[Spoiler] Jormag's true intention — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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[Spoiler] Jormag's true intention

Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

Obviously it wanted to use us against Primordus. Through the shards achievement we knew that they had a huge clash and since they were each other's weakness. That's why it didn't kill us and try to seduce us.

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  • The shards achievement references the work of Taimi's machine, right?

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah it's just about the machine, the dragons have not shown any interest in attacking each-other ever.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Yeah it's just about the machine, the dragons have not shown any interest in attacking each-other ever.

    The achievement text to hunt down the Shards of Jormag indicates that they're scales from when they fought Primordus during the previous dragonrise in the Drizzlewood Coast area. So we now have direct evidence showing that the Elder Dragons are willing to fight each other... even if rarely.

    it's also the first direct confirmation of Jormag's presence in Central Tyria area in the previous dragonrise - the only evidence before was just the dwarves' knowledge of it, since Jormag woke up far north of Central Tyria.

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The achievement text to hunt down the Shards of Jormag indicates that they're scales from when they fought Primordus during the previous dragonrise in the Drizzlewood Coast area. So we now have direct evidence showing that the Elder Dragons are willing to fight each other... even if rarely.

    "Long ago, Primordus struck Jormag in battle and littered the Drizzlewood Coast in shards."

    I'm curious why Primordus attacked Jormag and what they fought for. Everything we know is that both Dragons survived.
    However, Jormag has started to talk to us and seeks cooperation with mortals - Primordus just stands for total destruction. But what did Jormag say?

    "You do not fear death. You fear something far worse. You fear outliving the ones you swore to protect."

    It's strange that an elder dragon develops empathy towards such tiny races... or is Jormag talking about it's own fears?

    "You fear the day your children no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame."

    Chill of the frost or warmth of the flame is also a strange analogy if we are still talking about tiny races, but understandable for Ice or Fire dragons...

    "It is this fear that is your enemy, not I. The prison in which all races of Tyria suffer."

    All races... does this include Elder Dragons? Kralkatorrik could only speak for himself when he said "Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon. Not even death.", but at least he and Joramag are aware of beeing mortal, too. Are they aware that there is an End to all Dragons, a cycle, that has to be reborn? What happens to Jormag and Primordus, when we set sail to Cantha? Are they still there, slumbering, or are they going to be replaced? With whom?

    What if Jormag has been hiding Eggs / Scions, and is protecting it's children against a bigger threat, maybe the feral and destructive Primordus, maybe something else. An Elder Dragon that asks for cooperation to double it's chances of success but also makes a clear statement to not stand in it's way:
    "But you need not fear me, champion, for I can set you free. Join me, and you shall have the strength to protect your people in the trials to come. Stand against me, and you stand alone."

  • The thing about the trailer speech is that Jormag was directing it - supposedly at Bangar - and when they're talking to someone they want to manipulate, they twist the truth to be what they want.

    I'm curious why Primordus attacked Jormag and what they fought for. Everything we know is that both Dragons survived.

    My thought is because Jormag is Primordus' weakness, and when there were still six Elder Dragons killing one wouldn't endanger the world, but I imagine that when we get further along Bangar's talks, we'll find out more about it (assuming Primordus is indeed "Jormag's enemy" which would be... sadly disappointing in all honesty).

    All races... does this include Elder Dragons?

    Well, Elder Dragon isn't really a species, and keep in mind, Jormag was saying this to Bangar - it wouldn't be much of a selling point to "become my champion" if Jormag was saying Elder Dragons fear things.

    What if Jormag has been hiding Eggs / Scions, and is protecting it's children against a bigger threat, maybe the feral and destructive Primordus, maybe something else.

    This would be a neat twist to the "Jormag's secret" conversation coming up in several weeks.

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The thing about the trailer speech is that Jormag was directing it - supposedly at Bangar - and when they're talking to someone they want to manipulate, they twist the truth to be what they want.

    Well, Elder Dragon isn't really a species, and keep in mind, Jormag was saying this to Bangar - it wouldn't be much of a selling point to "become my champion" if Jormag was saying Elder Dragons fear things.

    Yes, the speech itself was directed at Bangar (it was mentioned in a Dev talk or something else) - however, the thoughts were Jormags'. It is Jormag's point of view of the world as it is now, Jormag's fear, and it tries to manipulate others with it. Basically a kind of propaganda where others tell you what your biggest problem is.

  • @Rhywolver.8250 said:
    It is Jormag's point of view of the world as it is now, Jormag's fear, and it tries to manipulate others with it.

    Ehhh, I wouldn't call it Jormag's point of view of the world. Jormag is the dragon of persuasion - even if it only tells truths, it will always tell truths and points of view that benefit converting the receiver. There is no guarantee that Jormag believes its own words, nor any reason why such would be so. Nor would I consider it Jormag's fear - nothing in that speech really sounds like Jormag is fearful of something. Even Jormag's speech to the Commander via the Fraenir about the threat on the horizon doesn't sound fearful.

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  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Obviously it wanted to use us against Primordus. Through the shards achievement we knew that they had a huge clash and since they were each other's weakness. That's why it didn't kill us and try to seduce us.

    It's possible that the two dragons were duelling as competitive rivals, rather than open enemies. Jormag and Primordus have been at work for a long time and neither have appeared to attack each other in that period. Jormag's got a long memory, as evidenced by it's comments on the nature of the ED cycles, so if it took the injury dealt by Primordus that seriously, I expect that it would've taken revenge against the Fire dragon long before now.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey through
    Tyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

    And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey through
    Tyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

    And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

    I guess it would be foolhardly to rule out the idea that Jormag has beef with Primordus. Maybe Jormy intends to kill Prim, or maybe Jormy wants to wake Prim up before the DSD makes it's move.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey through
    Tyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

    And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

    I guess it would be foolhardly to rule out the idea that Jormag has beef with Primordus. Maybe Jormy intends to kill Prim, or maybe Jormy wants to wake Prim up before the DSD makes it's move.

    No I definitely get it, and I'm not against it. I'm just wondering if the same weakness would apply should one of them fall and the other dragons take on their domains. If this is a domain thing and not some inner-workings of the All that we'll never really understand. There may be something deeper given that the All needs at least 4 dragons alive before kitten hits the fan. I'm assuming they must be on opposing sides instead of 3 on 1 and 1 on the other. So the domains probably get shifted to balance it out.

    I'd also assume that killing Primordus right now would be pretty detrimental in that case, as it seems like it would just empower the DSD (who presumably already counters Aurene naturally) and potentially empower it above the levels of Aurene and Jormag. I would have to assume that either Primordus or DSD would have to be the next to be replaced and that killing Jormag simply isn't an option right now, as whatever potential replacement we find in Cantha may not balance things out if it's replacing Jormag.

    We're in a weird spot right now because we killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth who countered each other, and Aurene immediately assumed Kralk's role so we don't really know the rules about what would happen if we killed another one besides it needing at least 4 to remain balanced.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    It's possible that the two dragons were duelling as competitive rivals, rather than open enemies. Jormag and Primordus have been at work for a long time and neither have appeared to attack each other in that period. Jormag's got a long memory, as evidenced by it's comments on the nature of the ED cycles, so if it took the injury dealt by Primordus that seriously, I expect that it would've taken revenge against the Fire dragon long before now.

    It's entirely possible Jormag didn't make a move against Primordus yet because Primordus woke up 50 years earlier, so it would have a major head start on obtaining power and forces. Primordus also consumed six asuran underground cities all on par to Rata Sum, while Jormag merely got a few norn shrines, and was even injured shortly after waking. Jormag would probably be on the lower end, meanwhile Primordus had been slowly hampered and prevented from surfacing by the stone dwarves until the past couple decades, so may want to stock up on more power before making another move on Jormag.

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    Well, if Jormag has any scions capable of replacing Elder Dragons, that would be a good cause for Jormag to seek out Primordus' death - to have their own children then replace Primordus just as Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik.

    Or if ANet goes with the boring route of Aurene replacing all the Elder Dragons in the end, Jormag could see Aurene as a means to remove Primordus without the DSD getting its powers - thus would be why Jormag's been playing nice to Aurene. [Though I like the idea of Jormag wanting to use Aurene to remove its own magical Torment more, personally.]

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  • zolcor.2601zolcor.2601 Member ✭✭
    edited October 11, 2020

    I think Jormag wants to either take Bubbles's power of water to amplify himself, or to truly help Tyria survive the prophesized flooding of Tyria as said by the krait by freezing a portoin of Tyria's ocean, and then use the freezing tactic to finish Bubbles. After Jormag takes some or all of Bubbles's powers of water I would expect Jormag to turn on the Commander for good saying it has no further need of him/her. In the end I think Jormag is secretly playing for extra power.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    It's possible that the two dragons were duelling as competitive rivals, rather than open enemies. Jormag and Primordus have been at work for a long time and neither have appeared to attack each other in that period. Jormag's got a long memory, as evidenced by it's comments on the nature of the ED cycles, so if it took the injury dealt by Primordus that seriously, I expect that it would've taken revenge against the Fire dragon long before now.

    It's entirely possible Jormag didn't make a move against Primordus yet because Primordus woke up 50 years earlier, so it would have a major head start on obtaining power and forces. Primordus also consumed six asuran underground cities all on par to Rata Sum, while Jormag merely got a few norn shrines, and was even injured shortly after waking. Jormag would probably be on the lower end, meanwhile Primordus had been slowly hampered and prevented from surfacing by the stone dwarves until the past couple decades, so may want to stock up on more power before making another move on Jormag.

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    Well, if Jormag has any scions capable of replacing Elder Dragons, that would be a good cause for Jormag to seek out Primordus' death - to have their own children then replace Primordus just as Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik.

    Or if ANet goes with the boring route of Aurene replacing all the Elder Dragons in the end, Jormag could see Aurene as a means to remove Primordus without the DSD getting its powers - thus would be why Jormag's been playing nice to Aurene. [Though I like the idea of Jormag wanting to use Aurene to remove its own magical Torment more, personally.]

    But would having a scion replace Primordus even be a benefit to Jormag if they all go insane and get greedy in the end? I guess we're assuming Jormag would have control over the scion even after ascenscion? Or somekind of loyalty? It just seems like the torment would inevitably get to it as well and repeat the same cycle of them inevitably battling each other. Only then I feel like the scion would have an advantage over Jormag due to being its scion originally and having a connection/being more familiar with Jormag's magic? Maybe I'm missing something about the benefit of Jormag's scion taking over the role.

    I mean, I wouldn't expect the writers to go in either of these directions and inevitably we'll just kill them both. But I'm just not seeing the advantage either way.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zolcor.2601 said:
    I think Jormag wants to either take Bubbles's power of water to amplify himself, or to truly help Tyria survive the prophesized flooding of Tyria as said by the krait by freezing a portoin of Tyria's ocean, and then use the freezing tactic to finish Bubbles. After Jormag takes some or all of Bubbles's powers of water I would expect Jormag to turn on the Commander for good saying it has no further need of him/her. In the end I think Jormag is secretly playing for extra power.

    Also, what? What prophecy about flooding Tyria? I'll have to check the wiki on this.

  • @Bast.7253 said:

    @zolcor.2601 said:
    I think Jormag wants to either take Bubbles's power of water to amplify himself, or to truly help Tyria survive the prophesized flooding of Tyria as said by the krait by freezing a portoin of Tyria's ocean, and then use the freezing tactic to finish Bubbles. After Jormag takes some or all of Bubbles's powers of water I would expect Jormag to turn on the Commander for good saying it has no further need of him/her. In the end I think Jormag is secretly playing for extra power.

    Also, what? What prophecy about flooding Tyria? I'll have to check the wiki on this.

    The Krait priest class have a prophecy in which the entire planet gets flooded, bringing about Krait supremacy. Considering that the Krait priests have been altering their oral scriptures over the years the legitimacy of this prophecy should be taken with a grain of salt. And by grain, I mean one those cinder block sized bricks of salt that some water softeners used to use.

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  • @Bast.7253 said:
    But would having a scion replace Primordus even be a benefit to Jormag if they all go insane and get greedy in the end? I guess we're assuming Jormag would have control over the scion even after ascenscion? Or somekind of loyalty? It just seems like the torment would inevitably get to it as well and repeat the same cycle of them inevitably battling each other. Only then I feel like the scion would have an advantage over Jormag due to being its scion originally and having a connection/being more familiar with Jormag's magic? Maybe I'm missing something about the benefit of Jormag's scion taking over the role.

    I mean, I wouldn't expect the writers to go in either of these directions and inevitably we'll just kill them both. But I'm just not seeing the advantage either way.

    Kralkatorrik mentioned Aurene as "the first of her kind", so there will be basically more. It's not impossible if Jormag has Scions that can replace both themself and Primordus that Jormag is willing to end their own cycle and step back for the new generation, the "new kind" of elder dragons. However, if Primordus is the big threat to Jormag (and Tyria), they are aware of possibly dying in a fight against him.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Jormag has a frost and a fire themed scion, maybe with slightly shifted domains. The sentence "You fear the day your children no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame" is just too suspicious in my book and might be the one thing that Jormag really fears.

  • @Bast.7253 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    Well, if Jormag has any scions capable of replacing Elder Dragons, that would be a good cause for Jormag to seek out Primordus' death - to have their own children then replace Primordus just as Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik.

    Or if ANet goes with the boring route of Aurene replacing all the Elder Dragons in the end, Jormag could see Aurene as a means to remove Primordus without the DSD getting its powers - thus would be why Jormag's been playing nice to Aurene. [Though I like the idea of Jormag wanting to use Aurene to remove its own magical Torment more, personally.]

    But would having a scion replace Primordus even be a benefit to Jormag if they all go insane and get greedy in the end? I guess we're assuming Jormag would have control over the scion even after ascenscion? Or somekind of loyalty? It just seems like the torment would inevitably get to it as well and repeat the same cycle of them inevitably battling each other. Only then I feel like the scion would have an advantage over Jormag due to being its scion originally and having a connection/being more familiar with Jormag's magic? Maybe I'm missing something about the benefit of Jormag's scion taking over the role.

    I mean, I wouldn't expect the writers to go in either of these directions and inevitably we'll just kill them both. But I'm just not seeing the advantage either way.

    My line of thought would be that the scion would be enslaved to Jormag like any ol' icebrood, and even as an Elder Dragon would be bound to Jormag's will. In regards to Torment, first assuming that other Elder Dragons are afflicted by it, how it treated Kralkatorrik wasn't so much controlling it so much as being that constant devil on the shoulder telling Kralkatorrik to do these things to make itself suffer less. Since that rather relies on the Elder Dragon having free will, an Elder Dragon enslaved to another would suffer Torment, but still be controllable. In theory.

    I don't think that's the direction that ANet is going, though.

    @Rhywolver.8250 said:
    Kralkatorrik mentioned Aurene as "the first of her kind", so there will be basically more. It's not impossible if Jormag has Scions that can replace both themself and Primordus that Jormag is willing to end their own cycle and step back for the new generation, the "new kind" of elder dragons. However, if Primordus is the big threat to Jormag (and Tyria), they are aware of possibly dying in a fight against him.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Jormag has a frost and a fire themed scion, maybe with slightly shifted domains. The sentence "You fear the day your children no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame" is just too suspicious in my book and might be the one thing that Jormag really fears.

    I still believe Kralkatorrik's line about Aurene was just referring to her as a dragon that has a bond with mortals - even Glint and Vlast lacked such - as Glint's AI in her lair suggested that the bond with the Champion is what prevents magic from being a harmful burden to the dragon. Hence why all the talk that Scion and Champion were both necessary.

    About the line from the trailer, I personally don't think there's anything special about it. When you leave it in context, then the whole first portion is about Bangar (who the trailer dialogue is directed towards per ANet devs) fearing that the charr will stop "being charr". Basically, Jormag feeding Bangar's supremacy mentality.

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    I still believe Kralkatorrik's line about Aurene was just referring to her as a dragon that has a bond with mortals - even Glint and Vlast lacked such - as Glint's AI in her lair suggested that the bond with the Champion is what prevents magic from being a harmful burden to the dragon. Hence why all the talk that Scion and Champion were both necessary.

    That's possible, but wouldn't that mean that future dragons of Aurene's kind would have to undergo similar care, education and mentoring? Or would Jormag choose their own way of establishing such bond with mortals? I mean they were already choosing a champion with a free will.

    About the line from the trailer, I personally don't think there's anything special about it. When you leave it in context, then the whole first portion is about Bangar (who the trailer dialogue is directed towards per ANet devs) fearing that the charr will stop "being charr". Basically, Jormag feeding Bangar's supremacy mentality.

    I don't think Bangar loves anyone besides himself. Also, the line about the children doesn't even make sense when whispered to a traditional Charr like Bangar, who have the least natural bonds to relatives between the races, and has already lost his cub Ajax in a stupid conflict. We know of no other children right now (although Rytlock is a possible candidate).

  • @Rhywolver.8250 said:
    I don't think Bangar loves anyone besides himself. Also, the line about the children doesn't even make sense when whispered to a traditional Charr like Bangar, who have the least natural bonds to relatives between the races, and has already lost his cub Ajax in a stupid conflict. We know of no other children right now (although Rytlock is a possible candidate).

    Bangar certainly does seem to have cared about Almorra. Not enough to put aside his ambitions led by Jormag's whispers, but the emotion's certainly there, and is there when she taunts him about losing his son, Ajax.

    And I think you're taking the trailer dialogue about children and "feeling the warmth of flame" too literally. It wouldn't mean Bangar's biological children, but rather the dialogue is talking about all young charr in his community, and Bangar's fear that the charr species would die (or cease to be how he defines "charr") because of his own inaction.

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  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Rhywolver.8250 said:

    I don't think Bangar loves anyone besides himself. Also, the line about the children doesn't even make sense when whispered to a traditional Charr like Bangar, who have the least natural bonds to relatives between the races, and has already lost his cub Ajax in a stupid conflict. We know of no other children right now (although Rytlock is a possible candidate).

    My thoughts exactly, Rhywolver. I don't think anyone should believe the IBS trailer addresses Bangar unless either Bobby Stein or Tom Abernathy emphatically states as much in this thread. Each player must think for themselves and come to their own conclusions about the material presented to them thus far.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Rhywolver.8250 said:

    I don't think Bangar loves anyone besides himself. Also, the line about the children doesn't even make sense when whispered to a traditional Charr like Bangar, who have the least natural bonds to relatives between the races, and has already lost his cub Ajax in a stupid conflict. We know of no other children right now (although Rytlock is a possible candidate).

    My thoughts exactly, Rhywolver. I don't think anyone should believe the IBS trailer addresses Bangar unless either Bobby Stein or Tom Abernathy emphatically states as much in this thread. Each player must think for themselves and come to their own conclusions about the material presented to them thus far.

    You realize the person who said it was directed at Bangar was Julia Nardin. For clarity and the lazy, she was Narrative Lead. She might not work at ANet anymore, and while she wasn't Studio Narrative Director like Tom Abernathy or Associate Narrative Director like Bobby Stein, but I'm pretty sure the Story Editor and Narrative Lead would know something like this and be a credible source. She also went into quite a lot of details about Bangar, the trailer, and charr society. So she seems to have been educated enough in the lore to trust.

    This isn't a throwaway from a random dev going "yeah man the trailer was talking to bangar lol".

    Think for yourself, but don't ignore credible sources and solid facts.

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  • The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

    We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

    The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

    We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

    The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

    With how much the Spirits of the Wild are being dissected, I wouldn’t be surprised if they consumed Jormag’s energy that or Aurene absorbs it all and puts her into a sickness that leads us to going to Cantha in order to save her and find additional entities to take on the excess magic.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

    We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

    The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

    The main issue I see here is that we think that lesser beings, such as lesser dragons, centaurs, the Pale Tree, or anything else for that matter, is in a better position to manage torment than Elder Dragons. If you think that Zaithan was a problem, try giving it's torment to lesser beings. We know about one instance of that: the Margonites briefly shared Abaddon's torment. They didn't last long. Terrestrial spellcasters all but wiped them out at the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven. What a lesser being needs, to manage torment, is a unique biology suited to metabolising dirty magic. Unique biologies belong to creatures in the "god" category; creatures such as the Nightmare Incarnate.

    And we all know what trying to manage torment did for him, right? It put him in an early grave, dead before he even got started. This idea that everyone touts on about, that we can just "replace" Elder Dragons is as close to lunacy as terrestrial spellcasters' thinking gets.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

    We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

    The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

    The Ice Column Creature from GW1 is a pretty strong candidate for a scion, imo. Drakkar was too, but we know how that ended.

    As to the centaur theory. That seems too convenient to me. Especially since ANet's spent time and time again telling us that normal mortals can't even attempt to harness nearly enough power as Elder Dragons without going utterly and completely insane, and that even the Six Gods aren't capable of replacing the Elder Dragons in The All to prevent the world's destruction.

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

    We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

    The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

    The main issue I see here is that we think that lesser beings, such as lesser dragons, centaurs, the Pale Tree, or anything else for that matter, is in a better position to manage torment than Elder Dragons. If you think that Zaithan was a problem, try giving it's torment to lesser beings. We know about one instance of that: the Margonites briefly shared Abaddon's torment. They didn't last long. Terrestrial spellcasters all but wiped them out at the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven. What a lesser being needs, to manage torment, is a unique biology suited to metabolising dirty magic. Unique biologies belong to creatures in the "god" category; creatures such as the Nightmare Incarnate.

    And we all know what trying to manage torment did for him, right? It put him in an early grave, dead before he even got started. This idea that everyone touts on about, that we can just "replace" Elder Dragons is as close to lunacy as terrestrial spellcasters' thinking gets.

    There's no relation between the Realm of Torment and the Elder Dragons' torment, as far as we're told. And as such, no connection was ever made between Abaddon and the Elder Dragons or their (largely hypothetical still) Torment. So I'm not quite sure where you're coming from.

    As to the last sentence - replacing the Elder Dragons is the entire purpose of Glint's Legacy, and something we've done once with Aurene. We just need a suitable candidate (and all evidence points that they must be a "high dragon" (fanon term to differentiate from canonical "lesser dragons" term that includes skyscales and wyverns) like Glint and her scions are/were).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    As to the last sentence - replacing the Elder Dragons is the entire purpose of Glint's Legacy, and something we've done once with Aurene. We just need a suitable candidate (and all evidence points that they must be a "high dragon" (fanon term to differentiate from canonical "lesser dragons" term that includes skyscales and wyverns) like Glint and her scions are/were).

    Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

    She has literally been called such several times now.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

    She has literally been called such several times now.

    By mortals, maybe. Has a "fellow" Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

    She has literally been called such several times now.

    By mortals. Has a fellow Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

    Yeah, Aurene has...

    Aurene: I'm the youngest Elder Dragon, but I wasn't born yesterday.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

    She has literally been called such several times now.

    By mortals. Has a fellow Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

    Yeah, Aurene has...

    Aurene: I'm the youngest Elder Dragon, but I wasn't born yesterday.

    All that demonstrates is that Aurene thinks of herself as an Elder Dragon. That doesn't mean that she is. What criteria do you use to assess whether a dragon is an "Elder"?

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

    She has literally been called such several times now.

    By mortals. Has a fellow Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

    Yeah, Aurene has...

    Aurene: I'm the youngest Elder Dragon, but I wasn't born yesterday.

    All that demonstrates is that Aurene thinks of herself as an Elder Dragon. That doesn't mean that she is. What criteria do you use to assess whether a dragon is an "Elder"?

    Really? Even in the prologue release magazine Aurene was listed as one of the elder dragons? How is this news? lol Did you miss last living story season or are you just trolling?

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

    She has literally been called such several times now.

    By mortals. Has a fellow Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

    Yeah, Aurene has...

    Aurene: I'm the youngest Elder Dragon, but I wasn't born yesterday.

    All that demonstrates is that Aurene thinks of herself as an Elder Dragon. That doesn't mean that she is. What criteria do you use to assess whether a dragon is an "Elder"?

    The fact that she - a being far more knowledgeable about Elder Dragons and their place in the working of the World, whose entire existence was to become one - has told us directly that she is now one. She's even shown her power by over-writing the brand with hjer own positive corruption. The fact that she can hold the energy signatures from other Dragons and the World not blow up is another sign. She's keeping the All in balance.

    Apart from Jormag - who hasn't really focused much conversation on Aurene yet - there is no other more reliable source who could tell us than Aurene herself. Primordus hasn't shown any indication it can communicate yet and the DSD is only just recognised as existing, let alone being in a position to communicate. The other three were dead before she became one.

    Sometimes we don't need to overthink these things because the writers literally gift it to us. The story is nowhere near deep enough to explore alternative answers to things so clear cut

    She's an Elder Dragon

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

    One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    Aurene ate Kralkatorric. So she is now, based on the understanding of ascension in this game, whatever Kralkatorric was.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

    One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

    I gave it to you. She is holding the All in balance. For our purposes that is enough. We know it cannot be done if she wasn’t an elder dragon as the world would be out of balance and she’d be dead.

    This is well explained in the story

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

    One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

    I gave it to you. She is holding the All in balance. For our purposes that is enough. We know it cannot be done if she wasn’t an elder dragon as the world would be out of balance and she’d be dead.

    This is well explained in the story

    "The magics do not torment you" is a statement that piques my interest. Why is Aurene doing anything more than Kralkatorrik did? What if an Elder Dragon is chosen by tormented magic? Did tormented magic choose Aurene? No, it rejected her, stating that Aurene "betrays her own kind".

    The so-called Elder Dragon of .... what ???, is nothing more than a pawn in someone elses' much, much bigger game.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

    One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

    I gave it to you. She is holding the All in balance. For our purposes that is enough. We know it cannot be done if she wasn’t an elder dragon as the world would be out of balance and she’d be dead.

    This is well explained in the story

    "The magics do not torment you" is a statement that piques my interest. Why is Aurene doing anything more than Kralkatorrik did? What if an Elder Dragon is chosen by tormented magic? Did tormented magic choose Aurene? No, it rejected her, stating that Aurene "betrays her own kind".

    The so-called Elder Dragon of .... what ???, is nothing more than a pawn in someone elses' much, much bigger game.

    The first part isn’t fully known just yet beyond we know that Aurene was raised in different and specific way hence her behaviour. She’s also as yet not afflicted by the torment from years of magic accumulation.

    As for the last bit,that would be the worst possible, laziest, cheesiest plot twist they could come up with. Another secret super being more super than the existing super beings is not something I’d be happy to see or explore. I’d hope the writers were better than that

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Just a thought - what if the torment is somehow related to gods and the human race? For Aeons, the Dragons have awoken, consumed magic and fallen back to slumber. The last known Dragonrise before the actual one was 13,000 years ago. However, during the last hibernation and about 2,000 years ago six human gods appear in Cantha and bring their own domains of magic and humans with them. Some of the magic might be sealed in Bloodstones and this seems to be complex circumstances, but what if said magic caused the torment, just like a virus that was new to the world of Tyria.

    Aurene on the other hand was taken care of long before her birth by humans, she might have adapted to such a "virus" even before she hatched.

  • the torment was already there at the last dragonrise, also the bloodstone was also already there, the seer made it to seal up the last magic so the dragons would go to sleep (it is speculation that this is the reason why the elder dragons all here at the continent of tyria, because the bloodstone was here, this was the last part of magic seems left before it got sealed in the stone)

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    Your response about Aurene being knowledgeable about the cycle of the EDs is fair. However, you and I know that she remarked that she was learning about their role within the magical ecosystem.

    One thing that I think is clear here is that no one seems to have a good explanation for what constitutes an Elder Dragon. How would you explain the difference between an Elder Dragon and a lesser dragon?

    I gave it to you. She is holding the All in balance. For our purposes that is enough. We know it cannot be done if she wasn’t an elder dragon as the world would be out of balance and she’d be dead.

    This is well explained in the story

    "The magics do not torment you" is a statement that piques my interest. Why is Aurene doing anything more than Kralkatorrik did? What if an Elder Dragon is chosen by tormented magic? Did tormented magic choose Aurene? No, it rejected her, stating that Aurene "betrays her own kind".

    The so-called Elder Dragon of .... what ???, is nothing more than a pawn in someone elses' much, much bigger game.

    Believe she us the Elder Dragon of Light or Primastic Dragon as advised in some text as well as the Gw magazine.

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/september-04-2019/

  • @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Why do you think that Aurene is an Elder Dragon?

    She has literally been called such several times now.

    By mortals, maybe. Has a "fellow" Elder Dragon referred to her as such?

    Besides being confirmed by Tom Abernathy (and other devs), Jormag brings it up too during dialogue with Bangar, referring her to the "dragon of prisoms" just as Taimi's notes in the Icebrood Saga magazine did (while Aurene refers to Jormag as the "dragon of ice and persuasion" in return).

    The entire purpose of the plot from Season 3 to Season 4 was to make Aurene an Elder Dragon. You often deny various points of the canon lore facts, but this is beyond the norm. Makes me think you're just trolling.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    "The magics do not torment you" is a statement that piques my interest. Why is Aurene doing anything more than Kralkatorrik did? What if an Elder Dragon is chosen by tormented magic? Did tormented magic choose Aurene? No, it rejected her, stating that Aurene "betrays her own kind".

    The so-called Elder Dragon of .... what ???, is nothing more than a pawn in someone elses' much, much bigger game.

    Tormented magic isn't an entity, it's a result of consuming too much magic without a proper output for the burden.

    This was all confirmed by Tom Abernathy - whom you cite as a reliable source of lore - during Guild Chat Episode 85. Including Aurene being an Elder Dragon (I'd quote but that text is in major need of formatting).

    In theory, Glint explained why Aurene is different before she was ever called different in All or Nothing:

    Glint: You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price.
    Glint: Champion, this magic is powerful and dangerous. Share the burden so she can absorb it.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_&_Champion#In_Glint.27s_Lair

    Aurene is the "first of her kind" only because she bonds with mortals in a way that lets her share the burden of magic - something that all mortals suffer from, and as revealed in War Eternal even Elder Dragons can if they take in too much. And now Jormag is trying to mimick this with Ryland, perhaps because it too suffers from Torment and wants to "end it".

    @Rhywolver.8250 said:
    Just a thought - what if the torment is somehow related to gods and the human race? For Aeons, the Dragons have awoken, consumed magic and fallen back to slumber. The last known Dragonrise before the actual one was 13,000 years ago. However, during the last hibernation and about 2,000 years ago six human gods appear in Cantha and bring their own domains of magic and humans with them. Some of the magic might be sealed in Bloodstones and this seems to be complex circumstances, but what if said magic caused the torment, just like a virus that was new to the world of Tyria.

    Aurene on the other hand was taken care of long before her birth by humans, she might have adapted to such a "virus" even before she hatched.

    I recommend watching Guild Chat Episode 85 (or trying to decipher the raw text on wiki), as during that Tom Abernathy and other devs explain that Kralkatorrik was suffering from the conflicting magic that manifested as Kralkatorrik's Torment for eons - well before the previous dragonrise even. It has zero relation to the Six Gods and human race as they're far, far younger than the previous dragonrise.

    Also, the last known Dragonrise wasn't 13,000 years ago, but 11,000-3,000 years ago. Earliest dates are 10,000 BE, and latest dates are roughly 1,769 BE.

    Also also, the Bloodstone contains Tyrian magic, not the gods' magic. As far as we know, in fact, the first time the gods' magic got mixed into the world directly was Balthazar's death - unless Dhuum's defeat, the war with Abaddon, or the Jade Wind introduced such, but while likely we don't have explicit confirmation. Even Nightfall, though tainted by Abaddon, was ultimately just the Mists' magic (specifically Realm of Torment, which likely predates the Six Gods' arrival as beings other than the Six are related to the afterlives of Thyria).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With the talk of torment and the dragon rises, I begin to wonder if the scrapped concept of angels and demons, which was originally going to be the story of GW2, before the Elder Dragons, might have relevance. I’m wondering if this story may look at the prehistory of Tyria, the beginning of these elder dragon cycles as some sort of aftermath of an ancient conflict of long past, which resulted in the dragons needing to balance the all in the first place, possibly with the dragons vs these angels/demons entities.

  • I rather hope not. Angels and demons already have an established place in lore - angels being servants of Dwayna, while demons are entities created by malicious energies within the Mists. While it would make sense for demons to be relevant in ancient Tyrian history, not so much for angels.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the talk of torment and the dragon rises, I begin to wonder if the scrapped concept of angels and demons, which was originally going to be the story of GW2, before the Elder Dragons, might have relevance.

    That's my gut instinct, too. In my opinion, tormented magic is demonic in origin and nature. The whispers to which so many creatures refer - from Scarlet Briar (who states that she heard "whispers" from the forest) to the kodan suffering from The Hunger - are demons pressing upon vulnerable minds. Those who hear these whispers have been "chosen" to help treat tormented magic (which I believe is traumatised aether) that builds up within each sphere of elemental magic.

    I’m wondering if this story may look at the prehistory of Tyria, the beginning of these elder dragon cycles as some sort of aftermath of an ancient conflict of long past, which resulted in the dragons needing to balance the all in the first place, possibly with the dragons vs these angels/demons entities.

    I think that a plausible conflict of long past is the Great Battle at The Gates of Heaven. We briefly learn about this monumental battle in GW1:Nightfall and, as I see it, the GBaTGoH is that conflict to which Kormir refers in PoF.

    I'm thinking that the Elder Dragons each treat a different elemental sphere of magic.

    • Primordus treats tormented fire magic (i.e. aether traumatised in the process of being torn from the fabric of reality as a result of spell-casting)
    • "Bubbles" treats traumatised water magic
    • Zaithan treats traumatised aether (i.e. aether torn from itself in the process of casting a spell)
    • Jormag treats tormented air magic
    • Kralkatorrik treats traumatised time magic
    • Mordremoth treats tormented earth magic

    This is presently my approach to understanding how each Elder Dragon processes magic

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    With the talk of torment and the dragon rises, I begin to wonder if the scrapped concept of angels and demons, which was originally going to be the story of GW2, before the Elder Dragons, might have relevance.

    That's my gut instinct, too. In my opinion, tormented magic is demonic in origin and nature. The whispers to which so many creatures refer - from Scarlet Briar (who states that she heard "whispers" from the forest) to the kodan suffering from The Hunger - are demons pressing upon vulnerable minds. Those who hear these whispers have been "chosen" to help treat tormented magic (which I believe is traumatised aether) that builds up within each sphere of elemental magic.

    I’m wondering if this story may look at the prehistory of Tyria, the beginning of these elder dragon cycles as some sort of aftermath of an ancient conflict of long past, which resulted in the dragons needing to balance the all in the first place, possibly with the dragons vs these angels/demons entities.

    I think that a plausible conflict of long past is the Great Battle at The Gates of Heaven. We briefly learn about this monumental battle in GW1:Nightfall and, as I see it, the GBaTGoH is that conflict to which Kormir refers in PoF.

    I'm thinking that the Elder Dragons each treat a different elemental sphere of magic.

    • Primordus treats tormented fire magic (i.e. aether traumatised in the process of being torn from the fabric of reality as a result of spell-casting)
    • "Bubbles" treats traumatised water magic
    • Zaithan treats traumatised aether (i.e. aether torn from itself in the process of casting a spell)
    • Jormag treats tormented air magic
    • Kralkatorrik treats traumatised time magic
    • Mordremoth treats tormented earth magic

    This is presently my approach to understanding how each Elder Dragon processes magic

    Maybe Tyria always had a balancing issue or perhaps a conflict with demons or darkness or some other extraterrestrial force led to the influx of magic, that required the need of Elder Dragons. I’m just thinking that the previous plot that they wanted for GW2 and possibly Utopia could have some relevance in future story lines or the events of the distant past.