The Mesmers Balance around "Infinit Horizon" in PvP

[bravan.3876]

@BadMed.3846 said:IH is broken and addition of an ICD to it is perfectly reasonable. There's NOTHING wrong with supporting this idea. Walls don't need to be built to dig a pit.

Also, IH is just one of many things that need to be nerfed.

Again just meaningless claims. Explanations/ arguments need to happen at least a single time otherwise it is nothing more than a rumour and you can't prove a rumour to be right by its pure existence.

[BadMed.3846]

@bravan.3876 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:IH is broken and addition of an ICD to it is perfectly reasonable. There's NOTHING wrong with supporting this idea. Walls don't need to be built to dig a pit.

Also, IH is just one of many things that need to be nerfed.

Again just meaningless claims. Explanations/ arguments need to happen at least a single time otherwise it is nothing more than a rumour and you can't prove a rumour to be right by its pure existence.

We're all a rumour and you're the truth.Your walls are thick and our posts are paper.You've got substance and we're the illusions.Our ambush is coming, but not so soon.Wait 20s ICD, before it's full moon!

[bravan.3876]

Ok I am relieved, hell yeah! I will not respond to you anymore, just so you know, and i finally mean it.

[phokus.8934]

How about you all just stop responding to BadMed? He’s not going to change his MO and no one is going to change his mind on anything.

People who refuse to listen to logic and aren’t open for discussion aren’t worth your time.

[ZDragon.3046]

ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

End statement.

[bravan.3876]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

End statement.

You don't ge t it do you? The problem is not, that they have a different opinion, the problem is that not a single poster yet has explained or listed a single argument for their nerf claim until now. That makes it meaningless per se, by logic, not by me calling it out. As said when you know what you are talking about then just list arguments and explain already. I clearly miss the prove here that any nerf IH claim is based on logic and knowledge. It never happened until now. Either explain yourself or at least quote the post where the stuff got explained your nerf IH claims are related to. Again i just quote myself because i get tired of repeating the obvious:

This is not true i see people explaining it in detail in plenty of other places on these forums if you read other threads you don't need to re explain it again each time you make a comment on it.

this is not a new hot topic where no one has ever not explained how they feel on both sides you can go to other threads and read plenty of both. There is no need to explain basic post comments again for the 10000th time just like i said before.

Not everyone has that kind of time and energy if they just want to make a basic statement like "its too strong" or "it needs a slight nerf" not every comment is meant to be an argument some times its just meant to be nothing more than personal opinion so stop attacking peoples comments to force arguments. Not everyone is here to make an argument.

This is what im trying to say.

As said show me one post where the nerf claim for IH got explained. I didn't see a single one. Or you explain by yourself, you should be able to without searching the forums right? I am fine with both but just claiming that somewhere someone maybe explained something is not helping and as said also not true from what i have seen in this forum. We got detailed nerf requests yes but that is not a detailed explanation about why the poster thinks something even needs a nerf.Oh and also pls include my arguments into your explanations or quotes, so i then don't need to restart with my arguments because they got ignored again. Thanks in advance.

What we talk about are heavy exaggerated nerf requested repeated with passion and with clearly high time investment and you want to tell me that then the energy and time is not enough to explain the claims? Nice try dude, misses the logic but whatever who needs that right? xD Alone the time you invested trying to convince me that there are arguments listed somewhere in the forum and that none of you need to explain anything could have been used to just explain and list arguments from you instead.

[bravan.3876]

@mortrialus.3062 My point starts even before that, before we need to look at numbers so deeply (also i do not deny that some clone amsbushes overperform in dmg i just say the problem is not IH and nerfing IH is the wrong way). I think no one rly disagree with Condimirage being to passively and to defensive playable during doing hell of dmg from clones. The only disagreement between me and nerf IH claimers is the way to solve the problem. I think the ways i showed prevent the class from getting dumbed down on other builds having high skill ceiling already, preventing an active and high skill ceiling trait from gettting deleted for no reason but my rework ideas have in the end the same result: Condimirage will be more active and more skillful. BUT without killing the whole spec or other builds which are interesting and active and hard to play already and where not even Badmed see an issue with. So why ask for nerfs will destroy builds you do not even complain about? When i showed an alternative to nerf the build ppl have an issue with, without nerfing other builds not op? So the missunderstandign i see is not about needs Condimirage still some adjustments, it is about how the whole class mechanic works and what exactly causes the passivitiy and low skill ceiling. And it is not IH, it just isn't. Ofc deleting IH would delete clone ambushes but it would also kill half the nature of the spec and it would kill the trait with the most skill celing for Mirage. It is like using a hammer or a shotgun to kill a fly. And totally unnecessary when you can solve the problems by just reworking 2-3 clone ambushes

[mortrialus.3062]

@bravan.3876 said:@mortrialus.3062 My point starts even before that (also i do not deny that some clone amsbushes overperform in dmg i just say the problem is not IH and nerfing IH is the wrong way). I think no one rly disagree with Condimirage being to passively and to defensive playable during doing hell of dmg from clones. The only disagreement between me and IH claimers is the way to solve the problem. I think the ways i showed prevent the class from getting dumbed down on other builds having high skill ceiling already, preventing an active and high skill ceiling trait from gettting deleted for no reason but my rework ideas have in the end the same result: Condimirage will be more active and more skillful. BUT without killing the whole spec or other builds which are interesting and active and hard to play already and where not even Badmed see an issue with. So why ask for nerfs will destroy builds you do not even complain about? When i showed an alternative to nerf the build ppl have an issue with, without nerfing other build not op?

To be quite frank I've seen a ton of your posts and find them rather hard to parse exactly what you're saying and I don't really understand the meaning of. As I said before:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Flandre.2870 said:Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGEwhich is Infinite Horizon.If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.This is also why they've gutted portal.

The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:

1. The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.
2. Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.
3. Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.
4. Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

Calculating with realistic stats

Infinite Horizon will turn the Scepter ambush from a 2,000 damage attack into a 4,000 damage attack at 3 clones. On Axe Infinite Horizon will turn a 4,000 damage attack into a 6,800 damage attack at three clones. That's not exactly breaking the bank for maintaining 3 clones.

Infinite Horizon will turn Chaos Vortex from 4,000 damage attack into a 16,000 damage attack with 3 clones.

The problem is Chaos Vortex as an outlier in terms of clone damage and Infinite Horizon's interaction with Deceptive Evasion turning all dodges into potential damage rather than making dodges extra rewarding if you've previously set up enough clones like shatters are.

Sure there's some stuff you could do such as rather than clones doing an ambush attack when you ambush attack they only begin casting when you execute the cast. But really those are the main game play problems with infinite horizon as it stands right now.

[bravan.3876]

Yeah that is exactly my guess, that ppl simply not understand when they do the effort to read my stuff. Sadly i have no clue how to explain it easier or shorter, in fact my writings are that long because i try to explain it easy and detailed. I try to use more examples maybe that will help but sure will not make posts shorter, maybe even longer... :(

@mortrialus.3062 said:

» show previous quotesThe main problems with Infinite Horizon are:The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.Calculating with realistic stats

Infinite Horizon will turn the Scepter ambush from a 2,000 damage attack into a 4,000 damage attack at 3 clones. On Axe Infinite Horizon will turn a 4,000 damage >>attack into a 6,800 damage attack at three clones. That's not exactly breaking the bank for maintaining 3 clones.

Infinite Horizon will turn Chaos Vortex from 4,000 damage attack into a 16,000 damage attack with 3 clones.

The problem is Chaos Vortex as an outlier in terms of clone damage and Infinite Horizon's interaction with Deceptive Evasion turning all dodges into potential >>damage rather than making dodges extra rewarding if you've previously set up enough clones like shatters are.

To your points:

1. Is not a problem of IH but a problem of Anet didn't rework EM into a not gamebreaking mechanic and instead nerfed it to death.

2. Same it is not a problem of IH it is the problem of Anet nerfing the wrong things, they overnerf active ways of condiapplication (i mean the spammable ineptitude synergy was so broken before nerfs, that IH wasn't even considered to get used before, that means a lot considering how broken some condi clone ambushes still are). With nerfing IH it would be the same wrong nerf on active gamplay parts. Because IH is not the passive element in this formula. Some clone ambsuhes and condiclone normal autoattacks are just too strong in dmg. Also Mesmers own ambushes should not be too strong but also not too weak. But that is easy to adjust by adjusting ambushes from Mesmers and clones.

3. So do adjust ambushes instead killing a trait that gets more passive when nerfed by ICD or by DE clones not doing the ambush anymore when created. Does any other class with a dodge trait need to dodge twice to be able to get the effect form the trait? Inparticular because Mesmer already need to equip another trait to have an effect on each dodge? Why you expect it from Mesmers? Do any other class need to rebuild class mechanic elements like Warriors needs 2 bars of adrenalin to make a dodge trait work? No because the trait is already limited by the dodgemechanic and the trade off you have in your dodgemanagement. Why should Mesmer have 2 or even 3 times more restrictions in their dodge trait than any other class? So no DE is already a restriction a Mesmer needs to take to utilize IH on each dodge. No other class needs to invest a second traits to make a dodge trait work for each dodge. No other class needs to rebuild class mechanic recources like adrenalin bar on Warrior or head lvl on Holo to make the dodge trait work. Why request it for Mesmer? Also as already explained ICD and other restrictions you add to dodge traits will make the dodge trait MORE PASSIVE NOT LESS. Means no, i highly disagree on your point 3. Mesmer already has more restrictions on this dodge trait than an other class, we don't need to add another one.

4. Agree to that point but also would add at least scepter clone ambushes and also would add all normal condi autoattacks to be the issue. So with other words it is obvious what to do: Nerf normal clone autoattacks and clone ambsuhes (at least on staff and scepter i would say) or rework them into something with a way smaller dmg part and for that add effects the player can work with, just like sword ambush is designed. And compansate the Mesmer for most parts of the dmg loss by giving him more active ways of condiapplication back without overbuffing it to the old brainless spam all shatters for blind-confusion ineptitude stuff (what is not possible anyway because Mesmer has no trait anymore gives blind to all shatters). IH doesn't need to get touched to balance Condimirage into something more active and more skillful.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Sure there's some stuff you could do such as rather than clones doing an ambush attack when you ambush attack they only begin casting when you execute the cast. But really those are the main game play problems with infinite horizon as it stands right now.

Also doesn't rly make sense because the active part of IH and ambsuhes with effect like sword are only useful when the Mesmer can use the clones to do the effect without the need to do it himself anyway. When you arrive together with your clone for a daze interrupt you don't need the clone for it in the first place. For the pure dmg ambsuhes not the worst idea but would kill sword completely for Mirage.

[bravan.3876]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:because you mention sword builds, i just wanted to point out that it's not random ambushes and dodges. I run sword only and have always since launch, i can tell you that it's true that sword mirage are great at interrupts. But interrupts take keen eyes, planning, timing, and balancing that between when you actually want to avoid damage and when you think it's more important to get that interrupt off. So i do think staff mirage, and to an extent scepter is a problem. I don't see other weapons as being problematic. For one, sword clones all run into melee before attack, thus dying before they really do anything. And two, I don't want my playstyle affected because of condi staff users.

@BadMed.3846 said:I do specifically see scepter / pistol and staff Condi mirage spec being the problem. Interrupts followed with bleeds and finally the ability to run off at will, only to get back soon after to unload again.

LoL yet you want to nerf/ delete a trait will affect all weapons/ playstyles even the active and high skillceiling power interrupt playstyle not overperforming at all? A playstyle/weapon you don't even see as an issue yourself? Yes makes sense. Shows how much you know and understand and thought about the class you complain about.Let's just stop there as the rest of the post above is simply a meaningless wall of text and accusational ............ (fill whatever wall of text you like to here).

First of all, do you even know what Condi Mirage spec I'm talking about? If not, have a look here:

https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/mesmer

I'm sure, sooner or later, you will realise that Infinite Horizon is utilised by this build. Honestly, I don't care about what impact a nerf has on other specs. That's not for me to look into. You may post your suggestions freely and noone is stopping you. So will I.

So what does IH even do? Well, straight from the WiKi:

The sharing of Mirage Cloak Mirage Cloak forces all active clones (not phantasms) to use their respective Ambush skill since clones share your auto-attack skill.

So, how does it impact Scepter? Well:

Launch a barrage of chaos orbs at your foe, inflicting either confusion or torment each hit. Condition duration halved for clones.

Looking at in isolation, you'd argue - so what? Well, couple this with Mirage's Mirage Cloak then. Every time you dodge you get a 2s window for:

Launch a barrage of chaos orbs at your foe, inflicting either confusion or torment each hit. Condition duration halved for clones.

With Speed of Sand, Blink and other escape mechanics, which Mesmers have access to due to good reasons and design choices, things get worse and out of control in terms of their potential to inflict stacks of conditions within a really short period of time. Coupled with that, there's tons of protection offered by Chaotic Dampening and Mirage Mantle. And if you manage to stack conditions on them, Arcane Thievery comes into play to EASILY transfer 3 conditions back, steal 3 boons - wait....and also slow the enemy down and give you quickness. All this at 1200 range and guess what, Unblockable too!

Now if all fails, you still have signet of midnight to get a short stealth and blind up to 5 enemies. Well, take a stunbreak too - its all freebies, why not.

Let's also add on top of this Duelist's Discipline to recharge pistol skills (25%) on interrupt (really easy to land) and give active illusions a 100% chance to cause bleeding. Evasive Mirror allows you to get 2s projectile reflects with every successful evasion.

So, what is condi mirage doing?Landing conditions, avoiding physical damange, evading & reflecting and finally getting out of harm's with with minimal effort. Few seconds later, its back to rinse and repeat.

Now, I'm going to leave Chaos Vortex up to your imagination!

C'mon, let's get over this joke spec!

Holy kitten i give up. So your only argument is that one build you complain about use that trait and that is reason enough for you to ask for nerfs to that trait, during that you even admit that you don't care what affects this will have on the class as a whole/ on other builds. You admit that you are not able to look at the bigger picture so you are able to see that nothing what you complain about actually is rly caused by IH itself, and that is is possible to nerf/ rework this build to your satisfaction without killing/ dumb down the whole spec/ other builds, that it is possible without even touching IH. As you say yourself, you simply don't care about the bigger picture. You are obviously biased. Case closed.

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

For the record, I do think his proposed ICD on infinite horizon is fair. 20 sec may be too long, but it's not a bad idea. And that wouldn't affect me honestly since I actually run the Dune Cloak 99.99% of the time. the other 0.01% of the time I may use infinite horizon or Elusive Mind if i'm in a 1v1 tourney.

It is fine when you personally don't care about an ICD because you barely use the trait but balance suggestions should not be based on if you use something or not. Following that logic i don't need to care for any Mesmer related stuff because as a multiclass player i can just play another class or i can be even more happy to be carried by Condimirage when it needs even less skill and not more. An ICD on a dodge trait makes no sense and also that got explained already several times not only by me. Feel free to search and read these posts explaining it if you are interested in understanding stuff outside of the traits you use and care about. Do you play other classes? Could you imagine to put an ICD on Engis or Warriors dodge trait and give it further requirements to work (like a Warrrior needs to have at least 2 adrenalin bars up or a Holo needs to be in overhead for the dmg trait to work?). How would it be possible to work with that trait active as a player? It is not active at all anymore, it would become even more passive because every active use is burried under an ICD every time the player needs to dodge for defensive purpose only or burried under further restrictions.. But i am already repeating myself. As said if you are interested you find at least my post easy in this thread explaining this step by step in the most easy way i am able to.

I'm just not paid to care about traits that I don't use and things that don't affect me. I don't work for anet. I'm not on the balance team. That's just how it is. So yes, I don't care at all about nerfs to Infinite Horizon because I rarely use it, but I encounter it often in pvp from staff/scepter users. So if it gets an ICD, i think that's fair and the change won't do collateral damage to my build.

But it would do collateral dmg to other builds not using staff or scepter but using IH. As said it is fine when you say you personally don't care because you don't use the trait, then Anet can just skip your post as not relevant for the discussion. Because that builds not use IH do not suffer when it even gets deleted is obvious. It is a difference than saying there is objectively no problem with ICD on IH in general, there is just no problem for ICD on IH on individuell builds NOT USING IH. But i look more on the bigger picture means looking at all possible builds and if they get more skillful or less when you have an ICD on IH. And the answer is clearly less skillful, less active with ICD on IH.

[Hot Boy.7138]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:because you mention sword builds, i just wanted to point out that it's not random ambushes and dodges. I run sword only and have always since launch, i can tell you that it's true that sword mirage are great at interrupts. But interrupts take keen eyes, planning, timing, and balancing that between when you actually want to avoid damage and when you think it's more important to get that interrupt off. So i do think staff mirage, and to an extent scepter is a problem. I don't see other weapons as being problematic. For one, sword clones all run into melee before attack, thus dying before they really do anything. And two, I don't want my playstyle affected because of condi staff users.

@BadMed.3846 said:I do specifically see scepter / pistol and staff Condi mirage spec being the problem. Interrupts followed with bleeds and finally the ability to run off at will, only to get back soon after to unload again.

LoL yet you want to nerf/ delete a trait will affect all weapons/ playstyles even the active and high skillceiling power interrupt playstyle not overperforming at all? A playstyle/weapon you don't even see as an issue yourself? Yes makes sense. Shows how much you know and understand and thought about the class you complain about.Let's just stop there as the rest of the post above is simply a meaningless wall of text and accusational ............ (fill whatever wall of text you like to here).

First of all, do you even know what Condi Mirage spec I'm talking about? If not, have a look here:

https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/mesmer

I'm sure, sooner or later, you will realise that Infinite Horizon is utilised by this build. Honestly, I don't care about what impact a nerf has on other specs. That's not for me to look into. You may post your suggestions freely and noone is stopping you. So will I.

So what does IH even do? Well, straight from the WiKi:

The sharing of Mirage Cloak Mirage Cloak forces all active clones (not phantasms) to use their respective Ambush skill since clones share your auto-attack skill.

So, how does it impact Scepter? Well:

Launch a barrage of chaos orbs at your foe, inflicting either confusion or torment each hit. Condition duration halved for clones.

Looking at in isolation, you'd argue - so what? Well, couple this with Mirage's Mirage Cloak then. Every time you dodge you get a 2s window for:

Launch a barrage of chaos orbs at your foe, inflicting either confusion or torment each hit. Condition duration halved for clones.

With Speed of Sand, Blink and other escape mechanics, which Mesmers have access to due to good reasons and design choices, things get worse and out of control in terms of their potential to inflict stacks of conditions within a really short period of time. Coupled with that, there's tons of protection offered by Chaotic Dampening and Mirage Mantle. And if you manage to stack conditions on them, Arcane Thievery comes into play to EASILY transfer 3 conditions back, steal 3 boons - wait....and also slow the enemy down and give you quickness. All this at 1200 range and guess what, Unblockable too!

Now if all fails, you still have signet of midnight to get a short stealth and blind up to 5 enemies. Well, take a stunbreak too - its all freebies, why not.

Let's also add on top of this Duelist's Discipline to recharge pistol skills (25%) on interrupt (really easy to land) and give active illusions a 100% chance to cause bleeding. Evasive Mirror allows you to get 2s projectile reflects with every successful evasion.

So, what is condi mirage doing?Landing conditions, avoiding physical damange, evading & reflecting and finally getting out of harm's with with minimal effort. Few seconds later, its back to rinse and repeat.

Now, I'm going to leave Chaos Vortex up to your imagination!

C'mon, let's get over this joke spec!

Holy kitten i give up. So your only argument is that one build you complain about use that trait and that is reason enough for you to ask for nerfs to that trait, during that you even admit that you don't care what affects this will have on the class as a whole/ on other builds. You admit that you are not able to look at the bigger picture so you are able to see that nothing what you complain about actually is rly caused by IH itself, and that is is possible to nerf/ rework this build to your satisfaction without killing/ dumb down the whole spec/ other builds, that it is possible without even touching IH. As you say yourself, you simply don't care about the bigger picture. You are obviously biased. Case closed.

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

For the record, I do think his proposed ICD on infinite horizon is fair. 20 sec may be too long, but it's not a bad idea. And that wouldn't affect me honestly since I actually run the Dune Cloak 99.99% of the time. the other 0.01% of the time I may use infinite horizon or Elusive Mind if i'm in a 1v1 tourney.

It is fine when you personally don't care about an ICD because you barely use the trait but balance suggestions should not be based on if you use something or not. Following that logic i don't need to care for any Mesmer related stuff because as a multiclass player i can just play another class or i can be even more happy to be carried by Condimirage when it needs even less skill and not more. An ICD on a dodge trait makes no sense and also that got explained already several times not only by me. Feel free to search and read these posts explaining it if you are interested in understanding stuff outside of the traits you use and care about. Do you play other classes? Could you imagine to put an ICD on Engis or Warriors dodge trait and give it further requirements to work (like a Warrrior needs to have at least 2 adrenalin bars up or a Holo needs to be in overhead for the dmg trait to work?). How would it be possible to work with that trait active as a player? It is not active at all anymore, it would become even more passive because every active use is burried under an ICD every time the player needs to dodge for defensive purpose only or burried under further restrictions.. But i am already repeating myself. As said if you are interested you find at least my post easy in this thread explaining this step by step in the most easy way i am able to.

I'm just not paid to care about traits that I don't use and things that don't affect me. I don't work for anet. I'm not on the balance team. That's just how it is. So yes, I don't care at all about nerfs to Infinite Horizon because I rarely use it, but I encounter it often in pvp from staff/scepter users. So if it gets an ICD, i think that's fair and the change won't do collateral damage to my build.

But it would do collateral dmg to other builds not using staff or scepter but using IH. As said it is fine when you say you personally don't care because you don't use the trait, then Anet can just skip your post as not relevant for the discussion. Because that builds not use IH do not suffer when it even gets deleted is obvious. It is a difference than saying there is objectively no problem with ICD on IH in general, there is just no problem for ICD on IH on individuell builds NOT USING IH. But i look more on the bigger picture means looking at all possible builds and if they get more skillful or less when you have an ICD on IH. And the answer is clearly less skillful, less active with ICD on IH.

All of my posts are relevant. Anet will decide for themselves what's important for their internal discussions, as they have always done.

[bravan.3876]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:because you mention sword builds, i just wanted to point out that it's not random ambushes and dodges. I run sword only and have always since launch, i can tell you that it's true that sword mirage are great at interrupts. But interrupts take keen eyes, planning, timing, and balancing that between when you actually want to avoid damage and when you think it's more important to get that interrupt off. So i do think staff mirage, and to an extent scepter is a problem. I don't see other weapons as being problematic. For one, sword clones all run into melee before attack, thus dying before they really do anything. And two, I don't want my playstyle affected because of condi staff users.

@BadMed.3846 said:I do specifically see scepter / pistol and staff Condi mirage spec being the problem. Interrupts followed with bleeds and finally the ability to run off at will, only to get back soon after to unload again.

LoL yet you want to nerf/ delete a trait will affect all weapons/ playstyles even the active and high skillceiling power interrupt playstyle not overperforming at all? A playstyle/weapon you don't even see as an issue yourself? Yes makes sense. Shows how much you know and understand and thought about the class you complain about.Let's just stop there as the rest of the post above is simply a meaningless wall of text and accusational ............ (fill whatever wall of text you like to here).

First of all, do you even know what Condi Mirage spec I'm talking about? If not, have a look here:

https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/mesmer

I'm sure, sooner or later, you will realise that Infinite Horizon is utilised by this build. Honestly, I don't care about what impact a nerf has on other specs. That's not for me to look into. You may post your suggestions freely and noone is stopping you. So will I.

So what does IH even do? Well, straight from the WiKi:

The sharing of Mirage Cloak Mirage Cloak forces all active clones (not phantasms) to use their respective Ambush skill since clones share your auto-attack skill.

So, how does it impact Scepter? Well:

Launch a barrage of chaos orbs at your foe, inflicting either confusion or torment each hit. Condition duration halved for clones.

Looking at in isolation, you'd argue - so what? Well, couple this with Mirage's Mirage Cloak then. Every time you dodge you get a 2s window for:

Launch a barrage of chaos orbs at your foe, inflicting either confusion or torment each hit. Condition duration halved for clones.

With Speed of Sand, Blink and other escape mechanics, which Mesmers have access to due to good reasons and design choices, things get worse and out of control in terms of their potential to inflict stacks of conditions within a really short period of time. Coupled with that, there's tons of protection offered by Chaotic Dampening and Mirage Mantle. And if you manage to stack conditions on them, Arcane Thievery comes into play to EASILY transfer 3 conditions back, steal 3 boons - wait....and also slow the enemy down and give you quickness. All this at 1200 range and guess what, Unblockable too!

Now if all fails, you still have signet of midnight to get a short stealth and blind up to 5 enemies. Well, take a stunbreak too - its all freebies, why not.

Let's also add on top of this Duelist's Discipline to recharge pistol skills (25%) on interrupt (really easy to land) and give active illusions a 100% chance to cause bleeding. Evasive Mirror allows you to get 2s projectile reflects with every successful evasion.

So, what is condi mirage doing?Landing conditions, avoiding physical damange, evading & reflecting and finally getting out of harm's with with minimal effort. Few seconds later, its back to rinse and repeat.

Now, I'm going to leave Chaos Vortex up to your imagination!

C'mon, let's get over this joke spec!

Holy kitten i give up. So your only argument is that one build you complain about use that trait and that is reason enough for you to ask for nerfs to that trait, during that you even admit that you don't care what affects this will have on the class as a whole/ on other builds. You admit that you are not able to look at the bigger picture so you are able to see that nothing what you complain about actually is rly caused by IH itself, and that is is possible to nerf/ rework this build to your satisfaction without killing/ dumb down the whole spec/ other builds, that it is possible without even touching IH. As you say yourself, you simply don't care about the bigger picture. You are obviously biased. Case closed.

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

For the record, I do think his proposed ICD on infinite horizon is fair. 20 sec may be too long, but it's not a bad idea. And that wouldn't affect me honestly since I actually run the Dune Cloak 99.99% of the time. the other 0.01% of the time I may use infinite horizon or Elusive Mind if i'm in a 1v1 tourney.

It is fine when you personally don't care about an ICD because you barely use the trait but balance suggestions should not be based on if you use something or not. Following that logic i don't need to care for any Mesmer related stuff because as a multiclass player i can just play another class or i can be even more happy to be carried by Condimirage when it needs even less skill and not more. An ICD on a dodge trait makes no sense and also that got explained already several times not only by me. Feel free to search and read these posts explaining it if you are interested in understanding stuff outside of the traits you use and care about. Do you play other classes? Could you imagine to put an ICD on Engis or Warriors dodge trait and give it further requirements to work (like a Warrrior needs to have at least 2 adrenalin bars up or a Holo needs to be in overhead for the dmg trait to work?). How would it be possible to work with that trait active as a player? It is not active at all anymore, it would become even more passive because every active use is burried under an ICD every time the player needs to dodge for defensive purpose only or burried under further restrictions.. But i am already repeating myself. As said if you are interested you find at least my post easy in this thread explaining this step by step in the most easy way i am able to.

I'm just not paid to care about traits that I don't use and things that don't affect me. I don't work for anet. I'm not on the balance team. That's just how it is. So yes, I don't care at all about nerfs to Infinite Horizon because I rarely use it, but I encounter it often in pvp from staff/scepter users. So if it gets an ICD, i think that's fair and the change won't do collateral damage to my build.

But it would do collateral dmg to other builds not using staff or scepter but using IH. As said it is fine when you say you personally don't care because you don't use the trait, then Anet can just skip your post as not relevant for the discussion. Because that builds not use IH do not suffer when it even gets deleted is obvious. It is a difference than saying there is objectively no problem with ICD on IH in general, there is just no problem for ICD on IH on individuell builds NOT USING IH. But i look more on the bigger picture means looking at all possible builds and if they get more skillful or less when you have an ICD on IH. And the answer is clearly less skillful, less active with ICD on IH.

All of my posts are relevant. Anet will decide for themselves what's important for their internal discussions, as they have always done.

Yes ofc they are relevant for you and you have the right to say your subjective opinion, i just assumed based on logic what will happen with your post. I think it will be skipped because that players not using IH will have no problems with it getting nerfed is obvious and not adding any new and for that helpful informations. That ppl are subjectively focused on the build/class they are using and don't care for anything else is also pretty normal. I just have higher requirements on the objectivity and allround view (overview perspective) from my balance suggestions but that is maybe also only based on me being multiclass player. So i literally care for everything and try to see the bigger picture (try to... not always successful but at least i try).

I also know that i cannot request that from everyone here but at least i can request that ppl are able to explain their claims, that they have arguments otherwise they don't need to expect me to respect that claim as valuable and constructive (not talking about you here).

[viquing.8254]

@"ZDragon.3046" said:ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

End statement.

Strangely, people who want IH nerfed or changed didn't play mirage :p .Mean how can you understand something if you never play it.

@"BadMed.3846" said:looking at the big picture of where Mirage is and how ridiculously broken it is in its current stateWhich big picture are you talking about ?Can you detail more this point please because last time a mesmer win a EU mAt is faraway and looking at EU leaderboard, there isn't pink fashion everywhere since many patch now.So where is the mesmer big picture highlighting mesmer opness and broken class ? (and farming bronze pleb isn't what I call a "big picture".)

[ZDragon.3046]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

End statement.

Strangely, people who want IH nerfed or changed didn't play mirage :p .Mean how can you understand something if you never play it.

Well first off you dont know who plays what and who doesnt unless they admit that they do or do not play something to you and you hope they didnt lie.Unless you can break into their account or something you have no way of knowing this information but lets assume you are correct.

Assuming you are correct the same thing still applies to other professionsPeople who want stealth nerfs dont play thiefPeople who want plasma nerfs dont play thief and rangerPeople who want fear and chill nerfs dont play necroPeople who want burn nerfs dont play weaver...do you see the pattern here.

Mirage is not a special case. Wont be the first time wont be the last.

In fact this is pretty common in most games that can be taken in any kind of competitive form even the ones that are not meant to be super competitive.One side might say the other is not balanced purely because they play against that side and find it too advantageous to commonly play around on the flip side the side that people complain about might find something on the opposing side even thought they don't play as that side that they also consider too advantageous or unfair.

It wouldnt be balanced if only the side that played that one thing dictated what should be buffed and nerfed with that side or in this case in that profession. Yes its nice to have people who honestly care and want things to be fair but we must admit that many ideas that people think in their own heads would be fair are quite unfair and you dont see them that way till someone from outside the box points it out to you.

[BadMed.3846]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

End statement.

Strangely, people who want IH nerfed or changed didn't play mirage :p .Mean how can you understand something if you never play it.

@"BadMed.3846" said:looking at the big picture of where Mirage is and how ridiculously broken it is in its current stateWhich big picture are you talking about ?Can you detail more this point please because last time a mesmer win a EU mAt is faraway and looking at EU leaderboard, there isn't pink fashion everywhere since many patch now.So where is the mesmer big picture highlighting mesmer opness and broken class ? (and farming bronze pleb isn't what I call a "big picture".)

Scroll back and read. Stop individually calling out for details when relevant information is already there.

[Hot Boy.7138]

when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

i said it before and i shall say it again, IH should be baseline. Its condi damage should be nerfed by ¬¬70%, daze from sword clones should be removed. and there should be other buffs that should follow, like torment on shatter buffed, confusion on blind and that shitty confusion on ambush trait that is utter garbage.

also all clone ambushes should deal some damage, 200-400 on each is not too much to ask for. same damage for condi would be healthy. along with buffed other traits this would provide okish sustain damage for spec that was supposed to be sustain, while still being focused on interactive shatter playstyle of weaving in and out of melee range.Fixing axe could follow too.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Hot Boy.7138 said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:throws gs 3 at warrior, critical hit! 908 damage.warrior throws axe, critical hit! 5670 damage.Internal sceam!

mutters something just out of earshot about mind stab having a higher base damage than throw axe when enemy is > 50% hp.

@"Fleckzeck.4673" said:All changes want to lower the clone-production or the damage the clones do, to lower the preasure from "Infinit Horizon".

Okay but-

My suggestions is the following:

• Give "Infinit Horizon" an ICD of 20 sec in PvP+WvW only

That's too much. We want it balanced, not dead. Clones are fragile and easily dispatched, and gating their burst windows every 20 seconds, forcing them to ramp clones before they even get access to damage is a no-go. IH is a problem but let's not smiters boon it.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:

2. Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.
3. Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.
4. Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

If 3 and 4 are true, those need to be addressed. I don't know about 2, because at no point does lack of diversity of playstyle justify an overpowered one. Their condi output is still high with the now surfaced playstyle, so that needs to be addressed in its entirety before additional condition damage is returned.

1. The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.

This is of note. I am fine with EM exhaustion being shaved if the IH problem gets fixed, if pushing the ability to evade at all while stunned to EM with far less exhaustion to make IH the bursty, but more volatile option is out of the question.

@"BadMed.3846" said:Scroll back and read. Stop individually calling out for details when relevant information is already there.

Also of note. If someone provides the proof you need and your response is to "go back and look again, then spoon feed me the information again" you're not engaging, you're distracting.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

the sad cmirage playstyle, 3clone f2 shatter in melee range applies 4 stacks of confusion, LOL.1-2 clone auto are worth more, the only time cmirage actually shatters is when they are out of combat to have boons during combat, or after they used other shatter ( f3 for must daze, or f4 ) again, to get boons. becouse lets not kid ourselfs, f1 and f2 deals trash dmg on cmes.

[viquing.8254]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

End statement.

Strangely, people who want IH nerfed or changed didn't play mirage :p .Mean how can you understand something if you never play it.

Well first off you dont know who plays what and who doesnt unless they admit that they do or do not play something to you and you hope they didnt lie.Unless you can break into their account or something you have no way of knowing this information but lets assume you are correct.

Assuming you are correct the same thing still applies to other professionsPeople who want stealth nerfs dont play thiefPeople who want plasma nerfs dont play thief and rangerPeople who want fear and chill nerfs dont play necroPeople who want burn nerfs dont play weaver...do you see the pattern here.

Mirage is not a special case. Wont be the first time wont be the last.

In fact this is pretty common in most games that can be taken in any kind of competitive form even the ones that are not meant to be super competitive.One side might say the other is not balanced purely because they play against that side and find it too advantageous to commonly play around on the flip side the side that people complain about might find something on the opposing side even thought they don't play as that side that they also consider too advantageous or unfair.

It wouldnt be balanced if only the side that played that one thing dictated what should be buffed and nerfed with that side or in this case in that profession. Yes its nice to have people who honestly care and want things to be fair but we must admit that many ideas that people think in their own heads would be fair are quite unfair and you dont see them that way till someone from outside the box points it out to you.

You are right, that's why I didn't ask for other class nerf as I didn't know well their mecanics. Which isn't the case for many "rework" (nerf) mesmers suggestions.

@BadMed.3846 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

End statement.

Strangely, people who want IH nerfed or changed didn't play mirage :p .Mean how can you understand something if you never play it.

@BadMed.3846 said:looking at the big picture of where Mirage is and how ridiculously broken it is in its current stateWhich big picture are you talking about ?Can you detail more this point please because last time a mesmer win a EU mAt is faraway and looking at EU leaderboard, there isn't pink fashion everywhere since many patch now.So where is the mesmer big picture highlighting mesmer opness and broken class ? (and farming bronze pleb isn't what I call a "big picture".)

Scroll back and read. Stop individually calling out for details when relevant information is already there.

Sorry, I didn't find the relevant informations who detail the mesmer "big picture" can you quote it please ?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 about axe vs mind stab.its becouse warrior has better toughtness, perma 25might, bonu power on might, many damage bonuses like peak performance, tether.meanwhile power mes doesnt get more then 5-10 might, and sup complex along with vulnerability as only bonuses, its not powers being better, its might + % dmg traits working together to make such derastic changes.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Azure The Heartless.3261 about axe vs mind stab.its becouse warrior has better toughtness, perma 25might, bonu power on might, many damage bonuses like peak performance, tether.meanwhile power mes doesnt get more then 5-10 might, and sup complex along with vulnerability as only bonuses, its not powers being better, its might + % dmg traits working together to make such derastic changes.

I'm just messing with you, I get what you meant. I don't have a problem with power mes.

[bravan.3876]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

i said it before and i shall say it again, IH should be baseline. Its condi damage should be nerfed by ¬¬70%, daze from sword clones should be removed. and there should be other buffs that should follow, like torment on shatter buffed, confusion on blind and that kitten confusion on ambush trait that is utter garbage.

also all clone ambushes should deal some damage, 200-400 on each is not too much to ask for. same damage for condi would be healthy. along with buffed other traits this would provide okish sustain damage for spec that was supposed to be sustain, while still being focused on interactive shatter playstyle of weaving in and out of melee range.Fixing axe could follow too.

Just wondering, what is sword clone ambush supposed to do in your view when you delete the insane 1/4 sec daze on a slow, well animated and easy to avoid leap animation? The dmg sword clone ambush does is nearly zero and it doesn't do anything else. Also sword ambsuh is the best and most active designed ambush with the daze effect instead just high dmg in my view. Because the daze for mindful, timed interrupts is something a player can active use to outplay opponents, it is a way better design then only pure dmg. Sword clone ambush is how all ambushes should be designed: More about effects/ utility the player can use to active outplay opponents then only pure dmg.

@BadMed.3846 said:

Scroll back and read. Stop individually calling out for details when relevant information is already there.

Still waiting for your or @"ZDragon.3046" arguments to get listed or at least (when you have no own arguments) the quote of the arguments from other ppl your claims are related to. Neither in this thread nor in any other thread in the whole forum i could find any explanations, reasoning or a single argument listed from a single poster asking for IH nerfs. Just claiming something and not proving anything is not how constructive converstions are done. And you even do that twice, you claim IH i op and needs nerfs without explaining and you claim that the arguments are written somewhere already in the forum without being able to quote a single one. Where are the relevant informations about WHY IH needs nerfs and about WHY my arguments are wrong? All i could find are unexplained claimes and nerf requests. If you can't do either of it, then pls stop repeating "IH is the or an issue" like a broken record. This turns the forum into nothing more than a gossip factory.

Also still waiting for the quote af the Anet dev/employee post where he is asking for and explaining IH nerf suggestions you said exist anywhere (what i highly doubt, every single nerf request for IH was from players only).

[BadMed.3846]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

i said it before and i shall say it again, IH should be baseline. Its condi damage should be nerfed by ¬¬70%, daze from sword clones should be removed. and there should be other buffs that should follow, like torment on shatter buffed, confusion on blind and that kitten confusion on ambush trait that is utter garbage.

also all clone ambushes should deal some damage, 200-400 on each is not too much to ask for. same damage for condi would be healthy. along with buffed other traits this would provide okish sustain damage for spec that was supposed to be sustain, while still being focused on interactive shatter playstyle of weaving in and out of melee range.Fixing axe could follow too.

Just wondering, what is sword clone ambush supposed to do in your view when you delete the insane 1/4 sec daze on a slow, well animated and easy to avoid leap animation? The dmg sword clone ambush does is nearly zero and it doesn't do anything else. Also sword ambsuh is the best and most active designed ambush with the daze effect instead just high dmg in my view. Because the daze for mindful, timed interrupts is something a player can active use to outplay opponents, it is a way better design then only pure dmg. Sword clone ambush is how all ambushes should be designed: More about effects/ utility the player can use to active outplay opponents then only pure dmg.

@BadMed.3846 said:

Scroll back and read. Stop individually calling out for details when relevant information is already there.

Still waiting for your or @"ZDragon.3046" arguments to get listed or at least (when you have no own arguments) the quote of the arguments from other ppl your claims are related to. Neither in this thread nor in any other thread in the whole forum i could find any explanations, reasoning or a single argument listed from a single poster asking for IH nerfs. Just claiming something and not proving anything is not how constructive converstions are done. And you even do that twice, you claim IH i op and needs nerfs without explaining and you claim that the arguments are written somewhere already in the forum without being able to quote a single one. Where are the relevant informations about WHY IH needs nerfs and about WHY my arguments are wrong? All i could find are unexplained claimes and nerf requests. If you can't do either of it, then pls stop repeating "IH is the or an issue" like a broken record. This turns the forum into nothing more than a gossip factory.

Also still waiting for the quote af the Anet dev/employee post where he is asking for and explaining IH nerf suggestions you said exist anywhere (what i highly doubt, every single nerf request for IH was from players only).

You need to make up your mind. I thought you moved on and didn't need anything from us. But, if you do need information, try going back and reading all over again. If you have other specific questions, then we're not getting paid to answer them. Don't forget what I said at the start, this is a forum and we're sharing opinions. They may differ and it's ok. You need to learn to move on.