Core Power Mesmer Is Nasty Toxic Nonesense

[TorQ.7041]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:mate, if enemy has 1shot mesmer. and you go to mid and there is NO enemy in sight. MAYBE just MAYBE you should donsider like, i dont know. Retreating ? or using defensive cooldows? I bet they just ran in and died xd

This is what I'm talking about when it comes to context in a match changing how strong something is. It only takes getting nuked once by a glass mesmer for you to understand that you should be paying attention to the minimap to see where they are before you go stand on a point. If they're nowhere to be seen, reconsider standing there for 6 seconds to rule out mass invis, then listen/watch for anything that may indicate a mesmer is setting up to gank you.

How do you watch or indicate something that can't be seen duh. With mirage 1 shot b4 stealth re-up time is low. So you can see it. Now you cant. Seriously I m done here. It's dumb ppl aren't ok with deadeye when there is a dot a sound and 2 seconds to react. With this there is no dot no sound n u can't in any way or form see pre stealth but hey whatever.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:Agreed. The stealth up time is just stuipd. You can't tell where it's coming from or even see. No sound no animation. Nothing to react to.

torch 4 has big animation, and loud and clear sound.if you use it to chain stealth you will explode in stealth after 3/4,5s giving even more queue.

Mass invis has long cast time, and big ripple animation.Decoy has no animation or sound that can be heard, signet of midnight has sound and animation.And desperate is in combat and passive.

Out of all the 1shots most can be avoided with proper footwork, and by paying attention.

Yeah err. No. Mass stealth. Torch. Beginning of Match you can be at far. Literally happen just an AT 2 ppl in stealth no signs nothing.

No kitten torch had a big sign. Torch is 4 seconds u can see mes coming. Mass stealth u don't. Long cool down just doesn't justify kitten. Stop excusing unblanace for it's ok it had cool down. Rampage has cool a long cool down. Was it ok? No

mate, if enemy has 1shot mesmer. and you go to mid and there is NO enemy in sight. MAYBE just MAYBE you should donsider like, i dont know. Retreating ? or using defensive cooldows? I bet they just ran in and died xd

I don't actually have a problem with dying to 1 on my mains because either passive and or armor. I don't know where you are getting your imaginary scnerio from. But the fact that it can invis at large amounts of time and nuke a team with no signal or signs. Also being invis for 9 seconds hides u in mini map in the same way it hides a dp thief. Except a dp thief can't fully 1 shot.

You don't seem to understand that I am ok with 1 shot. But I am not ok to have a class that can 1 shot with no tell signs.

then you dont grasp that 1shoting with no tell signs is the only way you can 1shot in this shitty ass game.Gl landing a burst on thief that can evade 15 times back to back, he would have to be very skilled indeed to be hit.9s of stealth is nothing, almost all builds can stall the stealth like this without issue.necro -> kite + marks or shroudwarrior -> dodge spaming or rampagethief -> dodging nonstop for its entire duration, or just moving out of rangemesmer -> counterstealth, dodging or just creating distance with blinkengi -> counterstealthranger -> passive, stealth,protectionguard -> aegis,prot,symbolsrev-> have no clue what they can do, but even when I do land the burst they dont die 80% of the time anyways.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:mate, if enemy has 1shot mesmer. and you go to mid and there is NO enemy in sight. MAYBE just MAYBE you should donsider like, i dont know. Retreating ? or using defensive cooldows? I bet they just ran in and died xd

This is what I'm talking about when it comes to context in a match changing how strong something is. It only takes getting nuked once by a glass mesmer for you to understand that you should be paying attention to the minimap to see where they are before you go stand on a point. If they're nowhere to be seen, reconsider standing there for 6 seconds to rule out mass invis, then listen/watch for anything that may indicate a mesmer is setting up to gank you.

How do you watch or indicate something that can't be seen duh.

Read the rest of @Leonidrex.5649 's post. Most of mesmer's stealth skills create an audio cue (and in some cases a visual one) when used.If you couple knowledge of that with occasional glances at the minimap to see if the mesmer is in combat somewhere, you can more often that not figure out what they plan to do or whether it is safe to decap/cap.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:torch 4 has big animation, and loud and clear sound.if you use it to chain stealth you will explode in stealth after 3/4,5s giving even more queue.Mass invis has long cast time, and big ripple animation.Decoy has no animation or sound that can be heard, signet of midnight has sound and animation.And desperate is in combat and passive.

I think they need a bit more telegraph because @Trevor Boyer.6524 showed that they can wipe you from stealth under certain cases. But only a bit. Anything too glaring and the build will be crippled vs anyone paying attention to the above.

Decoy should probably have a sound cue added regardless of whether you target someone close enough to spawn clone or not. Apart from that,If you see pink flames, hear any shimmer noises, see a ripple, or see a purple sword, you're about to get exploded.

I understand the frustration, and I think that the classes that dont have tools to retaliate properly against a mes who tries this (Like maybe necro) should get those. But when you consider that, vs any decent player, failing that burst means the mes loses (especially if the class they failed it on is a thief), you have very little room for error when it comes to balancing that. The sound cues are fine. If we can balance this by making those more audible or something then I'd go for that before any number changes.

[storm.3120]

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:If anything PU needs to be deleted, thats all (MoP could get hit by a truck too, might stacks to 6). Alongside with entire shadow arts traitline on thief and deleting "assasin signet" (hello 18 might stacks worth power).By the way, noticed something "interesting", when guardian from team USA didnt see or knew about ...NA mesmer (dont remember his name) was charging mantra next to him, thats alarmed guardian and he burnt the ground and used both evades, so he missed, I think you can hear it but im not 100% sure

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:If anything PU needs to be deleted, thats all (MoP could get hit by a truck too, might stacks to 6). Alongside with entire shadow arts traitline on thief and deleting "assasin signet" (hello 18 might stacks worth power).By the way, noticed something "interesting", when guardian from team USA didnt see or knew about ...NA mesmer (dont remember his name) was charging mantra next to him, thats alarmed guardian and he burnt the ground and used both evades, so he missed, I think you can hear it but im not 100% sure

you can hear it in stealth but its RNG if the voice line appears. + if you start the chant from far away. oponent wont hear.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth is ok.A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth commenced far out of reasonable sight and earshot is not.

Like @Odik.4587 said, do something about PU at least.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth is ok.A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth commenced far out of reasonable sight and earshot is not.

Like @Odik.4587 said, do something about PU at least.

one more dead trait \o/

[storm.3120]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:If anything PU needs to be deleted, thats all (MoP could get hit by a truck too, might stacks to 6). Alongside with entire shadow arts traitline on thief and deleting "assasin signet" (hello 18 might stacks worth power).By the way, noticed something "interesting", when guardian from team USA didnt see or knew about ...NA mesmer (dont remember his name) was charging mantra next to him, thats alarmed guardian and he burnt the ground and used both evades, so he missed, I think you can hear it but im not 100% sure

you can hear it in stealth but its RNG if the voice line appears. + if you start the chant from far away. oponent wont hear.No one would hear this mass invis blink from 200000 miles away anyway. I dont even say anything about your absurd exaggeration claims about "everyone can spam thier defensive cds for 9s np". Why should on earth anyone waste their evades and blocks and all defensive cooldowns because some clown running 20s stealth build and can burst whenever he want but you cant guess when that happens? He can just sit and wait when other dude burn all his cd, such outplay ! /s.You should burst within first 3 seconds or you lose that opportunity, simple. That goes for thief as well. Ideally when you lose stealth by any means you should get revealed debuff which would prevent re-stealthing, so you would be forced to attack or just to run away.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:If anything PU needs to be deleted, thats all (MoP could get hit by a truck too, might stacks to 6). Alongside with entire shadow arts traitline on thief and deleting "assasin signet" (hello 18 might stacks worth power).By the way, noticed something "interesting", when guardian from team USA didnt see or knew about ...NA mesmer (dont remember his name) was charging mantra next to him, thats alarmed guardian and he burnt the ground and used both evades, so he missed, I think you can hear it but im not 100% sure

you can hear it in stealth but its RNG if the voice line appears. + if you start the chant from far away. oponent wont hear.No one would hear this mass invis blink from 200000 miles away anyway. I dont even say anything about your absurd exaggeration claims about "everyone can spam thier defensive cds for 9s np". Why should on earth anyone waste their evades and blocks and all defensive cooldowns because some clown running 20s stealth build and can burst whenever he want but you cant guess when that happens? He can just sit and wait when other dude burn all his cd, such outplay ! /s.You should burst within first 3 seconds or you lose that opportunity, simple. That goes for thief as well. Ideally when you lose stealth by any means you should get revealed debuff which would prevent re-stealthing, so you would be forced to attack or just to run away.

oh no, my oponent used 6+ abilities to have a rng chance to 1shot me on glass canon hit or miss build. nooo

[Bazsi.2734]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:If anything PU needs to be deleted, thats all (MoP could get hit by a truck too, might stacks to 6). Alongside with entire shadow arts traitline on thief and deleting "assasin signet" (hello 18 might stacks worth power).By the way, noticed something "interesting", when guardian from team USA didnt see or knew about ...NA mesmer (dont remember his name) was charging mantra next to him, thats alarmed guardian and he burnt the ground and used both evades, so he missed, I think you can hear it but im not 100% sure

So remove most stealth and the ability to burst from specs that can only survive with stealth and ever hope to kill something when properly landing a burst. Good balance ideas, I also hate diversity in my games. PvP will only be truly balanced and equal if everyone rolls the same build on the same class!

[storm.3120]

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:If anything PU needs to be deleted, thats all (MoP could get hit by a truck too, might stacks to 6). Alongside with entire shadow arts traitline on thief and deleting "assasin signet" (hello 18 might stacks worth power).By the way, noticed something "interesting", when guardian from team USA didnt see or knew about ...NA mesmer (dont remember his name) was charging mantra next to him, thats alarmed guardian and he burnt the ground and used both evades, so he missed, I think you can hear it but im not 100% sure

So remove most stealth and the ability to burst from specs that can only survive with stealth and ever hope to kill something when properly landing a burst. Good balance ideas, I also hate diversity in my games. PvP will only be truly balanced and equal if everyone rolls the same build on the same class!Excessive stealth*. Thats reminds me a quote from BH "you cant fight what you cant see"No one is taking ability to burst but if you say so :D

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth is ok.A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth commenced far out of reasonable sight and earshot is not.

Like @Odik.4587 said, do something about PU at least.

one more dead trait \o/

Not if they replace it with something actually healthy and useful. Wishful thinking, I know.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:If anything PU needs to be deleted, thats all (MoP could get hit by a truck too, might stacks to 6). Alongside with entire shadow arts traitline on thief and deleting "assasin signet" (hello 18 might stacks worth power).By the way, noticed something "interesting", when guardian from team USA didnt see or knew about ...NA mesmer (dont remember his name) was charging mantra next to him, thats alarmed guardian and he burnt the ground and used both evades, so he missed, I think you can hear it but im not 100% sure

you can hear it in stealth but its RNG if the voice line appears. + if you start the chant from far away. oponent wont hear.No one would hear this mass invis blink from 200000 miles away anyway. I dont even say anything about your absurd exaggeration claims about "everyone can spam thier defensive cds for 9s np". Why should on earth anyone waste their evades and blocks and all defensive cooldowns because some clown running 20s stealth build and can burst whenever he want but you cant guess when that happens? He can just sit and wait when other dude burn all his cd, such outplay ! /s.You should burst within first 3 seconds or you lose that opportunity, simple. That goes for thief as well. Ideally when you lose stealth by any means you should get revealed debuff which would prevent re-stealthing, so you would be forced to attack or just to run away.

oh no, my oponent used 6+ abilities to have a rng chance to 1shot me on glass canon hit or miss build. nooo

The problem is that there is often little to no counterplay when the burst does work. Shouldn't we encourage counterplay in general rather than RNG mechanics?

EDIT: Somewhere in one of the 1HKO discussions someone described a hypothetical spec that has a 50% chance to instantly delete another player. They made the point that it would technically be "balanced" because of the 50/50 RNG, but it would not be fun or healthy to have in the game. The build in this discussion seems rather similar.

[Axl.8924]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:Agreed. The stealth up time is just stuipd. You can't tell where it's coming from or even see. No sound no animation. Nothing to react to.

torch 4 has big animation, and loud and clear sound.if you use it to chain stealth you will explode in stealth after 3/4,5s giving even more queue.

Mass invis has long cast time, and big ripple animation.Decoy has no animation or sound that can be heard, signet of midnight has sound and animation.And desperate is in combat and passive.

Out of all the 1shots most can be avoided with proper footwork, and by paying attention.

Yeah err. No. Mass stealth. Torch. Beginning of Match you can be at far. Literally happen just an AT 2 ppl in stealth no signs nothing.

No kitten torch had a big sign. Torch is 4 seconds u can see mes coming. Mass stealth u don't. Long cool down just doesn't justify kitten. Stop excusing unblanace for it's ok it had cool down. Rampage has cool a long cool down. Was it ok? No

mate, if enemy has 1shot mesmer. and you go to mid and there is NO enemy in sight. MAYBE just MAYBE you should donsider like, i dont know. Retreating ? or using defensive cooldows? I bet they just ran in and died xd

I don't actually have a problem with dying to 1 on my mains because either passive and or armor. I don't know where you are getting your imaginary scnerio from. But the fact that it can invis at large amounts of time and nuke a team with no signal or signs. Also being invis for 9 seconds hides u in mini map in the same way it hides a dp thief. Except a dp thief can't fully 1 shot.

You don't seem to understand that I am ok with 1 shot. But I am not ok to have a class that can 1 shot with no tell signs.

then you dont grasp that 1shoting with no tell signs is the only way you can 1shot in this kitten kitten game.Gl landing a burst on thief that can evade 15 times back to back, he would have to be very skilled indeed to be hit.9s of stealth is nothing, almost all builds can stall the stealth like this without issue.necro -> kite + marks or shroudwarrior -> dodge spaming or rampagethief -> dodging nonstop for its entire duration, or just moving out of rangemesmer -> counterstealth, dodging or just creating distance with blinkengi -> counterstealthranger -> passive, stealth,protectionguard -> aegis,prot,symbolsrev-> have no clue what they can do, but even when I do land the burst they dont die 80% of the time anyways.

I bet if i put well of darkness or plaguelands to punish youwhile on top of me, it would make you visible, on top of that, all your clones should technically get hit plus you.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:Agreed. The stealth up time is just stuipd. You can't tell where it's coming from or even see. No sound no animation. Nothing to react to.

torch 4 has big animation, and loud and clear sound.if you use it to chain stealth you will explode in stealth after 3/4,5s giving even more queue.

Mass invis has long cast time, and big ripple animation.Decoy has no animation or sound that can be heard, signet of midnight has sound and animation.And desperate is in combat and passive.

Out of all the 1shots most can be avoided with proper footwork, and by paying attention.

Yeah err. No. Mass stealth. Torch. Beginning of Match you can be at far. Literally happen just an AT 2 ppl in stealth no signs nothing.

No kitten torch had a big sign. Torch is 4 seconds u can see mes coming. Mass stealth u don't. Long cool down just doesn't justify kitten. Stop excusing unblanace for it's ok it had cool down. Rampage has cool a long cool down. Was it ok? No

mate, if enemy has 1shot mesmer. and you go to mid and there is NO enemy in sight. MAYBE just MAYBE you should donsider like, i dont know. Retreating ? or using defensive cooldows? I bet they just ran in and died xd

I don't actually have a problem with dying to 1 on my mains because either passive and or armor. I don't know where you are getting your imaginary scnerio from. But the fact that it can invis at large amounts of time and nuke a team with no signal or signs. Also being invis for 9 seconds hides u in mini map in the same way it hides a dp thief. Except a dp thief can't fully 1 shot.

You don't seem to understand that I am ok with 1 shot. But I am not ok to have a class that can 1 shot with no tell signs.

then you dont grasp that 1shoting with no tell signs is the only way you can 1shot in this kitten kitten game.Gl landing a burst on thief that can evade 15 times back to back, he would have to be very skilled indeed to be hit.9s of stealth is nothing, almost all builds can stall the stealth like this without issue.necro -> kite + marks or shroudwarrior -> dodge spaming or rampagethief -> dodging nonstop for its entire duration, or just moving out of rangemesmer -> counterstealth, dodging or just creating distance with blinkengi -> counterstealthranger -> passive, stealth,protectionguard -> aegis,prot,symbolsrev-> have no clue what they can do, but even when I do land the burst they dont die 80% of the time anyways.

I bet if i put well of darkness or plaguelands to punish youwhile on top of me, it would make you visible, on top of that, all your clones should technically get hit plus you.

IT wouldnt reveal but neuter the 1shot if walked over.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Darkness -> blind. so it would have to be eaten up by f2 ( so no stun, meaming no trait procs ) or mind spike ( no ping of damage and no 5 stacks of vulnerability )https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plaguelands -> weakness and blind would be game over for the one shot.It would not reveal, but It would keep you safe assuming you position it right.From necro, marks are better becouse you know when they get triggered, meaning you can react accordingly.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth is ok.A glass, 1-trick, one-shot from stealth commenced far out of reasonable sight and earshot is not.

Like @Odik.4587 said, do something about PU at least.

one more dead trait \o/

Not if they replace it with something actually healthy and useful. Wishful thinking, I know.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:If anything PU needs to be deleted, thats all (MoP could get hit by a truck too, might stacks to 6). Alongside with entire shadow arts traitline on thief and deleting "assasin signet" (hello 18 might stacks worth power).By the way, noticed something "interesting", when guardian from team USA didnt see or knew about ...NA mesmer (dont remember his name) was charging mantra next to him, thats alarmed guardian and he burnt the ground and used both evades, so he missed, I think you can hear it but im not 100% sure

you can hear it in stealth but its RNG if the voice line appears. + if you start the chant from far away. oponent wont hear.No one would hear this mass invis blink from 200000 miles away anyway. I dont even say anything about your absurd exaggeration claims about "everyone can spam thier defensive cds for 9s np". Why should on earth anyone waste their evades and blocks and all defensive cooldowns because some clown running 20s stealth build and can burst whenever he want but you cant guess when that happens? He can just sit and wait when other dude burn all his cd, such outplay ! /s.You should burst within first 3 seconds or you lose that opportunity, simple. That goes for thief as well. Ideally when you lose stealth by any means you should get revealed debuff which would prevent re-stealthing, so you would be forced to attack or just to run away.

oh no, my oponent used 6+ abilities to have a rng chance to 1shot me on glass canon hit or miss build. nooo

The problem is that there is often little to no counterplay when the burst does work. Shouldn't we encourage counterplay in general rather than RNG mechanics?

EDIT: Somewhere in one of the 1HKO discussions someone described a hypothetical spec that has a 50% chance to instantly delete another player. They made the point that it would technically be "balanced" because of the 50/50 RNG, but it would not be fun or healthy to have in the game. The build in this discussion seems rather similar.

Nah, there is ALOT of small counterplay. just people dont use 80% of it.There is no 1 solution that prevents 1shot, there is 100 different ones that give you a better chance.People are too used to their, x attacks me, I dodge x and im safe.People need to learn to look at the map.Use aoe to zone out.Look at the map to track mesmer.Keep mental track of the respawn timers.Position in team properly, often times even if you get downed mes cant pressure you to finish you off.Understand their mobility and thus know how soon mes can attempt burst.and many many many other things that people dont do.Heck even moving in unpredictable manner -> mes can overshot with movement/blink and fail or just do the combo from longer range and give more time to react.You can use long range attacks into the air, if you hit them in stealth and that hit generates boons/lifeforce you will know mes is there and can act properly.

Many many many many small ways to avoid the issue, yet when i play 98% players stands stock still on the middle of the node and just takes it up the ass and then complain.

[apharma.3741]

PU wasn't (as big of) a problem before they buffed the heck out of mass invis, just saiyan.

[storm.3120]

@apharma.3741 said:PU wasn't (as big of) a problem before they buffed the heck out of mass invis, just saiyan.That elite sucked major D compared to nonelite and elite stealth skills.I wonder what are you tried to achieve with it ?

[apharma.3741]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"apharma.3741" said:PU wasn't (as big of) a problem before they buffed the heck out of mass invis, just saiyan.That elite sucked major D compared to nonelite and elite stealth skills.I wonder what are you tried to achieve with it ?

No, the elite "sucked major D" compared to other stealth options in the game that had been given to other classes during this wanton power creep fiasco of ANet's since expansions came out.

Also current Mass Invisibility is a major culprit to current complaints whether the people complaining about it know it or not.

Mass Invis went from 90s (72s) cool down to 60s (48s) while also gaining 1s (1.5s) more stealth and having 0.5s shaved off it's cast.Old Mass Invis stealth uptime = 5/90x100 = 5.6% or traited 7.5/72x100 = 10.4%New Mass Invis stealth uptime = 6/60x100 = 10% or traited 9/48x100 = 18.8%

In terms of stealth increase both have seen a 20% increase in duration which isn't a negligible increase.If someone wanted to make another comparison, which I would say is flawed, the stealth uptime has gone up by 79% untraited and 80% traited. As I say I think this is a bit of a flawed metric as it's more applicable to perma and high stealth uptime builds which this isn't.

However it is undeniable how big the buff to mass invis has been when it really didn't need it being one of the longest lasting single stealth applications in the game and in fact many people are (rightly) complaining about other skills that grant as much stealth without the 1.75s cast time Mass Invis had.

In other words instead of nerfing the power creep, ANet went with buff up and we have the shitshow we have now, which I said and warned everyone about constantly throughout HoT and PoF.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@apharma.3741 said:PU wasn't (as big of) a problem before they buffed the heck out of mass invis, just saiyan.That elite sucked major D compared to nonelite and elite stealth skills.I wonder what are you tried to achieve with it ?

No, the elite "sucked major D" compared to other stealth options in the game that had been given to other classes during this wanton power creep fiasco of ANet's since expansions came out.

Also current Mass Invisibility is a major culprit to current complaints whether the people complaining about it know it or not.

Mass Invis went from 90s (72s) cool down to 60s (48s) while also gaining 1s (1.5s) more stealth and having 0.5s shaved off it's cast.Old Mass Invis stealth uptime = 5/90x100 = 5.6% or traited 7.5/72x100 = 10.4%New Mass Invis stealth uptime = 6/60x100 = 10% or traited 9/48x100 = 18.8%

In terms of stealth increase both have seen a 20% increase in duration which isn't a negligible increase.If someone wanted to make another comparison, which I would say is flawed, the stealth uptime has gone up by 79% untraited and 80% traited. As I say I think this is a bit of a flawed metric as it's more applicable to perma and high stealth uptime builds which this isn't.

However it is undeniable how big the buff to mass invis has been when it really didn't need it being one of the longest lasting single stealth applications in the game and in fact many people are (rightly) complaining about other skills that grant as much stealth without the 1.75s cast time Mass Invis had.

In other words instead of nerfing the power creep, ANet went with buff up and we have the kitten we have now, which I said and warned everyone about constantly throughout HoT and PoF.

meanwhile ranger gets 25% uptime from longbow.yet we double trait heroic to get 18%. was old mass srsl so bad that it had 5% uptime? what the actual xd

edit you didnt account for the cast times ;pso 9s every 49,25s meaning 18,27% uptime.MI is under 10% uptime if not traited, yikes.

[apharma.3741]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@apharma.3741 said:PU wasn't (as big of) a problem before they buffed the heck out of mass invis, just saiyan.That elite sucked major D compared to nonelite and elite stealth skills.I wonder what are you tried to achieve with it ?

No, the elite "sucked major D" compared to other stealth options in the game that had been given to other classes during this wanton power creep fiasco of ANet's since expansions came out.

Also current Mass Invisibility is a major culprit to current complaints whether the people complaining about it know it or not.

Mass Invis went from 90s (72s) cool down to 60s (48s) while also gaining 1s (1.5s) more stealth and having 0.5s shaved off it's cast.Old Mass Invis stealth uptime = 5/90x100 = 5.6% or traited 7.5/72x100 = 10.4%New Mass Invis stealth uptime = 6/60x100 = 10% or traited 9/48x100 = 18.8%

In terms of stealth increase both have seen a 20% increase in duration which isn't a negligible increase.If someone wanted to make another comparison, which I would say is flawed, the stealth uptime has gone up by 79% untraited and 80% traited. As I say I think this is a bit of a flawed metric as it's more applicable to perma and high stealth uptime builds which this isn't.

However it is undeniable how big the buff to mass invis has been when it really didn't need it being one of the longest lasting single stealth applications in the game and in fact many people are (rightly) complaining about other skills that grant as much stealth without the 1.75s cast time Mass Invis had.

In other words instead of nerfing the power creep, ANet went with buff up and we have the kitten we have now, which I said and warned everyone about constantly throughout HoT and PoF.

meanwhile ranger gets 25% uptime from longbow.yet we double trait heroic to get 18%. was old mass srsl so bad that it had 5% uptime? what the actual xd

Mass invis wasn't bad as it was long lasting (for the time) stealth in a 1200 range for up to 10 people. Yes it's uptime was bad but just like old moa, the uptime was actually terrible but the right application of it would literally swing games for it's entire cool down.

It's just a shame Timewarp was never that good.

Edit: Also yes ranger is busted for constant stealth, it has easily as much as any class without traiting but other classes can trait for more + perks.

[storm.3120]

@"apharma.3741" said:In other words instead of nerfing the power creep, ANet went with buff up and we have the kitten we have now, which I said and warned everyone about constantly throughout HoT and PoF.Only blind cant see that everything went into the window when they released even more powercrept elite specs than the previous. If believe to their "announce" everything is going to be ... emmm... changed... I dont believe anything they do will fix all bs they have done, not even close. If anything I expect gw to be unaccessable for weeks xDP.S mesmer elites doesnt feel like elites, it feels like useless trash. 180s cd moa, 180s TW. Chrono deleted, all nerfs that were done now unwarranted, just keeping monstrously long cooldowns on useless elites but here we are with complains about MI :)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

So a lot of people are playing not just core mes power, but also power mirage in conjunction with PU. As always with time, people are getting better on this build structure and are figuring out things that weren't so prevalent to see in play even 2 or 3 weeks ago. This has gone beyond general stealth bursting. Let me explain the kind of sheer tactful pressure that this build is able to create by doing nothing other than going into stealth:

1. I engage some power Mesmer build. He doesn't even sneak up on me or anything. No, we just straight up engage In combat.
2. Mesmer is saving his stealth CDs for what is by far the most powerful defensive CD baiting technique in the game.
3. After he has already engaged you for as long as he reasonably can without it being a danger to himself, and after he's already baited you out of some defensive and/or heal utility, he suddenly goes stealth. This is not a normal stealth routine. This is a stealth that could be anywhere from 3s to 15s.
4. Everyone knows the Mesmer is going to try and come back out of a stealth with big damage, but when the stealth lasts for an abnormally long amount of time, you realize the Mesmer is screwing with you. With the normal shorter single stealths, it becomes intuitive to know when to dodge roll or block, when you can feel that usual timer coming around when the mes is going to try and land his burst. But when that stealth can last anywhere from 3s to 15s, this becomes abusive. What the Mesmer is doing is, putting you in this situation where you know he is still near you and could land a burst at any time. So then you have to begin burning defensive CDs during this 3 to 15 seconds, to make sure you aren't randomly 1HKO during this time frame. And no, you can't just stand there and NOT use defensive CDs/Dodge rolls. If the Mesmer is actually good at landing accurate shatter combos, getting caught for a split second will render him enough time to instantly downstate you. So what's happening here is the Mesmer is purposely baiting your CDs because you have to use them. In many cases the player defending will also begin moving around trying to kite to odd places, which pushes them off nodes. Best case scenario is if an excellent player tries to save all defensive CDs, and just stops and stands still, and waits for the burst to hit so he can zen like react to the first pixel of animation he sees on his screen. If you were an excellent player, this could either work, or completely fail if you were to receive even a small +50 ping spike during the time frame that the Mesmer went in for burst. Remember, I am talking about good mesmers, not mediocre ones.
5. The other thing that the Mesmer can do is approach you or leave the fight, to initiate the above effect ^ to bait CDs, but never actually show up to engage you. When a Mesmer has established himself as dangerous in the match, people need but only to see that Mesmer approaching a node and then go stealth, or go stealth mid-engagement, and then they start burning defensive CDs & dodge rolls & kiting around like bailing up skyhammer jump pads. I was duo queuing with a buddy on power mes and we were abusing this tactic. We were calling this the: "stealth pressure front - double back." There are a couple ways to abuse this as a duo queue. 1) Both of us begin to approach a node against a 2v2 let's say. He does a long self stealth and doubles back to the previous node that we were at, where players are no longer expecting him to be. This creates an illusion of pressure for me. Now the 2 opponents on the node are not so freely ganking me as I approach, because they think there is a dangerous 1HKO power Mesmer near them that is stealthed. Due to the now ranging 3s to 15s of potential stealth uptime, this grants a rather large time frame for me as a DPS oriented class/build, to be able to attack the 2 players while they are attempting to take defensive stature due to the front of Mesmer pressure. this often leads to being able to win 1v2s actually. You can at least kill 1 player quickly, and then engage the other normally, or sometimes 1 of the players will run. Of course this is a strong technique because whenever 1 player can win vs. 2, the rest of his team is being granted 4v3 elsewhere on the map. 2) We do the double back together instead of splitting. Say there is an outnumbered situation at mid, we are 3v4. We both jump off mid and make it look like we are bailing to push far, but then he stealths us and we double back into the mid node for 1HKO action. This actually does 2x things. The first is that it creates a pressure front for any of our team mates who may be pushing the far node or who may already be there. This alleviates a lot of significant focus from our team member who is going to or who is at far. Now any opponents at the far node, think a dangerous Soulbeast DPS and Power Mesmer 1HKO duo are about to show up. In most cases, the opponent at the far node will just leave immediately. This at the least provides a decap for our team and time for our team mate to reset defensive CDs, even if the opponent wisens up quickly and comes back to reengage our team mate. The second thing this does is obvious, which is us sneaking back into the mid node to drop a coordinated Power Shatter/Berserker Soulbeast AoE death bomb.

This build is doing a lot more than what most people realize. This isn't simply an issue with game/skill mechanics or anything attribute tied. What we're talking about here is capable of a lot more than that when utilized by great players. Wise players can exploit this build to apply the pressure of their presence, to places that they aren't even at. Actually, due to Mass Invisibility, they can allow several team mates to create pressure fronts. Which again, these kinds of tactics result in like instant decaps because some opponent defending his home, believes a DPS or two is about to show up and + him, so he leaves to kite, when it truth those DPS just stayed at the mid node and faked him out for a decap without spending rotation time to do it. Then of course this opens the stealth gank opportunity at that mid node, where the opponents think the Mesmer actually left.

Is this ok? A build that has so much elongated frequent stealth, with by far the most lethal burst from stealth, to the point that the thought of: "It might be approaching me" controls your rotations? I dunno, it's too much edgy psychological stealth play going on imo. Stealth play is great, to an extent. But I remember a time when Thieves & Mesmers used stealth offense to get a lead in damage on you not to 1HKO you, and their stealth presence wasn't dangerous to the point that people evacuated a node as if a nuclear weapon were about to land, as soon as they seen a stealth skill initiate.

There is too much psychological tact power in even just the "threat" of this build's presence. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, I'm sure some people are wanting to tell me: "Just pay attention to where the Mesmer is at! Use map awareness!" That is such a cop out blanket statement for the techniques that I just explained how to do in this thread. The truth is this:

1. You can't know where the Mesmer is at until it attempts to burst you, due to juking & faking techniques such as the stealth pressure front - double back. Such techniques are greatly empowered in this current patching due to the inordinately frequent & elongated stealthing that the Mesmer possesses.
2. I shouldn't have to dedicate 100% of my focus to where the Mesmer is on my mini map and on the screen, when there are 4 other opponents that I am facing, and 4 other team mates that I need to be watching as well. That's too much pressure for tact that the class/build has. To put this into perspective, I have to keep my eyes on Clown or Acani as Deadeyes, less than half as much in a match, as I would a random slightly above bell curve power Mesmer. That's actually just messed up to be able to say that in truth.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" here is the problem mate.Focus is not something you divide like candy on halloween.You should passively be focused at everything happening around you. You shouldnt even have to " think " about mesmer.you should by a glance know where he was and how long at " worst case scenario " it will take him to get to you.

If 1shot mes just engages you, all it takes is to land 2 abilities at best and its over, 1 weakness and hes out.Most builds 2shot them, had reapers hit me for 5-10k with 1 abiliti from range while out of combat ( no vuln no might no nothing ).If they engage like this all you have to do is whittle their defences and 1 get protection2 apply weakness3 outright kill them4 reveal them ( warrior,holo,rev can do it. if it happens its game over )5 get them with something that tracks after stealth6 aoe cleave their positionAnd many other things, if YOU fail to punish him for taking risk, then its your fault. I have NEVER got attacked by mesmer like this and him not regreting it.

Im playing jungle in league. I can not see enemy jungler for 2minutes or more, and still be reasonably sure where he is, what is he going to do, when and how.Do i focus on it? no, im chatting about upcoming games with my friends while drinking fanta or arguing about a witcher series.Point is I dont even put any effort into it becouse I have been doing it for years and it comes as default to me now.I think its about time people in this game have to start thinking.Heck i got to plat 1 and didnt even use minimap, its disgracefull that people put SO LITTLE effort, get so much reward. And when they are forced to try to win the game they collapse and fail.

PS Playing again 1shot mes/power mirage/deadeye are one of the must fun games I had, bullshit happens yes. but overall its fun, it allows you to use your brains.its a nice change of pace, instead of constant warrior vs warrior dodging eachother for 2min nonstop or fb+scourge vs fb+scourge snoozefiesta.

[storm.3120]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:So a lot of people are playing not just core mes power, but also power mirage in conjunction with PU.After this you lost all your credibility (not like you had any before, lol).Nobody like wall posts that has like 0.0001% of useful information or that actually makes sense

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"Trevor Boyer.6524" here is the problem mate.Focus is not something you divide like candy on halloween.

But it is and it has to be. Example:

1. There is an enemy Reaper at mid. After I notice him, I know he is there and that he will be there for awhile. Even if he begins to rotate, with a very quick glance of the mini map I can see where he is headed. He cannot self stealth for strong disengage, rotation, or pressure fronts. This requires much much less effort or "focus" to see what the Reaper is doing and guard myself against his positioning, than compared to ->
2. There is a top 50 Power Mesmer/Mirage on the opponent team. He is at the far node, I am at my home node. Every 10 to 20s, his Mesmer icon is vanishing off the mini map anywhere from 3s to 15s, and repositioning long ranges from his previous location. To maintain even relative grasp on what his current rotation or play is, I must constantly make SURE that I am putting priority focus on paying attention to the bleeps of when he appears on the radar so I can attempt to interpret what he may do next when he stealths, because when he stealths, I cannot watch him rotate in the same way I could watch the Reaper. I must attempt to intuitively gauge what I "think" he is doing when he stealths. While I am at the home node, I actually have to be concerned if when I see him stealth at far, if he is headed to me at the home node or not. If he doesn't reappear 3s after his initial stealth, there is the potential that he could appear anywhere at any node in small or sometimes medium maps such as Khylo or Temple or Skyhammer or even Capricorn "Thank you Super Speed & Double Blink". If I believe he is headed to me at the home node, or say I even decide to leave the home node and go to mid before this happens, because I cannot see the Mesmer/Mirage for an elongated amount of time, I do not know if he is trying to sneak up on me or intercept me. And any time I know I have to engage this player or that there is a risk of engaging him, due to the nature of the 1HKO potential from his stealth, I cannot afford to put general awareness into effect because I must put all of my focus into being ready for that moment when the first animation pixel from his burst lands, so I have a chance to actually counter play that garbage with focus on reflex timing. <- And we all know this is true, you know it's true, don't try to down play it. One does not simply counter play perfect or near perfectly timed power shatter bursting through general awareness, in the same way that you would react to obvious Full Counter or Bull Charge or Forge or even visible Thief animations, it's too fast with too little tells. To even be able to grant yourself the moment of clarity to be ready to counter play such a stealth offensive true 1HKO, you have to put your focus mostly if not all in. You seriously cannot be distracted at all. With a burst that happens that fast when done correctly, even a tenth of a second of delay on your reflex matters the difference between 100% to 0% downstate or 100% to 25% and at least surviving it, ready to counter play with your next action. This scenario with the instantly lethal 1HKO stealth Mesmer/Mirage, certainly demands a great deal more effort or focus to properly counter play mechanically, than any other build in the game.

You should passively be focused at everything happening around you. You shouldnt even have to " think " about mesmer.

I feel like you're just looking for dig material to defend this build structure. This comment here ^ is as if stealth were not a powerful effect that prevented other players from seeing what you were doing or where you were going. I get the theory in what you're saying, and in every other previous patch history I would have agreed with you, even before DJ unblockable nerf and DE stealth on dodge nerf, I even felt the state of THOSE skills were ok, because DJ had a red line and a loud noise that happened before you took any damage. But this PU thing has gone too far with too much elongated easy stealth application even for the entire party, in conjunction with granting mo'fluxin Super Speed with just about every utility used, and instant 100% to 0% with only a sparkle of a pixel to react to for counter play. It's too much dude. The Mesmer is breaking the barrier of being realistic to reliably gauge his rotation to create counter play around it, using the mini map. Against top tier Mesmers, you're never really sure when he bleeps onto the map, if he is juking you, creating a front, doubling back, you just don't know until you SEE him engaging a combat, and even when that happens, it won't be long until he stealths again. Remember that I never said this was OP. What I have been saying this entire time, is that I do not want Guild Wars 2 competitive modes to feel like I am playing the Hasbro table top board game "Battleship", where I have no friggin clue where my target is or what is hitting me. It's been a long time coming, all of these years adding more and more stealth play into the game, but Guild Wars 2 has officially dipped too far into the world of stealth play death striking with the current patching of PU.

you should by a glance know where he was and how long at " worst case scenario " it will take him to get to you.

Except that seriously does not matter at all when it has enough teleportation & superspeed, and stealth to cover its teleportation & superspeed, to potentially reappear in any position on the map that it wants to be. This includes a 48s full party stealth that lasts 9s for everyone in the field. This is what I mean when I said "It is breaking reasonable QoL standards in the game of conquest, concerning the practicality of even being able to utilize the mini map for awareness against it." It's just too much stealth play mixed with gobs of mobility. Now if we were talking a trap DH with Trapper Runes, yeah what you said is very true. Every time he stealths he isn't going to be going too far. Or even a DE with short 2s stealths. But ambiguous 3 to 15s Mesmer stealths with massive mobility behind it? That involves just as much guess work as it does player experience, to attempt to gauge his rotations or plays. At that point, emphasize begins to go on putting focus on that moment of reflex so you don't get 1Shot, rather than using the mini map for adequate & reliable tells & predictions of rotations, for counter play.

If 1shot mes just engages you, all it takes is to land 2 abilities at best and its over, 1 weakness and hes out.Most builds 2shot them, had reapers hit me for 5-10k with 1 abiliti from range while out of combat ( no vuln no might no nothing ).If they engage like this all you have to do is whittle their defences and 1 get protection2 apply weakness3 outright kill them4 reveal them ( warrior,holo,rev can do it. if it happens its game over )5 get them with something that tracks after stealth6 aoe cleave their positionAnd many other things, if YOU fail to punish him for taking risk, then its your fault. I have NEVER got attacked by mesmer like this and him not regreting it.

I'm not complaining about anything being over powered dude. I'm complaining about Guild Wars 2 now feeling like I am playing the Hasbro board game Battleship. I don't like it. It's too much powerful stealth play.

PS Playing again 1shot mes/power mirage/deadeye are one of the must fun games I had, kitten happens yes. but overall its fun, it allows you to use your brains.its a nice change of pace, instead of constant warrior vs warrior dodging eachother for 2min nonstop or fb+scourge vs fb+scourge snoozefiesta.

I actually completely agree with you. But I enjoy that feel while I am WvW roaming and engage another competent killer out in a field, where we have no timer, and we aren't worried about imminently losing or winning a match depending on our node tied play in very small corridors, and we usually aren't worried at all about needing to bounce around to support team members or something. I actually enjoy that stuff in WvW. But in conquest matches & maps, this stealth heavy play is beginning to break the fundamental dynamic role & purpose behind the game mode, that made it feel good for so many years. In my opinion, this battleship like stealth heavy play has no place in conquest matches/maps. Just my opinion.