Exzen.2976

This ^^

If you read the rest of my posts in this topic, then you would know that I said I don't think tempest or catalyst should have anything removed and it would be better to buff core ele. I've said it twice if I remember rightly. If you're going to go through the trouble of quoting me, at least read what I say and don't take things out of context. Anet added to core Rev. Theres no reason they couldn't add something to core ele. What that might be, anet can decide.

Trade off for using an elite spec over core is a completely different topic to balance of scourge for example. There should be a trade off for using elite specs over core so they aren't just a straight upgrade. It's a really simple idea. Balance of specs like scourge are a different topic. Does it have a trade off? Yes. Should it be brought in line with other specs? Absolutely. But it should have no bearing whatsoever on this conversation.

I kinda get your point... but there is honestly never a reason to play core ele over tempest. Tempest can also have the flexibility to hop between the elements. If you choose not to use the overloads, you can do exactly the same as a core ele, which actually gives you even more flexibility than core ele. Tempest currently doesn't have a trade off. And I think nearly everyone can agree core ele could use some love.

Ha, so it has a cooldown after using a skill that you can choose to either use or not use? Nah, that's not a trade off at all. It is a straight buff over core ele. Just to reiterate, I do not want tempest nerfed, just pointing out a fact. Buff core ele!

As someone else said, the trade off should be vs the core spec - gain something lose something. Tempest doesn't have a trade off so there's literally no reason not to run tempest over core ele. Weaver kinda does, with not being able to freely switch between attunements. I'm not suggesting that we should nerf tempest or catalyst into the ground lol, just pointing out a fact. If anything, the best solution would be to give core ele something that Tempest/Catalyst doesn't have access to. I believe they did something like this for core Rev? I'm not in disagreement with you that there are plenty of other specs with a reasonable trade off too (all elite specs should have them), you can post your complaints about these in their own profession sub forums if you want. Ele balance vs other professions shouldn't come into a discussion about trade offs for e-specs, as its a very different issue.

To be fair, Tempest has no trade off either.

Scepter dagger catalyst does look interesting. I will be trying it in beta

I feel very meh about this spec from the teaser. I'm hoping it will have interesting mechanics that were not in the teaser, but looks very much like Scapper 2.0 I will reserve my full judgement for the livestream as there were some really cool things in the last one.

I think you are correct.

But what if you don't take the Wells. Surely that can't be the mechanic...

This. Initiative allows you to spam the skill, sure, but the issue is the fact that it's constantly in stealth and shadow arts gives it even more defence allows it to survive. It definitely fails without SA. Anyway, your points are reasonable and I don't particularly have any argument with anything else you've stated. Yeah, it's not a slam dunk, but if there was a clear slam dunk, there wouldn't be a lengthy debate on this is guess.

I agree with you completely. The point of the video is that it is carried so hard by shadow arts and stealth. Not saying they are good players and the build and gameplay are beyond stupid. But you shouldn't be able to win a 1v3 regardless of how bad the players are without a mainhand weapon. Not saying Thief needs a nerf all round. I only have an issue with permastealth, not thief in general, which I have said a few times here. I also don't have an issue with short duration stealth for misdirection and repositioning. It's when it is able to be infinitely or near infinitely stacked it becomes an issue. It would be great to see more diversity on thief at the expense of permastealth.

Hehe 🙂 I'll look out for you ingame maybe.

Are you EU or NA? Perhaps at some point we will meet in game - it is easier to show sometimes rather than explain in words

I am talking about good Thieves abusing permastealth. And while you have and I have both killed plenty of thieves - a skilled permastealth thief shouldn't really be killed by a sic em rapid fire combo and certainly not by a power rev. Just because some players aren't as skilled doesn't make the mechanic less overpowered. Also, you have chosen 4 classes there in your argument that have reveals. Not all classes do. This is also part of the argument. It's not balanced.

1. Yes escaping is not a "win". It is also not a "draw" either. A good thief can essentially be unkillable if they play it correctly. 2. Yes and no. Capitalising on a mistake is important. But having to rely on a mistake doesn't mean you also have the opportunity to outplay them. You can outplay someone without them making a mistake. You can't outplay a permastealth thief. They have to make a mistake for you to kill them. 3. No, but it is heavily and unfairly stacked in their favour if they are a permastealth thief due to a overpowered mechanic. I am not talking about Thief in general, just the permastealth builds. Sw/D thief is fine imo. We probably all do. Anyway, I respect you for having a reasonable debate without the need to throw petty insults. I don't agree with your points but I expect that is mutual.

sPvP is balanced very differently and is irrelevant in these discussions.

No, a skilled non thief player can't kill a skilled permastealth thief, unless they make a mistake. The thief player will either win the fight or escape unless they get too greedy (which is a mistake).

You think this is why I am arguing this? Wow. What evidence do you have for this?

Haha, no, this is exactly the point. I also put a video link up as evidence and got nasty comments for it 😄 Seems like a lose lose situation if we cannot provide evidence without being insulted for it. I fundamentally disagree with you on every level of your argument. I don't see any reason to continue this. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is just your opinion, not fact.

There should be a counter to stealth by allowing all players of all classes to be able to reveal, in the same way they can stunbreak a knockdown, cleanse a condition etc. Or simply not allow large stacking of stealth the prevent it. Tactical awareness? No. It's not a counter. It helps, sure. But isn't a counter when you literally can't hit the enemy player and have no idea where they are, when they might reappear, engage etc. I am not talking about low amounts of stealth here and there for reposition and misdirection. But high uptime in stealth doesn't allow for counterplay without aoe reveals. I do know how stealth works, how it can be used, its strength and limitations. I have played many hours on thief (it used to be my main class) and have used it a lot in roaming in wvw. Given that knowledge, I believe it is overpowered - I am coming at it from this side, not from a "thief killed me QQ" point of view. Thieves can use stealth alongside their kit to essentially negate all attacks against them. You clearly don't understand what a good thief player can do with it. Imagine a class having access to permanent barrier on no cooldown. This would be overpowered but according to your argument, barrier doesn't kill anything, so wouldn't affect the outcome of the fight... even though it clearly does. It is exactly the same argument.

There is plenty of evidence and isn't just People losing to thieves and qqing. Some people posting here are good players with lots of experience and some of us are perfectly capable of killing most thieves. Even if a thief dies, it doesn't mean that permastealth is fair. Also when People do post actual evidence they get nasty comments from People in the thread. You just disagree with or ignore "evidence" and then produce your own "evidence" based on your own experience - which is just as biased as mine is. Thieves are dominant in smallscale/roaming in WvW, which you dismiss because its not something you care about. There's a whole section to it in metabattle and there are still plenty of people in wvw that enjoy smallscale/roaming. If you check the meta on roaming, thieves do dominate it. Fact. You are entitled to your own opinion (as we all are), but statements like yours above, where you dismiss everyone else's and try and position it as fact, is completely unfair.

The wvw meta includes roaming meta and "winning" in wvw means very little in its current state. I don't think we're ever going to agree on this subject. Stealth may require active action to upkeep - my issue is and always has been the lack of counterplay.

Haha, not untrue in some cases. I have already said before that I am aware permastealth isn't the only broken thing in wvw. You can at least see them coming though...