Exzen.2976

Yes, it would be ideal if there was separate balance for the 3 separate game modes... kinda makes sense and there are already splits between the 3, just not enough. I'm glad you have decided what is important and what isn't. People play the gamemode differently (kinda the beauty of wvw). Just because you don't care about small-scale or roaming doesn't mean it isn't something others would like to see and discuss. If you aren't interested, why are you even discussing it? Also would nerfing the ability to permastealth would have a huge impact on pvp and pve? I'm not entirely sure it would since I don't think permastealth is a problem in either.

But none of those can do it from permastealth 😉

This is WvW, not sPvP. Different gamemodes, different balance needs and any discussion about whether thief does damage or not in sPvP is kinda irrelevant for WvW, since it doesn't use the same amulet system with limited stats/runes/sigils. Also, permastealth isn't as much of an issue in sPvP, since players are punished for permastealth due to the mechanics of the gamemode. Also, I believe shadow arts was already nerfed in sPvP...

Errrrrrr... since when were thieves not meta?! Lmao

I don't even know where to start with this. Ele and Reaper, which I used in my example, have no illusions... neither have aoe reveal, or reveal of ANY kind, sentries/towers/items are not a good way to counterplay something and are not balanced. They should be removed as I have stated before. Reaper and ele shouldn't really be running pets. Lol. Life-force generation usually requires you to be able to actually hit the thief... so can be negated largely by stealth. They certainly can't generate enough life-force to keep up with permastealth vs a target that can't be seen. So no, not even nearly enough counterplay. This is about balancing permastealth - sure there are plenty of matchups in the favour of certain classes - but this isn't the issue here. How unbalanced permastealth is, is the issue. Your suggestions for counterplay are just suggestions to not die as quickly - none of those help you kill/reveal a thief who isn't being too greedy. A thief can still just wait in permastealth. Lots of aoe = potentially blowing all your cds, which can be baited by a thief, who can then wait go back into stealth until you are low on cds and it's more favourable to them. Honestly, this isn't counterplay. Blind is the same for all classes. I was just pointing out that a thief has plenty of options to cover them during the 3 seconds of revealed. Fighting a permastealth thief is completely different from fighting any other class/build due to the permastealth, which no other class can do. Permastealth isn't the only broken thing in wvw, it is just the subject of this thread and is probably also one of the harder problems to balance. "Great man, you played the class for 2000 hours (most likely afk somewhere at TP)"- Again, why the need for this? It's petty and unnecessary for no reason. I spoke about hours to point out that I know what thief is capable of and can speak with experience of using it and fighting it. "Also, rich coming from you given your previous post" You kinda admitted you mainly play thief, which suggests it is through lack of understanding rather than trolling. End game group gameplay probably means you rarely roam on those classes rather then Thief. It is not/was not meant as a personal insult. Name a class that can chain permablock or permainvuln etc. You can't, because it doesn't exist. Permastealth does though. I have already said several times I think the reveal from items, towers and sentries should be removed. "You claim to be expert on thief then i am sure you know if you see thief at full HP going bp+hs then in 2-3 sec bs is incoming. Is it that hard to dodge? Drop Aoe? In my experience, no class should have issues fighting thief in current state." - Hahaha, yes. Because a thief can ONLY backstab after 2-3 seconds. How about I let you in on a tip? Try going bp - hs, then not backstabbing after 2-3 seconds, waiting for players to waste their aoe, dodges etc - staying in stealth until they have wasted stuff and then hitting them. The point is, that a thief doesn't have to backstab immediately or after 2-3 seconds. Bad thieves can be killed by being predictable sure. But permastealth allows you to bypass this issue completely and just wait. Bad rangers, eles, revs, guards, warriors, engis, mesmers, necros can also be killed! "Once again, thieves sitting in stealth for extended period of time is a symptom not the issue. The issue is thieves cannot do anything else to stay alive. Give them GOOD tools for survival outside of stealth and you will see less perma stealth thieves overall. Flat out nerfing stealth, once again won't fix anything because there is no alternative." - I have already stated that I think Thief would need to be compensated if stealth were to be reworked. I agree it would be unfair to nerf stealth and not give thief more tools needed to survive. It would just be nice if those tools allowed counterplay. You seem to only read the parts you want to?

I was unaware of the bug, but you should raise it. I am not the sort of person that likes to exploit bugs to win - report it to anet if you haven't already. I shall not be abusing the space bar, since its clearly unintended. Also it's unnecessary to send comments like this. No need to insult people that take the time to create youtube content for the game. If you don't like it, don't watch it. We have few enough content creators as it is.

How is it not "little counterplay"? You are either trolling or only play thief. So say I am playing Reaper or Ele, neither of which have access to reveal. How do I counter a permastealth thief that can wait out all dangerous cooldowns (shroud in reaper/defensive cooldowns in ele) and then hit for huge damage, blind/CC/port and then go back into stealth as soon as revealed goes away and repeat until the Reaper has no life-force or the ele has no defensive cooldowns and both are sitting ducks. It's not about making you think, it's that the thief holds ALL the cards and will only lose if they make a mistake, which isn't counterplay. I have 2000+ hours on thief and I'm fully aware of what it is capable of. The way you say it, the Reaper or Ele should just walk run away or wait until the thief reveals themselves for 3 seconds (likely after a high damage skill like backstab) before using any cooldowns? You can cc a thief sure, but the thief will likely have shadowstep on the bar as well as agility signet... so good luck pinning it down before it can re-enter stealth. OK take your argument about blocks. Counterplay = unblockables (surprisingly), if we're talking aegis, then proc the block with an auto attack/low cd low damage skill etc before using a big dmg skill. If it's a skill, it will be blocking for a known set time, you then wait and then attack when it finishes. Very very very easy counterplay. Not saying that block sucks, but it is fair. And what do you mean about wvw mechanics don't allow you to ignore blocks? Lmao, thief has swipe, shadowshot and basi venom just off the top of my head, all of which are unblockable. If you're talking about marked from sentries etc, I already stated that should be reverted with a rework. I agree it was a bad design choice to have it unfairly punish Thief. It would have been better if they reworked stealth! Gaining stealth does require some resources, sure, I have no disagreement with that. But your ini will come back much much much quicker than a 60 second cooldown on a valuable defensive cooldown, as will a dodge, a heal skill, steal/swipe etc. The resources to keep stealth in place aren't that high in all honesty. Invulnerable can also be countered by waiting... all invulns have relatively short lengths, normally around 3 seconds. Counterplay is to wait and not blow your cooldowns while they are invuln. Players can't attack while invuln. Easy easy counterplay and it can't be chained permanently, unlike stealth. With regards to a rework, why not place a cap on the number of seconds you can stay in stealth for (therefore not hurting non permastealth thieves)? Perhaps a much longer debuff after leaving stealth that would prevent the thief from re-entering after 3 seconds, or perhaps preventing them for as long as they were in stealth for. I'm not saying its easy to balance, but it is unhealthy in its current state. This is why so many players bring this up. I don't get your issue with me suggesting the revealed from sentries/towers should be reverted if stealth is reworked? No, I don't want to remove the stealth mechanic completely, I just want it to be balanced and fun to fight with AND against. In its current form, it is only fun for the Thief player, which is bad design.

It's about the ability to counterplay. In its current state it allows very little counterplay outside of standing near sentries/towers, using items (lol), using reveal skills (which aren't available to all classes which is an utter joke for "balance") and spamming aoe/guessing where and when a thief MAY come out of stealth to re-engage. This can be waited out by a thief in stealth, leaving the player with everything on CD. I am not suggesting we nerf stealth access and that is then fine, because I do then agree Thief would be underwhelming and would need compensation elsewhere. If you think about it, all other mechanics in gw2 can be reasonably counterplayed. I also think that if stealth gets reworked, reveal from sentries/towers and items should be reverted. This was only ever introduced as a bandaid fix due to how oppressive permastealth was to the gamemode at the time.

I get your point, the difference is that stealth allows you to be completely in control of the fight, you can decide when to engage, when to wait longer until defensive cooldowns have been popped and negated etc. Barrier can be used while attacking, sure - and I'm not saying its not a strong tool, but a good player will kite you while you have barrier up - it disappears after 5 seconds and then it's likely on CD. Therefore it's effectiveness isn't completely within your control and requires someone to sit facetanking your damage while you absorb theirs through barrier. Stealth also has the extra advantage of being able to detarget you (meaning skills requiring a target become useless), allows you reposition or escape, pass by enemies undetected and get the drop on someone, none of which barrier can do. I fully appreciate they're different, but I personally would never choose barrier over high stealth uptime if being asked which is better! I expect I wouldn't be alone there either.

Heh, I'm not saying all of it is amazing (I actually meant Binding shadow instead if gust) - I was pointing out that it was ridiculous to suggest that you would give up half of thief's survivability for a quarter of eles utility by pointing out thief has plenty of utility too! And I'm not saying that stealth = invuln, but there is potential for much greater stealth duration than invuln. Same with barrier. In general having very high stealth uptime is just straight up better than having 3 seconds of invuln or barrier. Both of which can by negated by waiting...

So you would give up half your survivability for quarter of eles barrier?! Haha, sure you would. I'm actually laughing. And it's not cool to use things that you have said on the forums to point out when you are being hypocritical? Haha. OK. Also, you brought up mobility...

"You know, all those things that thief lacks and have like thrice impact in WvW apart from one specific time that a thief player wrecked you." Yes, yes you did. Exactly what utility does Ele have that thief doesn't? Barrier? - OK, but stealth is better. Invuln? Dagger storm and 3x evades kinda do that... also, being in stealth does a better job, since the invuln lasts 3 seconds... stealth can last longer. Healing? - Thief has stealth on heal, plus potentially an uninteruptable heal in withdraw, that will then put you in stealth on a relatively low cd. CC? - Thief has lots of good cc still, shadow gust, unblockable daze on daredevil swipe, Bandits defense, Scorpion wire to name a few. Projectile denial? - Dagger storm, smoke screen, Sniper's cover. Evades? - Thief has more. Teleports? - Thief has more. This is honestly a ridiculous statement. This isn't a thread about ele being overpowered. We can talk about condi ele in another thread if you want, but I would generally agree that burning needs tuning down and cele/trailblazer is op. Why do you think you don't see many power eles then? 0.o You said yourself you never see them! The problem comes when the mix of the two essentially mean that you can't die unless you decide to over-commit or make a mistake. I believe you made a comment recently about playing thief when you want to go to North Camp and that you never die no matter how many players you see 😉 It is also a problem when stealth shuts down certain builds so hard that there is almost no counterplay without using an item from your inventory that requires you to have enough supply to use.

You are still embarrassing yourself and no need for unnecessary "boyfriend" remarks. We are calling you out because you are incorrect and clearly have a limited understanding of elementalist. Surely there's something wrong if a whole class is forced to play Cele/trailblazer because of stealth abuse thieves? I really don't understand what points you are trying to make. A permastealth thief can bait and wait out ele utility cooldowns while staying completely safe in stealth, negating large amounts of the sustain you complained about (barrier invulns etc) and then strike when the ele is more vulnerable. Even then, trailblazer and cele eles can't actually kill a thief, since they can't possibly chase them... A thief only dies if they make a mistake! You are also assuming we are making these comments because we are QQing after being killed by a thief, which isn't correct. I have many hours on thief and personally don't enjoy playing it since I don't like playing things I consider completely overpowered. Also, I am not saying its the only broken thing in WvW, this is just a thread about permastealth, which is why people are understandably commenting on it. If this was a thread about grenades on engi, I would talk about that. If it was a thread about Guardian, I would talk about that. Etc. I notice you went completely silent on the subject of killing people with just an offhand dagger only 😉

You are literally commenting on a thread about permastealth thieves, bringing other builds into it is completely irrelevant... Also your comments about ele really show your complete lack of knowledge of the class and different builds. And why do you think you don't see any power eles?! Could it perhaps be because of the fact they are hardcountered so much by stealth abusers that it makes roaming extremely difficult? Facepalm moment. You are literally just backing up the argument for ele needing a reveal and also for SA thieves being op.

Wow, is this even a serious question?? Because, surprising as it may be to you, not every elementalist wants to play that one condi build. I like to play power- fresh air, so basically no barrier (apart from like 265 on dual skill use lol) and not much sustain. I also have very limited aoes, which are very much telegraphed by red circles (which are small anyway) and pretty much all other skills require a target - so RIP if something is abusing really high stealth uptime. So in order to make power ele viable for roaming, it would be nice to have a reveal. I also agreed above that sentries and towers was a bad thing to introduce and think it should be removed alongside a stealth balance. But let's also be realistic, a good thief that relies on stealth will just not fight near a sentry or a tower if they don't feel they can win the fight. See link above. I love how people like to assume everyone is crap if they die to it "must be bronze or below" or "stupidity". Lol. Some were probably bad, sure. But not all of them.

https://youtu.be/kG4Dv7rjvvE

I'll echo Solemn's comments as another ele main - who doesn't play with permanent protection, regeneration, stab, full condition cleanse, only 1 invuln, mara/valk/zerk but I do use projectile hate since its pretty much mandatory for roaming on ele. The lack of reveals on ele definitely hurts. I also find playing thief much easier/more effective and find stealth in general completely op. I have videos of killing people 1vX with just an offhand dagger, no mainhand or second weapon set. Says a lot about the strength of the class that you don't even need stealth attacks or even auto attacks. I don't think anyone (well most people) wants thief to be unplayable, but it would be good if they were fun to fight and balanced. I.e. not having to fight near a tower or sentry/not having to use an item to reveal/using reveal skills (if they are even available to the class, rip ele). I am also aware that other classes have access to stealth - engi can be a problem with grenades etc, but really the main culprit is thief due to the easy access. I also think the reveal from sentries and towers etc is really bad design and should never have been introduced. I'm not sure blight is the answer, but a full stealth rework would be much healthier for the game - as long as this also involved reworking and balancing classes like thief that rely heavily on stealth.

I find Dagger more fun (more dmg = more better), but it's not as good and I wouldn't recommend it - at least while you are learning. It has way worse matchups in general since you have no projectile denial. Focus gives you the important defensive skills you need to survive, so I would definitely suggest running that.

Yeah, very this. ^ I think FA Weaver has a steeper learning curve but a higher skill ceilings than fire sword Weaver. Really depends on how much time you want to spend learning it. As long as the OP is aware that there are plenty of other classes/builds that will be more effective with a much lower skill requirement. It's a LOT of fun to play though.

I agree with a lot of what is being said on here, although I disagree with the comments about Fresh Air being bad at fighting outnumbered. Once you get the hang of it, I'd argue it's much better at solo roaming/outnumbered due to its superior mobility and burst than fire Weaver. Both builds can handle multiple players at once depending on skill levels and classes of the players involved.

I use a mixture if berserker, marauder and Valkyrie stats: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGABs2t3lFwiYesDGKWUXtvMA-zVZYBhQKaIkFxonCztQaKE6tC6OBM5EEwe4to/ZE-w The big spikes come from comboing several skills together. Scepter has some good damage skills, such as Fire 2 and 3, water 2 and the fire/air, earth air and fire/earth dual skills. The general idea is to CC (the build has lots of CC) and then combo as many of these together as you can, along with double attuning to air and using air 2. This adds several damage multipliers. There is a basic description on metabattle for how to use it. Other than that it's just practice! It will likely take you a while to get the hang of it. This build struggles against thieves, power revs, condi mes/mirage, holo and boonbeast among others, but it has so many skills available that you can outplay them. Sword condi/cele weaver is a much easier build to run. It's very effective though and is a good choice for roaming. I think scepter fresh air is better personally because of the extra mobility, although I'm sure many will argue with me on that - I'm totally biased.

From a purely wvw perspective, I have enjoyed playing Virtuoso and it's visually stunning. I find that Dagger is pretty useless in wvw, there is no defensive utility on it and have projectiles on the skills makes it very difficult to use. The heal is extremely clunky requiring line of sight. The elite is next to useless; too narrow, slow and not worth the slot. Im not sure I agree with those suggesting the bladesongs need unblockable, since they need some counterplay, but I find them a little slow with cast times, even with quickness. Especially if you're relying on them for Aegis. Also, the new sword leap is a good workaround, although the loss of immob is a shame. The extra mobility is welcomed though. Overall though, it's pretty good, it just feels like it needs a bit of tweaking to make it feel less clunky.

From a WvW perspective: I genuinely love the way Harvinger plays and its great to have a mobile necro spec. Ive been trying power harbinger (which I really like) and find it does reasonable damage, the sustain is pretty good and you can escape many situations another necro spec would have zero chance of escaping. I would just echo the other people stating that the elixirs feel a bit unimpactful - it feels like they are lacking interesting effects.

I get your points, I guess it's just a personal preference, I dislike sword Weaver for the same reason. Can't please everyone. I would probably just be in the minority of ppl not remotely interested in a rifle/bow spec, which is a shame since I love playing ele. It may still work well with other weapons, but if not there are other classes/specs to play. I'm mainly playing devil's advocate, since people have stated torch would be weird and boring but I think it could be quite cool.

The one-sidedness came from the throwing the torch comment you made, which clearly was one sided and I explained by giving you examples. I have stated in my post that my issues with rifle are a preference thing. It's not for me and I would personally prefer torch over rifle or bow. That's all, just a preference. I didn't mean it to the rest. I have re read my post and it comes across as more abrasive than intended.