Jugglemonkey.8741

I actually don't have a problem with the patch so far. Sure, some of my builds don't work so well, but having to take damage lines for damage while cutting down on the instagib one shot builds is a good move imo. Basically no point taking acrobatics again, but hey, not the first time we've been there.

Most wvw players are so overstocked on clovers they have no value. Ive made 6 legendarys and working on armour now and I have well over a stack. I did say if. Then your mount skin will cost 125g as I say they worth 5g ea and yes I have a stack as well but I never know if I will make new legendary's and need them. Like the 2 Armour sets I don't have heavy and medium would take 180 but yeah might never make.I don't have many clovers, but I have legendary armor and 4/6 of the thief weapons as legendary already. Not much need to make more atm.

Currently it's the hardest-hitting skill on thief and the best way to play it; its coefficient was doubled game-wide to be about 80% of an old backstab, and it deals more damage than everything else on the class by a pretty significant margin, and for no initiative. This is kinda hilarious. Maybe this is ANet's way of saying that ele's aren't meant to be roamers xD

Noodle Whip?Or Pistol Spaghetti?

It doesnt. Ignoring the magical christmasland that is enemies lining up perfectly for a single headshot to hit all 5 while they are all also using an interruptable skill at the same time and there is no projectile destruction or block about (which basically rules out 1v1s, small scale skirmishes, teamfights and zerg vs zerg situations), there already was a way to proc both of those on multiple targets. Chokebow. Guess what? Its not a very good build, and its already much better than your hypothetical headshot build could ever be. So no, it wouldnt be too high at all. It doesnt deserve a nerf, it deserves a buff. I mean for kitten sake, even roaming D/P Thieves have just dropped PI (and Sigil of Draining) entirely because its not worth it. Chokebow used to be alright in WvW, but I haven't played it since the trap reworks admittedly (trapper rune stealth plus bow immob was what made it work, with P/D offset). It definitely wasn't top tier, but it was a fun lockdown build for a time. That said, it seems a bit OTT to nerf PI so heavily in the same patch that choking gas finally has been brought in line, unless they are planning on removing that type of gameplay altogether. I'd assume that what people have said earlier in the thread about PI being a placeholder until it's reworked has some truth in it, based on that.

Out of interest, what did people think of staff thief? Or S/P daredevil? I'm wondering if the stealth less builds get the same level of frustration out of people or not.

HAVE YOU TRIED THE RACIAL ARMORS? THEY LOOK PRETTY GOOD FOR THIEF :P

I'd have thought people would understand the difference between no cooldowns and shared cooldowns by now.

We're not really talking about after patch and the changes on the upcoming patch justifies what I'm talking about -- and I'm not the only one who share this opinion. Yes, I play Warrior and there's really nothing you can do even if you can see the telegraphed burst skill if you're knock on your kitten. Using Evis and KS as your example tells me you're the one who lacks knowledge and experience in playing a Warrior. Have you ever been in the receiving end of 100% crit Arc Divider? No? Ok, then. If warriors could do acceptable damage with no crit chance modifiers and fury access, there's no reason for warriors not to play solders with vision sigils and daredevil runes and be even more stupidly hard to kill on top of having that damage. Be careful what you wish for. Compare to what he have to deal with, that can easily be fixed by banning the DD Runes or limiter DD runes for actual DD profession. Without the high crit chance, Warrior will have to actually think about they will do instead of just facerolling on the keyboard randomly pressing keys.Yeah. I guess my point is that you have to be careful how you change warrior for the same reason as how you have to be careful in changing thief, their advantages are such that a small passive buff can easily knock them both into being kinda ridiculous if you min max the builds.

Àny build can be tanky by slotting in tanky gear, the build isn't tanky at all inherently, i use tanky gear.] Why? Are they even top tier compared to mirages, soulbeasts, core warriors etc? Most poeple play onetrick pony builds that only kills poeple with bad glass builds. If it was so absurd you'd see more of them, yet 95% of DE i see are power. It's not like it's a common build, but it's not like DE are that common either. Not to mention 95% of people playing DE have no clue what they're doing and go for the one shot burst because they watched a video on YouTube, appealing to the masses isn't really a sound argument here. Having P/D malicious sneak attacks capable of getting 5k+ ticks in less than a second that last for 12s+ that also heal you for 2k per go and can be spammed pretty consistently off the reveal timer while also having 3k armor, close to permastealth if needed and a 1500 range condi poke with mark/spotters shot is kinda ridiculous if you know how to play it. It's my preferred 1vX build for a reason, and frankly I'm fine with it getting nerfed as it's not really fun to play against, it's just absurdly effective, hence the comparison to condi mirage. If the build isn't good enough to be meta, and DE is so uncommon, then why is 90% of kitten on here about DE? Condi mirage is infinitely better, this build folds to poeple that have any amount of small cleanses, try to kill a weaver with it. I don't get this games community where everything on the opinion of competitive balance is upside down, why don't we balance straight going off performance and advantages given equal skill?I never said that it's not good enough to be meta, it's good enough to beat most things if played well, and since build templates are a thing you don't need to cover everything with one build anymore so it hardly matters if it's countered by something like weaver (although bad weavers and firebrand have still lost to it lol). One of the main reasons I play it is because condi DE often counters your average condi mirage when built properly because the reapplication outpaces their cleanse while their damage has a longer downtime between spikes, it's one of the reasons I still prefer trailblazer gear over dire (although hybrid has its uses). Frankly the main reason you don't see more is because a lot of players simply hate condi on principle, and 90% of the crying about DE of any stripe in here is done for the same reason I don't mind seeing condi DE nerfed; people just plain don't find it engaging to fight. It's got nothing to do with its effectiveness, really, just preference. At least as far as WvW goes; PvP is a different beast, obviously.

We're not really talking about after patch and the changes on the upcoming patch justifies what I'm talking about -- and I'm not the only one who share this opinion. Yes, I play Warrior and there's really nothing you can do even if you can see the telegraphed burst skill if you're knock on your kitten. Using Evis and KS as your example tells me you're the one who lacks knowledge and experience in playing a Warrior. Have you ever been in the receiving end of 100% crit Arc Divider? No? Ok, then. If warriors could do acceptable damage with no crit chance modifiers and fury access, there's no reason for warriors not to play solders with vision sigils and daredevil runes and be even more stupidly hard to kill on top of having that damage. Be careful what you wish for.

Àny build can be tanky by slotting in tanky gear, the build isn't tanky at all inherently, i use tanky gear.] Why? Are they even top tier compared to mirages, soulbeasts, core warriors etc? Most poeple play onetrick pony builds that only kills poeple with bad glass builds. If it was so absurd you'd see more of them, yet 95% of DE i see are power. It's not like it's a common build, but it's not like DE are that common either. Not to mention 95% of people playing DE have no clue what they're doing and go for the one shot burst because they watched a video on YouTube, appealing to the masses isn't really a sound argument here. Having P/D malicious sneak attacks capable of getting 5k+ ticks in less than a second that last for 12s+ that also heal you for 2k per go and can be spammed pretty consistently off the reveal timer while also having 3k armor, close to permastealth if needed and a 1500 range condi poke with mark/spotters shot is kinda ridiculous if you know how to play it. It's my preferred 1vX build for a reason, and frankly I'm fine with it getting nerfed as it's not really fun to play against, it's just absurdly effective, hence the comparison to condi mirage.

It's a good trait for the immob, but yeah, it's problematic in a lot of ways. It's getting nerfed pretty heavily in the upcoming uber patch tho, so I doubt it will be a problem after that.

It's also pretty hilarious how a class that's NOT EVEN META for WvW group play is apparently ruining WvW. Just pointing that out.

+1Exactly this.I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1 Exploits and bugs like what? State your case. I would like to mention them but Anet will immediately remove my post. I would like to also mention; if only Anet kept the original Anet visions of Guild Wars 1; none of this would've been happening. In fact; we would be in a place of throwing ideas of what would make Guild Wars 2 greater Sounds more like an unjustified argument tbh. A lot of people are quick to say that thief stealth is broken because of exploits and bugs, but nobody seems to want to actually name them when challenged, and most people that say this also don't seem to actually play thief themselves so it makes me wonder if they even could point it out. If it's a genuine exploit or bug, submit a report and get it fixed. If it's just you not liking or understanding how something works, you probably need to just accept it and move on.

+1Exactly this.I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1 Exploits and bugs like what? State your case.

A good thief wouldn't be caught in a condi blob but ur right condi aoe spamming on the node is a braindead playstyle that the devs should have avoided adding to the game, especially the degree at which it is now. Nodes resemble wvw zerg fights these days, just constant condi aoe all over the nodes makes for fun matches. Condis being single target and necros spreading them with epidemic was at least a more interesting meta than AoE spam, despite its problems. Agreed cuz at least its something u can bait out or watch for before going into the fray. Now it's just continual spam of aoe circles and burns that have crazy burst like dots lol. U could fill ur whole utility with clears and still need more. It's gotten crazy.Players kno it to as I'm only mid gold but every match is burn guard/fb, scourge/necro, condi mirage and of course ballerina fire weavers lol. I kno its effective but isnt it boring just spamming condi's over and over?The main reason epidemic was a bit silly is pretty much because of a lack of caps on conditions. I never quite understood burning having stacks tbh, surely you're either on fire or you're not? Fix that and you actually fix a lot of the overperforming condi builds around at the moment.

A good thief wouldn't be caught in a condi blob but ur right condi aoe spamming on the node is a braindead playstyle that the devs should have avoided adding to the game, especially the degree at which it is now. Nodes resemble wvw zerg fights these days, just constant condi aoe all over the nodes makes for fun matches. Condis being single target and necros spreading them with epidemic was at least a more interesting meta than AoE spam, despite its problems.

Pretty well hit thief with everything. The first run through went a long ways towards weakening thief. I do not think these adds were warranted until into the launch as it merely listening to the loudest complaints. A few changes make sense but I’m starting to get the feeling they want to remove the venoms entirely. Two stacks of venom is barely anything and I’d rather take Flickering Shadows at this point. There isn’t enough trade off between defense (33% reduction while revealed) and two stacks of venom (which can whiff and do no damage) to make both a viable option. Likewise with Smoke Screen. I’m not sure why they are not just cutting the radius/duration rather than increasing the cooldown almost 100%. Builds that can reset cooldowns will get a lot of use out of this and otherwise it may simply be too long to justify the utility slot. I may end up swapping out for an alternative utility at this point. Which is not to say that I mind “my build” being nerfed with Smoke Screen. I’m just as excited for the new meta and the opportunity to reformat to a new build. I’m just sad because I feel like this was a good skill that may be relegated to the “non-viable” bin.I kinda get why they're nerfing this tbh. Poking with rifle to build malice, swapping to P/D, stealthing for a few vnom stacks and sneak attacking into shadowstrike & repeater is pretty much a tactical nuke in WvW, whether you go hybrid or full condi. We'll have to see where the new baseline for cleanse and damage is, as honestly it's anyone's guess atm.

I've been running condi deadeye as one of my roaming builds for a while since it hard counters some classes, and honestly it's an absurd build in the same way condi mirage is absurd. The game is better off without both, frankly.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere? And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either. The CDR won't be worth it. I doubt you'd be healing often after the patch. Trickster will still be worth it if one using 3 tricks. 2 is probably not enough to make it worthwhile. This suggests a core build for the most part as you are not taking the DRD and DE utilities if you want three tricks. If I have Daggerstrom, withdraw and RFI in use I will stick with Trickster. Indeed of all the classes of utilities , Tricks are the only one I can see using in every slot. Daggerstorm is getting nerfed so you are practically taking Trickster for one utility skill, RFI. If you want to reduce recharge of your utilities and not be limited to Trickery based skills, you're better off investing in Improvisation and effectively make all your utility skills have 20s CD. The CDR from Trickster has always been just a bonus, not the main reason to take it, at least for me. I take it for cleanse, but with the new SA, it's no longer necessary. I would disagree. If in an s/d build I would still want trickster. I am not stealthing a lot in that build. I am not too worried about stability as I am not built to interrupt. Trait withdraw/RFI/Sw and you have all the cleanses you need. You can free up your utility slots by taking Improv + SA -- just saying. But I do not like SA in an s/x build. Besides I can take Improv anyways. Improv and Trickster are not mutually exclusive. What I am giving up is boon theft. Improv resetting tricks of which I might have three traited? I will take any day of the week. Now if i In p/d d/p or rifle, yeah I am taking BT and the SA line. It going to be harder to rely on Boon theft given they dropped one out of BT and now Rending shade gets a hit. What's happening to rending shade? Last I checked the pre patch notes there wasn't a change to it, might have missed it tho.Edit: nvm, I found it. If there's also a decrease in boon spam across the classes its fine, but it might just destroy the point of boon theft if they don't. It's another "see how it pans out" case I guess. I'll survive that Rending Shade change as long as it still takes the whole stack and not just a generic representation like other boon steals and keeps that Fear, I might not take it without Bountiful or something else to supplement it though. One of the strengths of RS is that both effects are from a Stealth Attack which gives it options. Yeah, it's definitely still going to be a good trait in combination with other boon rips for sure. The main reason I take it now is that against opponents like boonbeast, firebrand, protection holo, never die ele etc, I end up dealing more damage with greater consistency from stripping the protection with rending shade on every deaths judgement than I would from taking a damage traitline over SA or trickery. My main concern is that while two boons ripped works ok now, if the amount of boon spam doesn't decrease proportionally with the boonrip, you might not be able to keep enough pressure on these builds in order to kill them. Like I say tho, we'll have to see how it pans out post patch, as honestly there's that many variables changing its pretty hard to make any sort of prediction now.

Hard CC, stability, boon corrupt and party cleanse might have something to say about counters to counters.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere? And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either. The CDR won't be worth it. I doubt you'd be healing often after the patch. Trickster will still be worth it if one using 3 tricks. 2 is probably not enough to make it worthwhile. This suggests a core build for the most part as you are not taking the DRD and DE utilities if you want three tricks. If I have Daggerstrom, withdraw and RFI in use I will stick with Trickster. Indeed of all the classes of utilities , Tricks are the only one I can see using in every slot. Daggerstorm is getting nerfed so you are practically taking Trickster for one utility skill, RFI. If you want to reduce recharge of your utilities and not be limited to Trickery based skills, you're better off investing in Improvisation and effectively make all your utility skills have 20s CD. The CDR from Trickster has always been just a bonus, not the main reason to take it, at least for me. I take it for cleanse, but with the new SA, it's no longer necessary. I would disagree. If in an s/d build I would still want trickster. I am not stealthing a lot in that build. I am not too worried about stability as I am not built to interrupt. Trait withdraw/RFI/Sw and you have all the cleanses you need. You can free up your utility slots by taking Improv + SA -- just saying. But I do not like SA in an s/x build. Besides I can take Improv anyways. Improv and Trickster are not mutually exclusive. What I am giving up is boon theft. Improv resetting tricks of which I might have three traited? I will take any day of the week. Now if i In p/d d/p or rifle, yeah I am taking BT and the SA line. It going to be harder to rely on Boon theft given they dropped one out of BT and now Rending shade gets a hit.What's happening to rending shade? Last I checked the pre patch notes there wasn't a change to it, might have missed it tho.Edit: nvm, I found it. If there's also a decrease in boon spam across the classes its fine, but it might just destroy the point of boon theft if they don't. It's another "see how it pans out" case I guess.

Is there an easy to read priority list somewhere? And thanks all for the discussion! I've learned quite a bit so far. Stability ripping is a really good point and something I would have to play around. I'm not very good with stealth (usually play evasion heavy), so hasn't considered just going Shadow Arts instead for... basically all of this. It looks really attractive at this point though. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bountiful_Theft without BT u cant steal on someone with aegis either fyi That's a good point as well. Honestly I've run bountiful theft for that long I forget what it's like not having it sometimes, so while I plan to try trickster for the CD reduction post patch I may not stick with it either. The CDR won't be worth it. I doubt you'd be healing often after the patch.Yeah. Tbh I'll probably end up keeping bountiful theft and swap to hide in shadows for the heal, since I'm already using that on a few builds for the cleanse and I'm usually running the cdr trait for that too.

I think we have to see this play out for a while first. . A number of sources of interrupts on thief have been hit such as PI ,Impact strike and Bandits defense. If those less used application of interrupts/stuns drop and having a stability rip not as important. Obviously SOH remains and you would want that stability rip there but will that be enough on its own if other sources less used? It depends really. If you're going with S/D and rending shade, you probably don't need bountiful theft as larcenous strike is unblockable (aegis) and neither skill is dependent on interrupts, so stability on the opponent doesn't really matter so much. If you're going S/P with absorption sigil, you might need bountiful theft much more just to create an opening on stab heavy opponents. If access to stab is lower across the board, you might be better off simply waiting out the stability and spiking after, that's what you have to do already with pulsing stab like balanced stance on warrior for instance. A lot is going to depend on how the other classes react to the nerfs, and how the meta shakes out. Thinking primarily from a WvW roaming perspective here.