" if Menzies had merely gotten away, as Balthazar could thus entertain himself with hunting down Menzies.

    All that said, Menzies could be alive, but let's be honest, the time for his spotlight has come and gone. He should have been the antagonist of PoF, not Balthazar, and with Balthazar dead, there's really no point in Menzies, who's aim was Balthazar's head, to be involved with anything Tyrian. If Menzies does show up again, it' be to A) free Dhuum, which could potentially be a new raid after the Qadim stuff ends (imo, this is still unlikely), or B) to hunt down the Six / Balthazar's replacement (which must exist unless they retcon lore and make the entirety of NF pointless) as they travel through the Mists to other worlds, which wouldn't involve the Commander.

    And Menzies was Balthazar's brother. He is not god but certainly close to be one and if you kill him it would result to magic problem as well.

    If Menzies was defeated and got away, of course Balthazar would lose interest on him. Balthazar didn't start the war, Menzies did.

    All that said, NOTHING indicated Menzies was dead.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2019

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    And Menzies was Balthazar's brother. He is not god but certainly close to be one and if you kill him it would result to magic problem as well.

    If Menzies was defeated and got away, of course Balthazar would lose interest on him. Balthazar didn't start the war, Menzies did.

    All that said, NOTHING indicated Menzies was dead.

    Half-brother. But even Grenth wasn't born a god, and he was the child of a god and mortal. So even if Menzies was the child of a god and mortal like Grenth, he'd be in the situation of Grenth at the very best. However, we don't even know if Balthazar's parents - either one or both - was divine, let alone Menzies'; though we do know that gods and former gods break apart when they die, and Balthazar's father left his head so said father (shared or not is unknown) was likely not godly at all. This would mean that Balthazar, too, would be in Grenth's position at the very best at birth - presuming Balthazar's mother to be a goddess. But both Menzies' and Balthazar's parents may have been mortal for all we know.

    So no, Menzies is not "certainly close to one" and there is zero reason to believe that killing him would result in a magic problem as well for he is neither god nor former god.

    And yes, something does indicate that Menzies is dead. The war was over, and Balthazar was idle and bored from being idle as confirmed by devs. If he was bored because of idleness, then he wouldn't just let Menzies go, not because of any sense of righteousness, but out of boredom. He would no doubt choose a personal battle with no severe consequences if he won, over one with the Elder Dragons that would end with the world's destruction if he won.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Even if he is not dead, he still requires foreshadowing and some mentioning within the new lore. Menzies is barely known outside of hardcore gw1 players and will be utterly unknown to most gw2 players.

    Outside of the weapons, Im not even sure he is ever referred to anywhere in GW2 unless the priory have a book mentioning him. To bring him in, would suit a slow burn, a more subtle build up. A single full living season arc involving his Shadow Army slowly creeping back, invading and culminating in his final reveal in the last episode and some kind of confrontation, would be more appropriate, more exciting and would bring distraction from the Dragon arc.

    Bringing him in now would muddy a finale which already will need to be rammed to do justice to the build up.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    it's possible but unlikely. the lack of setup is what makes it unlikely and i think that menzies is something they might address in a raid rather then the season finally

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Half-brother. But even Grenth wasn't born a god, and he was the child of a god and mortal. So even if Menzies was the child of a god and mortal like Grenth, he'd be in the situation of Grenth at the very best. However, we don't even know if Balthazar's parents - either one or both - was divine, let alone Menzies'; though we do know that gods and former gods break apart when they die, and Balthazar's father left his head so said father (shared or not is unknown) was likely not godly at all. This would mean that Balthazar, too, would be in Grenth's position at the very best at birth - presuming Balthazar's mother to be a goddess. But both Menzies' and Balthazar's parents may have been mortal for all we know.

    So no, Menzies is not "certainly close to one" and there is zero reason to believe that killing him would result in a magic problem as well for he is neither god nor former god.

    And yes, something does indicate that Menzies is dead. The war was over, and Balthazar was idle and bored from being idle as confirmed by devs. If he was bored because of idleness, then he wouldn't just let Menzies go, not because of any sense of righteousness, but out of boredom. He would no doubt choose a personal battle with no severe consequences if he won, over one with the Elder Dragons that would end with the world's destruction if he won.

    Not really, Menzies has his own priests, his own creation of shadow and darkness army, his power is safe to say, close to Balthazar at least. He is a very powerful being, even if not a god, is pretty much close to be one.

    So Menzies is certainly close to one god, if he wasn't he would be easily smashed by Balthzar's army in Balthzar's realm rather than having a long lasting cruel war.

    No, the war is over means nothing. In real life and there are tons of examples. You are simply biting your own tail right now.

    If Menzies himself was nowhere close to a god, why would Balthazar have any interest to fight him when the war is over? You are contradicting yourself now.

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    Even if he is not dead, he still requires foreshadowing and some mentioning within the new lore. Menzies is barely known outside of hardcore gw1 players and will be utterly unknown to most gw2 players.

    Outside of the weapons, Im not even sure he is ever referred to anywhere in GW2 unless the priory have a book mentioning him. To bring him in, would suit a slow burn, a more subtle build up. A single full living season arc involving his Shadow Army slowly creeping back, invading and culminating in his final reveal in the last episode and some kind of confrontation, would be more appropriate, more exciting and would bring distraction from the Dragon arc.

    Bringing him in now would muddy a finale which already will need to be rammed to do justice to the build up.

    Again, NOTHING indicated he is dead.

    Not really, his background is easy to introduce.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2019

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Not really, Menzies has his own priests, his own creation of shadow and darkness army, his power is safe to say, close to Balthazar at least. He is a very powerful being, even if not a god, is pretty much close to be one.

    Priests don't matter for kitten. Mursaat had priests and were worshiped as gods, were they divine? No. This thing had priests and worshiped as divine, did that make it divine? No. Divinity in GW is an actual physical state of being, not a mere title.

    We can't even say Menzies is powerful. We never see anything Menzies directly did; we've only seen the actions of the Shadow Army, which is nothing but evil souls following him. From what we've seen, Menzies is more akin to a general than a god, in terms of power and leadership. On par to Mallyx or Mad King Thorn at best.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    So Menzies is certainly close to one god, if he wasn't he would be easily smashed by Balthzar's army in Balthzar's realm rather than having a long lasting cruel war.

    We never saw Balthazar take direct action. Given this, Balthazar likely saw the Eternal Battle like an RTS game, where you move your army but never directly interact. Balthazar's army was just an army of warrior spirits, no different than Abaddon's army being of former humans.

    Besides, we've seen mortals be a threat to gods, so why must someone be "close to a god" to be a threat to one?

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    No, the war is over means nothing. In real life and there are tons of examples. You are simply biting your own tail right now.

    If Menzies himself was nowhere close to a god, why would Balthazar have any interest to fight him when the war is over? You are contradicting yourself now.

    In of itself, "the war is over" does indeed mean nothing. What means something is "Balthazar was bored of idleness".

    As for why the interest - see above. One does not need to be "close to a god" to provide a challenge. Especially if the god is not acting directly.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Not really, his background is easy to introduce.

    Sure, but it would be a bad move narratively to introduce him and his background in a single go. Especially if Menzies plays some major role in stopping Kralkatorrik. Because that'll just be a Dues Ex Machina move.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Priests don't matter for kitten. Mursaat had priests and were worshiped as gods, were they divine? No. This thing had priests and worshiped as divine, did that make it divine? No. Divinity in GW is an actual physical state of being, not a mere title.

    Having priests that could lead shadow army to invade Balthazar's own realm certainly makes him powerful and close to a deity, the Lord of Destruction.

    We can't even say Menzies is powerful. We never see anything Menzies directly did; we've only seen the actions of the Shadow Army, which is nothing but evil souls following him. From what we've seen, Menzies is more akin to a general than a god, in terms of power and leadership. On par to Mallyx or Mad King Thorn at best.

    His army and generals already showed a lot of strength. Evil souls with a lot of power obviously showed his power. Mallyx's followers are mostly Abaddon, Dhuum and Menzies' minions.

    We never saw Balthazar take direct action. Given this, Balthazar likely saw the Eternal Battle like an RTS game, where you move your army but never directly interact. Balthazar's army was just an army of warrior spirits, no different than Abaddon's army being of former humans.

    Besides, we've seen mortals be a threat to gods, so why must someone be "close to a god" to be a threat to one?

    You are biting your own tail again, if Balthazar didn't take it that seriously, why would he want to kill his own brother when the war is over?

    In of itself, "the war is over" does indeed mean nothing. What means something is "Balthazar was bored of idleness".

    As for why the interest - see above. One does not need to be "close to a god" to provide a challenge. Especially if the god is not acting directly.

    You provided nothing.

    If Balthazar didn't even bother to show himself to fight the powerful shadowy army, then why would he have interest to fight Menzies unless he's a really powerful being close to him?

    Sure, but it would be a bad move narratively to introduce him and his background in a single go. Especially if Menzies plays some major role in stopping Kralkatorrik. Because that'll just be a Dues Ex Machina move.

    It's introduce him in the end and prepare for the next season, not using him as the antagonist right now.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2019

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Having priests that could lead shadow army to invade Balthazar's own realm certainly makes him powerful and close to a deity, the Lord of Destruction.

    Leading an army of spirits doesn't make one close to a god's power. Otherwise you're saying Oswald Thorn, Murakai, Glint, and the Primeval Kings are all close to a god's power.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    His army and generals already showed a lot of strength. Evil souls with a lot of power obviously showed his power. Mallyx's followers are mostly Abaddon, Dhuum and Menzies' minions.

    Leaders can have troops that are stronger than themselves. So that argument is flawed.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    You are biting your own tail again, if Balthazar didn't take it that seriously, why would he want to kill his own brother when the war is over?

    Not taking direct action != not taking it seriously

    Menzies was presented as the tenacious kind that would only take a break, not cease eternally in his goals. Menzies running away wouldn't end the war, it'd only give a respite, and Balthazar would be smart enough to know this.

    Besides, if Menzies gave up, then how does the title at all relate to Menzies? Plus, if Menzies gave up, he wouldn't even become an antagonist like you initially promote. Sounds like you're biting your own tail (weird expression...) rather than me.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    You provided nothing.

    The very game provides that mortals can challenge gods.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    If Balthazar didn't even bother to show himself to fight the powerful shadowy army, then why would he have interest to fight Menzies unless he's a really powerful being close to him?

    Balthazar was a god who relished challenges. Even if this challenge was a boardgame. It need not be personal combat to entertain him.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    It's introduce him in the end and prepare for the next season, not using him as the antagonist right now.

    Then the title shouldn't have anything to do with him, since the titles of episodes are about the meat and critical points of the episodes, ever since S2 began. War Eternal will be about the plot of the episode, or a climactic moment in the episode. It's never been used to refer to an individual, object, or place (expansion titles, however, do) since S1.

    Besides, with Balthazar gone, there's nothing "eternal" or "war" related to Menzies anymore. At best, a title relating to Menzies would be along the lines of "Shadow of War".

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why would they introduce a villain with minimal to no familiarity to the wider player base, with no relation to the game or story in the last 7 years at the end of a completely different story that is fully focussed on a much bigger and dangerous foe? Even to set up next season? That seems like bad fan fiction to me.

    I’m not against bringing him in, but this method would be the worst introduction to him, to the detriment of both him and the current story as things get crammed in needlessly.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Leading an army of spirits doesn't make one close to a god's power. Otherwise you're saying Oswald Thorn, Murakai, Glint, and the Primeval Kings are all close to a god's power.

    Again don't cut it off, leading an army to challenge a god in his own realm and start a fierce war, certainly is.

    Leaders can have troops that are stronger than themselves. So that argument is flawed.

    Not true to most of the GW villains, and not likely in this case since their power were mostly granted by him.

    Not taking direct action != not taking it seriously

    Not taking direct action is not taking it seriously especially on Balthazar's case.

    Menzies was presented as the tenacious kind that would only take a break, not cease eternally in his goals. Menzies running away wouldn't end the war, it'd only give a respite, and Balthazar would be smart enough to know this.

    Not really, Menzies is a clever one, again you are biting your tail now.

    If Menzies never cease to get his goal, then his power must be close to the level of gods otherwise he would not last that long at all.

    Besides, if Menzies gave up, then how does the title at all relate to Menzies? Plus, if Menzies gave up, he wouldn't even become an antagonist like you initially promote. Sounds like you're biting your own tail (weird expression...) rather than me.

    Retreat and hide away to plot doesn't mean give up.

    The very game provides that mortals can challenge gods.

    >

    Where? Even Balthazar was stripped out from his power. And even then his death gave a huge boost to Kralkatorrik resulted in world danger.

    Balthazar was a god who relished challenges. Even if this challenge was a boardgame. It need not be personal combat to entertain him.

    Again biting your own tail, why would Menzies be a challenge if he's not close to his brother's level? He was not playing a board game with Balthazar, but a war.

    Then the title shouldn't have anything to do with him, since the titles of episodes are about the meat and critical points of the episodes, ever since S2 began. War Eternal will be about the plot of the episode, or a climactic moment in the episode. It's never been used to refer to an individual, object, or place (expansion titles, however, do) since S1.

    Besides, with Balthazar gone, there's nothing "eternal" or "war" related to Menzies anymore. At best, a title relating to Menzies would be along the lines of "Shadow of War".

    Not true, it could be possible and Menzies' goal was always take his brother's position, and Kralkatorrik got part of his brother's strength.

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    Why would they introduce a villain with minimal to no familiarity to the wider player base, with no relation to the game or story in the last 7 years at the end of a completely different story that is fully focussed on a much bigger and dangerous foe? Even to set up next season? That seems like bad fan fiction to me.

    I’m not against bringing him in, but this method would be the worst introduction to him, to the detriment of both him and the current story as things get crammed in needlessly.

    Not really, if Menzies was related to Balthazar's change, everything could be linked.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Leading an army of spirits doesn't make one close to a god's power. Otherwise you're saying Oswald Thorn, Murakai, Glint, and the Primeval Kings are all close to a god's power.

    Again don't cut it off, leading an army to challenge a god in his own realm and start a fierce war, certainly is.

    You do realize this is exactly what the GW1 PC does, right? I guess that mere mortals are close to a god's power by this definition.

    Leaders can have troops that are stronger than themselves. So that argument is flawed.

    Not true to most of the GW villains, and not likely in this case since their power were mostly granted by him.

    Ehhhh. Kudu. Caudecus. Joko, if one overlooks the immortality aspect. Varesh had troops stronger than her (such as The Hunger) until she got her blessing from Abaddon. Arguably Gaheron, since the explorable mode bosses are tougher than him.

    I mean, most video games tend to have the main villain as the final antagonist, and the game would be disappointing if the final antagonist is a weakling, but often the "intelligent villains" become challenging due to some recent powerboost of some sort (chomping down on Bloodstones for Caudecus; infusing himself with dragon energy for Kudu; receiving blessings from Abaddon for Varesh) and not because they were always challenging and powerful. Menzies likely falls in this category, otherwise why wouldn't he be on the front lines himself?

    Not taking direct action != not taking it seriously

    Not taking direct action is not taking it seriously especially on Balthazar's case.

    No , it isn't. If he wanted to prolong his entertainment, he would avoid pulling out the big guns (aka himself) until he felt like he needed to in order to win. That's how most overconfident and overpowered individuals looking for entertainment act. They'll manipulate scenarios to watch a "show", only acting when they become close to losing.

    A person can still be serious about something, but draw things out due to overconfidence.

    Menzies was presented as the tenacious kind that would only take a break, not cease eternally in his goals. Menzies running away wouldn't end the war, it'd only give a respite, and Balthazar would be smart enough to know this.

    Not really, Menzies is a clever one, again you are biting your tail now.
    If Menzies never cease to get his goal, then his power must be close to the level of gods otherwise he would not last that long at all.

    Sure he can, if a) Balthazar wanted to prolong the battle for his own entertainment, b) if Menzies was well hidden, c) Menzies had enough powerful minions to give Balthazar pause, and/or d) he was manipulative enough to give Balthazar and his forces pause.

    D is outright stated to be the case in GW1. He's able to manipulate and make Balthazar's troops betray their god they swore devotion to. Regardless of strength, this alone will give Menzies an edge.

    Menzies is, to me, presented as the brainiac kind of villain. Where Dhuum is pure force of strength (as was Balthazar), Menzies and Abaddon were presented as shrewd manipulators.

    Besides, if Menzies gave up, then how does the title at all relate to Menzies? Plus, if Menzies gave up, he wouldn't even become an antagonist like you initially promote. Sounds like you're biting your own tail (weird expression...) rather than me.

    Retreat and hide away to plot doesn't mean give up.

    Then the war wouldn't be over.

    The very game provides that mortals can challenge gods.

    Where? Even Balthazar was stripped out from his power. And even then his death gave a huge boost to Kralkatorrik resulted in world danger.

    Uhm. Abaddon.

    Balthazar was a god who relished challenges. Even if this challenge was a boardgame. It need not be personal combat to entertain him.

    Again biting your own tail, why would Menzies be a challenge if he's not close to his brother's level? He was not playing a board game with Balthazar, but a war.

    You seriously have no understanding of the concept that "brain overcomes brawn".

    Then the title shouldn't have anything to do with him, since the titles of episodes are about the meat and critical points of the episodes, ever since S2 began. War Eternal will be about the plot of the episode, or a climactic moment in the episode. It's never been used to refer to an individual, object, or place (expansion titles, however, do) since S1.

    Besides, with Balthazar gone, there's nothing "eternal" or "war" related to Menzies anymore. At best, a title relating to Menzies would be along the lines of "Shadow of War".

    Not true, it could be possible and Menzies' goal was always take his brother's position, and Kralkatorrik got part of his brother's strength.

    Kralkatorrik got part of Balthazar's power that he got from Primordus, Jormag, and the Bloodstone. Balthazar's divinity and position has no relation to Kralkatorrik at all, it was stripped of him well before the events of GW2, after the apparent end of the Eternal Battle and Menzies supposed loss.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Why would they introduce a villain with minimal to no familiarity to the wider player base, with no relation to the game or story in the last 7 years at the end of a completely different story that is fully focussed on a much bigger and dangerous foe? Even to set up next season? That seems like bad fan fiction to me.

    I’m not against bringing him in, but this method would be the worst introduction to him, to the detriment of both him and the current story as things get crammed in needlessly.

    Not really, if Menzies was related to Balthazar's change, everything could be linked.

    I feel like if they introduced Menzies at this point, he would have had to have been at least mentioned during PoF or during Balth's arc, but he hasn't been mentioned or alluded to at all in the entire core, HoT, PoF, or LW seasons, and most players have no idea he even exists because of this lack of mention. Him popping up out of nowhere in the finale would just be too random and out of place. To me he would need at least one LW episode of buildup before becoming significant in the plot. Even Lyssa/Gods got more development than Menzies during LWS3 and PoF and would seem more likely to pop up in the story at this point.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Why would they introduce a villain with minimal to no familiarity to the wider player base, with no relation to the game or story in the last 7 years at the end of a completely different story that is fully focussed on a much bigger and dangerous foe? Even to set up next season? That seems like bad fan fiction to me.

    I’m not against bringing him in, but this method would be the worst introduction to him, to the detriment of both him and the current story as things get crammed in needlessly.

    Not really, if Menzies was related to Balthazar's change, everything could be linked.

    This is clutching at straws desp trying to find a way to bring him in when there is no logic to do so. If he was involved in Balthazar’s downfall, they would have seeded that during the Kormir instance. To suddenly interject a never before mentioned character and make him important given Balthasar’s story is over, is not good writing. I’m not the writing teams biggest fan, but I would hope they would never write something so ridiculous.

    Episodes have limited scope and limited time. Tying in a new story and concluding a Dragon story which began over 7 years ago in free prequel book within a single short episode, is not happening unless they want to water down both, especially as there will be more Aurene stuff to tie up.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Menzies is likely dead, killed by Balthazar before he got depowered by the other Gods. We can assume this safely because Balthazar and Menzies were at war, and it was stated that Balthazar had no war to fight which is why he was itching to fight the Dragons, in that case, he must have had already overcome Menzies immediately after the GW1 characters intervene in the Fissure of Woe and help speed along his Eternal's victory.

    Menzies was never 'depowered', he and Balthazaar is likely equal in terms of power, hence why the shadow army he had created is able to fight Balthazaar's Eternals for eternity

    now that Balthazaar is truly gone, Menzies forces can now finally overrun FoW, which hopefully be the next raid, we need to go into FoW to help out clean up the mess


    or Menzies vent his personal grudge against us and Kalk (for taking Balthzaar's power), because he believes it is him and only him alone have the right to kill Balthazaar and drain his magic

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Menzies is likely dead, killed by Balthazar before he got depowered by the other Gods. We can assume this safely because Balthazar and Menzies were at war, and it was stated that Balthazar had no war to fight which is why he was itching to fight the Dragons, in that case, he must have had already overcome Menzies immediately after the GW1 characters intervene in the Fissure of Woe and help speed along his Eternal's victory.

    Menzies was never 'depowered', he and Balthazaar is likely equal in terms of power, hence why the shadow army he had created is able to fight Balthazaar's Eternals for eternity

    now that Balthazaar is truly gone, Menzies forces can now finally overrun FoW, which hopefully be the next raid, we need to go into FoW to help out clean up the mess


    or Menzies vent his personal grudge against us and Kalk (for taking Balthzaar's power), because he believes it is him and only him alone have the right to kill Balthazaar and drain his magic

    Umh. I wasn’t referring to Menzies with that, give it another read.

    Also Menzies wouldn’t have been on Balthazar’s level, Balthazar was a god at the time, Menzies was not.

    Menzies has already been defeated and likely killed. That is why Balthazar was bored and wanted to fight the dragons.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think strength (or difficulty to kill) has little to do with how powerfull a being is. Abadon is a lot easier to kill then Mallyx, but according to lore, Abadon was more powerfull. The reason has to do with the content something has been written for. Abadon is part of the main story while Mallyx is the end boss of an elite mission. So arguing from healthpools and dps is not a very strong argument.

    You have to understand the role someone plays in a story. Balthasar is the God of war. He needs an adversary in his realm, otherwise there would be no war. This means that his faith is tied to that of his brother. No war exist without the other. The are both very much aware of this and know that when they stop eachother, the war is over and the purpose of the godly powers is over as well.
    They are in this way, more like Lyssa. Twins, that both form the war that makes it the god of war and they are in a way the same entity as they embody war and conflict. This is different then e.g. the difference between dhuum and grenth, which is a more philosophical difference about how afterlife should be. They are both part of the war and have no real difference.

    for the rest, lets focus on what we know about them.
    They are called brothers.
    Their origin is unknown.
    Balthazar seems to be responsable for the death of their father, as het was carrying his father's head when he arrived in Tyria.

    If we would see an introduction of Menzies, we should see more about both of their background. Is there a true conflict, or are they just part of the war? So far we have none and Menzies is unknown to most players.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Menzies is likely dead, killed by Balthazar before he got depowered by the other Gods. We can assume this safely because Balthazar and Menzies were at war, and it was stated that Balthazar had no war to fight which is why he was itching to fight the Dragons, in that case, he must have had already overcome Menzies immediately after the GW1 characters intervene in the Fissure of Woe and help speed along his Eternal's victory.

    Menzies was never 'depowered', he and Balthazaar is likely equal in terms of power, hence why the shadow army he had created is able to fight Balthazaar's Eternals for eternity

    now that Balthazaar is truly gone, Menzies forces can now finally overrun FoW, which hopefully be the next raid, we need to go into FoW to help out clean up the mess


    or Menzies vent his personal grudge against us and Kalk (for taking Balthzaar's power), because he believes it is him and only him alone have the right to kill Balthazaar and drain his magic

    Umh. I wasn’t referring to Menzies with that, give it another read.

    Also Menzies wouldn’t have been on Balthazar’s level, Balthazar was a god at the time, Menzies was not.

    Menzies has already been defeated and likely killed. That is why Balthazar was bored and wanted to fight the dragons.

    sorry, my bad :lol:

    Menzies wasnt a 'god' because of the other human gods did not back him, there was nothing in lore that said he's weaker than Balthazaar

    gotta remember, a god is really just a title called to the mist beings' followers, the humans, that's why they are referred to the human gods, majority of other races dont recognise them as gods; even for Quaggans, they only recognised Melandru, well, assumed Mellaggan to be Melandru

    i think anyone with an altered ego like Balthazaar sees something that can challenge his power would do the same thing, regardless Menzies is dead or not
    and from what we seen so far, mist beings cannot be simply killed and that's it, someone have to take their place or the magic released from their death will blow up the plane they are in, that's why they imprison them instead of outright kill them

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    even for Quaggans, they only recognised Melandru, well, assumed Mellaggan to be Melandru

    Quaggan would correct your theological misconception, but quaggan does not want to hurt silly human's feelings.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Menzies is likely dead, killed by Balthazar before he got depowered by the other Gods. We can assume this safely because Balthazar and Menzies were at war, and it was stated that Balthazar had no war to fight which is why he was itching to fight the Dragons, in that case, he must have had already overcome Menzies immediately after the GW1 characters intervene in the Fissure of Woe and help speed along his Eternal's victory.

    Menzies was never 'depowered', he and Balthazaar is likely equal in terms of power, hence why the shadow army he had created is able to fight Balthazaar's Eternals for eternity

    now that Balthazaar is truly gone, Menzies forces can now finally overrun FoW, which hopefully be the next raid, we need to go into FoW to help out clean up the mess

    or Menzies vent his personal grudge against us and Kalk (for taking Balthzaar's power), because he believes it is him and only him alone have the right to kill Balthazaar and drain his magic

    Nothing says Menzies created the Shadow Army, unless you mean "created" in the sense of creating the organization by recruiting people.

    And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    sorry, my bad :lol:

    Menzies wasnt a 'god' because of the other human gods did not back him, there was nothing in lore that said he's weaker than Balthazaar

    gotta remember, a god is really just a title called to the mist beings' followers, the humans, that's why they are referred to the human gods, majority of other races dont recognise them as gods; even for Quaggans, they only recognised Melandru, well, assumed Mellaggan to be Melandru

    i think anyone with an altered ego like Balthazaar sees something that can challenge his power would do the same thing, regardless Menzies is dead or not
    and from what we seen so far, mist beings cannot be simply killed and that's it, someone have to take their place or the magic released from their death will blow up the plane they are in, that's why they imprison them instead of outright kill them

    Godhood in GW is more than just a mere title. It is an actual power that can be transferred among individuals. At least for the Six. We've met other "mists beings" and they are nothing compared to the Six. Saying "the Six are just mere mists beings" would be like saying "the Elder Dragons are just mere dragons".

    Being worshiped and considered a god does not make one an actual god. Otherwise the mursaat would have been an entire race where each individual was as powerful as the Six. Or the Sacred Griffon of Amnoon or Moa'vu'Kaal such a being. But they're not, they're just powerful individuals of a mortal (not divine) species.

    We have no clue whether Koda, Melaggan, Zintl, or Amiyali are actually gods, beings like the Spirits of the Wild, or something else.

    And nothing suggests that Menzies is a god like the Six. At best, he would be a demigod like Grenth pre-ascension, or Dhuum and Balthazar post-descension. Most likely more akin to Mad King Thorn. Or perhaps akin to the Spirits of the Wild.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    don't forget the magic that sustained Balthazaar as a being while been chained up in the mist

    Godhood in GW is more than just a mere title. It is an actual power that can be transferred among individuals. At least for the Six. We've met other "mists beings" and they are nothing compared to the Six. Saying "the Six are just mere mists beings" would be like saying "the Elder Dragons are just mere dragons".

    they essentially are, Elder Dragons are dragons, just races on Tyria call them elder dragons; Glint, Vlast and Aurene all have the potential of replacing them
    just like Eastern and Western views of dragons and how they are portraited

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Menzies could of also become balth's replacement; Which is why we haven't heard anything from him. Is because the six basically chose menzies to replace balth, they never say balth beat menzies just that he got bored and was spooling for a "Refreshing fight". He could of grown tired of fighting his brother; And then turned his sights on the dragons so who knows.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As much as Menzies being the main threat for a season and/or expansion would be super cool, this episode should be firmly dedicated to Kralkatorrik. Whether this is the conclusion to his arc and we kill him or not, to shift now would feel very odd.

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • ChronoPinoyX.7923ChronoPinoyX.7923 Member ✭✭✭

    The only way Menzies would be involved is if they back the story as to what occurred in the Fissure of Woe before the events of GW2 alongside why Balthazar and Menzies fought. There's too much backstory and plotholes that would need to be filled to justify as to why Menzies would be involved.

    I definitely think there's a God of War twist in what has occurred in LWS4 but what they go with in terms of story we'll find out this May

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    they essentially are, Elder Dragons are dragons, just races on Tyria call them elder dragons; Glint, Vlast and Aurene all have the potential of replacing them
    just like Eastern and Western views of dragons and how they are portraited

    The Elder Dragons are more than mere dragons. They're intricately connected to The All. yes, they can be replaced, but there could only be a maximum of six Elder Dragons (maybe 12 since they have two domains each? Hard to say there). Glint, Vlast, and Aurene cannot replace an Elder Dragon without first dethroning an Elder Dragon. Similarly, one cannot become a god without dethroning a god.

    This is very different from eastern views of dragons where they can ascend to divinity by becoming more powerful without replacing another divine being.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Menzies could of also become balth's replacement; Which is why we haven't heard anything from him. Is because the six basically chose menzies to replace balth, they never say balth beat menzies just that he got bored and was spooling for a "Refreshing fight". He could of grown tired of fighting his brother; And then turned his sights on the dragons so who knows.

    While possible, it's very, very unlikely. Menzies has a strong reputation as being evil, treachrous, and conniving. He also aided the Six Gods' greatest known (to players) enemies: Abaddon and Dhuum.

    And what was said is that Balthazar was idle and grew bored of being idle. Which means he wasn't fighting anyone.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    That's a fan theory which has been pretty explicitly contradicted both in the Requiem writing (that Aurene contained the pure divine War magic that transcended the corruption of Balthazar himself), that Balthazar's sword, an actual god relic, could sense his divine signature, and in that each dragon got new abilities from Balthazar like they did from the other Elder Dragons, rather than just getting raw energy.

    It remains to be seen how the writers will reconcile this to the idea that Balthazar is fallen and depowered and somehow different from the remaining of the Six, and to the plot of Nightfall.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    That's a fan theory which has been pretty explicitly contradicted both in the Requiem writing (that Aurene contained the pure divine War magic that transcended the corruption of Balthazar himself), that Balthazar's sword, an actual god relic, could sense his divine signature, and in that each dragon got new abilities from Balthazar like they did from the other Elder Dragons, rather than just getting raw energy.

    It remains to be seen how the writers will reconcile this to the idea that Balthazar is fallen and depowered and somehow different from the remaining of the Six, and to the plot of Nightfall.

    It's not a fan theory. It was not only explicitly stated by Kormir and Balthazar in the game, but by developers as well. Balthazar had his power stripped from him.

    Balthazar: They abated me, dimmed my light... But they will see me now.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_(story)

    Rytlock Brimstone: Or the five. Balthazar is one of the Six.
    Kormir: No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six.

    Kormir: We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth

    I think you might have answered your own question, bc Sohothin and Aurene are definitely key factors ;) However, it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when the other gods stripped him of his power and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's regained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. He's still mega-powerful, but the Commander is also pretty freakin' powerful and using a god's own sword against him and having your own pet dragon seem to go a long way.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/74qjlh/path_of_fire_devs_here_ask_us_anything/do0hz8w/?st=j9nk3g6t&sh=4eadf480

    There's no theory. It's 100% confirmed.

    But it's also shown and confirmed that Balthazar "converted" the magic he absorbed into his own form of magic. This is why he doesn't use ice magic. The Elder Dragons no doubt do this too, thus why we only ever see Zhaitan using death and shadow magic, or Primordus using fire magic (prior to S3), despite them absorbing a kitten ton of Orrian and Asuran magic respectively. Similarly, Dhuum only ever uses his death magic despite consuming countless souls that would no doubt have had other forms of magic.

    That "converted" magic is what the Zafirah requiem talks about, it's what Balthazar's sword is drawn to. It's not about Balthazar's divinity, but that divinity's "flavor of magic" that Balthazar was still connected to somehow (just as Dhuum is to his own old divinity of death domain). But it also mentions that Zafirah sensed a difference in Balthazar's magic when she met him in person compared to the power she felt the time before. There was similarities, but also a notable difference.

    What this all shows is that a fallen god still retains some connection to that "domain" that they once held sway over, as it is shown not just with Balthazar but Dhuum. Balthazar was 100% no longer a god, no longer had that divinity, but was still connected to it and converted magic into its domain until his death.

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And Kralkatorrik didn't take Balthazar's power, not the power Menzies was after. The power Kralk and Aurene took was what Balthazar gained from absorbing the magic from Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    That's a fan theory which has been pretty explicitly contradicted both in the Requiem writing (that Aurene contained the pure divine War magic that transcended the corruption of Balthazar himself), that Balthazar's sword, an actual god relic, could sense his divine signature, and in that each dragon got new abilities from Balthazar like they did from the other Elder Dragons, rather than just getting raw energy.

    It remains to be seen how the writers will reconcile this to the idea that Balthazar is fallen and depowered and somehow different from the remaining of the Six, and to the plot of Nightfall.

    It's not a fan theory. It is quite literally said that Balthazar is no longer a god, thus he does not have the divine magic.

    What he DID still have was his own inherent magic as a powerful being regardless of whether or not he had the divine magic. Dhuum is still monstrously powerful, so was presumably Menzies, and Grenth before he took Dhuum's divine magic.

    The sword belonged to him and was likely made by him whilst he was still a god (Hence why it still had divine magic in it), therefore whether he is a God or not is irrelevant to his sword being able to tell his essence was absorbed by Aurene. Dhuum's scythe didn't suddenly recognise Grenth as it's wielder just because Grenth took Dhuum's divine power.

    The two things are different: Balthazar's inherent magic and the divine magic of the God of War. He had the former still, but he did not have the latter.

    Nowhere in Requiem does it say Aurene had divine magic.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    But it also mentions that Zafirah sensed a difference in Balthazar's magic when she met him in person compared to the power she felt the time before. There was similarities, but also a notable difference.

    But she felt the old feeling in Aurene, which can only have come from the magic Aurene consumed from Balthazar. So, he must have still had some true divine magic -- not just Balthazar magic or corrupted divinity, but the sort of divine magic that would be transferred to a new god. I don't deny that Kormir claimed that he was stripped of title, and we directly saw that he was depowered somehow and fundamentally changed to lose his holy aura.

    But just as obviously, it wasn't a complete transformation, or there would be nothing divine for Zafirah to sense in Aurene, only (at best) Balthazar magic. And it's implied from the way she described it that the presence she felt was the real thing, the pure essence of the divine domain as distinct from and transcending the vessel. It seems like an inconsistency, so I'm curious how they will resolve it (if they bother) -- did the Six figure out that, so long as they left some of his power intact, they didn't need to replace him? Or did they leave it inside him, and simply sealed it away so he couldn't access and abuse it (worked so well with Abaddon, why not try it again)? Was it just that the excision of divinity was only 99% successful, and some traces of divinity were left over?

    I have a suspicion that this is all to create some justification for having Aurene be reborn as a new war god (the war god is dead, long live the war god!) -- if so, I imagine that the issue of "what happened to Balthazar's power, then?" will be handwaved away or we'll get an unsatisfying answer. Though, I guess I could see where she is just a delivery mechanism to provide the last missing bit of divinity to a new vessel. Either way, I put the odds of ending Season 4 without a new war god of some sort to be pretty slim.

    I guess the most outlandish possible option is that the Pact Commander becomes the new vessel for War, minus the cosmic power. They could justify it by saying that the same bond that lets the PC help Aurene safely absorb magic (per the most recent episode) also works in reverse -- thus, they don't have to transform like Kormir so long as Aurene is alive and bonded with them. Well, they'd have to bring her back for that, but after killing and resurrecting the actual PC, we're starting to operate with Supernatural-level character death stakes.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    But she felt the old feeling in Aurene, which can only have come from the magic Aurene consumed from Balthazar. So, he must have still had some true divine magic -- not just Balthazar magic or corrupted divinity, but the sort of divine magic that would be transferred to a new god. I don't deny that Kormir claimed that he was stripped of title, and we directly saw that he was depowered somehow and fundamentally changed to lose his holy aura.

    I don't see why it must be Balthazar's divinity.

    Firstly, from Zafirah's Requiem is this line:

    But something was wrong. He stood before me, tall and imposing, power radiating from his physical form...but this power was different from what I had felt all those years before. His voice dissonant from the one I heard within me.

    This outright states that Balthazar's fallen state is, while very similar, ultimately different from the blessings from "Balthazar" she had known over the years (I use quotes because ultimately we don't know if it was from Balthazar, or some replacement, or some remnant from pre-fall Balthazar).

    About Aurene, what she says during Requiem is this:

    My faith is not in the god himself. His flesh, such as it was. My faith is in what he made me feel—his power, his potential. A potential that lived on in Aurene.

    When Balthazar's sword seeks Aurene out, this is what's said:

    Zafirah: It seeks Balthazar. Senses his magic. I don't understand... Balthazar was never here...
    Commander: But Aurene was.
    Zafirah: The sword perceives him... through her? Just who is this dragon of yours?

    And when Zafirah first meets Aurene what's said is:

    Zafirah: What... Balthazar? I can feel him...
    Commander: Ah, right. You haven't met Aurene in person.
    Zafirah: I...never expected to feel his presence again. And in a dragon...

    There is nothing about Balthazar's divinity. It is all about the feel of his magic. Which Balthazar retained throughout Path of Fire, even when he took in other forms of magic in, he used his own magic; just as Dhuum retained the type, feel, flavor, etc. of his magic despite being dethroned and no longer a god.

    None of that implies or requires Balthazar to have retained his divinity.

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    But just as obviously, it wasn't a complete transformation, or there would be nothing divine for Zafirah to sense in Aurene, only (at best) Balthazar magic.

    Which is exactly what Zafirah felt. Not his divinity. His magic.

    Which is exactly what Blish wanted the sword for: Balthazar's magic, not divinity:

    Blish: Leave the device to me. But we'll need a lure: magic tasty enough to tempt a dragon.
    Blish: Something like... Ah—Balthazar's sword!

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    And it's implied from the way she described it that the presence she felt was the real thing, the pure essence of the divine domain as distinct from and transcending the vessel.

    Again, no. She felt Balthazar's magic, and she saw how Aurene used that magic matched the code of honor that she had learned and felt from the presence she knew before meeting Balthazar - the presence she presumed (correctly or incorrectly) to be Balthazar.

    She felt the same magic in four forms:

    • The presence she found through the Zaishen
    • Balthazar
    • Balthazar's Sword
    • Aurene

    But Balthazar's presence felt different than "the presence" or from Aurene. But she noted that Aurene's presence felt similar to "the presence".

    There was never anything said about sensing Balthazar's divinity in all of Zafirah's Requiem or her dialogue in the story instances (as far as I could find).

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • ChronoPinoyX.7923ChronoPinoyX.7923 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    But she felt the old feeling in Aurene, which can only have come from the magic Aurene consumed from Balthazar. So, he must have still had some true divine magic -- not just Balthazar magic or corrupted divinity, but the sort of divine magic that would be transferred to a new god. I don't deny that Kormir claimed that he was stripped of title, and we directly saw that he was depowered somehow and fundamentally changed to lose his holy aura.

    Balthazar retained some of his powers from before he was stripped of them but it was extremely weak to the point where he couldn't do much with it outside of reigniting Sohothin (from Rytlock's flashback). If he retained any of his divine powers, he would just as easily be able to escape his chains in The Mists but he couldn't, it took Rytlock physically breaking the chains that bound Balthazar for Balthazar to escape. The power that Zafirah would have sensed would have been Balthazar's flame which we know was very weak before he amplified it with the Bloodstone, which is why, as stated already above by @Konig Des Todes.2086 , Zafirah felt Balthazar's magic but it was drastically different.

    She felt the magic of Balthazar's flame (which is attuned to Balthazar's sword and resides in Aurene) but it's not the same divine magic as what he originally had before he was stripped of his Godhood.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Then the title shouldn't have anything to do with him, since the titles of episodes are about the meat and critical points of the episodes, ever since S2 began. War Eternal will be about the plot of the episode, or a climactic moment in the episode. It's never been used to refer to an individual, object, or place (expansion titles, however, do) since S1.

    Besides, with Balthazar gone, there's nothing "eternal" or "war" related to Menzies anymore. At best, a title relating to Menzies would be along the lines of "Shadow of War".

    My guess would be that the title "The War Eternal" refers to how we're going to be reentering the Mists to fight Krak on that front, a place that anet constantly uses the idea of eternal conflict to describe in the form of both phrasing, battleground names, and in game events (such as fractals, the constantly repeating battle pouring out of the mists in Jahai Bluffs, etc.)

    The Mists is a concept that anet uses a lot to add some sort of realistic explanation towards us farming the same content over and over again or killing the same people (and dying to them) over and over again in WvW/sPvP... And while it could be a coincidence that they used "Eternal War" to name the next episode, they could have named the chapter literally anything, so it would be strange if it was just a coincidence and the final chapter had nothing to do with the Mists, a place synonymous with it.

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    Shadow Army!

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    Now we saw Fissure of Woe was overran by Menzies' Shadow Army. I bet if we are going to have a break on the dragons, we will have to deal with Balthazar's death and the new war god.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would hardly call a marginal presence in the shattered remains of the Burning Forest to be "overrun".

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Now we saw Fissure of Woe was overran by Menzies' Shadow Army. I bet if we are going to have a break on the dragons, we will have to deal with Balthazar's death and the new war god.

    unlikely, menzies would be better suited as raid material then carry an entire LW season

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  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    I can't believe till this stage some ppl are still denying the obvious existence of Menzies and keep claiming his death with ZERO proof.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    Considering a chunk of the Fissure of Woe is now on Tyria I am deeply interested in the potential consequences of that (as well as the other 2 realms) and hopefully the Devs will answer my question about it on the livestream tomorrow.
    (I'd like to know if these new islands are still connected to their associated God Realms as the appear to be in the game but it's not yet confirmed)

    Taking into account that Abyssals and members of Menzies Shadow Army are active on the chunk of Fissure of Woe that landed in the ocean then I would say it's a solid bet that Menzies is very much still alive and well and may have even taken advantage of Balthazars absence and the lack of Heroes traveling to the Fissure of Woe to take it over at some point in the 250 years since Gw1.

    If this chunk of the Fissure of Woe is still connected to Balthazars realm and if indeed Menzies is still alive and has taken over this realm then I would bet that the chunk of Fissure in the Unending Ocean could potentially act like an anchor point for Menzies to flood his Shadow Army into Tyria and start invading the mainland starting with the Scavengers Causeway.
    I'd very much like to play out that story arc in Gw2 at some point, maybe not part of the main story or living world but something more akin to the War in Kryta and Winds of Change stuff in Gw1, additional events that happen after the main story of Gw2 has ended and are potentially setting the stage for whatever comes after Gw2, be that another MMO or something else based in this world.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Eeh if he shows up it will be in the same way as Dhuum. I doubt the very minor presence of a handful of his minions on a small chunk of land in the ocean will have much bearing on the plot either.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Now we saw Fissure of Woe was overran by Menzies' Shadow Army. I bet if we are going to have a break on the dragons, we will have to deal with Balthazar's death and the new war god.

    unlikely, menzies would be better suited as raid material then carry an entire LW season

    There' s still one left this season, right?

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Eeh if he shows up it will be in the same way as Dhuum. I doubt the very minor presence of a handful of his minions on a small chunk of land in the ocean will have much bearing on the plot either.

    Dhuum was imprisoned, but Menzies is the most powerful non dragon villain for now. I can't see why should he be a raid boss instead of a main plot villain.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Eeh if he shows up it will be in the same way as Dhuum. I doubt the very minor presence of a handful of his minions on a small chunk of land in the ocean will have much bearing on the plot either.

    Dhuum was imprisoned, but Menzies is the most powerful non dragon villain for now. I can't see why should he be a raid boss instead of a main plot villain.

    I find the statement "most powerful non-dragon villain" to be highly questionable.

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