saerni.2584

“No skill” and “toxic” aren’t categories Anet uses for balance. I really wish these discussions wouldn’t always end up with people throwing around terms like “cheese” as though the term was a self evident truth that justified whatever nerf they wanted. Those terms are opinions that, basically, something should be nerfed, without any valid/accepted “because” statement. The only “because” I see in these posts is “because it isn’t fun to fight” or “because it doesn’t take enough skill to play.” However, Anet rarely/never balances around “I don’t have fun fighting an opponent.” And, Anet really doesn’t want to exclude people from PvP by requiring a narrow kind of “skill” in order to be able to play PvP. What Anet does balance around is total effectiveness, counterplayability and build diversity. Sticking to those areas will make your arguments not only better, generally, but will make them more appealing and convincing to Anet.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 The cooldown on Deadly Ambition is already 5 seconds in WvW/PvP. Edit: I’d also state I’m not saying “no don't nerf my Body Shot” as much as “Meh I don’t use it because that would be a damage loss even if I took Panic Strike.” Is Lotus a 100% chance on the finisher? It’s been a while since I’ve played Daredevil...that might be a potential way to tone it down slightly without gutting it.

Queue unranked with a full team and ask them to select the map you want. It won’t be a guarantee but you will raise your odds a lot if at least half the votes are for a map when it’s selectable.

We can’t have a realistic discussion of a build if we can’t discuss it. I appreciate you wanting to avoid discussing it publicly but Anet won’t just remove a build because a couple of top players can dominate with it. We’d have to show how unfair it is to fight against. About this non-condi staff? build: Does it abuse a jumping bug? Does its team support come from Preparations (new skills) or from older skills. Does it really have enough evade uptime against ranged damage?

@Trevor Boyer.6524 If you just use Body Shot/Panic Strike poison ticks you will be cleansed, evaded and do almost no damage. You are way better off with more diverse damaging condi which can tick much harder than 3.5k. Is this overall an issue with Lotus then? We keep coming back to this trait, and how it interacts with a damage + evade gameplay style that isn’t popular on the forums. I initially wouldn’t think so because I’d like a smart team to use combo fields rather than just spamming high damage AoEs.it seems like an actual example of skilled play. But, I can see your point about unintended synergy by giving a finisher that is especially powerful for both offense and defense in a team setting. Compared to the other dodges on Daredevil it just has the best team fight utility. So it’s not just evade + damage it’s also + utility (heal, cleanse, etc). What can we brainstorm to make it effective while not being too synergistic? Remove cripple on the Lotus? Reduce its range? I’m trying to get a sense of what you/others actually want and not endorsing either option specifically. I’d love to hear any other option that anyone can come up with.

Body Shot is super expensive initiative wise. The shot is also super easy to strafe away from at over 600 range. Sure, you can get to 3.5k poison ticks but with no cover condi. I don’t run Panic Strike and my peak condi damage is roughly 5.8k/sec against a static target that eats all my burst. But that will never happen in practice because cleanse, block, obstructed, etc.

They removed the duplicate thread so here is my response: Previously u had trait that granted chance for poison on dagger attack. Now u have constant poison application with any set, which is big buff for s/dAnother thing is the fact that power builds need power, prec and ferocity to do dmg, while condi needs only 2 stats - condi dmg, and expertise, which gives u more place for stats like vitality or toughness, boosting up survivability. On top of that, power builds need to be on target to actually do dmg, so u can trade the dmg, while s/d condi drd use sword 2, dodge and port out, which leaves very little counter play to itActually this constant poison application was big buff You could get constant poison application pre patch and with high stacks... Infack Before the patch I could get the stacks upto 47...granted it was on a pvp golem, but the point is the change really isn't as big as you think, it's just more accessible to get higher stacks for a casual thief...thats the biggest change. No, it's about consistency of applying condis, while staying safe. As I said ur main dmg is sword 2 + dodge which leaves very little counterplay Add to it DRD trait rework, now every evade applying WEAKNESS that make your attacks glance even if you try to burst them, most likely you wont get anything out of it and also deny your endurance regeneration, without vigor its almost stops. Basically sword 2 + dodge applying FIVE conditions + poison from trait (6 lul) (most skills that remove 3 conditions at best so they cant get to damaging ones that applied first). Degenerate gameplay It’s not “degenerate” because the devs clearly intended all weapons to be able to take advantage of the poison application in Deadly Arts. The main advantage of which is uptime of poison and not damage. In order to get high damage you need to (1) land your steal/mark, (2) use an attack that applies additional condi, (3) if Daredevil use a dodge at close range while no projectile denial is active, (4) whirl/projectile finisher in a poison field, (5) use utility skills that stack poison in an AoE or apply additional conditions to specific targets (Needle Preparation, Venoms, Binding Shadow, etc). Now that’s assuming the opponent just sits there and eats the damage. Most of that can be blocked, evaded or avoided by not standing in melee range in multiple AoE fields. Is the S/D version supereasy to deal with? Not if played well but that’s more to do with the teleport and S/D evades not the type of damage. Before staff S/D is probably the most evasive based thief gameplay. You can hate it if you want but both are intended to be hard to hit.

Not sure about these condi DD but a lot of players can’t seem to fight them... Most of them die though if you know how they work though...

For P/P Deadeye take the trait Be Quick of Be Killed. In PvE you don’t need many of the options you use for PvP so you can invest in lots of damage through DA and CS. I’d suggest making sure you are comfortable with single target and rapidly switching targets. You have high DPS in P/P, but it is single target so you will be constantly switching. For an offhand you may be selecting Shortbow for mobility, but also Rifle has a decent mobility with teleport so don’t feel too constrained by that. Shortbow has great CC for breakbars so don’t discount that as an option.

Look into various Deadeye builds with Rifle, Pistol/Pistol or Pistol/Dagger. You can go with either Marauders/Berserker or a Carrion/Grieving mix depending on if you are focusing on power damage or doing a hybrid build. I can give more advice later.

Acro, SA, Daredevil. Staff/Staff. Pick a good rune for sustain and probably Menders. Take Smoke Screen, Lotus dodge, and all traits to max out evades, cleanses and AoE blind. You can basically constantly evade, AoE blind and heal or cleanse to achieve “I can’t kill anything but look how impossible I am to kill.” Can also run the new preparation to trap opponents trying to leave their spawn. Just drop it in the path of where most of them will leave spawn and activate while they stand in it. Basically just work to distract and keep the enemies divided up and easy for your team to focus one at a time.

Only way to get good at Thief is by playing thief. See if you like it and ask for help. There are plenty of thieves (myself included) who can help.

More poison and more stuns.

Not bad, but I’d swap out Trickery for SA and use Carrion/Grieving to get a little more crit to help with using the stealth on stolen skill mechanic. Thief Runes. Also, Mercy can be swapped for Smoke Screen for some good blind/projectile denial and extra stealth.

Copy old Lion’s Arch (with some modifications) and make it a floating island in the HotM with full PvP enabled.

WoodenPotatoes showed off a Shortbow condi thief on stream where the second it clips you with Choking Gas you get trucked by 16 stacks of poison. Sounds like a bug.

I’m entertaining it mainly because you might be able to do a hybrid build and I’m not willing to say it can’t work. Might as well point out the ways condi thief can be fought and why it isn’t usually impossible for experienced players to win against. Might educate a few people in the process.

Isn't this exactly the problem with that build though? It's pretty difficult to kill a skilled condi DD on point with that build, while they have plenty of tools to bring you down unless you invest heavily in aoe/anti-projectile/constant cleanse (which, by design, would reduce your ability to hit them as hard as you could otherwise). Of course, they still retain the ability to back off whenever they want to with all the thief-y stuff they have. Essentially it keeps much of the mobility that thieves always had, but can now actually stand against 2 enemies on point. Not a fan. But as always, nothing teaches you how to take down a nasty build than trying to run it yourself. There's just no better way to learn where the vulnerabilities are. I'm the worst pvp thief I know, so I won't be burdening my teams with that, but I look forward to hearing about more countermeasures. I can’t speak to jump exploits to avoid the vulnerability frames. What I can suggest is kiting off point. A number of builds can cover a point in Deadly AoE damage. But, once those abilities expire they do far less damage. You might lose the point for a few seconds but dying will hurt your team more. From a condi perspective: 1) Load them up in a burst then stow weapons. This gives no attacks to evade and they will be unable to cleanse unless they have a separate source of cleanse. 2) If they have secondary cleanse they will probably be vulnerable if you can save even one extra condi attack until after that cleanse. Again, stow weapons. They will flail hoping you keep attacking and bleed out on the floor. General advice: 1) Kite away and let them use resources chasing you. Most of their damage abilities are field combos and short range projectiles. Keep moving. 2) Cleanse is not an “extra” it is a requirement. Projectile denial is also baked into certain builds. A FB on your team has plenty of it and AoE cleanse. Group play may be required to fight one of these. 3) Hard CC can hit this during vulnerability frames. Save your burst and force the thief to retreat. Or chain CC because thief lacks stability and stunbreaks. That will kill plenty of them. Will this beat a top thief? Maybe not but then you can’t balance around a gold player fighting a top player and complaining their build is too OP.

I’d point out that the build being complained about has very few gap closers and minimal AoE pressure range. Kiting will get you a long way. Especially if the opponent has to use their dodges defensively. Don’t stand on node. Kite them and fight from range. Also, use projectile denial skills to block a lot of extra combo effects from the dodges at close range. And bring cleanse. You probably need that to fight a condi build.

This could be fun but unless there are events tied to arena pvp I doubt there will be population for this outside LA.

I’ll block people who are offensive or spamming me personally. Racist, homophobic or exceptionally inappropriate language will get you reported. I have no time for the excuse that it’s just the internet. I want people to continue playing this game with me and tolerating behavior like this would not lead to player retention.

I just saw this. What kind of weapons do you like using?

Depending on your build you can get away without needing enhanced movement speed. Personally, I don’t need the need because most thief builds can move quickly anyway. For example, if your build has a lot of swiftness, or has SA’s 50% bonus in stealth, or has a lot of teleports (like taking a combo of Shortbow, Shadowstep and Steal together in a Core build you will be highly mobile even without taking a so-called mobility rune. On the damage side, I’d recommend a hybrid because cleanse heavy builds will make short work of a condi only build. The extra damage will make them more likely to mess up and not cleanse the stuff you need to continue ticking. Condi duration won’t help that much in that context.

Mobility is a mindset. And Shortbow. Otherwise use what makes sense to do damage.

Fun isn’t about easy for me to kill. Fun is about how even the matchup is, and could go either way if the opponent is good. Revenant, because a good one is an absolute threat while still providing opportunities for counter play. But I’d put out Reaper/Scourge as a close second because a good one is also potentially a tough fight but there are plenty of opportunities to take one down. I don’t dislike fighting other thieves but, and this is personal preference, sometimes the opponent is skilled enough that we can fight for a long time, sometimes it comes down to who gets the drop on the other, and often the enemy thief can’t win 95% of the time. Thief v Thief is often a particularly lopsided matchup. Honorable mention to warrior. Fun to fight, just too many “must dodge” abilities and so much chain CC to make them a tier below the others in “fun.”