What do you guys think of Golemancer as the next engineer elite?

[Kodama.6453]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

I see where you're coming from, but there is a degree of "yes, but not really". Scrapper hammer is... well, basically it's a melee weapon with electricity-based aesthetics. In fact, I seem to recall there being evidence that it was originally themed more as a rocket hammer and got switched to electricity partway through development.

Gonna be honest here, one of the things that disappoints me with Guild Wars 2 professions is that there isn't really a 'pick out an enemy and blast them with lightning' approach, a la the classic GW1 air elementalist. At the moment, that isn't really there. Scrapper hammer, elementalist dagger, and elementalist dagger are all pretty much "melee weapon with electric animations". Elementalist staff chain lightning is a tickle (air on staff is more of a support attunement), which pretty much just leaves scepter air - and the long ramp-up time of Arc Lightning makes that feel like a tickle as well.

The frustrating thing is that there are a lot of environmental weapons for various hearts and events that do have the right feel, mostly asura but some charr (I think the device used in the Jenk Cutspecter event might even be a staff, but it's been a while since I've done it). At the moment, though, the closest to really getting that 'I'm going to strike my enemies down with lightning bolts' feel as that comes from a profession comes from mesmer greatsword and scepter. Practically speaking, I don't think it's ever going to come from GW2 elementalist because its playstyle is based so heavily on attunement swapping, but I think it could fit into engineer.

Axes sending out splashes like vapor blades... honestly, throwing out bladelike projectiles from a bladed weapon feels more like the sort of thing you'd expect from magic. Yes, holosmith does that, but holosmith is explicitly heavily technomagic. On the general principle of throwing out splashes of something, I think mace is a better fit, since most maces have a solid head that an engineer could build a reservoir into and make into an aspergillum. Which would give an iconic look for a weapon to be used with a plaguedoctor theme - make it look like one of those vapour dispensers that were used by historical plague doctors.

That said, splashing liquid out of something is... not exactly something that screams 1200 range to me. :p Delivering various concoctions via arrows with alchemical heads, though, could well fit. There's also the aspect that a lot of people are hoping for mace as a melee option for core, and if mace comes as an elite specialisation weapon, that'd kill that dream altogether.

I see that this is something you are missing in the game thematically, but I still think that it is basically ruled out for the engineer to happen.

Like I said, engineer already has the electric theme with scrapper. I am aware that scrapper went through changes in development, it even seems that scrapper was initially supposed to use the heat system they recycled for holosmith later. But the electric theme is now inherent for scrapper. And Anet should definitely avoid double dipping in the same thematics for elite specs.

And from the description of what you expect of such a lightning rod, it sounds like it should be a power weapon with alot of crit burst. Which sounds appropriate for the theme, hence why air magic for elementalist, for example, also is associated with crit.

But this is not what engineer needs. We already pointed out that engineer is in need of more condition damage. I don't see conditions work well with the lightning theme. The only condition I could thematically tie to lightning would be burning, but that's it.And conditions also would not really fit what you are looking for, it seems, since conditions usually also require some build up and are not blasting the enemy away immediately.

Elementalist or possibly revenant are more likely to deliver what you are looking for here, I guess.

About the mace: I personally would prefer the mace as our new elite spec weapon for 2 reasons. The first is that I think the mace can work really well thematically with the chemical theme. The other reason is that mace wasn't used for any elite spec to this point. I would like to see an elite spec with a mace, especially since heavy armor classes are currently the only able to wield maces, engineer is just my personal preference, but other classes might also be candidates for a mace elite spec. And I kinda doubt at this point that Anet will introduce new core weapons to engineer....

I would like to avoid bows, tho....If our next elite spec really is condition based (as it should be), then I think it would be great for the engineer to get a singlehanded weapon to dual wield (which means either axe, mace, or dagger).

Engineer has a really limited weapon arsenal, actually the smallest in the entire game with just 3 core weapon sets (rifle, pistol/shield, pistol/pistol).Giving us a twohanded weapon again would just provide us 1 new weapon set for the engineer.But giving us a singlehanded weapon to dual wield in a condition based spec potentially gives us 4 new weapon combinations, illustrated with the example of an axe:axe/pistol, axe/shield, axe/axe, pistol/axe.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

I see where you're coming from, but there is a degree of "yes, but not really". Scrapper hammer is... well, basically it's a melee weapon with electricity-based aesthetics. In fact, I seem to recall there being evidence that it was originally themed more as a rocket hammer and got switched to electricity partway through development.

Gonna be honest here, one of the things that disappoints me with Guild Wars 2 professions is that there isn't really a 'pick out an enemy and blast them with lightning' approach, a la the classic GW1 air elementalist. At the moment, that isn't really there. Scrapper hammer, elementalist dagger, and elementalist dagger are all pretty much "melee weapon with electric animations". Elementalist staff chain lightning is a tickle (air on staff is more of a support attunement), which pretty much just leaves scepter air - and the long ramp-up time of Arc Lightning makes that feel like a tickle as well.

The frustrating thing is that there are a lot of environmental weapons for various hearts and events that do have the right feel, mostly asura but some charr (I think the device used in the Jenk Cutspecter event might even be a staff, but it's been a while since I've done it). At the moment, though, the closest to really getting that 'I'm going to strike my enemies down with lightning bolts' feel as that comes from a profession comes from mesmer greatsword and scepter. Practically speaking, I don't think it's ever going to come from GW2 elementalist because its playstyle is based so heavily on attunement swapping, but I think it could fit into engineer.

Axes sending out splashes like vapor blades... honestly, throwing out bladelike projectiles from a bladed weapon feels more like the sort of thing you'd expect from magic. Yes, holosmith does that, but holosmith is explicitly heavily technomagic. On the general principle of throwing out splashes of something, I think mace is a better fit, since most maces have a solid head that an engineer could build a reservoir into and make into an aspergillum. Which would give an iconic look for a weapon to be used with a plaguedoctor theme - make it look like one of those vapour dispensers that were used by historical plague doctors.

That said, splashing liquid out of something is... not exactly something that screams 1200 range to me. :p Delivering various concoctions via arrows with alchemical heads, though, could well fit. There's also the aspect that a lot of people are hoping for mace as a melee option for core, and if mace comes as an elite specialisation weapon, that'd kill that dream altogether.

I see that this is something you are missing in the game thematically, but I still think that it is basically ruled out for the engineer to happen.

Like I said, engineer already has the electric theme with scrapper. I am aware that scrapper went through changes in development, it even seems that scrapper was initially supposed to use the heat system they recycled for holosmith later. But the electric theme is now inherent for scrapper. And Anet should definitely avoid double dipping in the same thematics for elite specs.

And from the description of what you expect of such a lightning rod, it sounds like it should be a power weapon with alot of crit burst. Which sounds appropriate for the theme, hence why air magic for elementalist, for example, also is associated with crit.

But this is not what engineer needs. We already pointed out that engineer is in need of more condition damage. I don't see conditions work well with the lightning theme. The only condition I could thematically tie to lightning would be burning, but that's it.And conditions also would not really fit what you are looking for, it seems, since conditions usually also require some build up and are not blasting the enemy away immediately.

Elementalist or possibly revenant are more likely to deliver what you are looking for here, I guess.

Yeah, at this stage I don't think it's really suitable for the next one, because there are more important things than another power spec.

That said, I don't think repeating the electricity theme for engineer if we were to ever get to four is that out of the question. In part because scrapper really isn't electricity-themed so much as having a general tech theme that happens to include electricity. More significantly, lightning is an engineer theme in general - Static Shot, Static Shield, Static Discharge, lots of things with 'static' in general - for all that some other professions have lightning fields mechanically, it's really only elementalist and engineer you see throwing actual lightning around (with the caveat that a lot of mesmer effects look like lightning even though they technically aren't and, conversely, there are hints that some guardian effects are actually lightning even if you can't tell by looking at it). Gonna be honest here, a static discharge build feels more like a lightning specialist than anything that an elementalist can do, even if the weapon you're packing is a rifle (and if you're running a static discharge build, then rifle is probably one of the better weapons to be using with it from a mechanical perspective).

Elementalist is certainly another possibility, and intuitively the more natural one... and they're in a similar boat to engineer that they could really do with an elite specialisation that isn't oriented towards close combat. As I said earlier, though, any elementalist weapon is going to carry the assumption that you'll be attunement-dancing to get the most out of it, and I don't think that's really conducive to what I have in mind. There is a degree to which, in some ways, engineer can act as a refuge for GW1 elementalists who prefer to specialise: grenades for AoE, bombs for PBAoE, and so on. While engineer also rewards cycling through different kits, it's a bit less hostile to just sitting on one weapon/kit if that's the right tool for the job.

Revenant is a possibility... in the sense that pretty much anything is theoretically possible with revenant. In practice, though, I don't think there's any lightning-blaster that's sufficiently impressive to become a revenant legend without going out the other side and having something that's probably too powerful like Dwayna or Kralkatorrik. Maybe they could go Optimus Caliph and have a Legendary Mursaat Stance, but I think there are candidates that are higher on the priority list.

In the meantime, I'll probably keep using mesmer as a stand in when that inclination strikes me.

About the mace: I personally would prefer the mace as our new elite spec weapon for 2 reasons. The first is that I think the mace can work really well thematically with the chemical theme. The other reason is that mace wasn't used for any elite spec to this point. I would like to see an elite spec with a mace, especially since heavy armor classes are currently the only able to wield maces, engineer is just my personal preference, but other classes might also be candidates for a mace elite spec. And I kinda doubt at this point that Anet will introduce new core weapons to engineer....

Another thing to add to the consideration, which I was going to comment in my previous post and forgot, is that mace is an uncommonly used weapon. Only the heavy professions use mace at the moment.

I would like to avoid bows, tho....If our next elite spec really is condition based (as it should be), then I think it would be great for the engineer to get a singlehanded weapon to dual wield (which means either axe, mace, or dagger).

Engineer has a really limited weapon arsenal, actually the smallest in the entire game with just 3 core weapon sets (rifle, pistol/shield, pistol/pistol).Giving us a twohanded weapon again would just provide us 1 new weapon set for the engineer.But giving us a singlehanded weapon to dual wield in a condition based spec potentially gives us 4 new weapon combinations, illustrated with the example of an axe:axe/pistol, axe/shield, axe/axe, pistol/axe.

Valid point, but I'm not sure ArenaNet thinks that way. They did give dual weapons to the profession that already had the most choice, after all.

Thematically, I think mace would be perfect for a 'plaguedoctor' theme, for reasons given above. However, I don't see it being a 'long range' weapon. Engineers are rooted in technology, after all, albeit technology in a magical world - this allows for some suspension of disbelief, but I think an engineer swishing acids and poisons around like a waterbender would be a bit too far. The most realistic option would probably be throwing maces that have modified heads designed to release something nasty on impact, but thrown weapons are still limited to around 900 range. On the gripping hand, though, if the range is 900 but all the skills are just as effective at range 800 as they are at range 100, that's still a step up from the current set in terms of providing stand-off capability. The tricky part would be making it not feel too much like grenades.

(Especially since, y'know, from a thematic perspective, I'd really like ArenaNet to find a way to get engineers to just throw one grenade at a time again. I know how we got to the position of engineers throwing three grenades by default, and I know each step made sense in the context of the step before it, but it still looks silly. Maybe make it have three concentric explosions with expanding radii or something to maintain the trait interaction and generate a dropoff in effect with distance from the point of impact.)

[Kodama.6453]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

Revenant is a possibility... in the sense that pretty much anything is theoretically possible with revenant. In practice, though, I don't think there's any lightning-blaster that's sufficiently impressive to become a revenant legend without going out the other side and having something that's probably too powerful like Dwayna or Kralkatorrik. Maybe they could go Optimus Caliph and have a Legendary Mursaat Stance, but I think there are candidates that are higher on the priority list.

I think the very next expansion, bringing us to Cantha, has some opportunity for a lightning based elite spec for the revenant.2 come to my mind right now: Master Togo and Kuunavang.

Master Togo has been a ritualist, something that would actually be really appropriate for a revenant elite spec. Ritualists have been masters of the mists, they were able to communicate with the souls in the mists and look into them by blindfolding themselves. Which is even something revenants do, too. Revenants learning more about controlling the mists from the ancient traditions of Canthan riualists seems like in my opinion.

And ritualist's damage spells have all been lightning based! Considering that they won't recycle the spirit mechanic, since that is already done with renegade, why not recycle the lightning strikes from the ritualist instead? Especially since their lightning spells also oftenly were intertwined with resource management. Maybe they could give such a spec a mechanic to charge up their energy?

The second one, Kuunavang, has been a saltspray dragon. These have been elementalists in the first game utilising fire and lightning magic.I have to admit, this one is less likely since revenant already has a dragon stance with Glint. Only chance would be if they would rephrase it into something like "legendary serpent stance" or something.

(Especially since, y'know, from a thematic perspective, I'd really like ArenaNet to find a way to get engineers to just throw one grenade at a time again. I know how we got to the position of engineers throwing three grenades by default, and I know each step made sense in the context of the step before it, but it still looks silly. Maybe make it have three concentric explosions with expanding radii or something to maintain the trait interaction and generate a dropoff in effect with distance from the point of impact.)

Sounds like a good idea, at least mechanically. Would have the side effect to get rid of the rng aspect of the skill by allowing you to get best results out of the skills with proper aiming instead of throwing them and praying that the grenades all hit your target.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

Revenant is a possibility... in the sense that pretty much

anything

is theoretically possible with revenant. In practice, though, I don't think there's any lightning-blaster that's sufficiently impressive to become a revenant legend without going out the other side and having something that's probably

too

powerful like Dwayna or Kralkatorrik. Maybe they could go Optimus Caliph and have a Legendary Mursaat Stance, but I think there are candidates that are higher on the priority list.

I think the very next expansion, bringing us to Cantha, has some opportunity for a lightning based elite spec for the revenant.2 come to my mind right now: Master Togo and Kuunavang.

Master Togo has been a ritualist, something that would actually be really appropriate for a revenant elite spec. Ritualists have been masters of the mists, they were able to communicate with the souls in the mists and look into them by blindfolding themselves. Which is even something revenants do, too. Revenants learning more about controlling the mists from the ancient traditions of Canthan riualists seems like in my opinion.

And ritualist's damage spells have all been lightning based! Considering that they won't recycle the spirit mechanic, since that is already done with renegade, why not recycle the lightning strikes from the ritualist instead? Especially since their lightning spells also oftenly were intertwined with resource management. Maybe they could give such a spec a mechanic to charge up their energy?

Personally, I tend to put Togo into the 'not significant enough' basket.

If I recall correctly, when Stronghold was being promoted, the Stronghold heroes were said to be echoes of individuals who were prominent enough to leave an echo, but not so prominent as to be a revenant legend. The common thread is that they all seem to be part of a story dominated by some other figure rather than being the one driving the story. Turai is significant... because he took down Palawa Joko (but not permanently). Nika is significant... because she helped take down Shiro. Grymm Svaard is significant... because he was Cobiah's henchman (well, the relationship was a bit more complicated than that, but the short form is that he's part of Cobiah's legend rather than being the legendary figure on his own). Tybalt is part of the Whispers Commander's story.

Togo, I think, falls into this category. His main claim to fame was helping to take down Shiro the second time around... but this makes him part of a story that was ultimately about Shiro. Sure, he did some impressive things beforehand, but I think it's fair to say that his overall impact was, at best, on the same level as Turai Ossa.

The second one, Kuunavang, has been a saltspray dragon. These have been elementalists in the first game utilising fire and lightning magic.I have to admit, this one is less likely since revenant already has a dragon stance with Glint. Only chance would be if they would rephrase it into something like "legendary serpent stance" or something.

And she uses lightning when you fight her corrupted form... but the problem there is as you state. She's a dragon. I don't think we're going to see a second dragon in the lineup, especially at a stage when it would be two out of three elite specialisations.

There's also the aspect that she'll probably play a role in the story, and having a revenant fuelled by the legend of an entity that's still playing a direct role in the story would be... awkward.

Personally, for what it's worth, at this point my bet would be Asgeir. Use the Icebrood Saga to fill us in (more) on who he really was, then explain the elite specialisation as norn revenants learning how to channel him as a result of these revelations. There probably won't be revenants in Cantha per se (even if ritualists are similar in a number of ways) so like renegade in Path of Fire, it'd make sense for the revenant legend to be based on something Tyrian rather than necessarily be Canthan.

(Especially since, y'know, from a thematic perspective, I'd

really

like ArenaNet to find a way to get engineers to just throw one grenade at a time again. I

know

how we got to the position of engineers throwing three grenades by default, and I know each step made sense in the context of the step before it, but it still looks silly. Maybe make it have three concentric explosions with expanding radii or something to maintain the trait interaction and generate a dropoff in effect with distance from the point of impact.)

Sounds like a good idea, at least mechanically. Would have the side effect to get rid of the rng aspect of the skill by allowing you to get best results out of the skills with proper aiming instead of throwing them and praying that the grenades all hit your target.

Yeah, that thought had crossed my mind. Strictly speaking the current system still means that the expected damage is higher the closer the enemy is to the center of the reticle, but it comes through a randomly generated Venn diagram rather than being in any way predictable.

[Kodama.6453]

@"draxynnic.3719" said:

Personally, I tend to put Togo into the 'not significant enough' basket.[..]Togo, I think, falls into this category. His main claim to fame was helping to take down Shiro the second time around... but this makes him part of a story that was ultimately about Shiro. Sure, he did some impressive things beforehand, but I think it's fair to say that his overall impact was, at best, on the same level as Turai Ossa.

Fair enough, but thinking about it, you can actually extend the ritualist theme past Togo. There have been many heroic ritualists in Cantha's past and we know that Cantha tends to worship their ancient heroes (like how ritualists are using the ashes of their heroes for powerful spells).

And not utilising ritualists in some way for revenant would be weird for me. Ritualists basically were revenants before revenants became a thing, they share methods (blindfolding), they are drawing their power from the same source (the mists) and all. Only difference is that ritualists didn't actively travel the mists as far as we know.Like, considering that revenants are a fairly new profession and ritualists were practicing their magic for thousands of years, surely there is one thing or another ritualists could teach a revenant?

They could simply create a heroic ritualist they give us as an elite spec. They already did something similar with Kalla, she was coming out of the blue, too. No one expected her as a significant enough character to become the next legend.

Could also have some really interesting interactions. Imagine, for example, to summon a powerful ritualist from the ranks of the ministry of purity. The ones responsible for outcasting all non-humans in Cantha, one guy that is deeply racist. And then he gets summoned by a Charr and is all like "oh HELL NO! Don't you dare to use my power you filthy straycat!!!".

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I'd say, Longbow with a condition focus. Get an F5 that is a quick ground targeted blast with a lowish CD, it doesn't have to be a lot of damage just there for the blast finisher. AA can be a chain that deals bleed, then poison, then confusion via 'alchemical' canisters on the arrows. All the arrows would be a quicker flight time like with Ranger on all skills. Skills 2-5 would have an initial condi effect, and leave behind a field that pulses condi for 4s, again an 'alchemical' canister on the arrow. The F5 would blast all fields where it lands, to a maximum of 5 fields. Traits would be to augment blast finishers, augment the utility type gained, or increase personal DPS in some sort of way. Depending on the traits to augment the blast finisher you'd get extended Auras, more boons, or more condi. You'd then have a long range condi DPS that provides decent support in their rotation via blasting 5 different fields at once. Blow all your longbow fields, blast them all, use mortar kit, create more fields, then blast them all again, rotate between LB and mortar.

[draxynnic.3719]

They have similarities, but I think there is a big difference in their methodology. Ritualists seemed to act in a fairly deliberate and scholarly manner, interacting with relatively weak spirits and keeping them at arm's length. Revenants, meanwhile, look for the most powerful echoes out there and dive right in, and their abilities pretty much all seem to come from what they've learned from those echoes (even most weapon skills are themed that way, it's just that they're relatively low-power skills that the revenant can use with their own magic once they've learned them rather than needing to channel a specific legend to access them).

So... a ritualist might be able to teach a revenant a few weapon skills, but going beyond that, I think the differences in their approaches would be just too different, even if the energies involves are similar. It'd be like a fire elementalist trying to teach a berserker - sure, the berserker is probably using fire magic at an instinctual level, and maybe the elementalist could help the berserker refine some of what the berserker is already doing, but the berserker probably isn't going to be calling meteor showers any time soon. Of course, the revenant could shortcut the process by finding a ritualist legend... but that could apply to finding a legend of any profession, and the known ritualist historical figures don't seem to be that impactful.

And thus far, ArenaNet hasn't introduced a revenant legend that wasn't known to the player base before they were introduced as a legend. Kalla may have attracted a few "who" responses, but she was also known by enough people to elicit a few "okay, but why is her weapon a shortbow when her statue is holding a greatsword" responses.

Speaking of Kalla, there's the other issue with the prospect of a ritualist legend... mechanically speaking, Kalla is already there. Her weapon is a ranged weapon themed around making use of the Mists (the whole "firing through portals" thing), and her legend skills involve summoning spirits to attack and disrupt enemies or boost allies. That sounds pretty much like what a ritualist legend would do to me, and is probably what the general idea was - a means of getting a ritualist feel into the revenant at a time when the devs weren't sure they were ever going to go to Cantha. I don't think we really need a second Kalla - I'd prefer something new.

Ritualist, if it's used for elite specialisations at all (after all, it's now been well established that professions that are no longer playable are generally still around) is probably more likely to be attached to another profession. Guardian canonically has some ritualist in it according to Sea of Sorrows. Necromancer could be a good fit, although part of me wonders if that was what Scourge was supposed to be. Ranger and mesmer could even be made to work (ranger might get something similar to venoms as a modern form of weapon spirits, while perhaps mesmers could have their phantasms replaced with actual phantoms as they conjure spirits to add extra oomph to these skills).

[Vagrant.7206]

I mean, if you want to use scepter as a blowgun, it could fit the alchemical theme. Channel your inner Hylek.

:tongue:

[juno.1840]

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Several things engineer could use:

• A weapon intended to be used at max range. Pistols and rifle are both best used in close to mid range, no weapon is designed for max range. Our ranged kits are also best used in close range due to their laboriously long flight times.
• A core, main-hand power weapon.
• A support-oriented spec.
• A means of dealing with projectile hate.

What engineer does not need:

• More AI. Gyros were absolute garbage until they deleted the AI, and turrets are still a joke.
• More melee-focused specs. Scrapper and holo are both melee-focused. Most core weapons and kits are optimally used in close range.

Several ideas spring to mind to fit these themes:

• An alchemist elite spec (using harpoon gun), focused on team support through transmutations and concoctions.
• A sound-based elite spec (using shield mainhand or shortbow) that provides support through shouts, chants, or a boombox, cuz why not.
• An elite spec based off of the Green Arrow (using shortbow or longbow) that uses specialty arrows, with unique devices for team support/dps.

This is pretty accurate. I second "projectile hate" as there no >= 900 ranged options that avoid reflection.

I hesitate at "support oriented spec" because right now support engi is in the meta with scrapper. It's almost op with its cleansing, utility (stab, super speed, stealth, barrier, etc.), and healing. I'm not sure how you'd top that with a support-oriented spec in such a way that the meta would change away from the current build.

Some mentioned earlier a condi-based elite spec, possibly poison themed. That does sound interesting. I think poison is an under-utilized condition. It's just that condis are so easily countered right now in competitive game modes.

[Kodama.6453]

@juno.1840 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Several things engineer

could use

:

• A weapon intended to be used at max range. Pistols and rifle are both best used in close to mid range, no weapon is designed for max range. Our ranged kits are also best used in close range due to their laboriously long flight times.
• A
  core
  , main-hand power weapon.
• A support-oriented spec.
• A means of dealing with projectile hate.

What engineer

does not need

:

• More AI. Gyros were absolute garbage until they deleted the AI, and turrets are still a joke.
• More melee-focused specs. Scrapper and holo are both melee-focused. Most core weapons and kits are optimally used in close range.

Several ideas spring to mind to fit these themes:

• An alchemist elite spec (using harpoon gun), focused on team support through transmutations and concoctions.
• A sound-based elite spec (using shield mainhand or shortbow) that provides support through shouts, chants, or a boombox, cuz why not.
• An elite spec based off of the Green Arrow (using shortbow or longbow) that uses
  specialty arrows
  , with unique devices for team support/dps.

This is pretty accurate. I second "projectile hate" as there no >= 900 ranged options that avoid reflection.

I hesitate at "support oriented spec" because right now support engi is in the meta with scrapper. It's almost op with its cleansing, utility (stab, super speed, stealth, barrier, etc.), and healing. I'm not sure how you'd top that with a support-oriented spec in such a way that the meta would change away from the current build.

Some mentioned earlier a condi-based elite spec, possibly poison themed. That does sound interesting. I think poison is an under-utilized condition. It's just that condis are so easily countered right now in competitive game modes.

But you have to ask yourself: why is scrapper played as a support?

Scrapper is not designed to be a support class. They are meant to be frontline bruisers, Anet has stated that much several times and you see that reflected in the trait line.Scrapper is taken as a support because of the lack of a proper support e-spec, since gyros provide at least some supportive value. And these gyros are actually the only reason why scrapper is taken for the support role at all.

Look at the scrapper trait line and the traits used in the healing scrapper build. It's grandmaster minor trait, impact savant, is absolute a dead trait. This build basically deals no damage whatsoever, since you are camping med kit for healing the whole time. Getting 15% of strike damage converted into barrier is useless if you are not dealing any strike damage in the first place. Other traits, like damage dampener and adaptive armor, are just taken because they are at least a bit useful, even if they are absolutely selfish and increase the scrapper's survivability only.

The weapon (hammer) is also not utilised, since it provides no supportive value. Shield is taken for that and pistol as our only option on scrapper to pair the shield with.

Scrapper is taken as a replacement for a proper support elite spec, since core just has 2 support trait lines in core (inventions and alchemy). Once we get an actual support elite spec which traits that help us to provide boons and healing to our team, scrapper will get abandoned as a support. Which is fine, what Anet should do is making changes to the game which help tanks like scrapper, daredevil and others to be actually desired for their intended playstyle instead of having to migrate into the support or dps playstyles because they got no other choice.

[juno.1840]

I hear what you're saying, but support scrapper is currently meta. How are you going to top it (with a pure-support elite) without making that elite over powered?

You probably can't, so it'll have to come with a nerf to scrapper, or a nerf to inventions and alchemy (because that's a lot of what makes a support scrapper good). The other half is the gyros. Will anyone give up Purge Gyro, Bulwark Gyro, and Stealth Gyro? Seriously, will they? They are amazing for support, especially when traited for range and superspeed, and accompanied by inventions and alchemy.

Obviously this is WvW focused -- if we're talking raids I don't really give two-kittens because that's a small percentage of the player base and we shouldn't be balancing the game around raids (end rant).

[Kodama.6453]

@juno.1840 said:I hear what you're saying, but support scrapper is currently meta. How are you going to top it (with a pure-support elite) without making that elite over powered?

You probably can't, so it'll have to come with a nerf to scrapper, or a nerf to inventions and alchemy (because that's a lot of what makes a support scrapper good). The other half is the gyros. Will anyone give up Purge Gyro, Bulwark Gyro, and Stealth Gyro? Seriously, will they? They are amazing for support, especially when traited for range and superspeed, and accompanied by inventions and alchemy.

Obviously this is WvW focused -- if we're talking raids I don't really give two-kittens because that's a small percentage of the player base and we shouldn't be balancing the game around raids (end rant).

I think that can get accomplished by shifting the focus.As you said, scrapper's support comes from effects like bulwark gyro, sneak gyro, purge gyro.

A new primary support elite spec could give us better boon share, for example. In PvE raids, the only boons which really matter alot are might, quickness, and alacrity. If you give this new e-spec the ability to share quickness with a group of players on top of improving the healing it puts out to the team, then I think it can be a proper replacement for a support.

And while core engineer's healing is quite strong thanks to inventions and alchemy, I think it has every right to be one of the most potent healers in the game. We have to consider that unlike other healers like druid or scourge, engineer's give up their own damage completely. You are camping the med kit for the healing, which even replaces your auto attack with healing instead of dealing damage. A healing engineer most likely has the lowest dps output in the entire game, lower than any other support spec. I think they deserve to be top healers in that case.

And while you might not care about raids, Anet tries to balance the game for all game mode, including high end PvE. Currently, the only role engineer is viable in high end PvE is as a dps with holosmith. You are not a meta tank nor a meta healer with scrapper in this environment, you get outclassed there. And the dps role can get filled by literally any class in the game, they all have viable dps builds.

Giving us the option to support in high end PvE if we want to sounds fair for me. I can also say that we shouldn't balance around WvW, btw, since the big majority of players is located in open world PvE. But that isn't fair. Raids, WvW, PvP, all these environments should get considered for balancing, not just your own personal favourite.

[draxynnic.3719]

I'd be curious to see the figures on large-scale WvW as well. Sure, you SEE a lot of people when a zerg forms, but how does that compare to the actual player base? And when it comes to high-end PvE, it's not just raids any more - strikes and higher-tier fractals can also benefit from support.

But one possible direct answer to your question is that the hypothetical support elite spec wouldn't necessarily have access to a group stability/projectile hate combo (Defense Field). It almost certainly wouldn't be able to throw out group Superspeed like a scrapper can. I'd be very surprised if it has an equivalent to Sneak Gyro. It'd probably be more fragile than the heal scrapper in general since it won't have so many traits dedicated to its own survival (although it would probably have some durability simply through being able to self-support a bit, as all support builds do). It's probably not going to have a means of stomping foes at a distance.

A lot of that is stuff that can be useful in WvW, but... generally isn't all that important in high-end PvE. So you might well see a situation where the heal scrapper remains meta in WvW, but the new elite specialisation gives engineer more opportunities in high-end PvE. Basically a case of 'take what you need for the content you're in'.

[Dante.1508]

I'd be down for it, most definitely.

[MrForz.1953]

Hm, Golemancer. Even if that became true I'm not sure you'll have the fantasy you desire.

[bambi.6214]

Boring, uninspired idea. We've been dealing with golemancers since the begining of GW2. And nobody wants AI specs. And "hopping in your golem power-suit and getting new skills" is basically another Holo.

Beside that, 3rd elite spec will most likely follow the PoF trend of making elite specs lore based. And there ain't no Asuras in Cantha.

[Zzik.5873]

Yes yes I want a elite spec minion master with golem!!!! If the spec would give us staff and boon support I would be more than happy!!!

[Dante.1508]

If the Golems are like inquest champions they'd be super useful.. None of this ranger pet dead in seconds things though.

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

@juno.1840 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Several things engineer

could use

:

• A weapon intended to be used at max range. Pistols and rifle are both best used in close to mid range, no weapon is designed for max range. Our ranged kits are also best used in close range due to their laboriously long flight times.
• A
  core
  , main-hand power weapon.
• A support-oriented spec.
• A means of dealing with projectile hate.

What engineer

does not need

:

• More AI. Gyros were absolute garbage until they deleted the AI, and turrets are still a joke.
• More melee-focused specs. Scrapper and holo are both melee-focused. Most core weapons and kits are optimally used in close range.

Several ideas spring to mind to fit these themes:

• An alchemist elite spec (using harpoon gun), focused on team support through transmutations and concoctions.
• A sound-based elite spec (using shield mainhand or shortbow) that provides support through shouts, chants, or a boombox, cuz why not.
• An elite spec based off of the Green Arrow (using shortbow or longbow) that uses
  specialty arrows
  , with unique devices for team support/dps.

This is pretty accurate. I second "projectile hate" as there no >= 900 ranged options that avoid reflection.

I hesitate at "support oriented spec" because right now support engi is in the meta with scrapper. It's almost op with its cleansing, utility (stab, super speed, stealth, barrier, etc.), and healing. I'm not sure how you'd top that with a support-oriented spec in such a way that the meta would change away from the current build.

Some mentioned earlier a condi-based elite spec, possibly poison themed. That does sound interesting. I think poison is an under-utilized condition. It's just that condis are so easily countered right now in competitive game modes.

pretty much this. thumb up