BadMed.3846 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.Yep but the leaderboard class representation give a good idea of class efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.You: Mesmer is exploited by players in ranked. Just look at Shorts and how well he does!Me: The best Shorts ever did in ranked was when he very publicly quit mesmer to stream and make videos about Spellbreaker out of frustration regarding mesmer nerfs with almost no prior experience on Spellbreaker.You: Well, not quite. I just mentioned shorts as I randomly saw him streaming. Was a good example that mirage is still very well playable. And that too power. But you get stuck on his history and opinions. You're making unnecessary assumptions. I don't really follow him and nor do I intend to follow and mirage players.new players have this odd misconceptions of what bad is.i could play power mirage, never EVER attack my oponents, just run around decaping, and get 35% winrate in the rank im currently in.I will give you league of legends as an example, champions with 47-48% winrate are considered trash, and the ones with 52+ are S tier or godlike.If you nerf something by 50% it becomes trash, if i can manage 52% winrate with cmirage, after nerfing every single ability by 50%, making cmirage utter garbage, I would still propably have about 45-48% winrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.You: Mesmer is exploited by players in ranked. Just look at Shorts and how well he does!Me: The best Shorts ever did in ranked was when he very publicly quit mesmer to stream and make videos about Spellbreaker out of frustration regarding mesmer nerfs with almost no prior experience on Spellbreaker.You: Well, not quite. I just mentioned shorts as I randomly saw him streaming. Was a good example that mirage is still very well playable. And that too power. But you get stuck on his history and opinions. You're making unnecessary assumptions. I don't really follow him and nor do I intend to follow and mirage players.new players have this odd misconceptions of what bad is.i could play power mirage, never EVER attack my oponents, just run around decaping, and get 35% winrate in the rank im currently in.I will give you league of legends as an example, champions with 47-48% winrate are considered trash, and the ones with 52+ are S tier or godlike.If you nerf something by 50% it becomes trash, if i can manage 52% winrate with cmirage, after nerfing every single ability by 50%, making cmirage utter garbage, I would still propably have about 45-48% winrate.This is not league of legends. Where a bot can maintain 50% win loss ratio, the class is spammable and broken. Same was the case with scourge a long while back where you could button mash to victory. Condi mirage is broken and it needs nerfs. That's all I'm saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.You: Mesmer is exploited by players in ranked. Just look at Shorts and how well he does!Me: The best Shorts ever did in ranked was when he very publicly quit mesmer to stream and make videos about Spellbreaker out of frustration regarding mesmer nerfs with almost no prior experience on Spellbreaker.You: Well, not quite. I just mentioned shorts as I randomly saw him streaming. Was a good example that mirage is still very well playable. And that too power. But you get stuck on his history and opinions. You're making unnecessary assumptions. I don't really follow him and nor do I intend to follow and mirage players.new players have this odd misconceptions of what bad is.i could play power mirage, never EVER attack my oponents, just run around decaping, and get 35% winrate in the rank im currently in.I will give you league of legends as an example, champions with 47-48% winrate are considered trash, and the ones with 52+ are S tier or godlike.If you nerf something by 50% it becomes trash, if i can manage 52% winrate with cmirage, after nerfing every single ability by 50%, making cmirage utter garbage, I would still propably have about 45-48% winrate.This is not league of legends. Where a bot can maintain 50% win loss ratio, the class is spammable and broken. Same was the case with scourge a long while back where you could button mash to victory. Condi mirage is broken and it needs nerfs. That's all I'm saying. The literal point of glicko as a matchmaking system is to place everyone at the rating where they will maintain a 50% win loss ratio. Eventually any bot is going to land at a 50% win ratio if it plays enough games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 @BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.You: Mesmer is exploited by players in ranked. Just look at Shorts and how well he does!Me: The best Shorts ever did in ranked was when he very publicly quit mesmer to stream and make videos about Spellbreaker out of frustration regarding mesmer nerfs with almost no prior experience on Spellbreaker.You: Well, not quite. I just mentioned shorts as I randomly saw him streaming. Was a good example that mirage is still very well playable. And that too power. But you get stuck on his history and opinions. You're making unnecessary assumptions. I don't really follow him and nor do I intend to follow and mirage players.new players have this odd misconceptions of what bad is.i could play power mirage, never EVER attack my oponents, just run around decaping, and get 35% winrate in the rank im currently in.I will give you league of legends as an example, champions with 47-48% winrate are considered trash, and the ones with 52+ are S tier or godlike.If you nerf something by 50% it becomes trash, if i can manage 52% winrate with cmirage, after nerfing every single ability by 50%, making cmirage utter garbage, I would still propably have about 45-48% winrate.This is not league of legends. Where a bot can maintain 50% win loss ratio, the class is spammable and broken. Same was the case with scourge a long while back where you could button mash to victory. Condi mirage is broken and it needs nerfs. That's all I'm saying. unless you are one of the worst or one of the best people in the game you will eventually reach a place where you have 50% winrate, good, bad,bot, 1 hand,blind, doesnt matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 @Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.You: Mesmer is exploited by players in ranked. Just look at Shorts and how well he does!Me: The best Shorts ever did in ranked was when he very publicly quit mesmer to stream and make videos about Spellbreaker out of frustration regarding mesmer nerfs with almost no prior experience on Spellbreaker.You: Well, not quite. I just mentioned shorts as I randomly saw him streaming. Was a good example that mirage is still very well playable. And that too power. But you get stuck on his history and opinions. You're making unnecessary assumptions. I don't really follow him and nor do I intend to follow and mirage players.In short: your example blew up in your face. You chose said example because of lack of expertise and knowledge which now required you to backpedal since the example given actually worked against the point you were trying to make. Finally your own lack of performance in the game mode prohibits you from showing own data but rather relying on other players to prove your point. Players who on the top end are harder and harder to come by since the class is not as represented as it should be if it was so overpowered.Got it.TL;DR:Player gives bad example, lack of personal skill in the game mode prevents own proof of arguments, still knows what is best for the game and class balance. In short, you're another one making bad assumptions. Read the post again, might help. My expertise is not dependent on watching a streamer on twitch.It's not that hard to understand that someone questioned existence of a good Mesmer and I dropped that name it as I saw his once on twitch.TL;DRYou're another random stopping by to shoot down a post that supports Mesmer nerfs. Yet another bad player that needs Condi mirage crutches!doesnt it make you scratch your head, that mesmer main. drops his class to play a class with compleatly different playstyle and starts winning more?for all your whining im kinda jelly, you dont get to be kitten over by holo, that resustains to full hp 3 times during a duel, or spb that eats your entire combo and loses 60% hp, only to spam dodges like monkey only to be healed passively due to overtuned traits/signet.You dont see the joy of monkeys using condi thief to their full potential, the onse that actually dodge skills and not spam it randomly, the onse that will literarly dodge everything you throw at them that is not cast instantly, and the only counterplay is to guess their 10k poison instacast ability.You dont get to play capricorn against 3 firebrands that just rubeachother on the node. ( god bless scourge nerf )kitten game would be so fun and easy if our biggest worry was condi mirage.Well finally there's a reasonable point to talk about. Yes, I see all that and I have no issues with nerfs to those. I support them too! Condi thief is another effortless spec and need to go. Others need tuning down too. Condi Mirage is worst of all still; though but Mesmers want to pretend that it's week and already nerfed to ground.The difference is that most good thief mains realise the issue with Condi thief and dislike it. Mesmers are the opposite. They really want access to broken builds and that's what they've been relying on for years. I'm not making statistical claims here, just sharing my observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted November 12, 2019 Share Posted November 12, 2019 @BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.You: Mesmer is exploited by players in ranked. Just look at Shorts and how well he does!Me: The best Shorts ever did in ranked was when he very publicly quit mesmer to stream and make videos about Spellbreaker out of frustration regarding mesmer nerfs with almost no prior experience on Spellbreaker.You: Well, not quite. I just mentioned shorts as I randomly saw him streaming. Was a good example that mirage is still very well playable. And that too power. But you get stuck on his history and opinions. You're making unnecessary assumptions. I don't really follow him and nor do I intend to follow and mirage players.In short: your example blew up in your face. You chose said example because of lack of expertise and knowledge which now required you to backpedal since the example given actually worked against the point you were trying to make. Finally your own lack of performance in the game mode prohibits you from showing own data but rather relying on other players to prove your point. Players who on the top end are harder and harder to come by since the class is not as represented as it should be if it was so overpowered.Got it.TL;DR:Player gives bad example, lack of personal skill in the game mode prevents own proof of arguments, still knows what is best for the game and class balance. In short, you're another one making bad assumptions. Read the post again, might help. My expertise is not dependent on watching a streamer on twitch.It's not that hard to understand that someone questioned existence of a good Mesmer and I dropped that name it as I saw his once on twitch.TL;DRYou're another random stopping by to shoot down a post that supports Mesmer nerfs. Yet another bad player that needs Condi mirage crutches!doesnt it make you scratch your head, that mesmer main. drops his class to play a class with compleatly different playstyle and starts winning more?for all your whining im kinda jelly, you dont get to be kitten over by holo, that resustains to full hp 3 times during a duel, or spb that eats your entire combo and loses 60% hp, only to spam dodges like monkey only to be healed passively due to overtuned traits/signet.You dont see the joy of monkeys using condi thief to their full potential, the onse that actually dodge skills and not spam it randomly, the onse that will literarly dodge everything you throw at them that is not cast instantly, and the only counterplay is to guess their 10k poison instacast ability.You dont get to play capricorn against 3 firebrands that just rubeachother on the node. ( god bless scourge nerf )kitten game would be so fun and easy if our biggest worry was condi mirage.Well finally there's a reasonable point to talk about. Yes, I see all that and I have no issues with nerfs to those. I support them too! Condi thief is another effortless spec and need to go. Others need tuning down too. Condi Mirage is worst of all still; though but Mesmers want to pretend that it's week and already nerfed to ground.The difference is that most good thief mains realise the issue with Condi thief and dislike it. Mesmers are the opposite. They really want access to broken builds and that's what they've been relying on for years. I'm not making statistical claims here, just sharing my observations.the only thing condition mirage is.... easy to play, low effort, good players take it as counterpick, not as a baseline. Its too hard countered by MANY builds.weaver,fb,thiefs.thats it, and tbh at this point I dont care much if it gets nerfed, I found my new calling in broken abusive frustrating beyond belief core power mes.1 out of 3 games I get pm from salty players. Ah the salt, brings warmth to my hearth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Just to clarify to everyone, looking at the big picture of where Mirage is and how ridiculously broken it is in its current state, players cannot be expected to delve into the detail of everything that's contributing to it. There are several posts across the forums that talk about IH, Chaos Vortex and a range of other things contributing to this.It's fair enough for some of us to show faith in the capabilities of the development team to work out balancing options. I'm sure they have a job and I hope we all understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 because you mention sword builds, i just wanted to point out that it's not random ambushes and dodges. I run sword only and have always since launch, i can tell you that it's true that sword mirage are great at interrupts. But interrupts take keen eyes, planning, timing, and balancing that between when you actually want to avoid damage and when you think it's more important to get that interrupt off. So i do think staff mirage, and to an extent scepter is a problem. I don't see other weapons as being problematic. For one, sword clones all run into melee before attack, thus dying before they really do anything. And two, I don't want my playstyle affected because of condi staff users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @Hot Boy.7138 said:because you mention sword builds, i just wanted to point out that it's not random ambushes and dodges. I run sword only and have always since launch, i can tell you that it's true that sword mirage are great at interrupts. But interrupts take keen eyes, planning, timing, and balancing that between when you actually want to avoid damage and when you think it's more important to get that interrupt off. So i do think staff mirage, and to an extent scepter is a problem. I don't see other weapons as being problematic. For one, sword clones all run into melee before attack, thus dying before they really do anything. And two, I don't want my playstyle affected because of condi staff users.I do specifically see scepter / pistol and staff Condi mirage spec being the problem. Interrupts followed with bleeds and finally the ability to run off at will, only to get back soon after to unload again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @BadMed.3846 mesmer isn't what is keeping you in Gold 1-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @BadMed.3846 I just wanna say that your posts are joy to read, and that we are all very happy to have you.almost nothing makes my morning as well as your posts, keep them up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @Leonidrex.5649 one way or another, joy matters. It's good, you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 On a related note, the condi mirage bot I'm a big fan of (I don't die to it but my team does a lot) has managed to complete 820 games this season alone. I can't even calculate the amount of gold he's gathered. But he's at well above 1300 rating. Clear evidence of spammability of a spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @BadMed.3846 said:On a related note, the condi mirage bot I'm a big fan of (I don't die to it but my team does a lot) has managed to complete 820 games this season alone. I can't even calculate the amount of gold he's gathered. But he's at well above 1300 rating. Clear evidence of spammability of a spec. Do you think that gutting mirage will make him stop botting? or is he just gonna drop to 1250 and bot there? is there a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@Cyninja.2954 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@mortrialus.3062 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@viquing.8254 said:@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.Leaderboards are not really a true reflection of how good someone is. Even us gold players know it very well how some guys are duo queueing at odd hours to dodge other good players and climb the ladder.You: Mesmer is exploited by players in ranked. Just look at Shorts and how well he does!Me: The best Shorts ever did in ranked was when he very publicly quit mesmer to stream and make videos about Spellbreaker out of frustration regarding mesmer nerfs with almost no prior experience on Spellbreaker.You: Well, not quite. I just mentioned shorts as I randomly saw him streaming. Was a good example that mirage is still very well playable. And that too power. But you get stuck on his history and opinions. You're making unnecessary assumptions. I don't really follow him and nor do I intend to follow and mirage players.In short: your example blew up in your face. You chose said example because of lack of expertise and knowledge which now required you to backpedal since the example given actually worked against the point you were trying to make. Finally your own lack of performance in the game mode prohibits you from showing own data but rather relying on other players to prove your point. Players who on the top end are harder and harder to come by since the class is not as represented as it should be if it was so overpowered.Got it.TL;DR:Player gives bad example, lack of personal skill in the game mode prevents own proof of arguments, still knows what is best for the game and class balance. In short, you're another one making bad assumptions. Read the post again, might help. My expertise is not dependent on watching a streamer on twitch.It's not that hard to understand that someone questioned existence of a good Mesmer and I dropped that name it as I saw his once on twitch.TL;DRYou're another random stopping by to shoot down a post that supports Mesmer nerfs. Yet another bad player that needs Condi mirage crutches!doesnt it make you scratch your head, that mesmer main. drops his class to play a class with compleatly different playstyle and starts winning more?for all your whining im kinda jelly, you dont get to be kitten over by holo, that resustains to full hp 3 times during a duel, or spb that eats your entire combo and loses 60% hp, only to spam dodges like monkey only to be healed passively due to overtuned traits/signet.You dont see the joy of monkeys using condi thief to their full potential, the onse that actually dodge skills and not spam it randomly, the onse that will literarly dodge everything you throw at them that is not cast instantly, and the only counterplay is to guess their 10k poison instacast ability.You dont get to play capricorn against 3 firebrands that just rubeachother on the node. ( god bless scourge nerf )kitten game would be so fun and easy if our biggest worry was condi mirage.Your description is not 100% conclusive.What if for instance: The playstyle was complex on mirage and that said player who plays mirage didn't fully get it and did badly and moved on to play let's say something easier and win? I would need to see data.Also scourge in spvp was less an issue than WVW and that nerf hurt real hard leaving them practically useless in all but 1 mode: WVW yet. People are still crying for having scourge nerfed more and I heard anet wants to nerf boon corrupt more leaving it useless in WVW. If it happens, then scourge will be out of meta everywhere pretty much.I'm not defending badmed i don't know that guy I have no idea what class he plays.And i really think ANET should get involved, like have a staff play multiple classes and actually test out everything of mesmer to give good internal data on performance of mesmers.I could be wrong and i know its the wrong place but those nerfs to chrono really hurt i felt it in pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @Leonidrex.5649 said:@"BadMed.3846" said:On a related note, the condi mirage bot I'm a big fan of (I don't die to it but my team does a lot) has managed to complete 820 games this season alone. I can't even calculate the amount of gold he's gathered. But he's at well above 1300 rating. Clear evidence of spammability of a spec. Do you think that gutting mirage will make him stop botting? or is he just gonna drop to 1250 and bot there? is there a difference?I did say "On a related note". No, it won't stop botting. You're right, it will go lower in tiers and bot there. Agree. But, it doesn't change the fact how easy it is to abuse a spec like Condi Mirage. This also means that mindless lower tier players are button mashing it to victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @bravan.3876 said:@Hot Boy.7138 said:because you mention sword builds, i just wanted to point out that it's not random ambushes and dodges. I run sword only and have always since launch, i can tell you that it's true that sword mirage are great at interrupts. But interrupts take keen eyes, planning, timing, and balancing that between when you actually want to avoid damage and when you think it's more important to get that interrupt off. So i do think staff mirage, and to an extent scepter is a problem. I don't see other weapons as being problematic. For one, sword clones all run into melee before attack, thus dying before they really do anything. And two, I don't want my playstyle affected because of condi staff users.@BadMed.3846 said:I do specifically see scepter / pistol and staff Condi mirage spec being the problem. Interrupts followed with bleeds and finally the ability to run off at will, only to get back soon after to unload again.LoL yet you want to nerf/ delete a trait will affect all weapons/ playstyles even the active and high skillceiling power interrupt playstyle not overperforming at all? A playstyle/weapon you don't even see as an issue yourself? Yes makes sense. Shows how much you know and understand and thought about the class you complain about. That was exactly my point why nerfing IH is the wrong way, IH is an active and high skillceiling trait in general (as long as ambushes are well designed) the only things make Condimirage playstyle that passive are the ambushes and even NORMAL autoattacks from condi clones, which are wrong/ too passive designed. When you compare normal clone autoattacks from power weapons (=zero) to clone dmg from condi wepons (= an afk not dodging scepter Mirage killed me with 2 autospawning clones from Singet of Illusion before the Signet even created the 3. clone and that with only NORMAL autoattacks, not a single ambsuh) than you see where the problems start already. Mirage with autoattack based clone dmg only double the imbalance problem inbetween core clone power and condi dmg. When you ask for IH nerfs/deletion you will dumb down the spec instead making it more skillbased or more active. This and a lot of other points you have to consider when talking about how to balance Mirage. I explained them all very detailed and that for good reasons already several times. That is why just complaining and hoping 100000 other complains about the same wrong things without a single argument will make a wrong claim right (will make enough presure to force Anet into another bad balance change dumbing down the game because listen to gold and below players who don't even have a single argument and can't explain their random opinions at all) is a bad way. And when you rly would care about a skillful game balance you would not act like you do. But you just biased want stuff to get nerfed because you can't deal with it and without rly knowing/ understanding anything about the class and game mechanics behind the problems. @BadMed.3846 said:Just to clarify to everyone, looking at the big picture of where Mirage is and how ridiculously broken it is in its current state, players cannot be expected to delve into the detail of everything that's contributing to it. There are several posts across the forums that talk about IH, Chaos Vortex and a range of other things contributing to this.It's fair enough for some of us to show faith in the capabilities of the development team to work out balancing options. I'm sure they have a job and I hope we all understand it.Wrong, in particular when you ask for such drastic changes (and to your own goal contradicting changes, lol thats the best, you shoot yourself in the foot, in case your goal rly is a more skillful and active mesmer class and not just a dead class) then you cannot go the easy and uneducated way of trying to join the masses hoping you get your will without the need to understand and explain what you are asking for. Only ppl do not rly care about what happens with a class they hate and only want to see it more or less deleted from the game act like you. It is not constructive at all and just shows why it is not a good idea to ask ppl with low skill and low knowledge of game-/ class mechanics. If you want to put all your hope into Anet devs then don't open your mouth at all. But if you want to make balance suggestions (or more just complains in your case) then do us all a favor and make them with brain and explain why you think what you think (or l2live with the fact that no one with more than 1 braincell left can take you serious). What you do is Janus-faced.You also don't look at a bigger picture, quite the opposite: You look at a very narrowed and for that distorted and shortviewed picture and it makes me feel that you just try to hide that you don't have the class knowledge to understand and explain your own opinions (thats why you still refuse to explain). You just run with the equally clueless masses (i have to assume that because not a single IH-complainer could explain to me until now why IH is the problem and why all my arguments are wrong) and hope to get what you want without having a single argument yourself.All what happend until now in the whole forum is ppl repeating "IH is the issue" like a broken record without even understanding what they are asking for. That is how it looks and you (all) will never be able to change that impression without starting to use arguments and explain your balance suggestions/ thoughts. Even my 5 years old brother already can understand what it means to constructive diskuss instead stamp his feed and whine and claim. Also he already understood that the first way is more succesful and that the second way can even hurt/ contradict his own goals. This was rly the last time i directly react to you. If you do not change i am done. You can do what you want ofc but i will then just ignore you and that with good reasons! Time to grow up! For the record, I do think his proposed ICD on infinite horizon is fair. 20 sec may be too long, but it's not a bad idea. And that wouldn't affect me honestly since I actually run the Dune Cloak 99.99% of the time. the other 0.01% of the time I may use infinite horizon or Elusive Mind if i'm in a 1v1 tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:On a related note, the condi mirage bot I'm a big fan of (I don't die to it but my team does a lot) has managed to complete 820 games this season alone. I can't even calculate the amount of gold he's gathered. But he's at well above 1300 rating. Clear evidence of spammability of a spec. Do you think that gutting mirage will make him stop botting? or is he just gonna drop to 1250 and bot there? is there a difference?I did say "On a related note". No, it won't stop botting. You're right, it will go lower in tiers and bot there. Agree. But, it doesn't change the fact how easy it is to abuse a spec like Condi Mirage. This also means that mindless lower tier players are button mashing it to victory. then learn to abuse mindless mashing. count dodges, CC after dodge, stow cancel, its not difficult. Entire spec shouldnt be neuter becouse people like you are too lazy to think while playing and are content on autopiloting. you play like a bot that, do the same thing the bot does and stay the same rank the bot does, your advantage over the bot is adaptability, you refuse to use it, you get farmed by a bot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:On a related note, the condi mirage bot I'm a big fan of (I don't die to it but my team does a lot) has managed to complete 820 games this season alone. I can't even calculate the amount of gold he's gathered. But he's at well above 1300 rating. Clear evidence of spammability of a spec. Do you think that gutting mirage will make him stop botting? or is he just gonna drop to 1250 and bot there? is there a difference?I did say "On a related note". No, it won't stop botting. You're right, it will go lower in tiers and bot there. Agree. But, it doesn't change the fact how easy it is to abuse a spec like Condi Mirage. This also means that mindless lower tier players are button mashing it to victory. then learn to abuse mindless mashing. count dodges, CC after dodge, stow cancel, its not difficult. Entire spec shouldnt be neuter becouse people like you are too lazy to think while playing and are content on autopiloting. you play like a bot that, do the same thing the bot does and stay the same rank the bot does, your advantage over the bot is adaptability, you refuse to use it, you get farmed by a bot.Oh well, great suggestion. Learn to abuse a broken spec! Thanks, I'm not interested in that.I'm not trying to counter a bot. And let's not go on the ranks topic. I checked your rank the @mortrialus.3062 way and you've not even done the minimum number of matches this season. Looking at your other posts too, all you seem to be interested in is more cheese and passive condi spam.I might be getting more joy reading your posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:On a related note, the condi mirage bot I'm a big fan of (I don't die to it but my team does a lot) has managed to complete 820 games this season alone. I can't even calculate the amount of gold he's gathered. But he's at well above 1300 rating. Clear evidence of spammability of a spec. Do you think that gutting mirage will make him stop botting? or is he just gonna drop to 1250 and bot there? is there a difference?I did say "On a related note". No, it won't stop botting. You're right, it will go lower in tiers and bot there. Agree. But, it doesn't change the fact how easy it is to abuse a spec like Condi Mirage. This also means that mindless lower tier players are button mashing it to victory. then learn to abuse mindless mashing. count dodges, CC after dodge, stow cancel, its not difficult. Entire spec shouldnt be neuter becouse people like you are too lazy to think while playing and are content on autopiloting. you play like a bot that, do the same thing the bot does and stay the same rank the bot does, your advantage over the bot is adaptability, you refuse to use it, you get farmed by a bot.Oh well, great suggestion. Learn to abuse a broken spec! Thanks, I'm not interested in that.I'm not trying to counter a bot. And let's not go on the ranks topic. I checked your rank the @mortrialus.3062 way and you've not even done the minimum number of matches this season. Looking at your other posts too, all you seem to be interested in is more cheese and passive condi spam.I might be getting more joy reading your posts!you are not interested in learning, its Player vs Player, if one guy is trying to win, and you are not. good chances the guy that tries to win, Will in fact win! SUPRISE.you just said you have troubles winning against mirage bots, how can anyone take you seriusly after that? In all my playtime I only met 1 mirage bot, quick free win and move on, reported ofc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalisto.5780 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 thing is rightmesmer are already rerolling staff to axe/torch so the nerfs will not do much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 @Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@BadMed.3846 said:On a related note, the condi mirage bot I'm a big fan of (I don't die to it but my team does a lot) has managed to complete 820 games this season alone. I can't even calculate the amount of gold he's gathered. But he's at well above 1300 rating. Clear evidence of spammability of a spec. Do you think that gutting mirage will make him stop botting? or is he just gonna drop to 1250 and bot there? is there a difference?I did say "On a related note". No, it won't stop botting. You're right, it will go lower in tiers and bot there. Agree. But, it doesn't change the fact how easy it is to abuse a spec like Condi Mirage. This also means that mindless lower tier players are button mashing it to victory. then learn to abuse mindless mashing. count dodges, CC after dodge, stow cancel, its not difficult. Entire spec shouldnt be neuter becouse people like you are too lazy to think while playing and are content on autopiloting. you play like a bot that, do the same thing the bot does and stay the same rank the bot does, your advantage over the bot is adaptability, you refuse to use it, you get farmed by a bot.Oh well, great suggestion. Learn to abuse a broken spec! Thanks, I'm not interested in that.I'm not trying to counter a bot. And let's not go on the ranks topic. I checked your rank the @mortrialus.3062 way and you've not even done the minimum number of matches this season. Looking at your other posts too, all you seem to be interested in is more cheese and passive condi spam.I might be getting more joy reading your posts!you are not interested in learning, its Player vs Player, if one guy is trying to win, and you are not. good chances the guy that tries to win, Will in fact win! SUPRISE.you just said you have troubles winning against mirage bots, how can anyone take you seriusly after that? In all my playtime I only met 1 mirage bot, quick free win and move on, reported ofc.You are not interested in the game. I never said I have trouble winning against Mirage Bots. You need to first learn to read. Your playtime is less than 45 games this season, psst. You are not making any sensible contribution and simply going on about preserving cheese that you play. Stop kidding . I have 142 games this season, the fact that YOU are too incompetent to use search function just shows much about you.I bet you have the same attitude towards the game, spend 5s trying and give up :D I'll trust @mortrialus.3062 if he grabs a screenshot of your games count. I looked up merely by adding you and you don't show up on friends' leaderboard at all. Implies you are either lying or the board is lagged for long. Either way, don't try to mesmerise us with your cheese. Your credibility is runing at < 0. Over and out to your pointless "give me cheese" posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 IH is broken and addition of an ICD to it is perfectly reasonable. There's NOTHING wrong with supporting this idea. Walls don't need to be built to dig a pit.Also, IH is just one of many things that need to be nerfed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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