Unless Joko was directly/indirectly given divine power his story makes no sense. It wasn't all lies — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Unless Joko was directly/indirectly given divine power his story makes no sense. It wasn't all lies

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 26, 2019 in Lore
  1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
  2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
  3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
  4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use War, the only other non-domain magic usage from dragons that eat magic from all domains.

He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster. At what point is his repeated claims of divinity still a lie?

Comments

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
    2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
    3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
    4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use war

    He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster.

    1: doesn't meant he has divine power or magic.
    2: While impressive, it could be that Joko knew of a portal to the mists others did not know about (Like the one in the Tomb of Primeval Kings). Or he knew of how/where the Domain of the Lost was, but required Balthazar to get into it. It's important to note Joko had not been raiding the domain, and part of the deal was "Getting a share of the new recruits". This implies to me that Joko knew of the Realm, and how to get to it, but was unable to himself. Also, briefly breaching the Realm of Torment could've been something he learned right after Nightfall, since the Mouth of Torment is within his lands and demons ran all over his turf.
    3: Eh, Joko's power is technically touching every Awoken, Especially ones of great important/leading his troops.
    4: Aurene has only ever "used" his ability to revive himself from "death". She has shown no connection to the Awoken, no ability to raise undead (Or want to).

    As for his Mortality, we know he was functionally immortal, as the only thing that could kill him was a creature who consumed magic. When he was first defeated by Turai Ossa, they had to basically slam a massive boulder onto Joko's face to keep him trapped.

    As for Divinity... He has never claimed the magic of a god. The way the Six worked was when one god lost his divinity/power, the next took it. Abaddon's power was stripped from him, spread to other gods before Kormir took it. Dhuum's power was stripped from him, Grenth claimed it. Balthazar's power was stripped from him (we don't know if or who took it).

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 26, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
    2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
    3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
    4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use war

    He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster.

    1: doesn't meant he has divine power or magic.
    2: While impressive, it could be that Joko knew of a portal to the mists others did not know about (Like the one in the Tomb of Primeval Kings). Or he knew of how/where the Domain of the Lost was, but required Balthazar to get into it. It's important to note Joko had not been raiding the domain, and part of the deal was "Getting a share of the new recruits". This implies to me that Joko knew of the Realm, and how to get to it, but was unable to himself. Also, briefly breaching the Realm of Torment could've been something he learned right after Nightfall, since the Mouth of Torment is within his lands and demons ran all over his turf.
    3: Eh, Joko's power is technically touching every Awoken, Especially ones of great important/leading his troops.

    And? Dervish magic is intended to channel gods. It has nothing to do with an innate connection.

    4: Aurene has only ever "used" his ability to revive himself from "death". She has shown no connection to the Awoken, no ability to raise undead (Or want to).

    And Kralkatorrik only used War to create portals. Again I'm not seeing the point. She also has the ability to raise the dead because Kralkatorrik did. Whether she wants to incorporate Awokeness into it has no bearing on this discussion.

    As for his Mortality, we know he was functionally immortal, as the only thing that could kill him was a creature who consumed magic. When he was first defeated by Turai Ossa, they had to basically slam a massive boulder onto Joko's face to keep him trapped.

    As for Divinity... He has never claimed the magic of a god. The way the Six worked was when one god lost his divinity/power, the next took it. Abaddon's power was stripped from him, spread to other gods before Kormir took it. Dhuum's power was stripped from him, Grenth claimed it. Balthazar's power was stripped from him (we don't know if or who took it).

    He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    4: Aurene has only ever "used" his ability to revive himself from "death". She has shown no connection to the Awoken, no ability to raise undead (Or want to).

    And Kralkatorrik only used War to create portals. Again I'm not seeing the point. She also has the ability to raise the dead because Kralkatorrik did. Whether she wants to incorporate Awokeness into it has no bearing on this discussion.

    There isn't actually evidence to say that Aurene can raise undead or make Awoken. We can speculate, but there isn't anything that 100% says she can.

    As for his Mortality, we know he was functionally immortal, as the only thing that could kill him was a creature who consumed magic. When he was first defeated by Turai Ossa, they had to basically slam a massive boulder onto Joko's face to keep him trapped.

    As for Divinity... He has never claimed the magic of a god. The way the Six worked was when one god lost his divinity/power, the next took it. Abaddon's power was stripped from him, spread to other gods before Kormir took it. Dhuum's power was stripped from him, Grenth claimed it. Balthazar's power was stripped from him (we don't know if or who took it).

    He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

    Very powerful does not equal having any sort of Divinity. Balthazar isn't even human, by the way.

    While Vlast held the potential to become an elder dragon, I'd say that is completely unrelated to divinity. This would be a more accurate comparison when talking about say, Grenth before he became a god, as his mother was Dwayna and thus he did have some divinity.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
    2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
    3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
    4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use War, the only other non-domain magic usage from dragons that eat magic from all domains.

    He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster. At what point is his repeated claims of divinity still a lie?

    1. Not really. He was born circa 800 AE. Same as Mad King Thorn. The Gods had left the world of Tyria roughly 800 years prior to Joko's life, and while they were still interactive, not very much. Joko was alive during a time of major events (Shiro, Odran, titans appearing before Burnt Warband), but this makes him no more special than probably 10 billion people.
    2. Access via the Tomb of the Primeval Kings by all indication. That said, making portals to the Underworld and other afterlives isn't exactly a unique or above-mortal concept. While Lord Odran is famous for making permanent portals, temporary ones can occur quite often - Priestess Rhie in the human PS makes such portals, for example. It takes a bit of effort, but it's far from a divine deed.
    3. I'm not quite sure "channeling someone for more power" is a divine attribute. Especially since it seems to borderline the same attribute as siphoning life/energy from someone (something any necromancer or mesmer can do in GW1). All Awakened have a connection to Joko, as part of his underlined "you must obey my commands" and with some being able to channel Joko's power to create new Awakened. Amala might have something a bit more. This certainly isn't normal, but to call it divine seems a bit of a leap.
    4. This is more an illogical continuity issue than anything else at this point. To say it's evidence of divinity is more of putting the cart before the horse than proof. We'd need quite a bit more to imply he had special magic, especially since this is the same kind of magic used on Khilbron, The Hunter, Fendi Nin, and Zoldark (who used similar magic on all of his undead minions). While it isn't strictly common, lich magic is just binding the soul to the body, and nothing showcases such as divine.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    And? Dervish magic is intended to channel gods. It has nothing to do with an innate connection.

    So were monks per GW1 lore. Turns out they weren't. It was just magic that was believed to be channeling power from the gods.

    Dervishes are the same as monks in this regard.

    He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

    There's more gods out there than in the Six Gods. Zintl, the Great Dwarf, Mellaggan, Koda, etc.

    That said, there's no evidence of him having some aspect of divinity. Joko was still just a normal lich. While we don't know what a never-been-a-god demigod (like pre-godhood Grenth) function like, post-been-a-god demigods like Balthazar are strictly beings made of magic and have no actual body. Joko very much did have a body, as Aurene can attest to.

    I also wouldn't say Vlast "had the power of an Elder Dragon". He was tied to the domain, sure, but that's all. That's no different than saying "Branded Charr Mook #13583 has the power of an Elder Dragon", which attests to jack squat in the grand scale of things.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    4: Aurene has only ever "used" his ability to revive himself from "death". She has shown no connection to the Awoken, no ability to raise undead (Or want to).

    And Kralkatorrik only used War to create portals. Again I'm not seeing the point. She also has the ability to raise the dead because Kralkatorrik did. Whether she wants to incorporate Awokeness into it has no bearing on this discussion.

    There isn't actually evidence to say that Aurene can raise undead or make Awoken. We can speculate, but there isn't anything that 100% says she can.

    That is outside the scope of this discussion. But if she cannot 100% raise undead then she did not replace Kralkatorrik 100%

    As for his Mortality, we know he was functionally immortal, as the only thing that could kill him was a creature who consumed magic. When he was first defeated by Turai Ossa, they had to basically slam a massive boulder onto Joko's face to keep him trapped.

    As for Divinity... He has never claimed the magic of a god. The way the Six worked was when one god lost his divinity/power, the next took it. Abaddon's power was stripped from him, spread to other gods before Kormir took it. Dhuum's power was stripped from him, Grenth claimed it. Balthazar's power was stripped from him (we don't know if or who took it).

    He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

    Very powerful does not equal having any sort of Divinity. Balthazar isn't even human, by the way.

    While Vlast held the potential to become an elder dragon, I'd say that is completely unrelated to divinity. This would be a more accurate comparison when talking about say, Grenth before he became a god, as his mother was Dwayna and thus he did have some divinity.

    In that instance Grenth claiming to be a God would be false until he replaced Dhuum. But claiming to be a god would not.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
    2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
    3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
    4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use War, the only other non-domain magic usage from dragons that eat magic from all domains.

    He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster. At what point is his repeated claims of divinity still a lie?

    1. Not really. He was born circa 800 AE. Same as Mad King Thorn. The Gods had left the world of Tyria roughly 800 years prior to Joko's life, and while they were still interactive, not very much. Joko was alive during a time of major events (Shiro, Odran, titans appearing before Burnt Warband), but this makes him no more special than probably 10 billion people.

    He was alive before and during Nightfall. And the Gods didn't take their stuff. Who knows. Perhaps the Jokanur ruins became that way because Joko found the Apocrypha too early. Or some other situation involving artifacts of divine power.

    1. Access via the Tomb of the Primeval Kings by all indication. That said, making portals to the Underworld and other afterlives isn't exactly a unique or above-mortal concept. While Lord Odran is famous for making permanent portals, temporary ones can occur quite often - Priestess Rhie in the human PS makes such portals, for example. It takes a bit of effort, but it's far from a divine deed.
    2. I'm not quite sure "channeling someone for more power" is a divine attribute. Especially since it seems to borderline the same attribute as siphoning life/energy from someone (something any necromancer or mesmer can do in GW1). All Awakened have a connection to Joko, as part of his underlined "you must obey my commands" and with some being able to channel Joko's power to create new Awakened. Amala might have something a bit more. This certainly isn't normal, but to call it divine seems a bit of a leap.
      > @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
      > And? Dervish magic is intended to channel gods. It has nothing to do with an innate connection.
      So were monks per GW1 lore. Turns out they weren't. It was just magic that was believed to be channeling power from the gods.

    Dervishes are the same as monks in this regard.

    I don't think because some faith magic doesn't require Gods that can be generalized to all faith magic. And I also don't think Dervish use faith magic, or Revenant stuff. The writers had the opportunity to clarify this and did not. Even after the criticism by this community they have not relented to call it just an echo or fake prayer etc.

    You can assume the mysticism was a lie. But you have no confirmation and it can go either way. This is not automatically like the setting of

    Xenocide in which a faction of people wasted parts of their lives performing elaborate rituals to connect with gods who were never talking back in the first place.

    I am not that pessimistic.

    1. This is more an illogical continuity issue than anything else at this point. To say it's evidence of divinity is more of putting the cart before the horse than proof. We'd need quite a bit more to imply he had special magic, especially since this is the same kind of magic used on Khilbron, The Hunter, Fendi Nin, and Zoldark (who used similar magic on all of his undead minions). While it isn't strictly common, lich magic is just binding the soul to the body, and nothing showcases such as divine.

    I don't see why? We have had several Elder Dragons not using stuff from outside domains and having to employ methods like resurrection to get those effects. Then we get two exceptions.

    He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

    There's more gods out there than in the Six Gods. Zintl, the Great Dwarf, Mellaggan, Koda, etc.

    That said, there's no evidence of him having some aspect of divinity. Joko was still just a normal lich. While we don't know what a never-been-a-god demigod (like pre-godhood Grenth) function like, post-been-a-god demigods like Balthazar are strictly beings made of magic and have no actual body. Joko very much did have a body, as Aurene can attest to.

    What exactly is a normal Lich? Khilbron was indirectly given divine power.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    While Vlast held the potential to become an elder dragon, I'd say that is completely unrelated to divinity. This would be a more accurate comparison when talking about say, Grenth before he became a god, as his mother was Dwayna and thus he did have some divinity.

    In that instance Grenth claiming to be a God would be false until he replaced Dhuum. But claiming to be a god would not.

    In the concept of Tyria, There is no "God" versus "god". The capitalized version is used solely for a monotheistic being without a solid name - the closest Tyria has to this is Koda, but even the kodan faith doesn't proclaim Koda as the exclusive god.

    Grenth wasn't a god in any sense until replacing Dhuum, as before that moment he was a demigod at best - he could have been merely mortal.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    He was alive before and during Nightfall. And the Gods didn't take their stuff. Who knows. Perhaps the Jokanur ruins became that way because Joko found the Apocrypha too early. Or some other situation involving artifacts of divine power.

    Fahranur was sealed off since the Scarab Plague, long before Joko was living or made undead. He was a lich long before Nightfall and just being alive during Nightfall doesn't make one divine, nor is there any reason to suggest that they made anyone divine beyond Kormir.

    Besides all this, implication is that the reason Joko became a lich was because of a wish granting djinn. Not divine power.

    I don't think because some faith magic doesn't require Gods that can be generalized to all faith magic. And I also don't think Dervish use faith magic, or Revenant stuff. The writers had the opportunity to clarify this and did not. Even after the criticism by this community they have not relented to call it just an echo or fake prayer etc.

    You can assume the mysticism was a lie. But you have no confirmation and it can go either way. This is not automatically like the setting of

    Xenocide in which a faction of people wasted parts of their lives performing elaborate rituals to connect with gods who were never talking back in the first place.

    I am not that pessimistic.

    We actually can since the entire point of the change is to define something as "faith magic" when it was thought to be "borrowed magic". The entire point was to explain why we had charr monks and destroyer dervishes in GW1, and continue to have guardians among charr, asura, etc. in GW2, when they clearly do not worship the Six Gods.

    It isn't really that "people wasted parts of their lives", but that they "misunderstood where the power came from". The power was still empowered by their faith, they just assumed that it was the object of their devotion, and not that devotion itself, which empowered them.

    Even in Nightfall, the Muse of Lyssa hints to this:

    Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."
    Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you."

    I don't see why? We have had several Elder Dragons not using stuff from outside domains and having to employ methods like resurrection to get those effects. Then we get two exceptions.

    Beyond Aurene, no Elder Dragon has used resurrection, so I'm not really sure what you're tryint to say. So far, the only example of a non-cosmic (read: Elder Dragon or former god) being who's magic could be used, was Joko. This makes Joko an outlier and an inconsistency when the Elder Dragons - and even Aurene - ate non-cosmic magic and do not use that magic when it would be highly beneficial to them.

    What exactly is a normal Lich? Khilbron was indirectly given divine power.

    Nothing indicates Khilbron was given divine power. And what is a normal lich? An undead who's soul is bound to their body via a powerful spell, thus preventing death without forcibly separating the soul from the body (e.g., via bloodstone or destroying the soul itself) or destroying the binding spell itself.

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What's your definition for a god in Tyria?

    Aside from the human pantheon there are dozens of religions in Tyria, each with their own criteria for divinity. Is Zintl (the sun) a god? The majority of hylek certainly think so. (Even the Maguuma tribes who worship Ameyalli instead still acknowledge Zintil, just not as their god.) What about the titans who used to be worshipped by the charr and were only abandoned because humans were able to summon them to Tyria and then kill them, which lead to the charr sharmans declaring them unworthy of worship. If you ask the grawl every other shiny rock, statue and remotely unuusal creature in Tyria is a god.

    Joko was a god in the sense that many people in Elona believed he was and worshipped him as one. In some cases that was based on misinformation (all the stuff we know he made up, like claiming credit for defeating Abaddon and later Zhaitain and Mordremoth) but in other cases it was because of things he really could do, like being immortal and able to ressurect seemingly unlimited numbers of individuals as Awakened, or because they believed that he protected and helped them. That's not really any different to any of Tyria's other religions. How do you decide which of those are actually gods and which are not?

    But if you mean was Joko part of the pantheon of the Six Gods or did he have the same kind of power as they do then the answer is no, he never was at any point in time.

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  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    While Vlast held the potential to become an elder dragon, I'd say that is completely unrelated to divinity. This would be a more accurate comparison when talking about say, Grenth before he became a god, as his mother was Dwayna and thus he did have some divinity.

    In that instance Grenth claiming to be a God would be false until he replaced Dhuum. But claiming to be a god would not.

    In the concept of Tyria, There is no "God" versus "god". The capitalized version is used solely for a monotheistic being without a solid name - the closest Tyria has to this is Koda, but even the kodan faith doesn't proclaim Koda as the exclusive god.

    Grenth wasn't a god in any sense until replacing Dhuum, as before that moment he was a demigod at best - he could have been merely mortal.

    In Tyria there are also no High dragons but it is helpful to distinguish them. Illya, Lyss and Grenth are not gods but they are most likely not mortals either. Whether true breeding is a possibility for the latter is moot because this discussion is not about places in the pantheon. It is heavily implied that Tahlkora recieved a gift from Kormir. If she began claiming to be a god it would be inaccurate, but you would still point out she isn't entirely mortal.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    He was alive before and during Nightfall. And the Gods didn't take their stuff. Who knows. Perhaps the Jokanur ruins became that way because Joko found the Apocrypha too early. Or some other situation involving artifacts of divine power.

    Fahranur was sealed off since the Scarab Plague, long before Joko was living or made undead. He was a lich long before Nightfall and just being alive during Nightfall doesn't make one divine, nor is there any reason to suggest that they made anyone divine beyond Kormir.

    Besides all this, implication is that the reason Joko became a lich was because of a wish granting djinn. Not divine power.

    Explain further?

    I don't think because some faith magic doesn't require Gods that can be generalized to all faith magic. And I also don't think Dervish use faith magic, or Revenant stuff. The writers had the opportunity to clarify this and did not. Even after the criticism by this community they have not relented to call it just an echo or fake prayer etc.

    You can assume the mysticism was a lie. But you have no confirmation and it can go either way. This is not automatically like the setting of

    Xenocide in which a faction of people wasted parts of their lives performing elaborate rituals to connect with gods who were never talking back in the first place.

    I am not that pessimistic.

    We actually can since the entire point of the change is to define something as "faith magic" when it was thought to be "borrowed magic". The entire point was to explain why we had charr monks and destroyer dervishes in GW1, and continue to have guardians among charr, asura, etc. in GW2, when they clearly do not worship the Six Gods.

    It isn't really that "people wasted parts of their lives", but that they "misunderstood where the power came from". The power was still empowered by their faith, they just assumed that it was the object of their devotion, and not that devotion itself, which empowered them.

    Even in Nightfall, the Muse of Lyssa hints to this:

    Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."
    Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you."

    Becoming a wandering ascetic for no reason is a waste. And this presumes the Dervish are even using faith magic. Out of all the categorizations involving the schools and Mists, Preservation is only more convincing than Attrition.

    I don't see why? We have had several Elder Dragons not using stuff from outside domains and having to employ methods like resurrection to get those effects. Then we get two exceptions.

    Beyond Aurene, no Elder Dragon has used resurrection, so I'm not really sure what you're tryint to say. So far, the only example of a non-cosmic (read: Elder Dragon or former god) being who's magic could be used, was Joko. This makes Joko an outlier and an inconsistency when the Elder Dragons - and even Aurene - ate non-cosmic magic and do not use that magic when it would be highly beneficial to them.

    I was referring to the servitor usage of risen spellcasters. Resurrection was the wrong word since it is different from undeath in many settings.

    What exactly is a normal Lich? Khilbron was indirectly given divine power.

    Nothing indicates Khilbron was given divine power. And what is a normal lich? An undead who's soul is bound to their body via a powerful spell, thus preventing death without forcibly separating the soul from the body (e.g., via bloodstone or destroying the soul itself) or destroying the binding spell itself.

    From context I'm assuming you believe the Cataclysm that transformed him into a Lich was not Mists magic? In the DnD universe there is no substantive difference between divine and arcane magic but it is still correct to say Clerics are given divine power. I would argue whether or not the Lost Scrolls invoke magic from outside the All is irrelevant.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    a "corrupted" divine magic explanation will be not so unfit to him, or a link to abbadon.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2019

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    What's your definition for a god in Tyria?

    Aside from the human pantheon there are dozens of religions in Tyria, each with their own criteria for divinity. Is Zintl (the sun) a god? The majority of hylek certainly think so. (Even the Maguuma tribes who worship Ameyalli instead still acknowledge Zintil, just not as their god.) What about the titans who used to be worshipped by the charr and were only abandoned because humans were able to summon them to Tyria and then kill them, which lead to the charr sharmans declaring them unworthy of worship. If you ask the grawl every other shiny rock, statue and remotely unuusal creature in Tyria is a god.

    Joko was a god in the sense that many people in Elona believed he was and worshipped him as one. In some cases that was based on misinformation (all the stuff we know he made up, like claiming credit for defeating Abaddon and later Zhaitain and Mordremoth) but in other cases it was because of things he really could do, like being immortal and able to ressurect seemingly unlimited numbers of individuals as Awakened, or because they believed that he protected and helped them. That's not really any different to any of Tyria's other religions. How do you decide which of those are actually gods and which are not?

    But if you mean was Joko part of the pantheon of the Six Gods or did he have the same kind of power as they do then the answer is no, he never was at any point in time.

    The human gods, like Elder Dragons, operate under an all or nothing principle that is ultimately not helpful language. In the same way that we end up distinguishing Glint from drakes, we end up separating Grenth, stripped Balthazar, and sometimes even Lyss and Ilya (individually) as not gods but more than mortal.

    In the same way that lesser, "high", and elder dragons are all dragons, you should be able to say that demigods, gods, and whatever Joko is, have shared aspects. For the purpose of this discussion, Joko is being considered as having more to him than a mortal. And the source of that oomph either coming from, or being contained within, the powers of a god.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    In Tyria there are also no High dragons but it is helpful to distinguish them. Illya, Lyss and Grenth are not gods but they are most likely not mortals either. Whether true breeding is a possibility for the latter is moot because this discussion is not about places in the pantheon. It is heavily implied that Tahlkora recieved a gift from Kormir. If she began claiming to be a god it would be inaccurate, but you would still point out she isn't entirely mortal.

    Grenth was "half-god", but became a full god. Like how Kormir is no longer human, but a god. Tahlkora's "gift" is interesting, but it doesn't really mean much in context. She simply couldn't be controlled by Joko.

    Explain further?

    In Nightfall, there is a quest you can do that involves a legendary wish-granting Djinn, who can grant any wish at all, but only one wish per century (IIRC). The implication/big theory is that Joko used a wish from that Djinn.

    Becoming a wandering ascetic for no reason is a waste. And this presumes the Dervish are even using faith magic. Out of all the categorizations involving the schools and Mists, Preservation is only more convincing than Attrition.

    That's a highly personal matter, to be honest. Like how in GW2, we can tell a devotee of Kormir in the Desolation that the gods have left, and the reply is "That's... Many of us feared this was the case. Even so...Kormir is still real, and so is our faith. We won't give up hope."

    From context I'm assuming you believe the Cataclysm that transformed him into a Lich was not Mists magic? In the DnD universe there is no substantive difference between divine and arcane magic but it is still correct to say Clerics are given divine power. I would argue whether or not the Lost Scrolls invoke magic from outside the All is irrelevant.

    The Catacylsm was magic from Abaddon yes, but I'd say there is a difference between "Being handed a divine/god spell" and "Being gifted divine magic." Like how the Commander uses holy fire in season 2 of the living story. We obtain what is, divine magic, but cannot use it after that gift is used up. The Vizier, after Orr sank, was just a normal Lich, although also being the most powerful lich we've seen besides Joko.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2019

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    What's your definition for a god in Tyria?

    Aside from the human pantheon there are dozens of religions in Tyria, each with their own criteria for divinity. Is Zintl (the sun) a god? The majority of hylek certainly think so. (Even the Maguuma tribes who worship Ameyalli instead still acknowledge Zintil, just not as their god.) What about the titans who used to be worshipped by the charr and were only abandoned because humans were able to summon them to Tyria and then kill them, which lead to the charr sharmans declaring them unworthy of worship. If you ask the grawl every other shiny rock, statue and remotely unuusal creature in Tyria is a god.

    Joko was a god in the sense that many people in Elona believed he was and worshipped him as one. In some cases that was based on misinformation (all the stuff we know he made up, like claiming credit for defeating Abaddon and later Zhaitain and Mordremoth) but in other cases it was because of things he really could do, like being immortal and able to ressurect seemingly unlimited numbers of individuals as Awakened, or because they believed that he protected and helped them. That's not really any different to any of Tyria's other religions. How do you decide which of those are actually gods and which are not?

    But if you mean was Joko part of the pantheon of the Six Gods or did he have the same kind of power as they do then the answer is no, he never was at any point in time.

    Joko was as much of a god as the mursaat or titans were. Which is to say not at all. His lich peers - Khilbron, Zoldark, Fendi Nin, and The Hunter - are never once suggested to be divine or godlike. Tyria has a number of false gods, and tend to be proven to be false because they're just run-of-the-mill guys. Nothing special among their peers. Joko was ultimately nothing special among his lich peers.

    As it stands, we cannot accurately proclaim whether Koda, Zintl, Ameyalli, Mellaggan, or the Great Dwarf are "true gods" or not, but two of them, at least, do have an attribute that is shared with the Six Gods and the Spirits of the Wild (who are at least god-like): a tie into the Mists and the afterlife.

    We do have a much more concrete set of attributes applied solely to the Six Gods, though, and if Joko had become god-like through the Six, then he would share at least some of these attributes just as Dhuum and Balthazar do in their no-longer-god states. These attributes include:

    • Induce blindness naturally (god only)
    • Can reshape their body (potentially god only)
    • Not living or dead, but beings made of magic with a shell (god-like shared attribute)
    • Tied to some cosmic power (god-like shared attribute)
    • Can safely absorb magic (god-like shared attribute), including souls which forever become a part of them (god-like shared attribute)

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    In Tyria there are also no High dragons but it is helpful to distinguish them. Illya, Lyss and Grenth are not gods but they are most likely not mortals either. Whether true breeding is a possibility for the latter is moot because this discussion is not about places in the pantheon. It is heavily implied that Tahlkora recieved a gift from Kormir. If she began claiming to be a god it would be inaccurate, but you would still point out she isn't entirely mortal.

    Ilya, Lyss, and Grenth are 100% gods.

    Receiving a gift from a god is not the same as being non-mortal or more-than-mortal. The Reapers received similar, but they still died, they were still full on mortals.

    Fahranur was sealed off since the Scarab Plague, long before Joko was living or made undead. He was a lich long before Nightfall and just being alive during Nightfall doesn't make one divine, nor is there any reason to suggest that they made anyone divine beyond Kormir.

    Besides all this, implication is that the reason Joko became a lich was because of a wish granting djinn. Not divine power.

    Explain further?

    Explain what further, which part? If it's about the wish granting Djinn, just read the quest dialogue: In a sealed and buried coffer of Joko, a parchment that the Margonites were after (believed to be a Scripture of Abaddon) was found, after deciphering it was revieled to be unrelated to Abaddon but instead instructions on how to find a djinn that would grant a wish once every century, and that djinn hadn't granted one for well over a century when found - the guy who asked his wish was granted it immediately with no clear repercussions (gaining enough wealth to become of Prince status in Vabbi).

    Becoming a wandering ascetic for no reason is a waste. And this presumes the Dervish are even using faith magic. Out of all the categorizations involving the schools and Mists, Preservation is only more convincing than Attrition.

    It wouldn't be "for no reason" though. And it's more "presuming" that prayer can supplement/replace spellcasting (which is confirmed true, per monks' spellcasting being in the form of prayers).

    Nothing indicates Khilbron was given divine power. And what is a normal lich? An undead who's soul is bound to their body via a powerful spell, thus preventing death without forcibly separating the soul from the body (e.g., via bloodstone or destroying the soul itself) or destroying the binding spell itself.

    From context I'm assuming you believe the Cataclysm that transformed him into a Lich was not Mists magic? In the DnD universe there is no substantive difference between divine and arcane magic but it is still correct to say Clerics are given divine power. I would argue whether or not the Lost Scrolls invoke magic from outside the All is irrelevant.

    Nothing confirmed Khilbron turned into a Lich during the Cataclysm or that the Cataclysm actually has the power to make undead. In fact, Fendi Nin was turned into a lich by King Zoran's Vizier well before the Cataclysm, indicating that either Khilbron or his predecessor knew how to turn one into a lich and no cataclysmic event was necessary.

    How Dungeons and Dragons defines magic is ultimately irrelevant to Guild Wars, since the rules are already very clearly different (no daily limit on spellcasting, for example).

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  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    In Tyria there are also no High dragons but it is helpful to distinguish them. Illya, Lyss and Grenth are not gods but they are most likely not mortals either. Whether true breeding is a possibility for the latter is moot because this discussion is not about places in the pantheon. It is heavily implied that Tahlkora recieved a gift from Kormir. If she began claiming to be a god it would be inaccurate, but you would still point out she isn't entirely mortal.

    Grenth was "half-god", but became a full god. Like how Kormir is no longer human, but a god. Tahlkora's "gift" is interesting, but it doesn't really mean much in context. She simply couldn't be controlled by Joko.

    Explain further?

    In Nightfall, there is a quest you can do that involves a legendary wish-granting Djinn, who can grant any wish at all, but only one wish per century (IIRC). The implication/big theory is that Joko used a wish from that Djinn.

    Interesting. Are there any references in Gw2 to this? Also these aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

    Becoming a wandering ascetic for no reason is a waste. And this presumes the Dervish are even using faith magic. Out of all the categorizations involving the schools and Mists, Preservation is only more convincing than Attrition.

    That's a highly personal matter, to be honest. Like how in GW2, we can tell a devotee of Kormir in the Desolation that the gods have left, and the reply is "That's... Many of us feared this was the case. Even so...Kormir is still real, and so is our faith. We won't give up hope."

    IIRC we were informed the gods are now somewhere in the Mists trying to find a world without Elder Dragons. The hope that Kormir will return is not misplaced. But again this is moot. Monks fooled themselves into using preservation magic. Dervish had/have an actual connection in the same way as Ritualists or Revenants. Whether living Dervish have started channeling echoes is up for debate but invoking a god in a fractal somewhere is still meaningful. Doubly so if they are able to confer like Revenants.

    In retrospect it is possible that Joko, as a very powerful scourge, has sufficient fire abilities that he or his echoes can be used in lieu of Balthazar. In which case he isn't necessarily divine because Dervish are invoking him, just very strong.

    From context I'm assuming you believe the Cataclysm that transformed him into a Lich was not Mists magic? In the DnD universe there is no substantive difference between divine and arcane magic but it is still correct to say Clerics are given divine power. I would argue whether or not the Lost Scrolls invoke magic from outside the All is irrelevant.

    The Catacylsm was magic from Abaddon yes, but I'd say there is a difference between "Being handed a divine/god spell" and "Being gifted divine magic." Like how the Commander uses holy fire in season 2 of the living story. We obtain what is, divine magic, but cannot use it after that gift is used up. The Vizier, after Orr sank, was just a normal Lich, although also being the most powerful lich we've seen besides Joko.

    Well the title is directly/indirectly given divine power. But I see what you mean. Regular folk can have divine abilities (albeit often temporarily) without being divine. And more than mortal doesn't necessarily mean demigod.

    But given the legend you brought up, what if he wished to be a god? If that were his wish he clearly gained immortality and enough power to make people worship him. Is it outside the abilities of such a legendary creature to bestows divine power?

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Nothing confirmed Khilbron turned into a Lich during the Cataclysm or that the Cataclysm actually has the power to make undead. In fact, Fendi Nin was turned into a lich by King Zoran's Vizier well before the Cataclysm, indicating that either Khilbron or his predecessor knew how to turn one into a lich and no cataclysmic event was necessary.

    TBH, It could be possible Khilbron was, secretly, a Lich before he even cast the spell. We don't really know much about the specifics of becoming a lich in Guild wars, beyond they are basically immortal, upper end necromancers.

    And the undead armies of Orr were described to be caused by the sudden, incredibly traumatic death making them unable to notice they had died IIRC, or they were raised by Khilbron's necromancer after the fact. It's a neat detail, in GW1 the undead Orrians were almost all military, where in GW2 they are almost all civilian :P.

  • Nemo.8759Nemo.8759 Member ✭✭

    There are too many things that Anet needs to explain.
    Why is his magic so special?
    Why only he can create awaken?
    How did he become a lich?

    From the performance of POF and LS4, Joko's personal strength is not very strong, he just can not be killed by normal magic or weapon and he can continue to create awaken.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 1, 2019

    Still waiting for Joko crawl out of Aurene's belly and then making her awaken minion. All part of the plan, wait for Aurene to absorb magic of other dragons and then make her his own minion.

  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nemo.8759 said:
    There are too many things that Anet needs to explain.
    Why is his magic so special?
    Why only he can create awaken?
    How did he become a lich?

    From the performance of POF and LS4, Joko's personal strength is not very strong, he just can not be killed by normal magic or weapon and he can continue to create awaken.

    A: His magic, by itself, isn't special. It's a variant of necromancy, and when he tried teaching it to a collection of acolytes, they ended up rebelling against him, making him treat them as criminals and only teaching it to awoken after that. Unless you are talking about his ability to self-revive. That's unique because very few creatures exhibit it, only high end Liches.
    B: Because he created the variant of necromancy related to this. It's not that far removed from typical undead, the big difference is the person's soul is kept within the body, as opposed to the soul going to the mists and the body being undead. Infact, outside of the Forsaken IIRC it's kinda rare for that to occur. We know of Rurik, and Liches, as well as Risen (but those are dragon minions, not considered typical undead). So it's possible for liches to bind souls to their undead bodies, it's just not that often. Infact, we see his minions able to create new Awoken, so it's possible that new awoken may still be able to occur. The difference is Joko could endlessly bring back awoken who died, and it's implied nobody else had this particular ability.
    C: Becoming a lich is a general vagueness of Guild Wars as a universe. This is a question that would be better answered in a general sense of the group, then Joko in particular. The fact his past is pretty unknown is a plus. We don't need to know all the details of his life, nor is it entirely relevant to the story at the moment.

    It should be noted that Joko has only ever been bested by two individuals, the Commander, and Turai Ossa. No other individual or group has gotten close to even defeating, much less reaching Joko. His personal strength/ability is very high, but like a smart leader, he's not often on the front lines directly in combat. He's smart, and knows he can drown the enemy in Awoken, then just revive the waves over and over until his goals are achieved.

    The only people who actually "killed" Joko and forced him to self-res, was two highly skilled/powerful individuals. And even they weren't able to finish the job. Turai was able to trap Joko before he got back up, while Joko had learned from that defeat and had a trap in place for when the Commander managed to defeat him, to allow him time to get back up.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Nemo.8759 said:
    There are too many things that Anet needs to explain.
    Why is his magic so special?
    Why only he can create awaken?
    How did he become a lich?

    From the performance of POF and LS4, Joko's personal strength is not very strong, he just can not be killed by normal magic or weapon and he can continue to create awaken.

    A: His magic, by itself, isn't special. It's a variant of necromancy, and when he tried teaching it to a collection of acolytes, they ended up rebelling against him, making him treat them as criminals and only teaching it to awoken after that. Unless you are talking about his ability to self-revive. That's unique because very few creatures exhibit it, only high end Liches.

    I think the reason for asking "why is his magic so special" is why it gave Aurene new abilities, when eating normal magic doesn't do that for Elder Dragons (or their champions/scions as we've seen so far).

    It should be noted that Joko has only ever been bested by two individuals, the Commander, and Turai Ossa. No other individual or group has gotten close to even defeating, much less reaching Joko. His personal strength/ability is very high, but like a smart leader, he's not often on the front lines directly in combat. He's smart, and knows he can drown the enemy in Awoken, then just revive the waves over and over until his goals are achieved.

    I would disagree that his personal strength is high. Like you say, he's "not often on the front lines directly in combat". The only reason why two people have managed to beat Joko (I would argue that the second is Aurene, not the Commander, who was trapped by Joko mid-combat - Joko wasn't imprisoned immediately while immobilized, because Turai and the Order of Whispers attempted to kill him many times) is only because Joko fought only a few people directly.

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kalavier.1097 said:

    @Nemo.8759 said:
    There are too many things that Anet needs to explain.
    Why is his magic so special?
    Why only he can create awaken?
    How did he become a lich?

    From the performance of POF and LS4, Joko's personal strength is not very strong, he just can not be killed by normal magic or weapon and he can continue to create awaken.

    A: His magic, by itself, isn't special. It's a variant of necromancy, and when he tried teaching it to a collection of acolytes, they ended up rebelling against him, making him treat them as criminals and only teaching it to awoken after that. Unless you are talking about his ability to self-revive. That's unique because very few creatures exhibit it, only high end Liches.

    I think the reason for asking "why is his magic so special" is why it gave Aurene new abilities, when eating normal magic doesn't do that for Elder Dragons (or their champions/scions as we've seen so far).

    Well, how many mortals did the elder dragons consume? They seem perfectly content to snack on artifacts (in Zhaitan's case) or ley-lines directly. The only actual being we've seen any of them consume rather than have a minion kill has been Balthazar or other dragons, and we did see them gain new powers from that. Mordremoth was closest, but he didn't actually kill those he captured, instead using them as templates for copying.

    The only mortal who's magic we have actually seen consumed by a dragon was Joko. All the rest is indirect.

    Plague Signet is the only skill in the game that is worse when traited.

  • @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    Well, how many mortals did the elder dragons consume?

    Literally kitten millions.

    Every single dragon minion = a mortal who's magic the Elder Dragons consumed. The process of making a dragon minion is explained in the PS to be first stealing the victim's magic, then the ED forcing their own magic in. Gorr's weaponry developed for the Pact uses the same techniques, stealing magic from dragon minions and "poisoning" it before sending it back - thus why the Pact's cannons are so effective against dragon minions (and Zhaitan).

    This was also how Jormag rose, explicitly - Drakkar siphoned magic off of the Sons of Svanir to feed Jormag. If any mortal's magic becomes available to the Elder Dragons, then Drakkar and Jormag should have gotten plenty of norn magic before even awakening, even if they decide to retcon the above corruption spreading process.

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  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think the reason for asking "why is his magic so special" is why it gave Aurene new abilities, when eating normal magic doesn't do that for Elder Dragons (or their champions/scions as we've seen so far).

    Ah, in that regard, probably because other dragons had eaten liches before. The Liches under Zhaitan were made by him, not others.

    I would disagree that his personal strength is high. Like you say, he's "not often on the front lines directly in combat". The only reason why two people have managed to beat Joko (I would argue that the second is Aurene, not the Commander, who was trapped by Joko mid-combat - Joko wasn't imprisoned immediately while immobilized, because Turai and the Order of Whispers attempted to kill him many times) is only because Joko fought only a few people directly.

    Agree somewhat. I wouldn't say he's pretty strong, but he picks his fight very well. And rarely has appeared completely alone. Turai Ossa, and the Commander faced him alone. I'd probably say he is individually weaker then perhaps Khilbron from GW1, but fields his army and tactics much better.

    Though, I think you said it earlier. Joko is impressive when compared to normal necromancers. Compare to his Peers (Liches) and he's... not that special.

  • @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Ah, in that regard, probably because other dragons had eaten liches before. The Liches under Zhaitan were made by him, not others.

    Thing is, if "eating a mortal with special magic" was enough to give the Elder Dragon said special magic, why didn't Jormag just eat the Wolf Havroun? Why keep him a living prisoner instead? Or how about when Jomrag corrupted the Voice of Koda in Honor of the Waves, why didn't Jormag gain the abilities of a Voice? And Jormag was awoken by Drakkar siphoning a bunch of magic from various norn - by all right, shouldn't Jormag have enough "norn magic" to make all icebrood capable of animal transformations? Especially since he ate Owl as well.

    Why was Joko's magic so special as to be on par to Elder Dragons and gods? Why is it so special to be greater than that of a Spirit of the Wild?

    The only answer that makes sense, imo, would be that it's not Joko's magic which was special, but Aurene's own lack of magic that allowed her to tap into magic not on such a grand scale. But at the same time, now that she's an Elder Dragon, she shouldn't have access to that magic (which would be a nice way to make her mortal again, and the threat of her death real once more).

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Though, I think you said it earlier. Joko is impressive when compared to normal necromancers. Compare to his Peers (Liches) and he's... not that special.

    I think compared to other exemplary necromancers like Verata, Livia, Jurah, Olias, and he'd not be so special either. The main thing Joko has going over them is having had more time to experiment with and refine his necromancy.

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  • Kalavier.1097Kalavier.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The only answer that makes sense, imo, would be that it's not Joko's magic which was special, but Aurene's own lack of magic that allowed her to tap into magic not on such a grand scale. But at the same time, now that she's an Elder Dragon, she shouldn't have access to that magic (which would be a nice way to make her mortal again, and the threat of her death real once more).

    The other aspect, perhaps is that his immortality was caused by the wish-granting Djinn, and thus is actually special/unique magic compared to the rest of the liches. So when Aurene consumed him, that particular magic effect/whatever went to her instead?

    Of course, I can easily accept that at the time, Joko's magic was much more of a chunk compared to the rest of her absorbed magic, as opposed to Kralk or other elder dragons where the same amount would be a lot less.

    @Kalavier.1097 said:
    Though, I think you said it earlier. Joko is impressive when compared to normal necromancers. Compare to his Peers (Liches) and he's... not that special.

    I think compared to other exemplary necromancers like Verata, Livia, Jurah, Olias, and he'd not be so special either. The main thing Joko has going over them is having had more time to experiment with and refine his necromancy.

    Experience/skill does have a big effect on stuff, yes.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, Khilbron was also immortal and needed to be slain atop the Ring of Fire Bloodstone in order for heroes to use it to siphon his lifeforce (as souls are basically a form of magic, and Bloodstones were meant to contain magic) off of him and render him vulnerable. I always wondered how Rurik learned this information so he could inform the heroes on how to beat the Undead Lich at Hell's Precipice.

    While the Vabbian djinn overseer is certainly one candidate for Joko's lichdom (if the devs thought of making the djinn be a trickster whose wishes tend to be literal or have another hidden twist), I always wondered if Joko possessing some of Abaddon's forbidden scrolls (as suggested by the Ascension Pilgrim dialogue) had something to do with his turn, especially when we remember that Khilbron also invoked Abaddon's forbidden scrolls to cause the Cataclysm and returned as a lich sometime later (and how Fendi Nin was cursed by King Zoran's vizier who could've had access to the forbidden scrolls in Arah similar to Khilbron). It would make sense for the God of Wisdom/Secrets, who likely hoarded knowledge of all kinds similar to the goddess Kormir, to have written down forbidden information on how to cheat death and use souls to sustain an undead body with lifeforce indefinitely, and Joko may have abused this information to his leisure. If this lich magic is of divine origin (via Abaddon or otherwise), it would also explain why Joko's magic would be notable enough for Aurene to use so effectively given the way dragons and Elder Dragons feed on and learn from specific forms of magic.

    One of the reasons I wanted there to be an Episode 5.5 in Season 4 was to explore the origin of liches to figure out what grants them such power and how it could be used to Aurene's benefit. It would've been nice to seek out the guidance of Raven as a spirit guide in the Underworld to find Aurene's trapped soul in whatever dragon afterlife she'd end up in and help her, as a newborn lich, in her first resurrection. We could've traversed the Sulfurous Wastes and maybe entered the Great Margonite Temple, Abaddon's intended seat of power had he been able to succeed with Nightfall, to find the Abaddon scrolls that Joko might have hidden there. Perhaps we could've run into the surviving good Margonites like the Apostate and the Lost who could've told us more information about the All, and we'd help Aurene find her path through the afterlife while fending off the Hunter, a Margonite granted lich-like powers by Khilbron and trapped in the Mists, who might mistake the Commander's scent for the GW1 Hero he had been sent to hunt back in Nightfall (as some NPCs have commented on a familiar sensation on speaking with the Commander if the GW2 player has linked Hall of Monuments with GW1) and would act as an obstacle to Aurene's revival that we needed to overcome. :)

  • @Kossage.9072 said:
    especially when we remember that Khilbron also invoked Abaddon's forbidden scrolls to cause the Cataclysm and returned as a lich sometime later (and how Fendi Nin was cursed by King Zoran's vizier who could've had access to the forbidden scrolls in Arah similar to Khilbron).

    It should be noted that the Lost Scrolls are not stated to be Abaddon's. They were kept away by the gods, and predated the Exodus, but that's all we have on their origins.

    the Hunter, a Margonite granted lich-like powers by Khilbron and trapped in the Mists,

    The Hunter wasn't a Margonite, but a Shiro'ken - a construct created by Shiro Tagachi and empowered by a trapped soul. Which makes the lichdom magic on it even more curious, because it wasn't even a flesh body like normal liches, but an artificial body created of metal and, well, some bone.

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  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2019

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    If this lich magic is of divine origin (via Abaddon or otherwise), it would also explain why Joko's magic would be notable enough for Aurene to use so effectively given the way dragons and Elder Dragons feed on and learn from specific forms of magic.

    Perhaps this defeats my original point. But isn't divine magic and mists magic the same things? Like is there a substantive difference between revenant and divine spellcasting? Maybe it's not Joko that's special but Tyrian magic is restricted by the All. EDs cannot intentionally go outside their spheres because it stresses the system.

    Maybe Aurene was allowed to eat Joko. But Jormag had to use persuasion magic with the Havroun. Kralkatorrik could passively absorb parts of Balthazar but not actively consume him.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    If this lich magic is of divine origin (via Abaddon or otherwise), it would also explain why Joko's magic would be notable enough for Aurene to use so effectively given the way dragons and Elder Dragons feed on and learn from specific forms of magic.

    Perhaps this defeats my original point. But isn't divine magic and mists magic the same things? Like is there a substantive difference between revenant and divine spellcasting? Maybe it's not Joko that's special but Tyrian magic is restricted by the All. EDs cannot intentionally go outside their spheres because it stresses the system.

    Maybe Aurene was allowed to eat Joko. But Jormag had to use persuasion magic with the Havroun. Kralkatorrik could passively absorb parts of Balthazar but not actively consume him.

    We're not entirely clear if "Mists magic" and "divine magic" are different.

    On one hand, we have this which would imply it's the same (or very similar) as it takes magic of divine origin (e.g., Jade Wind) and tears in the Mists (e.g., Temple of the Ages) and combines them under "energy of the Mists". There is one slight inconsistency in these items though, in that Exalted magic is put on par to Ley Line (aka Tyrian) magic when Exalted magic comes from the Forgotten which is non-Tyrian origins (and thus why the Exalted cannot be corrupted just as Forgotten magic can counter corruption).

    On the other hand, the fact that Balthazar twisted Tyrian magic into divine magic implies that it functions far more similarly to dragon magic - which is basically "normal magic" altered into another form.

    Normally, Elder Dragons can consume normal magic just fine, and it would seem they can even consume the Mists just fine, but divine magic has some sort of "barrier of understanding" that prevents its consumption unless in a freed state (e.g., Balthazar's death). Tyrian magic can be warped into either dragon or divine magic, and not all divine magic is of Tyrian origin (the implication being that the original divine magic comes from the human homeworld that largely lacks magic except for the Six Gods' divine magic as far as we're currently aware).

    Suffice it to say, the answer is: unclear.

    The issue is, Jormag ate Owl. That should be as good as Kralkatorrik and Aurene eating Balthazar in regards to becoming capable of consuming "Mists magic" regardless of whether divine magic and Mists magic are the same or not.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    If this lich magic is of divine origin (via Abaddon or otherwise), it would also explain why Joko's magic would be notable enough for Aurene to use so effectively given the way dragons and Elder Dragons feed on and learn from specific forms of magic.

    Perhaps this defeats my original point. But isn't divine magic and mists magic the same things? Like is there a substantive difference between revenant and divine spellcasting? Maybe it's not Joko that's special but Tyrian magic is restricted by the All. EDs cannot intentionally go outside their spheres because it stresses the system.

    Maybe Aurene was allowed to eat Joko. But Jormag had to use persuasion magic with the Havroun. Kralkatorrik could passively absorb parts of Balthazar but not actively consume him.

    We're not entirely clear if "Mists magic" and "divine magic" are different.

    On one hand, we have this which would imply it's the same (or very similar) as it takes magic of divine origin (e.g., Jade Wind) and tears in the Mists (e.g., Temple of the Ages) and combines them under "energy of the Mists". There is one slight inconsistency in these items though, in that Exalted magic is put on par to Ley Line (aka Tyrian) magic when Exalted magic comes from the Forgotten which is non-Tyrian origins (and thus why the Exalted cannot be corrupted just as Forgotten magic can counter corruption).

    On the other hand, the fact that Balthazar twisted Tyrian magic into divine magic implies that it functions far more similarly to dragon magic - which is basically "normal magic" altered into another form.

    Normally, Elder Dragons can consume normal magic just fine, and it would seem they can even consume the Mists just fine, but divine magic has some sort of "barrier of understanding" that prevents its consumption unless in a freed state (e.g., Balthazar's death). Tyrian magic can be warped into either dragon or divine magic, and not all divine magic is of Tyrian origin (the implication being that the original divine magic comes from the human homeworld that largely lacks magic except for the Six Gods' divine magic as far as we're currently aware).

    Suffice it to say, the answer is: unclear.

    The issue is, Jormag ate Owl. That should be as good as Kralkatorrik and Aurene eating Balthazar in regards to becoming capable of consuming "Mists magic" regardless of whether divine magic and Mists magic are the same or not.

    But Owl is a spirit. Doesn't that fall under Preservation magic? Like https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consume_Soul
    IIRC Dervish and Rangers don't "consume" them. And Revenants only can under the influence of Glint.

    If ED are entirely beholden to this system of maintaining magic levels. Why would they actively eat gods?

    Kralkatorrik is the first to physically enter the Mists after we released Balthazar's magic for him. And look how much damage it did.

    Assuming the All was created under intelligent design, only passive hunger would be tolerated. And an ED can no more choose to eat a god than Jormag can choose to use Bubble's spheres. The war domain does not belong on the planet.

  • Owl wasn't merely a spirit. She's a Spirit of the Wild. While we're unclear on the exact nature of what Spirits of the Wild and nature spirits are, they're far above normal spirits, as they represent entire physical concepts (animals, elements, landscapes). The four schools don't seem relevant to the Elder Dragons, so not sure why you bring that up (and it's definitely not only preservation that deals with souls, as necromancy does too). Also, revenants don't consume spirits, they channel echoes - they don't deal with spirits at all (nor Glint, technically; only Rytlock met Glint).

    If ED are entirely beholden to this system of maintaining magic levels. Why would they actively eat gods?

    Not sure what you're asking or prefacing here. The Elder Dragons are greedy and relentless in their want to consume magic for their own gains. They do not actively target gods, not even Kralkatorrik did, but when a demigod happens to die in front of them and unleash a bunch of magic, of course they'd consume that magic.

    Assuming the All was created under intelligent design, only passive hunger would be tolerated.

    That's a very bold assumption, something unfounded and even and downright false if we're talking about the current state (as of beginning of GW2), given the fact that Kralkatorrik has a parent. This is proof that at least some Elder Dragon(s) are not the original. Kralkatorrik's situation of being tormented by magic because it has been consuming from ley lines for multiple millennia is also proof that even if all the Elder Dragons were originals, their current actions are not part of the intended process.

    And an ED can no more choose to eat a god than Jormag can choose to use Bubble's spheres. The war domain does not belong on the planet.

    This is very much false, as has been proven. Consuming the magic of cosmic beings, such as Elder Dragons and demigods, definitely allows an Elder Dragon to access that magic.

    But only that.

    Except with Joko for Aurene for some reason beyond asspull "we killed her, we gotta bringer her back while restricting ourselves to 6 episodes".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Owl wasn't merely a spirit. She's a Spirit of the Wild. While we're unclear on the exact nature of what Spirits of the Wild and nature spirits are, they're far above normal spirits, as they represent entire physical concepts (animals, elements, landscapes). The four schools don't seem relevant to the Elder Dragons, so not sure why you bring that up (and it's definitely not only preservation that deals with souls, as necromancy does too). Also, revenants don't consume spirits, they channel echoes - they don't deal with spirits at all (nor Glint, technically; only Rytlock met Glint).

    We were specifically told some dragons are lesser. There is no baseline for spirits. Owl was strong, but not necessarily special. Just as others have said liches are not above normal necromancers.

    Regardless of which school you classify it under, "consuming" spirits/ghostly substances is something even mortals can do. It being within the persuasion domain would not be surprising. Ritualist abilities had to go somewhere. And death/shadow wasn't cutting it.

    Assuming the All was created under intelligent design, only passive hunger would be tolerated.

    That's a very bold assumption, something unfounded and even and downright false if we're talking about the current state (as of beginning of GW2), given the fact that Kralkatorrik has a parent. This is proof that at least some Elder Dragon(s) are not the original. Kralkatorrik's situation of being tormented by magic because it has been consuming from ley lines for multiple millennia is also proof that even if all the Elder Dragons were originals, their current actions are not part of the intended process.

    What does that have to do with Elder Dragons not intentionally adding imbalance to a system designed to manage native magic levels?

    And an ED can no more choose to eat a god than Jormag can choose to use Bubble's spheres. The war domain does not belong on the planet.

    This is very much false, as has been proven. Consuming the magic of cosmic beings, such as Elder Dragons and demigods, definitely allows an Elder Dragon to access that magic.

    But only that.

    Except with Joko for Aurene for some reason beyond asspull "we killed her, we gotta bringer her back while restricting ourselves to 6 episodes".

    Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. Jormag cannot randomly start using Bubble's domains while the other is still living. And Balthazar's magic should not be on Tyria. Which one are you contesting?

    The Elder Dragons do not eat each other. They do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines. The All probably does not account for Mist entities having their magic thrown in the faces of hungry dragons by mortal heroes.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We were specifically told some dragons are lesser. There is no baseline for spirits. Owl was strong, but not necessarily special. Just as others have said liches are not above normal necromancers.

    This is very much not true. It's very clear that nature spirits (not talking about ranger skills here) are special. Forest spirits like Urgoz, sea spirits like Zhu Hanuku, and animal spirits like Nulfastu - these are more than mere souls of the dead.

    When Owl died, this death impacted all living owls. The Spirits of the Wild are not some simple dead individual, but is actually connected to the species itself.

    And you don't get souls of the dead that are literally the spirit of fire, mountains, darkness, or seasons. Which again, are spirits that encompass the representation of these elements and landscapes.

    We have normal souls of the dead, which ritualists summoned and used. Then we have nature spirits, which are diety-like entities that are representations of animals, landscapes, and elements - Bear, Owl, Urgoz, Zhu Hanuku, Nulfastu, Fire. Zintl and Amiyali likely fall under these kinds of spirits.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Regardless of which school you classify it under, "consuming" spirits/ghostly substances is something even mortals can do. It being within the persuasion domain would not be surprising. Ritualist abilities had to go somewhere. And death/shadow wasn't cutting it.

    I mean, yes and no. I don't think the skill "Consume Spirit" is literally eating a spirit. That'd be downright villainous of a skill for players to have. But demons and gods can eat spirits too. And they gain something out of it. But then again, we've never seen them consume a nature spirit - and eating a soul of the dead is a very vastly different thing than eating a nature spirit.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    That's a very bold assumption, something unfounded and even and downright false if we're talking about the current state (as of beginning of GW2), given the fact that Kralkatorrik has a parent. This is proof that at least some Elder Dragon(s) are not the original. Kralkatorrik's situation of being tormented by magic because it has been consuming from ley lines for multiple millennia is also proof that even if all the Elder Dragons were originals, their current actions are not part of the intended process.

    What does that have to do with Elder Dragons not intentionally adding imbalance to a system designed to manage native magic levels?

    Everything.

    If the system was created via intellectual design, then either the creator made a massive flaw in designing the Elder Dragons, or the Elder Dragons as we know them are not part of the system design, as with the current Elder Dragons the system is massively broken explicitly because the Elder Dragons are intentionally adding imbalance to the system.

    Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. Jormag cannot randomly start using Bubble's domains while the other is still living. And Balthazar's magic should not be on Tyria. Which one are you contesting?

    The Elder Dragons do not eat each other. They do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines. The All probably does not account for Mist entities having their magic thrown in the faces of hungry dragons by mortal heroes.

    Kralkatorrik ate Balthazar's magic. That's effectively the same thing at this point.

    It's possible that eating a dragon champion will allow tapping into the domain, since eating demigods allow tapping into foreign magical domains.

    Balthazar's magic shouldn't be on Tyria, but it is.

    The Elder Dragons don't actively eat each other because they are more-or-less equals and they're not risk takers. But when the others become weakened, well, we see what Primordus did - he moved across the continent to get at Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magic. I would definitely argue against the notion that "they do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines" simply because they seek out magic in all forms, and most importantly all mortals contain magic. Their very act of creating dragon minions is the Elder Dragons "seeking out beings that hold magic".

    Just because the Elder Dragons don't personally hunt down creatures, doesn't mean they wouldn't seek their magic. Take djinn for example - they use Abaddon's magic to avoid dragon corruption, and Kralkatorrik sought out enough to have multiple djinn show up during All or Nothing's climax. Or take the Exalted - Mordremoth was actively targeting Tarir and the Exalted's magic, even though he couldn't corrupt them. He instead created two types of special minions for the task - Vinetooths to hunt them down, and Octovines to learn and consume their magic (you can note that Octovines are "chewing" at the bubble in the meta with hidden mouths).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We were specifically told some dragons are lesser. There is no baseline for spirits. Owl was strong, but not necessarily special. Just as others have said liches are not above normal necromancers.

    This is very much not true. It's very clear that nature spirits (not talking about ranger skills here) are special. Forest spirits like Urgoz, sea spirits like Zhu Hanuku, and animal spirits like Nulfastu - these are more than mere souls of the dead.

    When Owl died, this death impacted all living owls. The Spirits of the Wild are not some simple dead individual, but is actually connected to the species itself.

    And you don't get souls of the dead that are literally the spirit of fire, mountains, darkness, or seasons. Which again, are spirits that encompass the representation of these elements and landscapes.

    We have normal souls of the dead, which ritualists summoned and used. Then we have nature spirits, which are diety-like entities that are representations of animals, landscapes, and elements - Bear, Owl, Urgoz, Zhu Hanuku, Nulfastu, Fire. Zintl and Amiyali likely fall under these kinds of spirits.

    A high dragon is Elder-like and Lich are no mere necromancers. But being like something, as so many have pointed out to me (including yourself) is not sufficient.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Regardless of which school you classify it under, "consuming" spirits/ghostly substances is something even mortals can do. It being within the persuasion domain would not be surprising. Ritualist abilities had to go somewhere. And death/shadow wasn't cutting it.

    I mean, yes and no. I don't think the skill "Consume Spirit" is literally eating a spirit. That'd be downright villainous of a skill for players to have. But demons and gods can eat spirits too. And they gain something out of it. But then again, we've never seen them consume a nature spirit - and eating a soul of the dead is a very vastly different thing than eating a nature spirit.

    It is no more villanous than consuming life force. As long as you don't take a debilitating or deadly amount it doesn't matter.

    Is a thief consuming ectoplasm by putting it in his mouth? Probably not. But that doesn't stop him from destroying it and gaining something.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    That's a very bold assumption, something unfounded and even and downright false if we're talking about the current state (as of beginning of GW2), given the fact that Kralkatorrik has a parent. This is proof that at least some Elder Dragon(s) are not the original. Kralkatorrik's situation of being tormented by magic because it has been consuming from ley lines for multiple millennia is also proof that even if all the Elder Dragons were originals, their current actions are not part of the intended process.

    What does that have to do with Elder Dragons not intentionally adding imbalance to a system designed to manage native magic levels?

    Everything.

    If the system was created via intellectual design, then either the creator made a massive flaw in designing the Elder Dragons, or the Elder Dragons as we know them are not part of the system design, as with the current Elder Dragons the system is massively broken explicitly because the Elder Dragons are intentionally adding imbalance to the system.

    The Elder Dragons are not intentionally doing anything. They have uncontrollable hunger and we gave him magic he should never had had access to the first place. Once he gained War he gained access to more food.

    Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. Jormag cannot randomly start using Bubble's domains while the other is still living. And Balthazar's magic should not be on Tyria. Which one are you contesting?

    The Elder Dragons do not eat each other. They do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines. The All probably does not account for Mist entities having their magic thrown in the faces of hungry dragons by mortal heroes.

    Kralkatorrik ate Balthazar's magic. That's effectively the same thing at this point.

    Well no. His form is separate from the domains within him. It disintegrated. And then Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed what we released.
    He was not eaten any more than Kormir ate Abaddon.

    It's possible that eating a dragon champion will allow tapping into the domain, since eating demigods allow tapping into foreign magical domains.

    Balthazar's magic shouldn't be on Tyria, but it is.

    The Elder Dragons don't actively eat each other because they are more-or-less equals and they're not risk takers. But when the others become weakened, well, we see what Primordus did - he moved across the continent to get at Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's magic. I would definitely argue against the notion that "they do not seek out and eat beings that hold magic not found in the ley-lines" simply because they seek out magic in all forms, and most importantly all mortals contain magic. Their very act of creating dragon minions is the Elder Dragons "seeking out beings that hold magic".

    It is not a risk to eat or corrupt another's minions if you are equals. All mortals contain dragon magic, but not divine magic so I don't see how that's relevant. And by all indication Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar, we majorily goofed and put chum in the water.

    Just because the Elder Dragons don't personally hunt down creatures, doesn't mean they wouldn't seek their magic. Take djinn for example - they use Abaddon's magic to avoid dragon corruption, and Kralkatorrik sought out enough to have multiple djinn show up during All or Nothing's climax. Or take the Exalted - Mordremoth was actively targeting Tarir and the Exalted's magic, even though he couldn't corrupt them. He instead created two types of special minions for the task - Vinetooths to hunt them down, and Octovines to learn and consume their magic (you can note that Octovines are "chewing" at the bubble in the meta with hidden mouths).

    Being uncorruptable does not mean unappetising. Or not containing bloodstone magic.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    A high dragon is Elder-like and Lich are no mere necromancers. But being like something, as so many have pointed out to me (including yourself) is not sufficient.

    I think the issue you're having is that you're putting everything onto the same scale of "important vs. not important".

    Sure, a lich is no mere necromancer, in that their soul is bound to their body, but that doesn't put them on par to Elder Dragons or even demigods. And the so-called "high dragons" include not just Elder Dragons, but dragons that are capable of becoming Elder Dragons (e.g., Glint, Vlast, and Aurene).

    It is no more villanous than consuming life force. As long as you don't take a debilitating or deadly amount it doesn't matter.

    Is a thief consuming ectoplasm by putting it in his mouth? Probably not. But that doesn't stop him from destroying it and gaining something.

    Consuming a sapient soul for the sake of energy is indeed a very morally wrong act, no matter how you spin it. I don't think it's possible not to take a "debilitating or deadly amount" of a soul, since every example we have is "all or none" (even the skill, which will despawn the spirit, leading me to think that the skill is more of an "unsummon to get some energy back" skill that's fanicily named).

    Ectoplasm isn't a soul, btw.

    The Elder Dragons are not intentionally doing anything. They have uncontrollable hunger and we gave him magic he should never had had access to the first place. Once he gained War he gained access to more food.

    If you still think this, you haven't been paying attention to the Elder Dragons' motivations in the plot.

    Kralkatorrik was more than just "uncontrollable hunger". He saw a future where mortals and dragons coexisted and he wasn't part of that, and he sought to ensure such a future didn't occur. That was his "intentionally doing something". To ensure this future didn't occur, he consumed magic to gain power, and assaulted mortals. His act of consuming magic to gain power resulted in this still not-fully-defined Torment growing inside him.

    Zhaitan is repeatedly stated to have been after creating an eternal nation to rule. Those it corrupted were doing the same things as a risen as they did before death, except for the royalty that were "demoted" to being his eyes across Orr, to demonstrate this. And Zhaitan went about it by consuming magic and forcing people to its reign.

    Jormag's even more obvious, with all the promises of power and actively letting go those who refuse it's offerings.

    The Elder Dragons are acting with intent, they each have individual goals which require gaining power to fulfill (thus leading to torment, should all be affected as Kralkatorrik was); the whole "mindlessness" was the typical Tyrian view of the Elder Dragons when there were far fewer survivors to talk about interactions with dragon minions (or any face-to-face time with the Elder Dragons themselves) and in all honesty, the mindlessness and force of nature concept faded away with Edge of Destiny novel (as it explicitly told us that Kralkatorrik was a thinking mind).

    Well no. His form is separate from the domains within him. It disintegrated. And then Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed what we released.
    He was not eaten any more than Kormir ate Abaddon.

    Dragons eat magic. Magic is life. Eating someone's magic = eating that someone.

    I think you're being too nitpicky on exact terms.

    The act of Aurene eating Joko's body is fundamentally irrelevant to everything. That first bite where Joko's magic was unbound was the only bite that mattered in that situation.

    It is not a risk to eat or corrupt another's minions if you are equals. All mortals contain dragon magic, but not divine magic so I don't see how that's relevant. And by all indication Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar, we majorily goofed and put chum in the water.

    Of course it's a risk, since you don't know the outcome if two near-equals fight.

    Dragon magic is defined throughout the story (specifically SE, CoE, and Thaumanova fractal) as the corrupting magic of Elder Dragons. No mortal contains that magic, because if they did they'd be dragon minions. But I wasn't saying that mortals contain "divine magic"; I was saying that mortals contain magic - magic which is not in the ley-lines.

    Kralkatorrik did not personally seek out Balthazar because Elder Dragons do not personally seek out their targets. We don't know how many branded were sent after Balthazar as Balthazar made his way through the desert, so we cannot say that "Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar". But Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    A high dragon is Elder-like and Lich are no mere necromancers. But being like something, as so many have pointed out to me (including yourself) is not sufficient.

    I think the issue you're having is that you're putting everything onto the same scale of "important vs. not important".

    Sure, a lich is no mere necromancer, in that their soul is bound to their body, but that doesn't put them on par to Elder Dragons or even demigods. And the so-called "high dragons" include not just Elder Dragons, but dragons that are capable of becoming Elder Dragons (e.g., Glint, Vlast, and Aurene).

    There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

    It is no more villanous than consuming life force. As long as you don't take a debilitating or deadly amount it doesn't matter.

    Is a thief consuming ectoplasm by putting it in his mouth? Probably not. But that doesn't stop him from destroying it and gaining something.

    Consuming a sapient soul for the sake of energy is indeed a very morally wrong act, no matter how you spin it. I don't think it's possible not to take a "debilitating or deadly amount" of a soul, since every example we have is "all or none" (even the skill, which will despawn the spirit, leading me to think that the skill is more of an "unsummon to get some energy back" skill that's fanicily named).

    Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.
    Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

    Ectoplasm isn't a soul, btw.

    Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

    The Elder Dragons are not intentionally doing anything. They have uncontrollable hunger and we gave him magic he should never had had access to the first place. Once he gained War he gained access to more food.

    If you still think this, you haven't been paying attention to the Elder Dragons' motivations in the plot.

    Kralkatorrik was more than just "uncontrollable hunger". He saw a future where mortals and dragons coexisted and he wasn't part of that, and he sought to ensure such a future didn't occur. That was his "intentionally doing something". To ensure this future didn't occur, he consumed magic to gain power, and assaulted mortals. His act of consuming magic to gain power resulted in this still not-fully-defined Torment growing inside him.

    Zhaitan is repeatedly stated to have been after creating an eternal nation to rule. Those it corrupted were doing the same things as a risen as they did before death, except for the royalty that were "demoted" to being his eyes across Orr, to demonstrate this. And Zhaitan went about it by consuming magic and forcing people to its reign.

    Jormag's even more obvious, with all the promises of power and actively letting go those who refuse it's offerings.

    The Elder Dragons are acting with intent, they each have individual goals which require gaining power to fulfill (thus leading to torment, should all be affected as Kralkatorrik was); the whole "mindlessness" was the typical Tyrian view of the Elder Dragons when there were far fewer survivors to talk about interactions with dragon minions (or any face-to-face time with the Elder Dragons themselves) and in all honesty, the mindlessness and force of nature concept faded away with Edge of Destiny novel (as it explicitly told us that Kralkatorrik was a thinking mind).

    Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive. If that doesn't make sense here is the best example I can give from another source of fiction http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-571

    An Elder Dragons prime directive:
    1. eat ambient magic.
    2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
    3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
    4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

    They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

    Well no. His form is separate from the domains within him. It disintegrated. And then Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed what we released.
    He was not eaten any more than Kormir ate Abaddon.

    Dragons eat magic. Magic is life. Eating someone's magic = eating that someone.

    I think you're being too nitpicky on exact terms.

    The act of Aurene eating Joko's body is fundamentally irrelevant to everything. That first bite where Joko's magic was unbound was the only bite that mattered in that situation.

    A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.
    Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

    It is not a risk to eat or corrupt another's minions if you are equals. All mortals contain dragon magic, but not divine magic so I don't see how that's relevant. And by all indication Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar, we majorily goofed and put chum in the water.

    Of course it's a risk, since you don't know the outcome if two near-equals fight.

    Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

    Dragon magic is defined throughout the story (specifically SE, CoE, and Thaumanova fractal) as the corrupting magic of Elder Dragons. No mortal contains that magic, because if they did they'd be dragon minions. But I wasn't saying that mortals contain "divine magic"; I was saying that mortals contain magic - magic which is not in the ley-lines.

    The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.
    Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

    Kralkatorrik did not personally seek out Balthazar because Elder Dragons do not personally seek out their targets. We don't know how many branded were sent after Balthazar as Balthazar made his way through the desert, so we cannot say that "Kralkatorrik did not seek out Balthazar". But Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before.

    The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

    For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

    Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. That the Spirits of the Wild and other nature spirits aren't native to Tyria? Everything we know would argue counter to that belief, especially if kodan myth holds some truth.

    Furthermore, the Spirits of the Wild hold some dominion over afterlives, and are capable of granting mortals the ability to enter the Mists at will. Just like Koda and the Six Gods. This is the closest we get to being divine without being explicitly called divine. On top of that, the norn consider the Spirits of the Wild to be on par to the "Spirits of Action" (aka Six Gods).

    Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.
    Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

    Soul reaping is taking energy from the extinguish of life (aka life force), not from souls.

    Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

    Aurene did, and who said that "magical stomachs" is even a thing?

    Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive.

    Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the uncontrollable urges have always been. Kralkatorrik showcases that the desire to consume magic comes from the Torment making promises of peace from constant, chronic pain.

    The Torment is not native, and thus neither is the drive to consume everything.

    An Elder Dragons prime directive:
    1. eat ambient magic.
    2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
    3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
    4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

    They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

    Except that's not the case. Their "prime directive" - their main goal - is unique for each of them. Consuming magic is a means to the end, not the end itself.

    A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.
    Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

    I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Because that makes no sense at all.

    Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

    And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

    The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.
    Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

    Divine magic from the Six Gods, sure, but whomever said that was the sole source for it? We have more gods than the Six Gods in the multiverse, and in Thyria. Furthermore, since "Tyrian magic" can be converted to "divine magic", it stands to reason it can be converted back just as "dragon magic" can be.

    "ley line/Tyrian magic", "dragon magic", and "divine magic" show to not be different types of magic, merely different converted forms it can take.

    The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

    For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

    Absolutely nothing says that "many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria". There are only two races confirmed to be non-Tyrian - Forgotten and humans. No more, no less. Which stands to suggest that "divine magic" is indeed native to Tyria since the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources".

    That said, nothing here relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons will use their minions to hunt down magic regardless of its form. And this includes divine magic.

    Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.

    The issue here is that you're assuming an all-connsuming Elder Dragon is the intended purpose but, as I stated, our encounter with Kralkatorrik's Torment tells us that this is not the case.

    In other words, to make it clear: There is no "native food source under the All". EitherThe All isn't intended to be a cycle of consumption, because consuming results in madness, or The All is a massively flawed system from the start.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. That the Spirits of the Wild and other nature spirits aren't native to Tyria? Everything we know would argue counter to that belief, especially if kodan myth holds some truth.

    Furthermore, the Spirits of the Wild hold some dominion over afterlives, and are capable of granting mortals the ability to enter the Mists at will. Just like Koda and the Six Gods. This is the closest we get to being divine without being explicitly called divine. On top of that, the norn consider the Spirits of the Wild to be on par to the "Spirits of Action" (aka Six Gods).

    Being close to something is not being something. And having an external origin is contrary to the idea of being a nature spirit.

    Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.
    Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

    Soul reaping is taking energy from the extinguish of life (aka life force), not from souls.

    Ancestral spirits have no life to offer. Whatever Ritualists gain from consuming them or otherwise is taken from their souls.

    Just because some souls are devoured whole does not mean all souls are destroyed any time someone slightly drains them.

    Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

    Aurene did, and who said that "magical stomachs" is even a thing?

    Rewatch the cinematic. If flew directly into her body. The effect of eating magic does not require the mouth.
    Humans will not swallow magic. But they will process and use it in ways that achieve the same goals.

    Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive.

    Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the uncontrollable urges have always been. Kralkatorrik showcases that the desire to consume magic comes from the Torment making promises of peace from constant, chronic pain.

    The Torment is not native, and thus neither is the drive to consume everything

    Kralkatorrik's torment has nothing to do with millennia of the entire pantheon eating until they slept.

    An Elder Dragons prime directive:
    1. eat ambient magic.
    2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
    3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
    4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

    They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

    Except that's not the case. Their "prime directive" - their main goal - is unique for each of them. Consuming magic is a means to the end, not the end itself.

    What would their main goal be beyond balancing magic?

    A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.
    Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

    I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Because that makes no sense at all.

    Balthazar =/= Bathazar's magic any more than a cow = gelatin. Eating the latter is not the same as eating the former.
    Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. He ate a part of him.

    Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

    And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

    Because nothing about them being equal should stop them from occasionally eating each other's minions. Especially not Kralkatorrik as he was later in life.

    The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.
    Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

    Divine magic from the Six Gods, sure, but whomever said that was the sole source for it? We have more gods than the Six Gods in the multiverse, and in Thyria. Furthermore, since "Tyrian magic" can be converted to "divine magic", it stands to reason it can be converted back just as "dragon magic" can be.

    That is a non-sequitur. Elder Dragons are not gods. The regenerative breaks in a hybrid car can convert electrical into kinetic energy and back. Humans can do that with electrical and chemical energy. It does not stand to reason a hybrid car can perform the same processes as humans.

    "ley line/Tyrian magic", "dragon magic", and "divine magic" show to not be different types of magic, merely different converted forms it can take.

    Cane toads and crucifix toads are different types of frogs. Chernobyl and sunlight are different forms of radiation. It has no bearing on whether the ecosystem supports its introduction.

    The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

    For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

    Absolutely nothing says that "many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria". There are only two races confirmed to be non-Tyrian - Forgotten and humans. No more, no less. Which stands to suggest that "divine magic" is indeed native to Tyria since the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources"

    Our bestiary is so limited that one+ out of five allied ancient races. Or two+ is far too many.

    That said, nothing here relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons will use their minions to hunt down magic regardless of its form. And this includes divine magic.

    And?
    As you said: "...Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before."

    Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.

    The issue here is that you're assuming an all-connsuming Elder Dragon is the intended purpose but, as I stated, our encounter with Kralkatorrik's Torment tells us that this is not the case.

    In other words, to make it clear: There is no "native food source under the All". EitherThe All isn't intended to be a cycle of consumption, because consuming results in madness, or The All is a massively flawed system from the start.

    Consuming has resulted in madness for one out of six after how many years of successfully preventing the planet from falling into the void or whatever.
    During which, Kralkatorrik, even as a lunatic, kept the balance.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. That the Spirits of the Wild and other nature spirits aren't native to Tyria? Everything we know would argue counter to that belief, especially if kodan myth holds some truth.

    Furthermore, the Spirits of the Wild hold some dominion over afterlives, and are capable of granting mortals the ability to enter the Mists at will. Just like Koda and the Six Gods. This is the closest we get to being divine without being explicitly called divine. On top of that, the norn consider the Spirits of the Wild to be on par to the "Spirits of Action" (aka Six Gods).

    Being close to something is not being something. And having an external origin is contrary to the idea of being a nature spirit.

    Okay? Nothing suggests that the Spirits of the Wild are foreign or have an "external origin". So I don't get what you're trying to argue.

    Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.
    Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

    Soul reaping is taking energy from the extinguish of life (aka life force), not from souls.

    Ancestral spirits have no life to offer. Whatever Ritualists gain from consuming them or otherwise is taken from their souls.

    Just because some souls are devoured whole does not mean all souls are destroyed any time someone slightly drains them.

    Right... but that's not soul reaping like you were pointing out, and your second sentence is exactly what I said - the skill is likely just draining them, not consuming them despite the name.

    Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

    Aurene did, and who said that "magical stomachs" is even a thing?

    Rewatch the cinematic. If flew directly into her body. The effect of eating magic does not require the mouth.
    Humans will not swallow magic. But they will process and use it in ways that achieve the same goals.

    I don't even get why you're bringing this all up. If Elder Dragons don't use their mouths to absorb magic, so what. You say "mortals don't have magical stomachs" well, by your very argument as well of the dragons not eating magic via mouths, then neither do dragons.

    Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive.

    Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the uncontrollable urges have always been. Kralkatorrik showcases that the desire to consume magic comes from the Torment making promises of peace from constant, chronic pain.

    The Torment is not native, and thus neither is the drive to consume everything

    Kralkatorrik's torment has nothing to do with millennia of the entire pantheon eating until they slept.

    It has everything to do with it. It was literally born from and actively perpetrated the continuation of the millennias of eating too much magic until there was nearly none left causing hibernation.

    An Elder Dragons prime directive:
    1. eat ambient magic.
    2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
    3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
    4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

    They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

    Except that's not the case. Their "prime directive" - their main goal - is unique for each of them. Consuming magic is a means to the end, not the end itself.

    What would their main goal be beyond balancing magic?

    Already stated. Each one has a different goal - for Kralkatorrik, his goal was preventing that vision he saw from coming to pass. He acted to prevent this by consuming magic.

    The Elder Dragons don't give a kitten about balancing magic. They just happen to do so because there were too many overly greedy Elder Dragons active at the same time that they'd consume until they ran out and would be forced into hibernation to let magic levels rise again. Their act of balancing magic from one extreme to the other was coincidental, not intentional nor a goal.

    Which was the entire reason the Forgotten and Glint came up with the plan to replace the Elder Dragons with beings who's goals are to balance magic.

    A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.
    Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

    I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Because that makes no sense at all.

    Balthazar =/= Bathazar's magic any more than a cow = gelatin. Eating the latter is not the same as eating the former.
    Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. He ate a part of him.

    This is nitpicking beyond belief. Eating "a part of Balthazar" is still "eating Balthazar". It's just not "eating all of Balthazar". If your not a native English speaker that's understandable, but you're nitpicking exact meanings where context exempts such.

    Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

    And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

    Because nothing about them being equal should stop them from occasionally eating each other's minions. Especially not Kralkatorrik as he was later in life.

    Except for, you know, distance.

    The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.
    Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

    Divine magic from the Six Gods, sure, but whomever said that was the sole source for it? We have more gods than the Six Gods in the multiverse, and in Thyria. Furthermore, since "Tyrian magic" can be converted to "divine magic", it stands to reason it can be converted back just as "dragon magic" can be.

    That is a non-sequitur. Elder Dragons are not gods. The regenerative breaks in a hybrid car can convert electrical into kinetic energy and back. Humans can do that with electrical and chemical energy. It does not stand to reason a hybrid car can perform the same processes as humans.

    Straman argument there. Especially given there are an ever increasing number of similarities between the two pantheons. Besides, if divine magic couldn't be converted back, then by rights, Kralkatorrik and Aurene couldn't use it, since they can only use dragon magic. The process of volatile magic literally was "Tyrian magic -> divine magic -> dragon magic".

    "ley line/Tyrian magic", "dragon magic", and "divine magic" show to not be different types of magic, merely different converted forms it can take.

    Cane toads and crucifix toads are different types of frogs. Chernobyl and sunlight are different forms of radiation. It has no bearing on whether the ecosystem supports its introduction.

    You missed the point then. My point has been that nothing outright tells us that divine magic is foreign.

    You keep on presuming that it is, just as you presume the Elder Dragons are intentionally balancing magic. These are false or unproven presumptions.

    The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

    For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

    Absolutely nothing says that "many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria". There are only two races confirmed to be non-Tyrian - Forgotten and humans. No more, no less. Which stands to suggest that "divine magic" is indeed native to Tyria since the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources"

    Our bestiary is so limited that one+ out of five allied ancient races. Or two+ is far too many.

    More like 1 out of 11.

    Forgotten.

    Dwarf. Jotun. Mursaat. Seer. Kodan. Tengu. Charr. Giganticus Lupicus. Karka. Djinn.

    And that's assuming that all other races somehow came into existence within the past ~3,000 years. Which is highly unlikely.

    That said, nothing here relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons will use their minions to hunt down magic regardless of its form. And this includes divine magic.

    And?
    As you said: "...Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before."

    And I'm still saying that. The Elder Dragons will seek out magic, regardless of the type of magic. Hence why Kralkatorrik went into the Mists.

    Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.

    The issue here is that you're assuming an all-connsuming Elder Dragon is the intended purpose but, as I stated, our encounter with Kralkatorrik's Torment tells us that this is not the case.

    In other words, to make it clear: There is no "native food source under the All". EitherThe All isn't intended to be a cycle of consumption, because consuming results in madness, or The All is a massively flawed system from the start.

    Consuming has resulted in madness for one out of six after how many years of successfully preventing the planet from falling into the void or whatever.
    During which, Kralkatorrik, even as a lunatic, kept the balance.

    What you said neither adds nor subtracts to what I was saying.

    The fact that the Elder Dragons, against all odds, ended up not yet destroying the planet has no bearing on the fact that they're actively trying to do so, nor does it have any bearing on whether or not that was the intended design of The All (be it made by intelligent design or happenstance). Also the devs have heavily suggested during Guild Chat for War Eternal that all the Elder Dragons suffer from the same or similar torment as Kralkatorrik in their own ways, and that Aurene may even fall victim to it in the future.

    All of this suggests, as I said, that the current state as of before GW2 was not the "original design" of The All and Elder Dragons. That at some point in the past, things got kitten up, and despite all odds, the world didn't die yet.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    There is no doubt nature spirits exceed ancestral spirits in power. But "high spirits" are not divine. Owl's death, while remarkable in its aftermath, does mean this natural entity is actually an unnatural interloper.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. That the Spirits of the Wild and other nature spirits aren't native to Tyria? Everything we know would argue counter to that belief, especially if kodan myth holds some truth.

    Furthermore, the Spirits of the Wild hold some dominion over afterlives, and are capable of granting mortals the ability to enter the Mists at will. Just like Koda and the Six Gods. This is the closest we get to being divine without being explicitly called divine. On top of that, the norn consider the Spirits of the Wild to be on par to the "Spirits of Action" (aka Six Gods).

    Being close to something is not being something. And having an external origin is contrary to the idea of being a nature spirit.

    Okay? Nothing suggests that the Spirits of the Wild are foreign or have an "external origin". So I don't get what you're trying to argue.

    Except your entire argument is about comparing them to extraterrestrials.

    Of course it's possible. It's the basis for soul reaping. It doesn't have to kill any more than blood magic completely exsanguinates.
    Consume soul in particular takes a small chunk of health. They are not swallowing the entire spirit.

    Soul reaping is taking energy from the extinguish of life (aka life force), not from souls.

    Ancestral spirits have no life to offer. Whatever Ritualists gain from consuming them or otherwise is taken from their souls.

    Just because some souls are devoured whole does not mean all souls are destroyed any time someone slightly drains them.

    Right... but that's not soul reaping like you were pointing out, and your second sentence is exactly what I said - the skill is likely just draining them, not consuming them despite the name.

    Eating ghostly residue is still disgusting. And mortals don't have magical stomachs. Clearly there is more to taking in magic than mastication. For instance following the death of Balthazar, Kralkatorrik used his mouth for absorption, Aurene did not.

    Aurene did, and who said that "magical stomachs" is even a thing?

    Rewatch the cinematic. If flew directly into her body. The effect of eating magic does not require the mouth.
    Humans will not swallow magic. But they will process and use it in ways that achieve the same goals.

    I don't even get why you're bringing this all up. If Elder Dragons don't use their mouths to absorb magic, so what. You say "mortals don't have magical stomachs" well, by your very argument as well of the dragons not eating magic via mouths, then neither do dragons.

    They probably don't. We've been inside one and all we found was the heart. But that's another matter that only relates you adding processes where none necessarily exist.

    Balthazar was not eaten. Neither was his magic. At best you could say Kralkatorrik appeared to drink or breathe in the power that was sealed in the late demigod. But as Aurene shows that is not a necessity of the process.

    Any Ritualist on the plane could have consumed power from Owl. Not enough to deplete it beyond existence. But enough to gain health or some temporary benefit.
    Would they be digesting parts of owl inside themselves? No. Is that a requirement for destroying a power source. Also no.

    Complex goals and uncontrollable urges are not mutually exclusive.

    Of course not, but that doesn't mean that the uncontrollable urges have always been. Kralkatorrik showcases that the desire to consume magic comes from the Torment making promises of peace from constant, chronic pain.

    The Torment is not native, and thus neither is the drive to consume everything

    Kralkatorrik's torment has nothing to do with millennia of the entire pantheon eating until they slept.

    It has everything to do with it. It was literally born from and actively perpetrated the continuation of the millennias of eating too much magic until there was nearly none left causing hibernation.

    He is one member of an entire pantheon. Unless you are saying they all have torments it has nothing to do with it.

    An Elder Dragons prime directive:
    1. eat ambient magic.
    2. eat unsealed magic inside creatures/objects
    3. Use your own spheres to achieve 1 and 2
    4. Sleep when full or when 1-3 are not possible.

    They can employ whatever they want to achieve these goals. And people like the Seers can exploit them.

    Except that's not the case. Their "prime directive" - their main goal - is unique for each of them. Consuming magic is a means to the end, not the end itself.

    What would their main goal be beyond balancing magic?

    Already stated. Each one has a different goal - for Kralkatorrik, his goal was preventing that vision he saw from coming to pass. He acted to prevent this by consuming magic.

    The Elder Dragons don't give a kitten about balancing magic. They just happen to do so because there were too many overly greedy Elder Dragons active at the same time that they'd consume until they ran out and would be forced into hibernation to let magic levels rise again. Their act of balancing magic from one extreme to the other was coincidental, not intentional nor a goal.

    Which was the entire reason the Forgotten and Glint came up with the plan to replace the Elder Dragons with beings who's goals are to balance magic.

    And what do you base it being a coincidence on?

    A god's body is made of magic that does not belong to their domains or only one would have a form.
    Kralkatorrik did not bite into this outer layer for the juicy war/fire insides. We took a walking-talking quasi-bloodstone, and made an omelette.

    I don't think you even know what you're trying to argue anymore. Because that makes no sense at all.

    Balthazar =/= Bathazar's magic any more than a cow = gelatin. Eating the latter is not the same as eating the former.
    Kralkatorrik did not eat Balthazar. He ate a part of him.

    This is nitpicking beyond belief. Eating "a part of Balthazar" is still "eating Balthazar". It's just not "eating all of Balthazar". If your not a native English speaker that's understandable, but you're nitpicking exact meanings where context exempts such.

    Did Aurene eat Balthazar?
    Did Balthazar eat a bloodstone?
    Did Aurene eat Joko?

    Only one of those is yes. And that behavior means something entirely different from the context in which the others were absorbed. And from an Elder Dragons eating/drinking/breathing/whatever unbound magic that used to be sealed in an entity. We don't call people who eat their fingernails cannibals. It is disingenuous to compare them. Especially when discussing goals.

    Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

    And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

    Because nothing about them being equal should stop them from occasionally eating each other's minions. Especially not Kralkatorrik as he was later in life.

    Except for, you know, distance.

    You have already established they send out minions to gather magic. One minion attacks another minion and steals its magic.

    The magic in mortals and in dragons eventually becomes ley magic through the dragonrise.
    Divine magic is not supposed to be part of that process.

    Divine magic from the Six Gods, sure, but whomever said that was the sole source for it? We have more gods than the Six Gods in the multiverse, and in Thyria. Furthermore, since "Tyrian magic" can be converted to "divine magic", it stands to reason it can be converted back just as "dragon magic" can be.

    That is a non-sequitur. Elder Dragons are not gods. The regenerative breaks in a hybrid car can convert electrical into kinetic energy and back. Humans can do that with electrical and chemical energy. It does not stand to reason a hybrid car can perform the same processes as humans.

    Straman argument there. Especially given there are an ever increasing number of similarities between the two pantheons. Besides, if divine magic couldn't be converted back, then by rights, Kralkatorrik and Aurene couldn't use it, since they can only use dragon magic. The process of volatile magic literally was "Tyrian magic -> divine magic -> dragon magic".

    Do I really need to do the birds and bats example? And what lore says they can only use dragon magic? The only restriction we have seen is they can't use dragon magic from another's sphere. And we have no idea how long War/Fire would have lasted.

    The fact there is volatile magic at all, is a symptom of the problem.

    "ley line/Tyrian magic", "dragon magic", and "divine magic" show to not be different types of magic, merely different converted forms it can take.

    Cane toads and crucifix toads are different types of frogs. Chernobyl and sunlight are different forms of radiation. It has no bearing on whether the ecosystem supports its introduction.

    You missed the point then. My point has been that nothing outright tells us that divine magic is foreign.

    And nothing outright tells us it isn't. We have to rely on its usage.

    You keep on presuming that it is, just as you presume the Elder Dragons are intentionally balancing magic. These are false or unproven presumptions.'

    They balance magic by existing. Anything the fulfills that goal fulfills the other. Whether they are doing it to the best of their ability, or want to be part of the All is another matter entirely.

    The gods and many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria. They are invasive species screwing with an ecosystem that was not designed to support them. The only reason modern civilization exists is we hid the food in bloodstones and with divine magic.

    For us to spill the chum from a bloodstone mixed with divine magic was phenomenally stupid. In the same way they tell you to shoot animals who have eaten humans because they learned of our flesh. We mutated Kralkatorrik's palate. We made mists magic ambient and accessible.

    Absolutely nothing says that "many of the ancient races do not belong on Tyria". There are only two races confirmed to be non-Tyrian - Forgotten and humans. No more, no less. Which stands to suggest that "divine magic" is indeed native to Tyria since the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources"

    Our bestiary is so limited that one+ out of five allied ancient races. Or two+ is far too many.

    More like 1 out of 11.

    Forgotten.

    Dwarf. Jotun. Mursaat. Seer. Kodan. Tengu. Charr. Giganticus Lupicus. Karka. Djinn.

    And that's assuming that all other races somehow came into existence within the past ~3,000 years. Which is highly unlikely.

    That said, nothing here relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons will use their minions to hunt down magic regardless of its form. And this includes divine magic.

    And?
    As you said: "...Kralkatorrik did seek out those with Abaddon's magic after consuming Balthazar's magic. But not before."

    And I'm still saying that. The Elder Dragons will seek out magic, regardless of the type of magic. Hence why Kralkatorrik went into the Mists.

    After. So why didn't he seek out the Djinn before.

    Owl and Djinn are a native food source under the All. The cosmology did not expect millions of years in the future mortals would do the unthinkable of killing a demigod.

    The issue here is that you're assuming an all-connsuming Elder Dragon is the intended purpose but, as I stated, our encounter with Kralkatorrik's Torment tells us that this is not the case.

    In other words, to make it clear: There is no "native food source under the All". EitherThe All isn't intended to be a cycle of consumption, because consuming results in madness, or The All is a massively flawed system from the start.

    Consuming has resulted in madness for one out of six after how many years of successfully preventing the planet from falling into the void or whatever.
    During which, Kralkatorrik, even as a lunatic, kept the balance.

    What you said neither adds nor subtracts to what I was saying.

    The fact that the Elder Dragons, against all odds, ended up not yet destroying the planet has no bearing on the fact that they're actively trying to do so, nor does it have any bearing on whether or not that was the intended design of The All (be it made by intelligent design or happenstance). Also the devs have heavily suggested during Guild Chat for War Eternal that all the Elder Dragons suffer from the same or similar torment as Kralkatorrik in their own ways, and that Aurene may even fall victim to it in the future.

    All of this suggests, as I said, that the current state as of before GW2 was not the "original design" of The All and Elder Dragons. That at some point in the past, things got kitten up, and despite all odds, the world didn't die yet.

    If the point of the All is to prevent Tyria from falling into the void/blowing up/whatever from the extremes of magic. The ED, intentionally or not, have been doing fine until we and the gods messed it up.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
    2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
    3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
    4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use War, the only other non-domain magic usage from dragons that eat magic from all domains.

    He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster. At what point is his repeated claims of divinity still a lie?

    Hi Daniel. I'm back from the naughty corner. I agree with you. Palawa isn't a complete liar. His memory of past lives, coupled with his mastery of wurms and his residence in the Crystal Desert is an allusion to the Kwisatz Haderach of Frank Herbert's Dune series. Identifying the inspiration for this aspect of Joko's character isn't enough to validate his outrageous claims. However, the Orrian History Scrolls, combined with many other indirect forms of evidence from GW1, indicate that Abaddon's domain (water) included mankind's memory of history.

    Abaddon's fall has left most of mankind - and many races of Tyria - confused about their past. I maintain that the Margonites carried a gene that allowed them to remember the past in ways that other species of human could not. I believe that Palawa carries either this gene, or a similar gene.

    As to when Palawa acquired his power: I believe that Palawa participated in the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven, when the magic of the Six gods was combined in new terrifying ways. This battle Awakened Palawa.

    In other words, I think that Palawa Joko is an aspect of Abaddon. My 2 cents :+1:

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Okay? Nothing suggests that the Spirits of the Wild are foreign or have an "external origin". So I don't get what you're trying to argue.

    Except your entire argument is about comparing them to extraterrestrials.

    Didn't know the Elder Dragons were extraterrestrials.

    To be less sarcastic, I compared them to anything that gave the Elder Dragons new powers when consuming the magic of another entity - e.g., the Elder Dragons, Balthazar, and Joko. All of which use native magic, in technicality (or as far as we know for Joko's case).

    Balthazar was not eaten. Neither was his magic. At best you could say Kralkatorrik appeared to drink or breathe in the power that was sealed in the late demigod. But as Aurene shows that is not a necessity of the process.

    You're being too strict and technical on terminology. Regardless of whether or not they eat magic through their mouths, "eating magic" is the terminology Tyrians and the developers use to denote the Elder Dragons consuming magic, and Balthazar's magic was undeniably consumed by Kralkatorrik and Aurene.

    The technicalities of how dragons consume magic is irrelevant to the fact that they consume magic.

    And since Balthazar was a literal walking sack of magic, consuming his magic = consuming him. Remember: Balthazar was not a living being:

    Scanner: No—life—detected. Only—magic—energy—present.

    The Six Gods are not living beings. They are their magic, and their magic is them. This is why Abaddon could survive the destruction of his body before the Exodus, and was able to reform one out of the Realm of Torment itself. This is why Dhuum is literally just enchanted armor in GW2. This is why Balthazar's body breaks up upon defeat. This is why Kormir is said to have died to become a god.

    Any Ritualist on the plane could have consumed power from Owl. Not enough to deplete it beyond existence. But enough to gain health or some temporary benefit.
    Would they be digesting parts of owl inside themselves? No. Is that a requirement for destroying a power source. Also no.

    Siphoning power from != consuming the spirit

    It has everything to do with it. It was literally born from and actively perpetrated the continuation of the millennias of eating too much magic until there was nearly none left causing hibernation.

    He is one member of an entire pantheon. Unless you are saying they all have torments it has nothing to do with it.

    I explicitly stated that given what we know, if it highly likely that is the case. The devs even outright state that it's likely the case.

    Already stated. Each one has a different goal - for Kralkatorrik, his goal was preventing that vision he saw from coming to pass. He acted to prevent this by consuming magic.

    The Elder Dragons don't give a kitten about balancing magic. They just happen to do so because there were too many overly greedy Elder Dragons active at the same time that they'd consume until they ran out and would be forced into hibernation to let magic levels rise again. Their act of balancing magic from one extreme to the other was coincidental, not intentional nor a goal.

    Which was the entire reason the Forgotten and Glint came up with the plan to replace the Elder Dragons with beings who's goals are to balance magic.

    And what do you base it being a coincidence on?

    As I said, the fact that the Elder Dragons don't give a kitten about balancing magic. Their goals are not to balance magic, they each have their own goals. "Balancing magic" from one extreme to the other is an unintended side-effect of how they're going about obtaining their goals, and the number of them.

    Kralkatorrik and Season 4 is proof of this. If Kralkatorrik's goal was to balance magic, he would never have begun invading the Mists, since the Mists is separate from The All (as Taimi said, if Kralkatorrik's magic was released in the Mists, Tyria was done for, which is why we had to lure him to Dragonfall to kill and replace him - because even just replacing him in the Mists breaks The All). If Kralkatorrik's goal and intention was to balance magic, then he wouldn't outright tell us that his goal was:

    Kralkatorrik: It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.

    Kralkatorrik never cared about balance of magic - at least not in the scope of the known history of Thyria. And he tells us this himself.

    That's what I base it on being a coincidence. The fact we're told it is.

    This is nitpicking beyond belief. Eating "a part of Balthazar" is still "eating Balthazar". It's just not "eating all of Balthazar". If your not a native English speaker that's understandable, but you're nitpicking exact meanings where context exempts such.

    Did Aurene eat Balthazar?
    Did Balthazar eat a bloodstone?
    Did Aurene eat Joko?

    Only one of those is yes. And that behavior means something entirely different from the context in which the others were absorbed. And from an Elder Dragons eating/drinking/breathing/whatever unbound magic that used to be sealed in an entity. We don't call people who eat their fingernails cannibals. It is disingenuous to compare them. Especially when discussing goals.

    If you crack open an egg and eat the yoke, are you eating the egg?

    Yes.

    If you crack open a bloodstone, and consume the magic inside, are you eating the bloodstone?

    Yes.

    If you crack open a demigod, and consume the magic inside, are you eating the demigod?

    Yes.

    Mutually assured destruction has historically failed to create world peace.

    And this relates to the fact that the Elder Dragons don't attack each other... how? Again, it's sounding like you're making responses without remembering what the discussion was about.

    Because nothing about them being equal should stop them from occasionally eating each other's minions. Especially not Kralkatorrik as he was later in life.

    Except for, you know, distance.

    You have already established they send out minions to gather magic. One minion attacks another minion and steals its magic.

    And then you antagonize what you perceive to be one of the five creatures in the world capable of ending your existence.

    The Elder Dragons aren't stupid, and there's plenty of magic to go around without antagonizing their peers. They likely also know the importance they have to The All and would avoid destroying the world (unless their goal was exactly that, but even Kralkatorrik's goal under his torment was ultimately self-preservation).

    Straman argument there. Especially given there are an ever increasing number of similarities between the two pantheons. Besides, if divine magic couldn't be converted back, then by rights, Kralkatorrik and Aurene couldn't use it, since they can only use dragon magic. The process of volatile magic literally was "Tyrian magic -> divine magic -> dragon magic".

    Do I really need to do the birds and bats example? And what lore says they can only use dragon magic? The only restriction we have seen is they can't use dragon magic from another's sphere. And we have no idea how long War/Fire would have lasted.

    The fact there is volatile magic at all, is a symptom of the problem.

    The very definition of dragon magic is "magic dragons use". Just replay Sorrow's Embrace and Crucible of Eternity story modes, and it should be clear. They consume magic, they convert magic into draconic energy, then they use explicitly that converted magic.

    It wasn't until Taimi came along and attempted to redefine it in Season 3 that it ever changed perceptions throughout the PS or S1.

    You missed the point then. My point has been that nothing outright tells us that divine magic is foreign.

    And nothing outright tells us it isn't. We have to rely on its usage.

    Yes, it's usage by a native race to contain native magic.

    We have usage telling us that some divine magic is native. Unless you're assuming the Seers and their "divine resources" were also foreign, in which case you have zero support for the claim, and therefore you're not "relying on its usage".

    After. So why didn't he seek out the Djinn before.

    Who said he didn't? He literally flew over their home and corrupted a swath of it.

    That sounds like seeking out the djinn to corrupt them. And this was done before PoF's events.

    If the point of the All is to prevent Tyria from falling into the void/blowing up/whatever from the extremes of magic. The ED, intentionally or not, have been doing fine until we and the gods messed it up.

    "Doing fine" by coincidence != the point of the All though.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2019

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    As to when Palawa acquired his power: I believe that Palawa participated in the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven, when the magic of the Six gods was combined in new terrifying ways. This battle Awakened Palawa.

    Joko was a living being in the late 700s/early 800s, same as Mad King Thorn. He isn't 1,300 years old, merely 500 by the time of GW2.

    Source: Palawa Ignacious Joko's own personal diary from his youth

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    especially when we remember that Khilbron also invoked Abaddon's forbidden scrolls to cause the Cataclysm and returned as a lich sometime later (and how Fendi Nin was cursed by King Zoran's vizier who could've had access to the forbidden scrolls in Arah similar to Khilbron).

    It should be noted that the Lost Scrolls are not stated to be Abaddon's. They were kept away by the gods, and predated the Exodus, but that's all we have on their origins.

    the Hunter, a Margonite granted lich-like powers by Khilbron and trapped in the Mists,

    The Hunter wasn't a Margonite, but a Shiro'ken - a construct created by Shiro Tagachi and empowered by a trapped soul. Which makes the lichdom magic on it even more curious, because it wasn't even a flesh body like normal liches, but an artificial body created of metal and, well, some bone.

    Whoops; I did intend to write Shiro'ken, but apparently my mind was still dwelling on the mysteries of the Margonites so I ended up using one over the other.

    Given how souls are tied to magic, though, one wonders how easy it would be to create artificial souls, plant such in constructs, use whatever causes someone to become a lich, and start mass producing liches if given enough time and knowledge. It could lead to a fascinating plot.

    The Lost Scrolls' mystery could indicate that if in one scenario the knowledge of lich magic didn't come from Abaddon given the ambiguity, he might have discovered this knowledge from somewhere else--whether from some corner in Tyria or somewhere else in the Mists--before taking that knowledge to his safekeeping and study. It's a shame that we haven't had that many updates on the Priory's findings in Arah beyond some suggestions here and there. Revisiting Arah and entering the Great Margonite Temple in the Sulfurous Wastes might provide us with some juicy answers if we're lucky and give the writers a nice plot hook should they ever wish to explore this corner of lore. :)

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