The Mesmers Balance around "Infinit Horizon" in PvP

BadMed.3846 · November 14, 2019

@viquing.8254 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@viquing.8254 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.
Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.
End statement.

Strangely, people who want IH nerfed or changed didn't play mirage :p .Mean how can you understand something if you never play it.

Well first off you dont know who plays what and who doesnt unless they admit that they do or do not play something to you and you hope they didnt lie.Unless you can break into their account or something you have no way of knowing this information but lets assume you are correct.

Assuming you are correct the same thing still applies to other professionsPeople who want stealth nerfs dont play thiefPeople who want plasma nerfs dont play thief and rangerPeople who want fear and chill nerfs dont play necroPeople who want burn nerfs dont play weaver...do you see the pattern here.

Mirage is not a special case. Wont be the first time wont be the last.

In fact this is pretty common in most games that can be taken in any kind of competitive form even the ones that are not meant to be super competitive.One side might say the other is not balanced purely because they play against that side and find it too advantageous to commonly play around on the flip side the side that people complain about might find something on the opposing side even thought they don't play as that side that they also consider too advantageous or unfair.

It wouldnt be balanced if only the side that played that one thing dictated what should be buffed and nerfed with that side or in this case in that profession. Yes its nice to have people who honestly care and want things to be fair but we must admit that many ideas that people think in their own heads would be fair are quite unfair and you dont see them that way till someone from outside the box points it out to you.

You are right, that's why I didn't ask for other class nerf as I didn't know well their mecanics. Which isn't the case for many "rework" (nerf) mesmers suggestions.

@BadMed.3846 said:

@viquing.8254 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.
Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.
End statement.

Strangely, people who want IH nerfed or changed didn't play mirage :p .Mean how can you understand something if you never play it.

@BadMed.3846 said:looking at the big picture of where Mirage is and how ridiculously broken it is in its current stateWhich big picture are you talking about ?Can you detail more this point please because last time a mesmer win a EU mAt is faraway and looking at EU leaderboard, there isn't pink fashion everywhere since many patch now.So where is the mesmer big picture highlighting mesmer opness and broken class ? (and farming bronze pleb isn't what I call a "big picture".)

Scroll back and read. Stop individually calling out for details when relevant information is already there.

Sorry, I didn't find the relevant informations who detail the mesmer "big picture" can you quote it please ?

I hope you understand that I don't owe you anything and you're not entitled to anything here. Look around the forums to get your answers. You're not my problem and your questions are not my issues either. Paint your blurry big picture the way you like.

To the wider audience - we need to get rid of Condi mirage spec.

Leonidrex.5649 · November 14, 2019

@bravan.3876 sword ambush is part of the issue, in fact its spammable version of condi clone ambushes.the cheesiest kills I have gotten on pmirage are setting up curtain, and vomiting ambushes followed by pull and 1shot.

sw3 -> curtain ( dodge during cast ) 1 clone is melee so it dazes quickly, another is near you, ranged so is delayed, and you delay even futher.3 spread out dazes, you can follow by f3 for more CC aids and see how oponent reacts or even shatter f1 into another daze fiesta, followed by f3 stun fiesta followed by curtain into burst from gs.

Sword ambush should gain some damage, 200-400, daze should remain on mesmer propably bumped to 1/2 or 3/4s.it should be used to dealing some damage and most importantly getting clones in position to shatter.

mortrialus.3062 · November 14, 2019

@bravan.3876 said:Yeah that is exactly my guess, that ppl simply not understand when they do the effort to read my stuff. Sadly i have no clue how to explain it easier or shorter, in fact my writings are that long because i try to explain it easy and detailed. I try to use more examples maybe that will help but sure will not make posts shorter, maybe even longer... :(
@mortrialus.3062 said:
» show previous quotesThe main problems with Infinite Horizon are:The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.Calculating with realistic stats
Infinite Horizon will turn the Scepter ambush from a 2,000 damage attack into a 4,000 damage attack at 3 clones. On Axe Infinite Horizon will turn a 4,000 damage >>attack into a 6,800 damage attack at three clones. That's not exactly breaking the bank for maintaining 3 clones.
Infinite Horizon will turn Chaos Vortex from 4,000 damage attack into a 16,000 damage attack with 3 clones.
The problem is Chaos Vortex as an outlier in terms of clone damage and Infinite Horizon's interaction with Deceptive Evasion turning all dodges into potential >>damage rather than making dodges extra rewarding if you've previously set up enough clones like shatters are.

To your points:

Is not a problem of IH but a problem of Anet didn't rework EM into a not gamebreaking mechanic and instead nerfed it to death.
Same it is not a problem of IH it is the problem of Anet nerfing the wrong things, they overnerf active ways of condiapplication (i mean the spammable ineptitude synergy was so broken before nerfs, that IH wasn't even considered to get used before, that means a lot considering how broken some condi clone ambushes still are). With nerfing IH it would be the same wrong nerf on active gamplay parts. Because IH is not the passive element in this formula. Some clone ambsuhes and condiclone normal autoattacks are just too strong in dmg. Also Mesmers own ambushes should not be too strong but also not too weak. But that is easy to adjust by adjusting ambushes from Mesmers and clones.
So do adjust ambushes instead killing a trait that gets more passive when nerfed by ICD or by DE clones not doing the ambush anymore when created. Does any other class with a dodge trait need to dodge twice to be able to get the effect form the trait? Inparticular because Mesmer already need to equip another trait to have an effect on each dodge? Why you expect it from Mesmers? Do any other class need to rebuild class mechanic elements like Warriors needs 2 bars of adrenalin to make a dodge trait work? No because the trait is already limited by the dodgemechanic and the trade off you have in your dodgemanagement. Why should Mesmer have 2 or even 3 times more restrictions in their dodge trait than any other class? So no DE is already a restriction a Mesmer needs to take to utilize IH on each dodge. No other class needs to invest a second traits to make a dodge trait work for each dodge. No other class needs to rebuild class mechanic recources like adrenalin bar on Warrior or head lvl on Holo to make the dodge trait work. Why request it for Mesmer? Also as already explained ICD and other restrictions you add to dodge traits will make the dodge trait MORE PASSIVE NOT LESS. Means no, i highly disagree on your point 3. Mesmer already has more restrictions on this dodge trait than an other class, we don't need to add another one.
Agree to that point but also would add at least scepter clone ambushes and also would add all normal condi autoattacks to be the issue. So with other words it is obvious what to do: Nerf normal clone autoattacks and clone ambsuhes (at least on staff and scepter i would say) or rework them into something with a way smaller dmg part and for that add effects the player can work with, just like sword ambush is designed. And compansate the Mesmer for most parts of the dmg loss by giving him more active ways of condiapplication back without overbuffing it to the old brainless spam all shatters for blind-confusion ineptitude stuff (what is not possible anyway because Mesmer has no trait anymore gives blind to all shatters). IH doesn't need to get touched to balance Condimirage into something more active and more skillful.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:
Sure there's some stuff you could do such as rather than clones doing an ambush attack when you ambush attack they only begin casting when you execute the cast. But really those are the main game play problems with infinite horizon as it stands right now.

It might not be a problem of IH per say, but the fact that the other two choices are both complete nonstarters definitely results in too many mirages running around with this one grandmaster.
First things first Rifle holo will 111111111 has a faster TTK than mesmer with staff or scepter will with three clones doing the same. Same with longbow ranger. This whole "3 clones autoattacking is too passive" is nonsense when most other classes have noticeably better DPS even with stuff like Sharper Images and clone conditions and that creating those clones in the first place is something a mesmer needs to actively do to achieve in the first place. The only ambush that's noticiably too strong with Infinite Horizons is really just staff's.

Second yeah, Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude being able to truck people with 30 stacks of confusion was ridiculous and needed to be adjusted. But making the playstyle's primary damage dealing ability hot garbage while keeping it as a 24 second cooldown is a huge part of why mirage is currently at where it's at. If they brought the damage and the cooldown so that it had nerfed the top end damage but also reduced the cooldown kept similar levels of DPS we probably wouldn't see every single condition mirage completely abandon shatters.

First things first Deceptive Evasion will always remain a good trait worth taking for mesmers until the end of time even in eras where it isn't the meta thing to run. Even if Mirage and Infinite Horizon get absolutely nuked, Deceptive Evasion will be good even without clones spawning doing ambush attacks.

You also miss the point of why Infinite Horizon exists in the first place. It is not there to always get a 3 clone ambush attack every single time on every single dodge. It is not a problem for the game or Mirage if sometimes Mirage dodges and even if they are running Infinite Horizon they get literally zero benefit from Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon provided plenty of value even back when we still had condition shatter mirages and they might dodge when they only have one clone for you.

Infinite Horizon is there to be a gameplay reward for having pre-emptively set up clones for your ambush in the form of what is effectively a flashy 27-80% damage boost on the ambush attacks based on how much set up you've done. This isn't "adding 2 or 3 times the restrictions for their dodge trait than warriors." The ambush attack from the mirage is already their bonus for spending a bar of adrenaline and they get that by default. The point is that getting 3 clone Infinite Horizons should be something that's a bit harder and more rare, and require more challenging set up.

You decouple Deceptive Evasion from Infinite Horizon the way the two synergize and a lot of the worst aspects of condition mirage right now are significantly better. You aren't going up

Also doesn't rly make sense because the active part of IH and ambsuhes with effect like sword are only useful when the Mesmer can use the clones to do the effect without the need to do it himself anyway. When you arrive together with your clone for a daze interrupt you don't need the clone for it in the first place. For the pure dmg ambsuhes not the worst idea but would kill sword completely for Mirage.

Sword Ambush with IH to get a ton of dazes that are all staggered is no more "active" than ambushing with your clones to maximize your damage. One of the main things people hate about Mesmer and especially Infinite Horizon is the sheer number of damage pulses that are flung at you constantly. Like you can be chasing a mesmer, they'll dodge up a jumping puzzle and they'll spawn an Infinite Horizon Scepter Clone that then throws attacks at you for 1.25 seconds. And then the mesmer will get up the the jumping puzzle, and then they'll throw attacks at you for 1.25 seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@"mortrialus.3062" said:The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:
Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.
Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.
Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

If 3 and 4 are true, those need to be addressed. I don't know about 2, because at no point does lack of diversity of playstyle justify an overpowered one. Their condi output is still high with the now surfaced playstyle, so that needs to be addressed in its entirety before additional condition damage is returned.

The staff ambush for both clones and the mirage are getting a 50% reduction next patch. So rather than you and 4 clones hitting a target for 16k condition damage, it's going down to 6k condition damage.

I realize now I really mangled my phrased on three.

With Infinite Horizon, clones spawned with Deceptive Evasion spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.

The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.

This is of note. I am fine with EM exhaustion being shaved if the IH problem gets fixed, if pushing the ability to evade

at all

while stunned to EM with far less exhaustion to make IH the bursty, but more volatile option is out of the question.

bravan.3876 · November 14, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 sword ambush is part of the issue, in fact its spammable version of condi clone ambushes.the cheesiest kills I have gotten on pmirage are setting up curtain, and vomiting ambushes followed by pull and 1shot.
sw3 -> curtain ( dodge during cast ) 1 clone is melee so it dazes quickly, another is near you, ranged so is delayed, and you delay even futher.3 spread out dazes, you can follow by f3 for more CC aids and see how oponent reacts or even shatter f1 into another daze fiesta, followed by f3 stun fiesta followed by curtain into burst from gs.
Sword ambush should gain some damage, 200-400, daze should remain on mesmer propably bumped to 1/2 or 3/4s.it should be used to dealing some damage and most importantly getting clones in position to shatter.

The only relevant skills in this rota are the 2 hard cc skills and s3, focus pull can bait out dodges/ def skills/ movement too easy and if Mesmer rly needs a stun on f3 is discussable (yes i know Mesmer mains think it is needed to hit bursts, i will not say it is not but i think it is something we at least could think about). The short daze from clones doesn't rly do much, you can bait all dodges with focus, s3 and f3 alone. Never saw a decent Powermirages dodge during this combo because the clone daze would break the hard cc the target cannot dodge without stunbreak when it is not timed well inbetween the pull/stun. And why use it inbetween? I mean why you waste a dodge for a clone daze when you already are about to bait defensive skills or movement by the curtain or s3? That is a waste of recources immo. The whole trap with focus is perfect without a dodge for sword clone daze. Curtain, s3, f3 is all you need here. A core Powermes using focus can do this combo in the same way as a Mirage. But even if that would not be the case and the clone daze would have any value into that combo, than it is totally balanced and active to use a dodge for a 1/4 second daze (+a bit of vuln) on a well animatied and slow leap animation from a clone. That is a pretty balanced cost-reward relation actually (compared to all other skills in this game even underwhelming but we don't want to compare to op power creep stuff). If you want to brainless spam dodges for that insane daze effect than ok do it, but i am sure you are a freekill for every decent player then^^ And if you use the dodge for an interrupt because you see the target want to cast something before your curtain is of icd for the pull then this i a skillful and well timed, reactive and active play should be rewarded (and tbh even with Powerblock the reward isn't insane either, what is good, it shouldn't be stronger and again we don't compare to op power creep then it looks even bad).

Sword clone ambush is the best designed ambush in my view with the most active outplay potential and highest skill ceiling but without being op because the leap animations from clones is slow and well animated and can be avoided easy, often with simple movement, the daze is the shortest possible already clearly only meant for mindful interrupts and not a perma daze effect and Condiclone ambushes should be more designed like that, more about utility and effects the player can active work with and need to time and use on purpose to play the build on its maximum potential and to outplay ppl. It should be less about only dmg that even is that high that having it as a passive side effect during dodging pure defensive is enough. That only is the case for condi clone ambsuhes.

The mechanic that clones use a "lesser form" of the mirage ambush is already implemented and i think in terms of balancing and the limitation that PvP balance only can differ in numbers not in mechanics from PvE, it will be possible to give Mesmers own Condiambushes an higher amount of dmg aside from the effect (like blind, slow stuff a player can work with) than the clones. Just like sword ambush is designed, no or low dmg on clone ambush, only the effect for active outplay potential as main purpose of the clone ambushes.

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@bravan.3876 said:Yeah that is exactly my guess, that ppl simply not understand when they do the effort to read my stuff. Sadly i have no clue how to explain it easier or shorter, in fact my writings are that long because i try to explain it easy and detailed. I try to use more examples maybe that will help but sure will not make posts shorter, maybe even longer... :(
@mortrialus.3062 said:
» show previous quotesThe main problems with Infinite Horizon are:The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.Calculating with realistic stats
Infinite Horizon will turn the Scepter ambush from a 2,000 damage attack into a 4,000 damage attack at 3 clones. On Axe Infinite Horizon will turn a 4,000 damage >>attack into a 6,800 damage attack at three clones. That's not exactly breaking the bank for maintaining 3 clones.
Infinite Horizon will turn Chaos Vortex from 4,000 damage attack into a 16,000 damage attack with 3 clones.
The problem is Chaos Vortex as an outlier in terms of clone damage and Infinite Horizon's interaction with Deceptive Evasion turning all dodges into potential >>damage rather than making dodges extra rewarding if you've previously set up enough clones like shatters are.

To your points:

Is not a problem of IH but a problem of Anet didn't rework EM into a not gamebreaking mechanic and instead nerfed it to death.
Same it is not a problem of IH it is the problem of Anet nerfing the wrong things, they overnerf active ways of condiapplication (i mean the spammable ineptitude synergy was so broken before nerfs, that IH wasn't even considered to get used before, that means a lot considering how broken some condi clone ambushes still are). With nerfing IH it would be the same wrong nerf on active gamplay parts. Because IH is not the passive element in this formula. Some clone ambsuhes and condiclone normal autoattacks are just too strong in dmg. Also Mesmers own ambushes should not be too strong but also not too weak. But that is easy to adjust by adjusting ambushes from Mesmers and clones.
So do adjust ambushes instead killing a trait that gets more passive when nerfed by ICD or by DE clones not doing the ambush anymore when created. Does any other class with a dodge trait need to dodge twice to be able to get the effect form the trait? Inparticular because Mesmer already need to equip another trait to have an effect on each dodge? Why you expect it from Mesmers? Do any other class need to rebuild class mechanic elements like Warriors needs 2 bars of adrenalin to make a dodge trait work? No because the trait is already limited by the dodgemechanic and the trade off you have in your dodgemanagement. Why should Mesmer have 2 or even 3 times more restrictions in their dodge trait than any other class? So no DE is already a restriction a Mesmer needs to take to utilize IH on each dodge. No other class needs to invest a second traits to make a dodge trait work for each dodge. No other class needs to rebuild class mechanic recources like adrenalin bar on Warrior or head lvl on Holo to make the dodge trait work. Why request it for Mesmer? Also as already explained ICD and other restrictions you add to dodge traits will make the dodge trait MORE PASSIVE NOT LESS. Means no, i highly disagree on your point 3. Mesmer already has more restrictions on this dodge trait than an other class, we don't need to add another one.
Agree to that point but also would add at least scepter clone ambushes and also would add all normal condi autoattacks to be the issue. So with other words it is obvious what to do: Nerf normal clone autoattacks and clone ambsuhes (at least on staff and scepter i would say) or rework them into something with a way smaller dmg part and for that add effects the player can work with, just like sword ambush is designed. And compansate the Mesmer for most parts of the dmg loss by giving him more active ways of condiapplication back without overbuffing it to the old brainless spam all shatters for blind-confusion ineptitude stuff (what is not possible anyway because Mesmer has no trait anymore gives blind to all shatters). IH doesn't need to get touched to balance Condimirage into something more active and more skillful.

@mortrialus.3062 said:
Sure there's some stuff you could do such as rather than clones doing an ambush attack when you ambush attack they only begin casting when you execute the cast. But really those are the main game play problems with infinite horizon as it stands right now.

It might not be a problem of IH per say, but the fact that the other two choices are both complete nonstarters definitely results in too many mirages running around with this one grandmaster.
First things first Rifle holo will 111111111 has a faster TTK than mesmer with staff or scepter will with three clones doing the same. Same with longbow ranger. This whole "3 clones autoattacking is too passive" is nonsense when most other classes have noticeably better DPS even with stuff like Sharper Images and clone conditions and that creating those clones in the first place is something a mesmer needs to actively do to achieve in the first place. The only ambush that's noticiably too strong with Infinite Horizons is really just staff's.

Second yeah, Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude being able to truck people with 30 stacks of confusion was ridiculous and needed to be adjusted. But making the playstyle's primary damage dealing ability hot garbage while keeping it as a 24 second cooldown is a huge part of why mirage is currently at where it's at. If they brought the damage and the cooldown so that it had nerfed the top end damage but also reduced the cooldown kept similar levels of DPS we probably wouldn't see every single condition mirage completely abandon shatters.

First things first Deceptive Evasion will always remain a good trait worth taking for mesmers until the end of time even in eras where it isn't the meta thing to run. Even if Mirage and Infinite Horizon get absolutely nuked, Deceptive Evasion will be good even without clones spawning doing ambush attacks.

You also miss the point of why Infinite Horizon exists in the first place. It is not there to always get a 3 clone ambush attack every single time on every single dodge. It is not a problem for the game or Mirage if sometimes Mirage dodges and even if they are running Infinite Horizon they get literally zero benefit from Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon provided plenty of value even back when we still had condition shatter mirages and they might dodge when they only have one clone for you.

Infinite Horizon is there to be a gameplay reward for having pre-emptively set up clones for your ambush in the form of what is effectively a flashy 27-80% damage boost on the ambush attacks based on how much set up you've done. This isn't "adding 2 or 3 times the restrictions for their dodge trait than warriors." The ambush attack from the mirage is already their bonus for spending a bar of adrenaline and they get that by default. The point is that getting 3 clone Infinite Horizons should be something that's a bit harder and more rare, and require more challenging set up.

You decouple Deceptive Evasion from Infinite Horizon the way the two synergize and a lot of the worst aspects of condition mirage right now are significantly better. You aren't going up

Also doesn't rly make sense because the active part of IH and ambsuhes with effect like sword are only useful when the Mesmer can use the clones to do the effect without the need to do it himself anyway. When you arrive together with your clone for a daze interrupt you don't need the clone for it in the first place. For the pure dmg ambsuhes not the worst idea but would kill sword completely for Mirage.

Sword Ambush with IH to get a ton of dazes that are all staggered is no more "active" than ambushing with your clones to maximize your damage. One of the main things people hate about Mesmer and especially Infinite Horizon is the sheer number of damage pulses that are flung at you constantly. Like you can be chasing a mesmer, they'll dodge up a jumping puzzle and they'll spawn an Infinite Horizon Scepter Clone that then throws attacks at you for 1.25 seconds. And then the mesmer will get up the the jumping puzzle, and then they'll throw attacks at you for 1.25 seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:
Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.
Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.
Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

If 3 and 4 are true, those need to be addressed. I don't know about 2, because at no point does lack of diversity of playstyle justify an overpowered one. Their condi output is still high with the now surfaced playstyle, so that needs to be addressed in its entirety before additional condition damage is returned.

The staff ambush for both clones and the mirage are getting a 50% reduction next patch. So rather than you and 4 clones hitting a target for 16k condition damage, it's going down to 6k condition damage.

I realize now I really mangled my phrased on three.

With Infinite Horizon, clones spawned with Deceptive Evasion spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.

The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.

This is of note. I am fine with EM exhaustion being shaved if the IH problem gets fixed, if pushing the ability to evade

at all

while stunned to EM with far less exhaustion to make IH the bursty, but more volatile option is out of the question.

Yes true and i am absolutely with you here. EM needs to get a rework, remove stunbreak on dodge and exhaustion and give it something useful and not gambreaking instead. Also look at the other grandmaster for some improvements without overbuffing it.
Neither Coremesmer nor Chrono in power and condi builds were running DE pre PoF if i remember right. Superiority Complex on one side is too important for the burst on oneshot builds and Condibuilds used Ineptitude/ Blinding Dissipation. Also i didn't mean DE itself is a restriction, ofc the trait is good and doesn't need any buff or whatever. I mean it is a limitiation of IH that IH needs another trait to even function as any other dodge trait of other classes. IH has the limitation, not DE. Adding the need to dodge twice to make DE clones function with IH will add another restriction to a dodge dmg trait also will kill every ability to use IH active and on purpose to outplay opponents. Because this fucntions like an ICD. A player often will not be able to make a sword clone do a daze interupt when needed because everytime he needed to dodge for pure defensive reasons all active uses are impossible during ICD is running or during Mirage has no second dodge rdy to make a DE clone do something (not to mention that the DE clone is most likely dead before the Mirage dodges a second time for him doing an ambush and evade).
Yes ofc there are other classes having balance issue in how easy they can apply dmg and some classes clearly have overperforming autoattacks but the goal is to nerf power creep on all classes and higher skill ceiling on all classes, so trying to justify one op thing with other op things on other classes is never a good argument, also you are right with the what you say.I agree that they overnerfed the whole condiapplication through shatters and already said just remove the dmg from condi ambush clones and condi clones normal autoattacks and bring it back to shatters. We agree to that. But that is already enough, we don't need any ICD on IH or make make DE not rly function with IH anymore.This would just kill the active and high skill ceiling part of IH and is not needed to turn Condimesmer into a more active and more skillful playstyle.
Mirage doesn't need to trait IH for their own ambushes you cannot link that together, Warrior also have their class mechanic aside form traiting for a dodge trait. You have to analyse what you gain in addition when using the dodge trait. Mesmers own ambsuh you get from using Mirage traitline, means you already invested another trait (even a whole traitline for that feature, you cannot count that double, this has nothing to do with what rewards IH gives itself). These are 2 different things. Why should a Mirgae equip IH when he gets nothing out of it than restrictions? As said Mirage Cloak and Mirages own ambush the Mesmer gets without traiting IH. An ICD on dodge traits in general, not only for IH, makes no sense, it makes the trait compeltely passive and is just the wrong way. Better adjust ambushes from clones so they don't overperform. You have better fine tuning through ambushes then with killing a trait or make it completely passive who is not overperforming on all builds, who is not overperfomring by its own in general (like old CI trait did). IH is an active and high skill ceiling skill in general, but only as long as ambushes are designed well.

From what you write i am not sure if you rly understand my point, i am not the one want to nerf or delete IH, i ofc see the costs it has for Mesmers to even get Clones up (that is exactly my point when saying IH has already more restrictions than any other dodge trait in the game). I never complained about it. Even more i am saying IH is not the problem, it is already the most restricted dodge trait in the game (what is fine and not avoidable anyway), but more restrictions are bad and not needed and also would not make it more skillful, it just would make it useless and even more important would turn it into something even more passive, less skillful. The better way to balance Condimirage is to adjust Condiclone ambsuhes and for that give more ways of active condiapplications back to Mesmer by shatters.

Means in the end we only disagree in one point: I never would give IH an ICD or make DE not doing the ambush on creation. That just would kill the trait and make it more passive and kill all skill ceiling this traits provide when ambushes are designed well and not op. That is rly the only thing we both disagree. But that is not even a problem becasue we agree in staff condi ambsuh overperforming (i just add scepter and clone normal autoattacks to it), so we both already say ok nerf staff ambsuh (FROM CLONES!). Any further restrictions to IH are not needed then anyway.

Yeah i know, another wall of text. No clue how to say it shorter. I hope at least it is understandable now?

ZDragon.3046 · November 14, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Hot Boy.7138 said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

the sad cmirage playstyle, 3clone f2 shatter in melee range applies 4 stacks of confusion, LOL.1-2 clone auto are worth more, the only time cmirage actually shatters is when they are out of combat to have boons during combat, or after they used other shatter ( f3 for must daze, or f4 ) again, to get boons. becouse lets not kid ourselfs, f1 and f2 deals trash dmg on cmes.

Perhaps this would not be the case if Mirage actually had different shatters apart from core mesmer shatters which is something ive been saying should happen for a while now. But people really really dont want to lose distortion. Ideally 1 to shatter and respawn all current clones onto a specific target with a short cd would be ideal for sure.

As far as trash damage im not sure what you consider good damage vs trash damage. IF a single clone ran at me and shattered on me for 7k or something i would quit pvp because thats ridiculous. Maybe the shatters are not trash damage but are only seen as such when you compare them to full damage ambush staff attacks from you and all your clones?

Leonidrex.5649 · November 14, 2019

@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@"Hot Boy.7138" said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

the sad cmirage playstyle, 3clone f2 shatter in melee range applies 4 stacks of confusion, LOL.1-2 clone auto are worth more, the only time cmirage actually shatters is when they are out of combat to have boons during combat, or after they used other shatter ( f3 for must daze, or f4 ) again, to get boons. becouse lets not kid ourselfs, f1 and f2 deals trash dmg on cmes.

Perhaps this would not be the case if Mirage actually had different shatters apart from core mesmer shatters which is something ive been saying should happen for a while now. But people really really dont want to lose distortion. Ideally 1 to shatter and respawn all current clones onto a specific target with a short cd would be ideal for sure.

As far as trash damage im not sure what you consider good damage vs trash damage. IF a single clone ran at me and shattered on me for 7k or something i would quit pvp because thats ridiculous. Maybe the shatters are not trash damage but are only seen as such when you compare them to full damage ambush staff attacks from you and all your clones?

I consider using 3 clones, for a shatter at melee range. to deal 2k dmg a waste. Most classes deal this much with basic auto.Im not asking for tactical nukes on condi shatter, but the fact reamins that F1 deals more damage then F2 for CONDI. F2 was supposed to be condi shatter, while f1 is power shatter.Shatter damage is fine on power becouse it scales, condi has 1 stack of confusion and thats it, lel.

Oh and every mirage fears "different" shatters, becouse its gonna end up in a bin alongside chrono.

ZDragon.3046 · November 14, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@"Hot Boy.7138" said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

the sad cmirage playstyle, 3clone f2 shatter in melee range applies 4 stacks of confusion, LOL.1-2 clone auto are worth more, the only time cmirage actually shatters is when they are out of combat to have boons during combat, or after they used other shatter ( f3 for must daze, or f4 ) again, to get boons. becouse lets not kid ourselfs, f1 and f2 deals trash dmg on cmes.

Perhaps this would not be the case if Mirage actually had different shatters apart from core mesmer shatters which is something ive been saying should happen for a while now. But people really really dont want to lose distortion. Ideally 1 to shatter and respawn all current clones onto a specific target with a short cd would be ideal for sure.

As far as trash damage im not sure what you consider good damage vs trash damage. IF a single clone ran at me and shattered on me for 7k or something i would quit pvp because thats ridiculous. Maybe the shatters are not trash damage but are only seen as such when you compare them to full damage ambush staff attacks from you and all your clones?

I consider using 3 clones, for a shatter at melee range. to deal 2k dmg a waste. Most classes deal this much with basic auto.Im not asking for tactical nukes on condi shatter, but the fact reamins that F1 deals more damage then F2 for CONDI. F2 was supposed to be condi shatter, while f1 is power shatter.Shatter damage is fine on power becouse it scales, condi has 1 stack of confusion and thats it, lel.

But cant you spec to have torment on shatter which does scale with your condi damage. So it goes from you having a single shatter to use to having 3-4 shatters you can use which will inflict torment on successful hit

Oh and every mirage fears "different" shatters, becouse its gonna end up in a bin alongside chrono.I mean Chronos's shatters themselves are not bad. If anything they are a bit better if your foe is slowed when they hit. The only real issue is not being able to instantly use f1-f3 even with 0 clones That was one of the biggest complaint factors for chrono as to why it was dead that i read after that change happened.

Leonidrex.5649 · November 14, 2019

@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@"Hot Boy.7138" said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.