Rate raids in terms of difficulty — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Rate raids in terms of difficulty

Second go at Salvation pass yesterday (the only raid I've done), and I laugh in the face of anyone saying GW2 raids are heroic level for WoW. Nope did multiple heroic tiers, and just nope. That one is definitely mythic (if WoW even has mechanics difficult enough to compare).

So I'm curious if I should even bother with them, can experienced players please rate raids in terms of difficulty? I just need to know where Salvation pass stands. A raid or two at that level is fine, more than that, screw it, I can get 2g another way, and if Anet thinks gating Leggies behind them is going to get everyone to do them, it's just going to kill their game.

Comments

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wing 2 is one of the hardest wings imo but do you mean you tried Slothasor or Matthias?

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Wing 2 is one of the hardest wings imo but do you mean you tried Slothasor or Matthias?

    I've actually done both. I joined once in the middle and we failed Matthias and the other time we just got stuck on sloth. But why is one of the intro raids one of the hardest? That's just ridiculous, especially considering the experimental armor is gated behind it.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Wing 2 is one of the hardest wings imo but do you mean you tried Slothasor or Matthias?

    I've actually done both. I joined once in the middle and we failed Matthias and the other time we just got stuck on sloth. But why is one of the intro raids one of the hardest? That's just ridiculous, especially considering the experimental armor is gated behind it.

    There is no such thing as an "intro Raid".

    Wing 4, Bastion of the Penitent, is considered the easiest one to start with as 3 out of 4 bosses are really easy. Deimos is on a different level than the rest and more appropriate for a Raid.
    Wing 1 is also very easy and it has the best designed phases for bosses, as the difficulty ramps up from phase to phase, starting from open world difficulty (phase 1) and going to Raid difficulty (last phase).
    Both Wing 4 and 1 have the highest carry potential of all other raid wings, a couple of people knowing what they are doing trivialize both for all others participating. Although you have to find such experienced players first, without them, those Wings take some time getting used to, like all Raid Wings should.

    Wing 3 has probably the easiest Raid encounter of them all, Siege the Stronghold, or as it's called by the community: Escort. Then it gets a bit trickier, and Xera is a really hard boss.
    Wing 2 also has a very easy encounter, the Prison Camp (Trio), but it is an event AFTER the first boss. Slothasor takes some time to get used to because unlike Wing 1 bosses there are no clear phases, he only gets a single new attack at 50% and that's it. Matthias, the last boss, is a hard one, but in my opinion it's an excellent Raid boss because it comprises of lots of phases that you learn in order, 3 of them total, then in the last phase you fight mechanics from all 3 at once.

    As for Path of Fire, Wing 5 is the by far hardest Wing of all while both Wing 6 and Wing 7 are more on the easy side.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Wing 2 is one of the hardest wings imo but do you mean you tried Slothasor or Matthias?

    I've actually done both. I joined once in the middle and we failed Matthias and the other time we just got stuck on sloth. But why is one of the intro raids one of the hardest? That's just ridiculous, especially considering the experimental armor is gated behind it.

    It's not. First 3 wings are quite similar in difficulty (barring escort - the first event/boss of wing 3, which is much easier). Although bosses are of different difficulty, if you keep asking around, you will see that the difficulty order will be different for everyone, as it is very subjective.
    Then comes wing 4, which is much easier (well, first 3 bosses are, boss 4 is a bit tougher). Then comes wing 5, which is way harder, with its' last boss being the hardest raid encounter so far even on base version (with CM being really, really hard).
    After that it gets complicated, and you will probably get a different answer depending on who you will ask. The top of the raiding community says wings 6 and 7 are way too easy, and some rate last wing even below wing 4 in difficulty. Some disagree, and say that they are much harder than that. Surprisingly enough, due to how those fights are constructed, both sides are probably completely right - the difficulty is mostly concentrated on elements that are completely trivial to the best raiders, but very difficult for below average ones.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 21, 2019

    This is just my opinnion.
    1 easy 10 hard
    W1VG: good first timer boss, i would say 4.

    W1 gorseval: almost no mechanics at all, If dps is good i would say 3.

    W1sabetha: with a good Kiter and two Cannon players this one is very easy. 4.

    W2 slothasor a bit harder boss, mostly coz some mechanics are for sheep dps players, 6.

    W2 trio: like an open world event, If two guys know the fight its very simple. 4

    W2 matthias: with a boon teef or other "carry comp" this one is Also pretty simple, 6 i would say.

    W3 Escort: one guy who can do mechanics, for every1 else this is just open world. 2

    W3 KC: dps check, other than that very simple boss. 4.

    W3 TC: same as Escort

    W3 xera: dps check that has some noob killer mechanics like confusing pre event and gliding Part. 6

    W4 cairn: good starting boss, has only few mechanics. 4

    W4 MO: same as cairn, but a bit easier. 3

    W4 samarog: not very mechanic heavy fight, almost all his attacks can Insta kill, but animations are easy to learn. Good starting boss, i would say 4.

    W4 deimos, ranged strat cheese with few good players 4. Melee strat 5-6

    W5 desmina. Rng, movement, and all kind of weird kitten happening. Even with good pusher i would say this one is 7.

    W5 River: open world, 2.

    W5 statues: easy If some1 explains what to do. 3

    W5 dhuum. Yes, i feel this is easier than desmina, this is less chaotic. Still solid 7.

    W6 CA: small dps check, easy boss If few guys knows The mechanics and can explain them. 4.

    W6 Largos. With random Squad composition this one is hard, but with meta comp i feel its around same lvl as desmina, so 7.

    W6 qadim: lots of mechanics, its like a meta event. Once every1 understand what they need to do, the actual fight is not that hard. 6

    W7 air: with Voice chat even new raiders can easily kill this. 4.

    W7 earth: once every1 knows the mechanics and wipes here few times it gets alot easier. 4.

    W7 qadim2: confusing at start but not that hard. 7.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Second go at Salvation pass yesterday (the only raid I've done), and I laugh in the face of anyone saying GW2 raids are heroic level for WoW. Nope did multiple heroic tiers, and just nope. That one is definitely mythic (if WoW even has mechanics difficult enough to compare).

    We've been down this road.

    You've not done WoW heroic raids, definately not on level gear wise. You have likely done WoW heroic raids with an item level gear advantage, which makes them easier and more in the sphere of normal difficulty.

    There is almost no raid content in GW2 which would pose a significant challenge to a WoW raider who did content on level and once acclimated to the different game design.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    So I'm curious if I should even bother with them, can experienced players please rate raids in terms of difficulty? I just need to know where Salvation pass stands.

    Simple to answer: have you enjoyed raiding so far?
    Yes: keep going.
    No: don't bother.

    Salvation Pass and Sloth/Math in particular are PUG killers because some of the mechanics present can cause a wipe, meaning if 1 player messes up, he screws everyone. For experienced players or groups that customize their setup for safe clears, this wing should pose no real challenge.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    A raid or two at that level is fine, more than that, screw it, I can get 2g another way, and if Anet thinks gating Leggies behind them is going to get everyone to do them, it's just going to kill their game.

    If legendary gear is your only motivator and you are forcing yourself to raid without enjoying the content, you should consider getting the WvW or PvP legendary armor. Those might be just as unfun to get, but you'll have them eventually without any challenge gating your progress.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Second go at Salvation pass yesterday (the only raid I've done), and I laugh in the face of anyone saying GW2 raids are heroic level for WoW. Nope did multiple heroic tiers, and just nope. That one is definitely mythic (if WoW even has mechanics difficult enough to compare).

    We've been down this road.

    You've not done WoW heroic raids, definately not on level gear wise. You have likely done WoW heroic raids with an item level gear advantage, which makes them easier and more in the sphere of normal difficulty.

    This is only true for Uldir. I've done practically all of antorus (except the last boss) at a disadvantage. i geared up in the bosses pervious to argus, so I'm not even sure you could argue that I did it at an "advantage". I've also dabbled in BoD at heroic level at the appropriate ilvl as well, so I can confidently say this is false and you're not my personal stalker. Either I miscommunicated in our previous thread or you're making stuff up. It is possible to overpower a raid in WoW, but that doesn't mean I've always done it that way.

    There is almost no raid content in GW2 which would pose a significant challenge to a WoW raider who did content on level and once acclimated to the different game design.

    Okay, prove it, get a random joe shmoe guild and see what they have to say when they convert. I've had at least one person admit that the boss encounters hit mythic level in our previous discussions so i don't know what you're talking about.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    So I'm curious if I should even bother with them, can experienced players please rate raids in terms of difficulty? I just need to know where Salvation pass stands.

    Simple to answer: have you enjoyed raiding so far?
    Yes: keep going.
    No: don't bother.

    Salvation Pass and Sloth/Math in particular are PUG killers because some of the mechanics present can cause a wipe, meaning if 1 player messes up, he screws everyone. For experienced players or groups that customize their setup for safe clears, this wing should pose no real challenge.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    A raid or two at that level is fine, more than that, screw it, I can get 2g another way, and if Anet thinks gating Leggies behind them is going to get everyone to do them, it's just going to kill their game.

    If legendary gear is your only motivator and you are forcing yourself to raid without enjoying the content, you should consider getting the WvW or PvP legendary armor. Those might be just as unfun to get, but you'll have them eventually without any challenge gating your progress.

    Wvw you have to play at least 40 hours a week for a year. Sorry I have a life. And I'm already doing this in SPvP. In previous seasons I was having a terrible win rate, this season hasn't been as bad, not sure if it's due to less bots or me just copy pasting a meta build, so when we last talked I had all but given up on sPVP as well. I actually do enjoy raiding in WoW and fractals in GW2. I actually think raiding in this game so far has been unfun. But I'm also trying to see if other tiers are as bad as SP so excuse me while I ask other people willing to help questions about the other tiers. If you're not going to give meaningful help and just bash me pulling stuff out of thin air when you don't understand my WoW history and make up random stuff that you have no evidence for it's better just not to post.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    If you're not going to give meaningful help and just bash me pulling stuff out of thin air when you don't understand my WoW history and make up random stuff that you have no evidence for it's better just not to post.

    I literally gave you the reason why wing2 can be challenging. You must have skipped it while complaining.

    You want advice for content which has seen neaely hundreds of guides? Here:

    • have a thief use his steal on Sloth, then use the stolen poison if the group eats a ton of conditions (have him switch to group, not squad view)
    • have 1 of the Dragonhunters bring Stand your Ground. Use before/during fear. It affects 10 people, can be used bevore the fear since the stability lasts a while
    • beind a heal scourge for even more condi remove, barrier and epidemic against adds
    • a heal scrapper (very rarer) can completely negate the shake with reflects, so can other classes like the chronos
    • a heal tempest works just as good as a heal scourge, tons of condi remove and very high healing
    • have people not move during his ground pound until all 3 circles appear as to not fill up the entire area with aoe

    Nearly every mechanic for this boss can be nullified if the group brings the appropriate counter. Now if you are running a full meta snowcrows composition with a group of new players, sure you will have issues if people fail mechanics.

    The same goes Matthias. Though here all you need is 1 heal scourge, have the chronos run minstrel and healing mantra (with condi remove) and maybe a boonthief. Bam, completely outtank the boss with massive condi remove, healing and barrier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I actually think raiding in this game so far has been unfun. But I'm also trying to see if other tiers are as bad as SP so excuse me while I ask other people willing to help questions about the other tiers.

    As bad? No, similar in design. They all require players with a basic understanding of the boss, where to go and what to do.

    If you are not enjoying the content, then quit. The worst thing you can do is go in for only the rewards. It will leave you less motivated for both the content and the game, not give you satifaction for beating the content nor be fun in the process.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    If you're not going to give meaningful help and just bash me pulling stuff out of thin air when you don't understand my WoW history and make up random stuff that you have no evidence for it's better just not to post.

    I literally gave you the reason why wing2 can be challenging. You must have skipped it while complaining.

    You want advice for content which has seen neaely hundreds of guides? Here:

    • have a thief use his steal on Sloth, then use the stolen poison if the group eats a ton of conditions (have him switch to group, not squad view)
    • have 1 of the Dragonhunters bring Stand your Ground. Use before/during fear. It affects 10 people, can be used bevore the fear since the stability lasts a while
    • beind a heal scourge for even more condi remove, barrier and epidemic against adds
    • a heal scrapper (very rarer) can completely negate the shake with reflects, so can other classes like the chronos
    • a heal tempest works just as good as a heal scourge, tons of condi remove and very high healing
    • have people not move during his ground pound until all 3 circles appear as to not fill up the entire area with aoe

    Nearly every mechanic for this boss can be nullified if the group brings the appropriate counter. Now if you are running a full meta snowcrows composition with a group of new players, sure you will have issues if people fail mechanics.

    The same goes Matthias. Though here all you need is 1 heal scourge, have the chronos run minstrel and healing mantra (with condi remove) and maybe a boonthief. Bam, completely outtank the boss with massive condi remove, healing and barrier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I actually think raiding in this game so far has been unfun. But I'm also trying to see if other tiers are as bad as SP so excuse me while I ask other people willing to help questions about the other tiers.

    As bad? No, similar in design. They all require players with a basic understanding of the boss, where to go and what to do.

    If you are not enjoying the content, then quit. The worst thing you can do is go in for only the rewards. It will leave you less motivated for both the content and the game, not give you satifaction for beating the content nor be fun in the process.

    I agree 100% heal scourge for slot makes it a walk in the park, no matter how many ppl goes down after shake scourge just rez every1. And for Matthias.. boon thief.. that is just broken perma all boons exept alacrity. With boon teef you just cheese all the mechanics as ur Squad has lot of aegis for one shots, perma resistance for condies and perma stability for knockdowns. Oh! Wait it gets Even better, boon teef can upkeep might Solo, so u can drop druid and take a heavy carry heal instead (tempest or scourge). If spirits really matter, just take one dps soulbeast with spirit.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    If you're not going to give meaningful help and just bash me pulling stuff out of thin air when you don't understand my WoW history and make up random stuff that you have no evidence for it's better just not to post.

    I literally gave you the reason why wing2 can be challenging. You must have skipped it while complaining.

    You want advice for content which has seen neaely hundreds of guides? Here:

    • have a thief use his steal on Sloth, then use the stolen poison if the group eats a ton of conditions (have him switch to group, not squad view)
    • have 1 of the Dragonhunters bring Stand your Ground. Use before/during fear. It affects 10 people, can be used bevore the fear since the stability lasts a while
    • beind a heal scourge for even more condi remove, barrier and epidemic against adds
    • a heal scrapper (very rarer) can completely negate the shake with reflects, so can other classes like the chronos
    • a heal tempest works just as good as a heal scourge, tons of condi remove and very high healing
    • have people not move during his ground pound until all 3 circles appear as to not fill up the entire area with aoe

    Nearly every mechanic for this boss can be nullified if the group brings the appropriate counter. Now if you are running a full meta snowcrows composition with a group of new players, sure you will have issues if people fail mechanics.

    The same goes Matthias. Though here all you need is 1 heal scourge, have the chronos run minstrel and healing mantra (with condi remove) and maybe a boonthief. Bam, completely outtank the boss with massive condi remove, healing and barrier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I actually think raiding in this game so far has been unfun. But I'm also trying to see if other tiers are as bad as SP so excuse me while I ask other people willing to help questions about the other tiers.

    As bad? No, similar in design. They all require players with a basic understanding of the boss, where to go and what to do.

    If you are not enjoying the content, then quit. The worst thing you can do is go in for only the rewards. It will leave you less motivated for both the content and the game, not give you satifaction for beating the content nor be fun in the process.

    Yeah I didn't see it because you started assuming kitten about me, that kind of turns people off EDIT: also I could already guess based on my experiences that 1 person wipes the raid. Thanks for the help. And btw, all the useful stuff came in the 2nd post.

  • On a scale from 1 (easy) to 10 (hard) per boss, it's something like:
    W1 - 2,2,3
    W2 - 2,1,2
    W3 - 1,1,3
    W4 - 1,1,1,3
    W5 - 4,1,2,4
    W6 - 2,3,3
    W7 - 1,1,3

    CMs get a bit higher, with Dhuum CM maybe ending up at 7 or so. But overall, GW2 raids are pretty casual stuff. Even the hardest CM pales against glorious encounters like System Daemons, Avatus or the entirety of Redmoon Terror. Judging by wowprogress, I assume it's similar for WoW, since the kill dates don't look as if all Mythic bosses fell within one or two days, which GW2 CMs do.

    Praise delta!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    On a scale from 1 (easy) to 10 (hard) per boss, it's something like:
    W1 - 2,2,3
    W2 - 2,1,2
    W3 - 1,1,3
    W4 - 1,1,1,3
    W5 - 4,1,2,4
    W6 - 2,3,3
    W7 - 1,1,3

    CMs get a bit higher, with Dhuum CM maybe ending up at 7 or so. But overall, GW2 raids are pretty casual stuff. Even the hardest CM pales against glorious encounters like System Daemons, Avatus or the entirety of Redmoon Terror. Judging by wowprogress, I assume it's similar for WoW, since the kill dates don't look as if all Mythic bosses fell within one or two days, which GW2 CMs do.

    Days? Wing 7 CMs were completed like hours after release. What was it, 4-5 hours or so for LN until they had CMs clear? :)

    Some credit though, in part WoW mythic raids need longer is due to the required gear up, in essence mythic raiders start with a disadvantage which essentially pushes raids past the point of mythic difficulty initially making WoW first time raiders face even bigger challenges.

    I agree with the difficulty values, maybe add 1 point accross the board ending with Dhuum CM as an 8.

    Going by pure time to first kill, WoW raids are significantly above GW2 raids in difficulty. This can be attributed to many factors though, most of which have been discussed: gearing, disparity im performance between a well played and poorly played class, etc.

  • I know the last wing was just hours, but kept some buffer in that statement since I don't really remember anymore how long the legit Dhuum CM kills took. The essence stays the same anyway. MMOs with item progression certainly have an additional factor that influences time until first kill, but at least in Wildstar that one accounted for just a fraction of the differences in time to first kill. Dunno how exactly it's in WoW nowadays, as I haven't played that game in a decade.
    With regard to the difficulty values, give or take one point depending on the bosses. To a certain degree, it's subjective anyway. Maybe Dhuum CM can even get it's 8, since on a 1-10 scale stuff like Star Map would have to get a 12 anyway.

    Praise delta!

  • Kitty's boss-based relative ratings. Easiest is 1 and hardest is 10. Kitty's rating based on average of hardest and easiest role and how easy it is for squad to wipe and for skilled player to hard-carry. NM = Normal mode, CM = Challenge mote.
    Vale Guardian: Greens 2,5 / No greens side-tank 3 / No greens mid-tank 4
    Gorseval the Multifarious: No Ups 2 / Updrafts 2,5 ('cause people just can't do them properly)
    Sabetha the Saboteur: 3,5
    Slothasor: NM 3,5 / CM 4,5
    Bandit Trio: NM 2 / CM 4,5 (Nutella is quite lethal if prolonged)
    MatthiASS: NM 5 / CM 5,05
    Escort: 0,5 (only needs a good mine-sweeping tower chrono with heal gears)
    Keep Construct: 4
    Xera: 6,5
    Cairn the Indomitable: NM 2 / CM 4
    Mursaat Overseer: NM 1 / CM 8 (DPS needs to be quite exactly suitable. Too much or too low kills some peoples.)
    Samarog: NM 1,5 / CM 6
    Deimos: Ranged 4 / Melee 6 / CM 7,5
    Soulless Horror: NM 7 / CM 7
    River of Souls: 3
    Statues: 4
    Dhuum: NM 9 / CM 10
    Conjured Amalgamate: NM 3 / CM 6
    Largos Twins: NM 6,5 / CM 7,5
    Qadim 1.0: NM 7 / CM 8
    Adina: NM 4 / CM 4,5
    Sabir: NM 3,5 / CM 4,5
    Qadim 2.0: NM 5,5 / CM 6,5

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    Sloth isn't too bad once you have your foot in raids, i would never ever recommend it as someones first ever raid boss though. Sloth in particular has some sucky mechanics where the failure of one person will cause a group wipe, and there's even more than one of these "x role failed might as well wipe" mechanics o.o And multiple ways you can mess up the people doing those mechanics.

    Buuuuuuuut.... to someone who has done a few raids, all that sloth really has that's of any difficulty is dealing with coconuts in limited space, that'll often be the thing to mess up someone who has done the other raid wings a few times. It will be very vicious and extremely difficult if you aren't used to raids; the pace of movement/mechanics, leaving your life in the hands of healers, stacking, conserving your dodges, your rotation, and what defences you can use without cutting your dps/boon uptime & when/where to use them. Other bosses are much less hurty if you don't have a solid grasp on all of these things- pace of mechanics and use of defences is particularly important to sloth, you can't ignore any of the mechanics because poison and fixate will be on random peoples, so if you get distracted by something or stuck on your rotation/a bad position you can't take a moment to rethink and fix whatever minor mistake you made if you e.g. are about to drop poison and kill the group with it.
    I dunno about matthias since i never even seen it yet.

    Cairn (first boss wing 4) and Vale Guardian (VG, first boss of wing 1) are the easiest bosses to start at, there are some pople who think Cairn is the better starter boss and some who think VG is the better starter boss, because people prioritise different reasons as the more important thing to learn first. Cairn is certainly easier though.

    Wing 4 is considered the easiest wing, though Samarog (third boss) is a newb killer- Sam isn't actually that difficult mechanic wise, but the CC required means people have to be very aware of their rotations (to delay CC ingrained into rotation) and their skills, and what they could and should swap out for more CC. Also, people that don't intend to get fixated tend to panic and run around if they get fixated (instead of the two people who volunteer for fixation), and this messes up the whole group.
    Deimos, the last boss in wing 4 is also on a completely different level to the other bosses in the wing- it's not too bad for normal dps, but is very harsh on those who take special roles and unless you have someone experienced on those special roles Deimos will be extremely difficult.

    Wing 1 is probably next for easiest, the main thing in wing 1 is it gets exponentially easier the higher the group dps in a way most other raid bosses don't; VG's breakbar will be a killer if it isn't broken in a few seconds and the more dps the less of these you see, a fast break on Gorseval in a low dps group is a wipe and low dps in the last phase will have people die on updrafts instead. Sabetha is a bit more easily taken slowly. Mechanics in wing 1 are also on the easier side of things.

    The hardest is wing 5 without a doubt, the last boss in wing 5 is considered the hardest in the game (Dhuum), and it's first boss- Soulless Horror- is also harder than some entire wings are to complete.
    Wings 2, 3, 6 and 7 are kind of mid diffciulty range. Wing 6 on agreggate is on the harder end of the scale, buuut it's first boss is an outlier and not easy per se, but comparitively much easier than the other two bosses in the wing- twin largos and quadim are some of the hardest raid bosses in the game, but conjured amalgamate, the first boss, is fine to jump into (newbie raiders just have to be aware that it's okay to prioritise mechanics over rotation for CA in particular).
    Wing 7 is a weird anomaly of being simultaneously very easy and very hard, but i'd say that as long as you can kill Vale Guardian you're fine- i wouldn't use wing 7 as starter bosses, but i also wouldn't avoid them if i was a newbie raider either. Sabir can be a bit harsh because mechanics are heavily loaded onto the last 50% while the first 50% is a walk in the park, and also that most even training groups like to dps race that last part when they could chose much safer tactics for training the boss.
    Wing 3 has an easy start, but Xera in particular is much harder than the rest of the wing. If i were to teir raid bosses as hard, medium or easy- i'd say Xera is at the bottom of the hard teir, there are harder bosses but she definitely isn't my-first-raid material.

  • I personally often look at raids difficulty in 2 ways, first: how hard is the raid boss to a skilled player (group). And second: how easy/hard is it to carry on said boss. Carry potential (CP from here on) is for me often more importent then how hard the boss is for a full group of skilled players. 1 is easy to carry on and 10 is not.

    W1B1: 3, CP: 6 (cant stop peopple from getting ported)
    W1B2: 2, CP: 3
    W1B3: 4, CP: 2 (1 kiter that take all green bombs and 2 jumpers and the rest can more or less be blind monkeys)
    W2B1: 5, CP: 6 (heal necro or heal temp is prob the only classes that really can carry HARD here)
    W2B2: 1, CP: 2
    W2B3: 4, CP: 2 (boon thief, heal necro, heal temp can all carry hard here)
    W3B1: 1, CP: 2
    W3B2: 2, CP: 3
    W3B3: 4, CP: 5 (that gliding part at 50% is hard to carry)
    W4B1: 3, CP: 1 (Actually a super easy boss, but for some reason, not sure why but I see both skilled and less skilled groups wipe here, but so easy to carry)
    W4B2: 1, CP: 2
    W4B3: 2, CP: 3
    W4B4: 4, CP: 2 (just need 3, none monkeys and easy/boring kill)
    W5B1: 6, CP: 5 (the wall rng can f you up)
    W5B2: 2, CP: 1
    W5B3: 2, CP: 3
    W5B4: 5, CP: 7
    W6B1: 2, CP: 2
    W6B2: 5, CP: 8 (kinda need atleast 6 people that dont fail mechanics left and right)
    W6B3: 4, CP: 8-9 (prob that hardest boss to carry for 1-3 people)
    W7BEarth: 2, CP: 3/6 (3 is everyone stay alive, 6 if people die left and right)
    W7BAir: 2, CP: 3/8 (about the same as earth, but easyer for people to die then at earth. Heal necro is big carry at Air)
    W7B3: 3, CP: 2/9 (1 tank, 1 healer and 1 war can carry super hard here. the 9 is untill people learn to place fires correctly. After that it becomes easy to carry)

    This is naturally just in my experience and will vary from person to person.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Going by pure time to first kill, WoW raids are significantly above GW2 raids in difficulty. This can be attributed to many factors though, most of which have been discussed: gearing, disparity im performance between a well played and poorly played class, etc.

    Do you know how Method does win? They use proc classes and essentially roll the dice over and over with a low chance of success. Also dabbling in last tier taught me that some classes only do top damage with certain items and it's not just an ilvl game, it's also gated behind rng on BiS pieces as well. There was like a 50% dps difference between a BiS and non BiS configuration at the same ilvl for the spec i looked at for my character. Gw2 doesn't have that sort of gating.

    Heroic tier was cleared like a day after EP was released and mythic tier isn't released until a week after the other 2.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 22, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Going by pure time to first kill, WoW raids are significantly above GW2 raids in difficulty. This can be attributed to many factors though, most of which have been discussed: gearing, disparity im performance between a well played and poorly played class, etc.

    Do you know how Method does win? They use proc classes and essentially roll the dice over and over with a low chance of success. Also dabbling in last tier taught me that some classes only do top damage with certain items and it's not just an ilvl game, it's also gated behind rng on BiS pieces as well. There was like a 50% dps difference between a BiS and non BiS configuration at the same ilvl for the spec i looked at for my character. Gw2 doesn't have that sort of gating.

    Heroic tier was cleared like a day after EP was released and mythic tier isn't released until a week after the other 2.

    You really do not want me looking up historic data on clear times for WoW raids versus GW2. It goes as high as over 85-90 days in vanilla.

    You might disagree on some things, but this is a very clear fact: first clears take significantly longer in WoW versus GW2. Given GW2 doesn't have as big a raid guild like Method and similar WoW raid guilds, this makes it even more obvious that WoW raids are more challenging.

    The only significant clear time until first kill in GW2 is Dhuum CM, and even that timeframe barely scratches the average time it takes for mythic and difficult herooc WoW bosses to get killed for the first time. We aren't even talking about CMs in GW2 here but about normal raids, and those are definately not even close to WoW mythic difficulty (or hard heroics).

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You really do not want me looking up historic data on clear times for WoW raids versus GW2. It goes as high as over 85-90 days in vanilla.

    You might disagree on some things, but this is a very clear fact: first clears take significantly longer in WoW versus GW2. Given GW2 doesn't have as big a raid guild like Method and similar WoW raid guilds, this makes it even more obvious that WoW raids are more challenging.

    The only significant clear time until first kill in GW2 is Dhuum CM, and even that timeframe barely scratches the average time it takes for mythic and difficult herooc WoW bosses to get killed for the first time. We aren't even talking about CMs in GW2 here but about normal raids, and those are definately not even close to WoW mythic difficulty (or hard heroics).

    Why don't you look up how long it took for classic MC clears before making this claim? It was ridiculously short compared to Vanilla (and done with sub level 60 characters lol, so you could make the claim that's like technically a 0 day clear, as the characters weren't all even "properly" prepared for it) and actually clearly demonstrates where we're both coming from. Anyone seasoned in a game is going to think things are trivial, and tbh, I was new to WoW last expansion in Legion (and only raided last tier, about 2 years ago, I did raid some in classic and BC too, but I don't count that as it was so long ago) and I'm completely new to GW2 raids now as all I did was open world before, I can tell you, based on new experiences in both games GW2 is more difficult. The mechanic density is much higher (at least in SP). Meaning the number of players messing up that it takes to wipe a raid is much lower in GW2 and those mechanics hit players much more frequently.

    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Going by pure time to first kill, WoW raids are significantly above GW2 raids in difficulty. This can be attributed to many factors though, most of which have been discussed: gearing, disparity im performance between a well played and poorly played class, etc.

    Do you know how Method does win? They use proc classes and essentially roll the dice over and over with a low chance of success. Also dabbling in last tier taught me that some classes only do top damage with certain items and it's not just an ilvl game, it's also gated behind rng on BiS pieces as well. There was like a 50% dps difference between a BiS and non BiS configuration at the same ilvl for the spec i looked at for my character. Gw2 doesn't have that sort of gating.

    Heroic tier was cleared like a day after EP was released and mythic tier isn't released until a week after the other 2.

    You really do not want me looking up historic data on clear times for WoW raids versus GW2. It goes as high as over 85-90 days in vanilla.

    You might disagree on some things, but this is a very clear fact: first clears take significantly longer in WoW versus GW2. Given GW2 doesn't have as big a raid guild like Method and similar WoW raid guilds, this makes it even more obvious that WoW raids are more challenging.

    The only significant clear time until first kill in GW2 is Dhuum CM, and even that timeframe barely scratches the average time it takes for mythic and difficult herooc WoW bosses to get killed for the first time. We aren't even talking about CMs in GW2 here but about normal raids, and those are definately not even close to WoW mythic difficulty (or hard heroics).

    It is quite fallacious to argue that because the clear times are longer that the raids have to be more difficult. This would only work within the same game and even then only to a certain extent.

    Shorter clear times will be a given in gw2 as long as we don't have progression.

    Btw how do you describe difficulty of a raid? Do you describe it using an average player, an average raider or a top end raider to compare?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You really do not want me looking up historic data on clear times for WoW raids versus GW2. It goes as high as over 85-90 days in vanilla.

    You might disagree on some things, but this is a very clear fact: first clears take significantly longer in WoW versus GW2. Given GW2 doesn't have as big a raid guild like Method and similar WoW raid guilds, this makes it even more obvious that WoW raids are more challenging.

    The only significant clear time until first kill in GW2 is Dhuum CM, and even that timeframe barely scratches the average time it takes for mythic and difficult herooc WoW bosses to get killed for the first time. We aren't even talking about CMs in GW2 here but about normal raids, and those are definately not even close to WoW mythic difficulty (or hard heroics).

    Why don't you look up how long it took for classic MC clears before making this claim? It was ridiculously short compared to Vanilla (and done with sub level 60 characters lol, so you could make the claim that's like technically a 0 day clear, as the characters weren't all even "properly" prepared for it) and actually clearly demonstrates where we're both coming from. Anyone seasoned in a game is going to think things are trivial, and tbh, I was new to WoW last expansion in Legion (and only raided last tier, about 2 years ago, I did raid some in classic and BC too, but I don't count that as it was so long ago) and I'm completely new to GW2 raids now as all I did was open world before, I can tell you, based on new experiences in both games GW2 is more difficult. The mechanic density is much higher (at least in SP). Meaning the number of players messing up that it takes to wipe a raid is much lower in GW2 and those mechanics hit players much more frequently.

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    Btw how do you describe difficulty of a raid? Do you describe it using an average player, an average raider or a top end raider to compare?

    Personally I use a couple of criteria to identify difficult Raids compared to easy ones.
    1) How strict is the composition required for it. For example, Vale Guardian is impossible without some form of condition damage and boon strip
    2) If it can be made far easier using certain advanced builds, like Boon Thief on Matthias or Heal Scourge on Sloth
    3) If a single person failing a mechanic will cause a wipe, a badly placed well of the profane on Matthias will lead to wipes, failing to eat the orbs at Dhuum will cause a wipe
    4) How many players need to be awake to play the boss. You only need 3 people at Sabetha, 2 going for cannons and a kiter that will also throw bombs, everyone else will simply rotate around Sabetha during flame wall and open-world-boss her to death

    The "how hard it is to execute mechanics" is much harder to quantify and will vary from player to player, but I think the above 4 are more objective and common for every player.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭

    Amen brother! AAAAAAHMEEEEEEHN!

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

    trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

    trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

    Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

    Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

    With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

    trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

    Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

    Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

    With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

    And vertical progression to tackle to boot? I have already stated their method, they use RNG procs as part of their strategy. THis is ENTIRELY expected. Apples and oranges.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

    trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

    Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

    Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

    With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

    And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

    Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

    Also the gear disparity is minimal at the top end if you researched how Mythic prepare for bosses and run previous bosses for gear rerolls.

    There is no raid guild even close to Method in GW2.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

    trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

    Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

    Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

    With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

    And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

    Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

    It does when they're using RNG to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

    trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

    Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

    Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

    With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

    And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

    Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

    It does when they're using it to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.

    I was raiding in Legion up to heroic. I known people who raid mythic.

    The only thing I can say is: you do not share a mindset with them. I've seldomly heard any of them complain about difficulty. It was always a challenge. That's my main issue tbh, the constant whinning on these forums of "great" players.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

    trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

    Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

    Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

    With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

    And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

    Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

    It does when they're using it to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.

    I was raiding in Legion up to heroic. I known people who raid mythic.

    The only thing I can say is: you do not share a mindset with them. I've seldomly heard any of them complain about difficulty. It was always a challenge. That's my main issue tbh, the constant whinning on these forums of "great" players.

    I never complained about WoW difficulty ever. Keep making more judgements about me.

    Answer this, for the devs, what would you do, in light of power cap being reached, to make raids last longer if that's what you want? Are you looking to turn them into some crazy nightmare where your experienced players' reflexes have a 0.5% chance of succeeding so we get something like method?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.

    Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).

    So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.

    I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.

    This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.

    I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.

    You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.

    Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.

    Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).

    So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.

    1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).

    This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.

    The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.

    Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).

    Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic

    Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.

    All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.

    I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.

    I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.

    Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.

    All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.

    If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.

    This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.

    Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:

    • 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
    • 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
    • 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
    • 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
    • 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
    • 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
    • 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
    • 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
    • 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
    • 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
    • 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
    • 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
    • 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
    • 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
    • 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
    • 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
    • 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
    • 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
    • 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
    • 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
    • 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

    Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
    World first kill by SC after 2 days.

    Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.

    I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.

    You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.

    trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!

    Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?

    Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.

    With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.

    And vertical progression to tackle to boot?

    Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.

    It does when they're using it to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.

    I was raiding in Legion up to heroic. I known people who raid mythic.

    The only thing I can say is: you do not share a mindset with them. I've seldomly heard any of them complain about difficulty. It was always a challenge. That's my main issue tbh, the constant whinning on these forums of "great" players.

    I never complained about WoW difficulty ever. Keep making more judgements about me.

    Answer this, for the devs, what would you do, in light of power cap being reached, to make raids last longer if that's what you want? Are you looking to turn them into some crazy nightmare where your reflexes have a 0.5% chance of succeeding so we get something like method?

    When did I ever mention making raids harder? I think they are perfectly fine where they are now difficulty wise. Given the last strike mission, I'm going to reserve my judgment on which direction this games difficulty for group content goes. I doubt more easy content is the way to go, but that's not my decision.

    I don't care about you complaining or lack thereof about WoW raids. I care about the constant whinning present here (not only from you). The forums have devolved into nothing but a constant whine about content people were unable to clear first try.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    I care about the constant whinning present here (not only from you). The forums have devolved into nothing but a constant whine about content people were unable to clear first try.

    More judgement, we wiped more than once, probably more than the group who beat dhuum in the one night we tried. Anyway, maybe you should just accept the fact that people experience things differently

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    The thing that makes the difference here is that there's way more difference in effectiveness between skill levels of other players. As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x.

    I don't know what's the effect of buffs in WoW but in GW2 composition also plays a very important role in DPS potential. Back in the days of Chrono+Druid+BS meta the composition was offering about triple damage. So the 2 dps slots remaining, were doing more damage than taking 5 random dps roles, plus all the other benefits of having those support builds, healing, survival, CC and so on. This assumes those random dps don't have party wide damage buffs of course, otherwise the damage difference should be smaller, but still the buffs in this game offer a gigantic dps boost, especially if stacked together. I haven't done any tests on how the current meta is, but I assume it is still very similar.

    As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x.

    That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:
    That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is >close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

    Did you get the data from raidar? Most of the logs on there are actually pretty low. At least for the current patch.
    Its probably also important to keep in mind, that the DPS on some bosses (Mirage on SH and Renegade on Qadim 2.0 are an example) doesnt get logged properly. So the average is actually higher.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is >close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

    Did you get the data from raidar? Most of the logs on there are actually pretty low. At least for the current patch.
    Its probably also important to keep in mind, that the DPS on some bosses (Mirage on SH and Renegade on Qadim 2.0 are an example) doesnt get logged properly. So the average is actually higher.

    Yes gw2raidar from 2 patches ago because the current patch has too few logs. The thing is I used the 99% from raidar that's a minority even by raid population standards

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2019

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    The thing that makes the difference here is that there's way more difference in effectiveness between skill levels of other players. As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x.

    I don't know what's the effect of buffs in WoW but in GW2 composition also plays a very important role in DPS potential. Back in the days of Chrono+Druid+BS meta the composition was offering about triple damage. So the 2 dps slots remaining, were doing more damage than taking 5 random dps roles, plus all the other benefits of having those support builds, healing, survival, CC and so on. This assumes those random dps don't have party wide damage buffs of course, otherwise the damage difference should be smaller, but still the buffs in this game offer a gigantic dps boost, especially if stacked together. I haven't done any tests on how the current meta is, but I assume it is still very similar.

    Indeed, buffs (and lack of them) are almost certainly calculated in that difference - the benchmarks of meta builds do include buff effect, while an average player generally runs with only incidental buffs (if any).
    So yeah, group composition also plays an important role. Still, skill is also extremely important. I'm 100% sure, that if you got those archetypical "average players" in proper builds, gear, and group composition, they would still be doing ~3-5x less damage than a normal experienced raid team. And even if we don't consider the impact of skill difference in othe areas (like survivability, both due to being hit more, and lower healing due to lower skill of the healers), that damage difference alone is enough to significantly increase the difficulty of a raid encounter.

    As GW2 devs mentioned lately, dps difference between top and average player is 10x.

    That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

    Probably not. It will be interesting to see what the difference for next strikes (and next difficulty tier for this strike) will be.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    That's probably why the DPS requirement for the Strike Mission is so low. Interesting to note that the top team raid DPS (average across all bosses) is 179,623, which is >close to 10 times the ~16k required by the Strike Mission boss. Coincidence?

    Did you get the data from raidar? Most of the logs on there are actually pretty low. At least for the current patch.
    Its probably also important to keep in mind, that the DPS on some bosses (Mirage on SH and Renegade on Qadim 2.0 are an example) doesnt get logged properly. So the average is actually higher.

    Yes gw2raidar from 2 patches ago because the current patch has too few logs. The thing is I used the 99% from raidar that's a minority even by raid population standards

    Small wonder if the sample sizes are small as it was said that GW2raidar was ceasing to exist o.o Most of the raiders have been using dps.report since that reddit post. But looks like it's still operational so time to dig up some logs from naftaline.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Small wonder if the sample sizes are small as it was said that GW2raidar was ceasing to exist o.o Most of the raiders have been using dps.report since that reddit post. But looks like it's still operational so time to dig up some logs from naftaline.

    Not really, dps.report is far suprior to raidar. A lot of people only used raidar for the leaderboards. However, there was a time where logs wont load and the site itself was super slow so people just stopped bothering.

  • They haven't finally added some comparison/statistics to dps.report, have they? For my taste, that stuff always made raider superior to dps.report, no matter whether the latter contains more details or not.

    Praise delta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    They haven't finally added some comparison/statistics to dps.report, have they? For my taste, that stuff always made raider superior to dps.report, no matter whether the latter contains more details or not.

    Yeah the only reason I look on raidar is because it has global statistics so I can see how I perform compared to the community. I use stats created by Elite Insights to see my group's performance, but you can't really compare with others on dps.report, so I find that website useless. It's buffling that they said gw2raidar was closing, but apparently it's not, or something else is going I never figured that out.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 25, 2019

    Never played WoW nor do I care much about subjective comparisons between these games. There is also the fact that people seem to have greatly opposing opinions on which game had or still has the more difficult raids.
    Only thing I am going to say is that if WoW raids would make me feel the same way our raids do then I'd call them pretty easy with the occasional harder boss (that can be turned into something much easier with the right cheese such as stacking Scourges on Dhuum CM). Wouldn't even be able to rank them properly as most raids feel about the same with the occasional hard raid, as I already said.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • The raids are medium in difficulty as a whole. Some encounters are easier than others but overall achievable for those who want to put in some time and effort. The most difficult part imo are the group formings. I really hate waiting for long periods doing nothing.

  • Dhuum CM was hard mostly because black boi was bugged and inconsistent not because adding him as as a new mechanic was too challenging for people. Bringing this encounter over and over for being "hard" makes me chuckle.

  • @Sigfodr.9576 said:
    W7B3: 3, CP: 2/9 (1 tank, 1 healer and 1 war can carry super hard here. the 9 is untill people learn to place fires correctly. After that it becomes easy to carry)

    Don't forget dps carries. A good ren on qadim 2 can be the only dps you need and its sometimes the only dps you have because pug scourges never have dps for some reason.
    Same for gorseval, kc and a bunch of other bosses. People learn to not die quite fast but most dont care about their dps or have arc still set to cleave and dont even notice their low dps especially on bosses like dhuum. Short dhuum means less chances to fail but there are always some 6-8k dps players in the group.

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