Core Power Mesmer Is Nasty Toxic Nonesense

viquing.8254 · December 28, 2019

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth is ok.A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth commenced far out of reasonable sight and earshot is not.
Like @Odik.4587 said, do something about PU at least.

What about looking about damage modifiers as I suggered before touching a trait who wasn't used much thoses past years ?Mean as always in a mesmer discussion, everyone came here with no clue about the spec to whine about nerf who are decorelate to their main issue. Which will just lead to another whine post and 1 more dead trait...

viquing.8254 · December 28, 2019

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth is ok.A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth commenced far out of reasonable sight and earshot is not.
Like @Odik.4587 said, do something about PU at least.

one more dead trait \o/

Not if they replace it with something actually healthy and useful. Wishful thinking, I know.

Like they did with the last 5 gameplay defining traits they nerf =) =) =) .Wishful thinkinh yeah.

viquing.8254 · December 28, 2019

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So a lot of people are playing not just core mes power, but also power mirage in conjunction with PU. As always with time, people are getting better on this build structure and are figuring out things that weren't so prevalent to see in play even 2 or 3 weeks ago. This has gone beyond general stealth bursting. Let me explain the kind of sheer tactful pressure that this build is able to create by doing nothing other than going into stealth:
I engage some power Mesmer build. He doesn't even sneak up on me or anything. No, we just straight up engage In combat.
Mesmer is saving his stealth CDs for what is by far the most powerful defensive CD baiting technique in the game.
After he has already engaged you for as long as he reasonably can without it being a danger to himself, and after he's already baited you out of some defensive and/or heal utility, he suddenly goes stealth. This is not a normal stealth routine. This is a stealth that could be anywhere from 3s to 15s.
Everyone knows the Mesmer is going to try and come back out of a stealth with big damage, but when the stealth lasts for an abnormally long amount of time, you realize the Mesmer is screwing with you. With the normal shorter single stealths, it becomes intuitive to know when to dodge roll or block, when you can feel that usual timer coming around when the mes is going to try and land his burst. But when that stealth can last anywhere from 3s to 15s, this becomes abusive. What the Mesmer is doing is, putting you in this situation where you know he is still near you and could land a burst at any time. So then you have to begin burning defensive CDs during this 3 to 15 seconds, to make sure you aren't randomly 1HKO during this time frame. And no, you can't just stand there and NOT use defensive CDs/Dodge rolls. If the Mesmer is actually good at landing accurate shatter combos, getting caught for a split second will render him enough time to instantly downstate you. So what's happening here is the Mesmer is purposely baiting your CDs because you have to use them. In many cases the player defending will also begin moving around trying to kite to odd places, which pushes them off nodes. Best case scenario is if an excellent player tries to save all defensive CDs, and just stops and stands still, and waits for the burst to hit so he can zen like react to the first pixel of animation he sees on his screen. If you were an excellent player, this could either work, or completely fail if you were to receive even a small +50 ping spike during the time frame that the Mesmer went in for burst. Remember, I am talking about good mesmers, not mediocre ones.
The other thing that the Mesmer can do is approach you or leave the fight, to initiate the above effect ^ to bait CDs, but never actually show up to engage you. When a Mesmer has established himself as dangerous in the match, people need but only to see that Mesmer approaching a node and then go stealth, or go stealth mid-engagement, and then they start burning defensive CDs & dodge rolls & kiting around like bailing up skyhammer jump pads. I was duo queuing with a buddy on power mes and we were abusing this tactic. We were calling this the: "stealth pressure front - double back." There are a couple ways to abuse this as a duo queue. 1) Both of us begin to approach a node against a 2v2 let's say. He does a long self stealth and doubles back to the previous node that we were at, where players are no longer expecting him to be. This creates an illusion of pressure for me. Now the 2 opponents on the node are not so freely ganking me as I approach, because they think there is a dangerous 1HKO power Mesmer near them that is stealthed. Due to the now ranging 3s to 15s of potential stealth uptime, this grants a rather large time frame for me as a DPS oriented class/build, to be able to attack the 2 players while they are attempting to take defensive stature due to the front of Mesmer pressure. this often leads to being able to win 1v2s actually. You can at least kill 1 player quickly, and then engage the other normally, or sometimes 1 of the players will run. Of course this is a strong technique because whenever 1 player can win vs. 2, the rest of his team is being granted 4v3 elsewhere on the map. 2) We do the double back together instead of splitting. Say there is an outnumbered situation at mid, we are 3v4. We both jump off mid and make it look like we are bailing to push far, but then he stealths us and we double back into the mid node for 1HKO action. This actually does 2x things. The first is that it creates a pressure front for any of our team mates who may be pushing the far node or who may already be there. This alleviates a lot of significant focus from our team member who is going to or who is at far. Now any opponents at the far node, think a dangerous Soulbeast DPS and Power Mesmer 1HKO duo are about to show up. In most cases, the opponent at the far node will just leave immediately. This at the least provides a decap for our team and time for our team mate to reset defensive CDs, even if the opponent wisens up quickly and comes back to reengage our team mate. The second thing this does is obvious, which is us sneaking back into the mid node to drop a coordinated Power Shatter/Berserker Soulbeast AoE death bomb.
This build is doing a lot more than what most people realize. This isn't simply an issue with game/skill mechanics or anything attribute tied. What we're talking about here is capable of a lot more than that when utilized by great players. Wise players can exploit this build to apply the pressure of their presence, to places that they aren't even at. Actually, due to Mass Invisibility, they can allow several team mates to create pressure fronts. Which again, these kinds of tactics result in like instant decaps because some opponent defending his home, believes a DPS or two is about to show up and + him, so he leaves to kite, when it truth those DPS just stayed at the mid node and faked him out for a decap without spending rotation time to do it. Then of course this opens the stealth gank opportunity at that mid node, where the opponents think the Mesmer actually left.
Is this ok? A build that has so much elongated frequent stealth, with by far the most lethal burst from stealth, to the point that the thought of: "It might be approaching me" controls your rotations? I dunno, it's too much edgy psychological stealth play going on imo. Stealth play is great, to an extent. But I remember a time when Thieves & Mesmers used stealth offense to get a lead in damage on you not to 1HKO you, and their stealth presence wasn't dangerous to the point that people evacuated a node as if a nuclear weapon were about to land, as soon as they seen a stealth skill initiate.
There is too much psychological tact power in even just the "threat" of this build's presence. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I'm sure some people are wanting to tell me: "Just pay attention to where the Mesmer is at! Use map awareness!" That is such a cop out blanket statement for the techniques that I just explained how to do in this thread. The truth is this:
You can't know where the Mesmer is at until it attempts to burst you, due to juking & faking techniques such as the stealth pressure front - double back. Such techniques are greatly empowered in this current patching due to the inordinately frequent & elongated stealthing that the Mesmer possesses.
I shouldn't have to dedicate 100% of my focus to where the Mesmer is on my mini map and on the screen, when there are 4 other opponents that I am facing, and 4 other team mates that I need to be watching as well. That's too much pressure for tact that the class/build has. To put this into perspective, I have to keep my eyes on Clown or Acani as Deadeyes, less than half as much in a match, as I would a random slightly above bell curve power Mesmer. That's actually just messed up to be able to say that in truth.

The main issue isn't the stealth amount who basically didn't change since HoT beginning rework (apart the MI cd shortening.) but about the addition of modifiers as I explained in this thread. Combined with the new mobility master of manipulation provide.Now I already explained why master of manipulation is good as it can make core build viable and why the solution should be looking on damage modifier cumulation and trait combo who can already be solved with just few trait moving to make them compete and not cumuling.

Trevor Boyer.6524 · December 29, 2019

@viquing.8254 said:
@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So a lot of people are playing not just core mes power, but also power mirage in conjunction with PU. As always with time, people are getting better on this build structure and are figuring out things that weren't so prevalent to see in play even 2 or 3 weeks ago. This has gone beyond general stealth bursting. Let me explain the kind of sheer tactful pressure that this build is able to create by doing nothing other than going into stealth:
I engage some power Mesmer build. He doesn't even sneak up on me or anything. No, we just straight up engage In combat.
Mesmer is saving his stealth CDs for what is by far the most powerful defensive CD baiting technique in the game.
After he has already engaged you for as long as he reasonably can without it being a danger to himself, and after he's already baited you out of some defensive and/or heal utility, he suddenly goes stealth. This is not a normal stealth routine. This is a stealth that could be anywhere from 3s to 15s.
Everyone knows the Mesmer is going to try and come back out of a stealth with big damage, but when the stealth lasts for an abnormally long amount of time, you realize the Mesmer is screwing with you. With the normal shorter single stealths, it becomes intuitive to know when to dodge roll or block, when you can feel that usual timer coming around when the mes is going to try and land his burst. But when that stealth can last anywhere from 3s to 15s, this becomes abusive. What the Mesmer is doing is, putting you in this situation where you
know
he is still near you and could land a burst at any time. So then you have to begin burning defensive CDs during this 3 to 15 seconds, to make sure you aren't randomly 1HKO during this time frame. And no, you can't just stand there and NOT use defensive CDs/Dodge rolls. If the Mesmer is actually good at landing accurate shatter combos, getting caught for a split second will render him enough time to instantly downstate you. So what's happening here is the Mesmer is purposely baiting your CDs because you have to use them. In many cases the player defending will also begin moving around trying to kite to odd places, which pushes them off nodes. Best case scenario is if an excellent player tries to save all defensive CDs, and just stops and stands still, and waits for the burst to hit so he can zen like react to the first pixel of animation he sees on his screen. If you were an excellent player, this could either work, or completely fail if you were to receive even a small +50 ping spike during the time frame that the Mesmer went in for burst. Remember, I am talking about good mesmers, not mediocre ones.
The other thing that the Mesmer can do is approach you or leave the fight, to initiate the above effect ^ to bait CDs, but never actually show up to engage you. When a Mesmer has established himself as dangerous in the match, people need but only to see that Mesmer approaching a node and then go stealth, or go stealth mid-engagement, and then they start burning defensive CDs & dodge rolls & kiting around like bailing up skyhammer jump pads. I was duo queuing with a buddy on power mes and we were abusing this tactic. We were calling this the:
"stealth pressure front - double back."
There are a couple ways to abuse this as a duo queue. 1) Both of us begin to approach a node against a 2v2 let's say. He does a long self stealth and doubles back to the previous node that we were at, where players are no longer expecting him to be. This creates an illusion of pressure for me. Now the 2 opponents on the node are not so freely ganking me as I approach, because they think there is a dangerous 1HKO power Mesmer near them that is stealthed. Due to the now ranging 3s to 15s of potential stealth uptime, this grants a rather large time frame for me as a DPS oriented class/build, to be able to attack the 2 players while they are attempting to take defensive stature due to the front of Mesmer pressure. this often leads to being able to win 1v2s actually. You can at least kill 1 player quickly, and then engage the other normally, or sometimes 1 of the players will run. Of course this is a strong technique because whenever 1 player can win vs. 2, the rest of his team is being granted 4v3 elsewhere on the map. 2) We do the double back together instead of splitting. Say there is an outnumbered situation at mid, we are 3v4. We both jump off mid and make it look like we are bailing to push far, but then he stealths us and we double back into the mid node for 1HKO action. This actually does 2x things. The first is that it creates a pressure front for any of our team mates who may be pushing the far node or who may already be there. This alleviates a lot of significant focus from our team member who is going to or who is at far. Now any opponents at the far node, think a dangerous Soulbeast DPS and Power Mesmer 1HKO duo are about to show up. In most cases, the opponent at the far node will just leave immediately.
This at the least provides a decap for our team and time for our team mate to reset defensive CDs
, even if the opponent wisens up quickly and comes back to reengage our team mate. The second thing this does is obvious, which is us sneaking back into the mid node to drop a coordinated Power Shatter/Berserker Soulbeast AoE death bomb.
This build is doing a lot more than what most people realize. This isn't simply an issue with game/skill mechanics or anything attribute tied. What we're talking about here is capable of a lot more than that when utilized by great players. Wise players can exploit this build to apply the pressure of their presence, to places that they aren't even at. Actually, due to Mass Invisibility, they can allow several team mates to create pressure fronts.
Which again, these kinds of tactics result in like instant decaps because some opponent defending his home, believes a DPS or two is about to show up and + him, so he leaves to kite, when it truth those DPS just stayed at the mid node and faked him out for a decap without spending rotation time to do it. Then of course this opens the stealth gank opportunity at that mid node, where the opponents think the Mesmer actually left.
Is this ok? A build that has so much elongated frequent stealth, with by far the most lethal burst from stealth, to the point that the thought of: "It might be approaching me" controls your rotations? I dunno, it's too much edgy psychological stealth play going on imo. Stealth play is great, to an extent. But I remember a time when Thieves & Mesmers used stealth offense to get a lead in damage on you not to 1HKO you, and their stealth presence wasn't dangerous to the point that people evacuated a node as if a nuclear weapon were about to land, as soon as they seen a stealth skill initiate.
There is too much psychological tact power in even just the "threat" of this build's presence. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I'm sure some people are wanting to tell me: "Just pay attention to where the Mesmer is at! Use map awareness!" That is such a cop out blanket statement for the techniques that I just explained how to do in this thread. The truth is this:
You can't know where the Mesmer is at until it attempts to burst you, due to juking & faking techniques such as the stealth pressure front - double back. Such techniques are greatly empowered in this current patching due to the inordinately frequent & elongated stealthing that the Mesmer possesses.
I shouldn't have to dedicate 100% of my focus to where the Mesmer is on my mini map and on the screen, when there are 4 other opponents that I am facing, and 4 other team mates that I need to be watching as well. That's too much pressure for tact that the class/build has. To put this into perspective, I have to keep my eyes on Clown or Acani as Deadeyes, less than half as much in a match, as I would a random slightly above bell curve power Mesmer. That's actually just messed up to be able to say that in truth.

The main issue isn't the stealth amount who basically didn't change since HoT beginning rework (apart the MI cd shortening.) but about the addition of modifiers as I explained in this thread. Combined with the new mobility master of manipulation provide.Now I already explained why master of manipulation is good as it can make core build viable and why the solution should be looking on damage modifier cumulation and trait combo who can already be solved with just few trait moving to make them compete and not cumuling.

I don't care when or how it happened. The problem is how it is right now. Choosing what to nerf or not nerf really has nothing to do with "how" or "when" a series of patches occurred. When we nerf something, we don't necessarily have to "revert" changes. It may often be healthier to tweak in an area that has never been touched before. I don't care how it is done, I just want to see the stealth application be more sparse & less elongated. It's just too much. It's funking up the feel of the game. I don't know how many times I have to say this: "I'm not saying it is OP" I am saying that it's too much stealth play. The game is turning into "Alien vs. Predator Stealth Cloak Camo Wars 2" and it just doesn't feel good man. Literally half the classes in this game have random access to large amounts of stealth for absolutely no reason. There is so much stealth access actually, that it is almost always convenient for a non stealth focused build to still have at least a single skill that grants stealth:

Order of stealth heavy classes, 1 being the heaviest:

Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage - PU has allowed this to go above & beyond even Thief in practical stealth application. One could argue methods that a Thief could technically front more stealth than a Mesmer, but it wouldn't be practical to run on any build structure. Mesmer on the other hand, can bring forth an enormous amount of self and party stealthing that is easy to apply, while still running powerful build structures.
Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye - Clearly 2nd place for reasons that I shouldn't have to explain. DE being the most, Core Thief after, and then Daredevil last which usually lately, opts into being more of a brawler than a Thief, but can still load in plenty of stealth if it needs it, and stay on a relevant build structure.
All Rangers & All Engis - Rangers have more self stealth access, Engis have more party AoE stealth access. Tied for 3rd place imo.
Dragonhunter - It can use Rune of Trapper if it really wants to. Although this spec currently sucks, that could change real fast with some given patch, so yeah it is relevant to point out that using 3 or 4 or 5 traps as utilities is a potential of 3s of stealth & super speed per trap, per CD cycle. If that Rune had been around in the HoT meta, Dragonhunter would have introduced us all to a new level of "wtf is this"
Warrior Revenant Ele Necro - Only 4 classes that do not have access to stealth. But the other 5 have access to abundant levels of stealth. Ok.

When I play other RPG games of all different platforms, not every class is a rogue/illusionist with backstab. That's all I'm saying. The flavor is getting too heavy here in GW2. Kind of like how putting a bit of salt over a pot roast is good, but putting too much will completely ruin the flavor of the dinner.

The damage output is fine. In fact, the damage should be a 1HKO for how damn slow & cumbersome the attack combo is. This damage output has always been fine since the beginning of the game. The problem occurs when the Mesmer is able to always be in stealth when it launches that combo, and can move around the map like it has speed & tele hack on.

viquing.8254 · December 29, 2019

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
@viquing.8254 said:
@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:So a lot of people are playing not just core mes power, but also power mirage in conjunction with PU. As always with time, people are getting better on this build structure and are figuring out things that weren't so prevalent to see in play even 2 or 3 weeks ago. This has gone beyond general stealth bursting. Let me explain the kind of sheer tactful pressure that this build is able to create by doing nothing other than going into stealth:
I engage some power Mesmer build. He doesn't even sneak up on me or anything. No, we just straight up engage In combat.
Mesmer is saving his stealth CDs for what is by far the most powerful defensive CD baiting technique in the game.
After he has already engaged you for as long as he reasonably can without it being a danger to himself, and after he's already baited you out of some defensive and/or heal utility, he suddenly goes stealth. This is not a normal stealth routine. This is a stealth that could be anywhere from 3s to 15s.
Everyone knows the Mesmer is going to try and come back out of a stealth with big damage, but when the stealth lasts for an abnormally long amount of time, you realize the Mesmer is screwing with you. With the normal shorter single stealths, it becomes intuitive to know when to dodge roll or block, when you can feel that usual timer coming around when the mes is going to try and land his burst. But when that stealth can last anywhere from 3s to 15s, this becomes abusive. What the Mesmer is doing is, putting you in this situation where you
know
he is still near you and could land a burst at any time. So then you have to begin burning defensive CDs during this 3 to 15 seconds, to make sure you aren't randomly 1HKO during this time frame. And no, you can't just stand there and NOT use defensive CDs/Dodge rolls. If the Mesmer is actually good at landing accurate shatter combos, getting caught for a split second will render him enough time to instantly downstate you. So what's happening here is the Mesmer is purposely baiting your CDs because you have to use them. In many cases the player defending will also begin moving around trying to kite to odd places, which pushes them off nodes. Best case scenario is if an excellent player tries to save all defensive CDs, and just stops and stands still, and waits for the burst to hit so he can zen like react to the first pixel of animation he sees on his screen. If you were an excellent player, this could either work, or completely fail if you were to receive even a small +50 ping spike during the time frame that the Mesmer went in for burst. Remember, I am talking about good mesmers, not mediocre ones.
The other thing that the Mesmer can do is approach you or leave the fight, to initiate the above effect ^ to bait CDs, but never actually show up to engage you. When a Mesmer has established himself as dangerous in the match, people need but only to see that Mesmer approaching a node and then go stealth, or go stealth mid-engagement, and then they start burning defensive CDs & dodge rolls & kiting around like bailing up skyhammer jump pads. I was duo queuing with a buddy on power mes and we were abusing this tactic. We were calling this the:
"stealth pressure front - double back."
There are a couple ways to abuse this as a duo queue. 1) Both of us begin to approach a node against a 2v2 let's say. He does a long self stealth and doubles back to the previous node that we were at, where players are no longer expecting him to be. This creates an illusion of pressure for me. Now the 2 opponents on the node are not so freely ganking me as I approach, because they think there is a dangerous 1HKO power Mesmer near them that is stealthed. Due to the now ranging 3s to 15s of potential stealth uptime, this grants a rather large time frame for me as a DPS oriented class/build, to be able to attack the 2 players while they are attempting to take defensive stature due to the front of Mesmer pressure. this often leads to being able to win 1v2s actually. You can at least kill 1 player quickly, and then engage the other normally, or sometimes 1 of the players will run. Of course this is a strong technique because whenever 1 player can win vs. 2, the rest of his team is being granted 4v3 elsewhere on the map. 2) We do the double back together instead of splitting. Say there is an outnumbered situation at mid, we are 3v4. We both jump off mid and make it look like we are bailing to push far, but then he stealths us and we double back into the mid node for 1HKO action. This actually does 2x things. The first is that it creates a pressure front for any of our team mates who may be pushing the far node or who may already be there. This alleviates a lot of significant focus from our team member who is going to or who is at far. Now any opponents at the far node, think a dangerous Soulbeast DPS and Power Mesmer 1HKO duo are about to show up. In most cases, the opponent at the far node will just leave immediately.
This at the least provides a decap for our team and time for our team mate to reset defensive CDs
, even if the opponent wisens up quickly and comes back to reengage our team mate. The second thing this does is obvious, which is us sneaking back into the mid node to drop a coordinated Power Shatter/Berserker Soulbeast AoE death bomb.
This build is doing a lot more than what most people realize. This isn't simply an issue with game/skill mechanics or anything attribute tied. What we're talking about here is capable of a lot more than that when utilized by great players. Wise players can exploit this build to apply the pressure of their presence, to places that they aren't even at. Actually, due to Mass Invisibility, they can allow several team mates to create pressure fronts.
Which again, these kinds of tactics result in like instant decaps because some opponent defending his home, believes a DPS or two is about to show up and + him, so he leaves to kite, when it truth those DPS just stayed at the mid node and faked him out for a decap without spending rotation time to do it. Then of course this opens the stealth gank opportunity at that mid node, where the opponents think the Mesmer actually left.
Is this ok? A build that has so much elongated frequent stealth, with by far the most lethal burst from stealth, to the point that the thought of: "It might be approaching me" controls your rotations? I dunno, it's too much edgy psychological stealth play going on imo. Stealth play is great, to an extent. But I remember a time when Thieves & Mesmers used stealth offense to get a lead in damage on you not to 1HKO you, and their stealth presence wasn't dangerous to the point that people evacuated a node as if a nuclear weapon were about to land, as soon as they seen a stealth skill initiate.
There is too much psychological tact power in even just the "threat" of this build's presence. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I'm sure some people are wanting to tell me: "Just pay attention to where the Mesmer is at! Use map awareness!" That is such a cop out blanket statement for the techniques that I just explained how to do in this thread. The truth is this:
You can't know where the Mesmer is at until it attempts to burst you, due to juking & faking techniques such as the stealth pressure front - double back. Such techniques are greatly empowered in this current patching due to the inordinately frequent & elongated stealthing that the Mesmer possesses.
I shouldn't have to dedicate 100% of my focus to where the Mesmer is on my mini map and on the screen, when there are 4 other opponents that I am facing, and 4 other team mates that I need to be watching as well. That's too much pressure for tact that the class/build has. To put this into perspective, I have to keep my eyes on Clown or Acani as Deadeyes, less than half as much in a match, as I would a random slightly above bell curve power Mesmer. That's actually just messed up to be able to say that in truth.

The main issue isn't the stealth amount who basically didn't change since HoT beginning rework (apart the MI cd shortening.) but about the addition of modifiers as I explained in this thread. Combined with the new mobility master of manipulation provide.Now I already explained why master of manipulation is good as it can make core build viable and why the solution should be looking on damage modifier cumulation and trait combo who can already be solved with just few trait moving to make them compete and not cumuling.

I don't care when or how it happened. The problem is how it is right now. Choosing what to nerf or not nerf really has nothing to do with "how" or "when" a series of patches occurred. When we nerf something, we don't necessarily have to "revert" changes. It may often be healthier to tweak in an area that has never been touched before. I don't care how it is done, I just want to see the stealth application be more sparse & less elongated. It's just too much. It's funking up the feel of the game. I don't know how many times I have to say this: "I'm not saying it is OP" I am saying that it's too much stealth play. The game is turning into "Alien vs. Predator Stealth Cloak Camo Wars 2" and it just doesn't feel good man. Literally half the classes in this game have random access to large amounts of stealth for absolutely no reason. There is so much stealth access actually, that it is almost always convenient for a non stealth focused build to still have at least a single skill that grants stealth:

Order of stealth heavy classes, 1 being the heaviest:

Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage - PU has allowed this to go above & beyond even Thief in practical stealth application. One could argue methods that a Thief could technically front more stealth than a Mesmer, but it wouldn't be practical to run on any build structure. Mesmer on the other hand, can bring forth an enormous amount of self and party stealthing that is easy to apply, while still running powerful build structures.
Thief/Daredevil/Deadeye - Clearly 2nd place for reasons that I shouldn't have to explain. DE being the most, Core Thief after, and then Daredevil last which usually lately, opts into being more of a brawler than a Thief, but can still load in plenty of stealth if it needs it, and stay on a relevant build structure.
All Rangers & All Engis - Rangers have more self stealth access, Engis have more party AoE stealth access. Tied for 3rd place imo.
Dragonhunter - It can use Rune of Trapper if it really wants to. Although this spec currently sucks, that could change real fast with some given patch, so yeah it is relevant to point out that using 3 or 4 or 5 traps as utilities is a potential of 3s of stealth & super speed per trap, per CD cycle. If that Rune had been around in the HoT meta, Dragonhunter would have introduced us all to a new level of "kitten is this"
Warrior Revenant Ele Necro - Only 4 classes that do not have access to stealth. But the other 5 have access to abundant levels of stealth. Ok.

When I play other RPG games of all different platforms, not every class is a rogue/illusionist with backstab. That's all I'm saying. The flavor is getting too heavy here in GW2. Kind of like how putting a bit of salt over a pot roast is good, but putting too much will completely ruin the flavor of the dinner.

Yeah that's just what I said 3 post above, nobody care about what to nerf, what are the cause, what even they whine about.Which will just lead to more and more unhealthy play and broken spec + monogameplay build with no diversity.

The damage output is fine. In fact, the damage should be a 1HKO for how kitten slow & cumbersome the attack combo is. This damage output has always been fine since the beginning of the game. The problem occurs when the Mesmer is able to always be in stealth when it launches that combo, and can move around the map like it has speed & tele hack on.

Which is false,The damage combo get more buff thoses past years than the stealth uptime. If you can't get it like 80% of whiners in this thread and in mesmer general thread, it will just end with more dead traits, less diversity and I can easily predict the next nerf post because the root of the problem will not be resolved.With the core mes mobility weakness who was fill with new master of manipulation, you have the root of your problem.

For lazy guys :

@viquing.8254 said:Omg, this is really going in a "let's have more random nerf and dead trait" with some of "suggestions" in this post because 80% are pure whine or nerf suggestions with no backend.Ok then, let admit this build can hurt some people, then what to change ?
Just for history, this build received 3 major changes past years :1) Mass invis with a lower CD. Which mean better stealth duration.2) Mantra of Pain rework. Which mean better damage.3) Superspeed on manipulation. Which mean better mobility. + the fact that before it was reflect, which mean less overall reveal from random projectile reflect.4) In a less impactfull way, the phantasms rework.
Then :
About the nerf PU suggestion, I already discuss it with @"bravan.3876" and I don't think it will resolve anything : even with no PU, you will still get bursted from stealth. Mean as long as he didn't provide what will replace it, it will just end as a dead trait like CI and Lost time whereas it's not the problem in this case (imagine for example deleting a third of mesmer gameplay by removing "on dead trait" because of 2 traits synergy cough cough...).
About GS nerfs : compare it to other class weapon with same gear and looking at CD, animation, output, there isn't any problem with GS skills, they should even buff GS 5 damage...
About shatter nerf : in every other situation, F1 is a skill who need a setup => pop clones, moves of clone. It is so unreliable that you can only use this in melee otherwise it will fail. Moreover it will impact every mesmer build so it's not a solution too.
About nerfing the manipulation superspeed : I'm against because for the moment it's the only trait who can make core build usable in a PvP context. But It can be moved to compete with PU = survival with stealth or with superspeed. (choice.)
So the possibilities are :
Rework MoP : easy solution are might removal as suggered. Or make it back to 3 charges with less damage per charges so that each charge damage will does less damage = less burst + less might uptime as you will have more delay between casts. You can also make MoP give might only on teamate, not on the mesmer (teamplay cough cough...). edit : or make it a boon removal skills like discussed in another thread.
Delete Egotism : lazy design flast % damage trait who contribute to burst. (glamour haven't a trait since a long time now for example, cough cough ...).
Swap traits to disallow having a one way stacking modifier : Having to choose between mental anguish or superiority complex by putting them on the same column when target is disabled for example : lissed dps with superiority complex or burst with mental anguish. (choice.)
undo mass invis buff : it was already the only usable ulti and didn't need this CD buff. instead do something about moa and time warp please.
It's just some suggestions but looking at the root of what changed thoses past years, what will not destroy build diversity neither traits instead of just seeing 100k nerf post who will end up with random bad nerfs...Btw I didn't consider PU core as OP but if we can not go in all directions please because reading some post here make me think some guys probably never play mesmers as usual and will follow random nerfs suggestions.

Like we can saving destroy thing decorelate to why plebs get killed.But plebs never do the effort to think about what changed to explain why there is a new situation.

I will do my seer : remove PU = the next mesmer whine thread will be about nerfing burst because what is really pertubing plebs will not be solved.

Arheundel.6451 · December 29, 2019

We should celebrate power mesmers rather than crying about them...they prove to have the guts and skill to face you head on.....not like the condi variant staff camping who are the opposite..they lack both skills and guts, the AI plays for them while they spam 2-3 buttons over and over

Lich King.1524 · December 30, 2019

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@TorQ.7041 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@TorQ.7041 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@TorQ.7041 said:Agreed. The stealth up time is just stuipd. You can't tell where it's coming from or even see. No sound no animation. Nothing to react to.

torch 4 has big animation, and loud and clear sound.if you use it to chain stealth you will explode in stealth after 3/4,5s giving even more queue.

Mass invis has long cast time, and big ripple animation.Decoy has no animation or sound that can be heard, signet of midnight has sound and animation.And desperate is in combat and passive.

Out of all the 1shots most can be avoided with proper footwork, and by paying attention.

Yeah err. No. Mass stealth. Torch. Beginning of Match you can be at far. Literally happen just an AT 2 ppl in stealth no signs nothing.

No kitten torch had a big sign. Torch is 4 seconds u can see mes coming. Mass stealth u don't. Long cool down just doesn't justify kitten. Stop excusing unblanace for it's ok it had cool down. Rampage has cool a long cool down. Was it ok? No

mate, if enemy has 1shot mesmer. and you go to mid and there is NO enemy in sight. MAYBE just MAYBE you should donsider like, i dont know. Retreating ? or using defensive cooldows? I bet they just ran in and died xd

I don't actually have a problem with dying to 1 on my mains because either passive and or armor. I don't know where you are getting your imaginary scnerio from. But the fact that it can invis at large amounts of time and nuke a team with no signal or signs. Also being invis for 9 seconds hides u in mini map in the same way it hides a dp thief. Except a dp thief can't fully 1 shot.

You don't seem to understand that I am ok with 1 shot. But I am not ok to have a class that can 1 shot with no tell signs.

then you dont grasp that 1shoting with no tell signs is the only way you can 1shot in this kitten kitten game.Gl landing a burst on thief that can evade 15 times back to back, he would have to be very skilled indeed to be hit.9s of stealth is nothing, almost all builds can stall the stealth like this without issue.necro -> kite + marks or shroudwarrior -> dodge spaming or rampagethief -> dodging nonstop for its entire duration, or just moving out of rangemesmer -> counterstealth, dodging or just creating distance with blinkengi -> counterstealthranger -> passive, stealth,protectionguard -> aegis,prot,symbolsrev-> have no clue what they can do, but even when I do land the burst they dont die 80% of the time anyways.

you forgot ele.

with his lowest hp pool and lowest toughness

Leonidrex.5649 · December 30, 2019

@Lich King.1524 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@TorQ.7041 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@TorQ.7041 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@TorQ.7041 said:Agreed. The stealth up time is just stuipd. You can't tell where it's coming from or even see. No sound no animation. Nothing to react to.