Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Raknar.4735

Members
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Posts

    1,436

  • Joined

 Content Type 

Posts posted by Raknar.4735

    Imagine having an MMO 8 years old

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @Jekkt.6045 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:You seem to be taking some real hard offense to these points I'm bringing up and I'm not sure its possible to actually have a constructive discussion with you on this if that is the case. I'm fine with having disagreements, but you seem to be almost literally putting words into my mouth and also seem to be completely misunderstanding or misconstruing things I've posted. I apologize if my point of view offends you, but its a bit unnecessary to have this kind of reaction to it where it seems as if you're assuming I'm being completely vitriolic in regards to the game because I share a different point of view.

    This from someone that got so offended by me saying that GW2 outlived most of its competition in my original comment that he had to misconstrue my whole argument by putting words into my mouth. Anet really has permanent residency in your head.

    I agree we can‘t have a constructive discussion. There‘s no point arguing when you fault Anet for things you personally believe are bad (when the same things literally happen in the same other games you play, yet for some reason it‘s fine there), but don‘t really matter for the game at all. Only a small fraction of the playerbase cares about the game director not being announced. I‘m not even sure if you can call them part of the playerbase, as they‘re not even playing anymore, just being doomers because they can‘t let go. Just face that you aren‘t the target audience, it‘s not that hard. Changing the whole game around to match your personal vision is not something Anet will do. They‘re here to earn money by creating a product that appeals to many, not a singular person. The game is still doing fine and has a future, even if you don‘t want to realize that.

    Edit: It‘s actually so funny to see you try to attribute different content to „casual“ play. Your horizontal progression = makes the game more casual argument is still so wrong. What would you call someone like Asmongold? He doesn‘t really play competitively, doesn‘t really speed through content etc., yet he‘s one of the people I‘d actually call „hardcore“, as he created his whole life and career around WoW.Sorry, but I don‘t think consider min/maxxers or people speeding through content „hardcore“. Everyone can follow a guide. The people creating the guide? Those might be the actual hardcore people, the ones doing the number crunching.Most self-proclaimed „hardcore“ players aren‘t hardcore at all. They‘re easy to spot, too.

    Alright, well if you can't seem to cease from being vitriolic and have a constructive conversation because you took some apparent extreme offense at me simply, and calmly, pointing out something you said that I felt wasn't entirely accurate. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day/night and that you continue to enjoy GW2.

    Call me vitriolic all you want, as unconstructive as that may be, doesn‘t change that GW2 outlived most of its competitors in the 8 years it has been alive ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯Don‘t worry about me, I‘ll enjoy todays update as well as future updates and the expansion next year.Have a nice day.

    stating gw2 has outlived "most of its competitors" isn't really correct. i mean, sure, it outlived games like blade and soul or archeage.. but i would not call them real competitors because they weren't even meant to run for a long time. games like those have a lower budget and try to make as much money as possible on release and then are left to die while the studio/publisher rinse and repeat the same formula. out of all its "real" competitors, (WoW, FFXIV, ESO, Wildstar, Runescape? BDO) gw2 really only outlived wildstar which died because of blatant mismanagement and corrupted higher ups. So while yes, gw2 outlived some games, it only really outlived one of its direct competitors as of today.

    BnS and AA are still running, so they don't really fit into your description. I also wouldn't call those two low budget games, especially since one even got a whole Anime to promote the game. But if you got a list with the different budget sizes, feel free to share, I'd be interested to see the games compared to each other.

    Every MMORPG is a direct competitor, even if you personally don't see it like that. Games like Bless and FireFall still count.

    A racer in formula 1 is still a competitor, even if he DNF. Or would you call those ones not "real" competitors?

    Imagine having an MMO 8 years old

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:You seem to be taking some real hard offense to these points I'm bringing up and I'm not sure its possible to actually have a constructive discussion with you on this if that is the case. I'm fine with having disagreements, but you seem to be almost literally putting words into my mouth and also seem to be completely misunderstanding or misconstruing things I've posted. I apologize if my point of view offends you, but its a bit unnecessary to have this kind of reaction to it where it seems as if you're assuming I'm being completely vitriolic in regards to the game because I share a different point of view.

    This from someone that got so offended by me saying that GW2 outlived most of its competition in my original comment that he had to misconstrue my whole argument by putting words into my mouth. Anet really has permanent residency in your head.

    I agree we can‘t have a constructive discussion. There‘s no point arguing when you fault Anet for things you personally believe are bad (when the same things literally happen in the same other games you play, yet for some reason it‘s fine there), but don‘t really matter for the game at all. Only a small fraction of the playerbase cares about the game director not being announced. I‘m not even sure if you can call them part of the playerbase, as they‘re not even playing anymore, just being doomers because they can‘t let go. Just face that you aren‘t the target audience, it‘s not that hard. Changing the whole game around to match your personal vision is not something Anet will do. They‘re here to earn money by creating a product that appeals to many, not a singular person. The game is still doing fine and has a future, even if you don‘t want to realize that.

    Edit: It‘s actually so funny to see you try to attribute different content to „casual“ play. Your horizontal progression = makes the game more casual argument is still so wrong. What would you call someone like Asmongold? He doesn‘t really play competitively, doesn‘t really speed through content etc., yet he‘s one of the people I‘d actually call „hardcore“, as he created his whole life and career around WoW.Sorry, but I don‘t think consider min/maxxers or people speeding through content „hardcore“. Everyone can follow a guide. The people creating the guide? Those might be the actual hardcore people, the ones doing the number crunching.Most self-proclaimed „hardcore“ players aren‘t hardcore at all. They‘re easy to spot, too.

    Alright, well if you can't seem to cease from being vitriolic and have a constructive conversation because you took some apparent extreme offense at me simply, and calmly, pointing out something you said that I felt wasn't entirely accurate. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day/night and that you continue to enjoy GW2.

    Call me vitriolic all you want, as unconstructive as that may be, doesn‘t change that GW2 outlived most of its competitors in the 8 years it has been alive ¯\(ツ)/¯Don‘t worry about me, I‘ll enjoy todays update as well as future updates and the expansion next year.Have a nice day.

    Imagine having an MMO 8 years old

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:You seem to be taking some real hard offense to these points I'm bringing up and I'm not sure its possible to actually have a constructive discussion with you on this if that is the case. I'm fine with having disagreements, but you seem to be almost literally putting words into my mouth and also seem to be completely misunderstanding or misconstruing things I've posted. I apologize if my point of view offends you, but its a bit unnecessary to have this kind of reaction to it where it seems as if you're assuming I'm being completely vitriolic in regards to the game because I share a different point of view.

    This from someone that got so offended by me saying that GW2 outlived most of its competition in my original comment that he had to misconstrue my whole argument by putting words into my mouth. Anet really has permanent residency in your head.

    I agree we can‘t have a constructive discussion. There‘s no point arguing when you fault Anet for things you personally believe are bad (when the same things literally happen in the same other games you play, yet for some reason it‘s fine there), but don‘t really matter for the game at all. Only a small fraction of the playerbase cares about the game director not being announced. I‘m not even sure if you can call them part of the playerbase, as they‘re not even playing anymore, just being doomers because they can‘t let go. Just face that you aren‘t the target audience, it‘s not that hard. Changing the whole game around to match your personal vision is not something Anet will do. They‘re here to earn money by creating a product that appeals to many, not a singular person. The game is still doing fine and has a future, even if you don‘t want to realize that.

    Edit: It‘s actually so funny to see you try to attribute different content to „casual“ play. Your horizontal progression = makes the game more casual argument is still so wrong. What would you call someone like Asmongold? He doesn‘t really play competitively, doesn‘t really speed through content etc., yet he‘s one of the people I‘d actually call „hardcore“, as he created his whole life and career around WoW.Sorry, but I don‘t think consider min/maxxers or people speeding through content „hardcore“. Everyone can follow a guide. The people creating the guide? Those might be the actual hardcore people, the ones doing the number crunching.Most self-proclaimed „hardcore“ players aren‘t hardcore at all. They‘re easy to spot, too.

    Imagine having an MMO 8 years old

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @"Rukia.4802" said:1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @"Rukia.4802" said:1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population.
    Runescape
    , and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it
    does
    have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to
    revolutionize
    the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs
    seem
    like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine.

    Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at
    least
    decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can
    earn
    ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that.

    GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least
    communication
    from the company on it, but they don't even do that.

    Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG.

    Pretty much every playerbase is like the GW2 one in terms of skill. Being more of a fan of horizontal progressin doesn‘t change that. WoW, BDO, ESO and the rest have pretty much the same average players. Your definition of „casual“ is quite strange, if it means „averse to gearing/character progression“. I guess SL1 runners in Dark Souls are casuals, not much gearing there. Bloodborne has more of an horizontal gearing, aside from weapon upgrades, starter weapons (especially Saw Cleaver) are on par with weapons you later find in the game. I dare say horizontal gear is more skill based, as you can't overpower content with pure gearstats like in WoW or similiar gear-based games.

    I‘ve also been with this game since GW1 Prophecies. The only time I‘ve felt they didn‘t have a clear vision was shortly post HoT. It‘s natural that gamemodes with a small population will be neglected. That‘s not an Anet thing, Riot did the same to Dominion and TT (and Nexus Blitz), even killed them off completely. If you don‘t like the content and can find better gameplay in other games, maybe it isn‘t the game, but that your taste of gameplay doesn‘t match up with Anets vision because you aren‘t the target audience? Anet has the metrics where players spend most of the time, so they create content for those players. Your post makes it clear you aren‘t one of those.

    People can be blinded by their enjoyment the same way they can be blinded by their hate of content that they don‘t enjoy. It‘s so obvious why SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Raids (and soon most likely Strike Missions) are neglected. Population matters, and the population seems to enjoy the content Anet is creating more than those other modes, even if you don‘t like this direction. Your type of gamemodes/content doesn't seem to pay the bill.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG.

    My definition of casual is not "averse to gearing/character progression" that was how I defined GW2's "hardcore casual" or casual playerbase due to how they react to and view any form of gear progression or gear treadmill, this is specifically in the context of GW2. A casual player in WoW likely doesn't share those same views towards that kind of content or system. Your response seems like a misconstrued interpretation of what I
    actually
    said by generalizing it to everything.

    If I didn't agree with you on GW2 not fulfilling my criteria for a game I enjoy then I wouldn't have uninstalled. However, that doesn't negate the issues that do exist outside of personal preference being an issue. ANet still has abysmal policy when it comes to communicating with the community, they still abandon PvE content and just leave it in the game rather than rework it to become more relevant or just remove it to get rid of some of the bloat, PvP/WvW continue to lose population due to neglect, Gem Store skins continue to outweigh most earnable ingame skins in terms of visuals, there are still practically no earnable ingame mount skins, no earnable ingame chair skins, and more and more. If you're okay with the direction they have gone, thats fine, then we just have to agree to disagree, but I wholeheartedly believe that you shouldn't just ignore the issues that
    do
    exist with how they have been managing things. They have an expansion on the horizon and their careers page still lists that they are hiring a game director and still have yet to acknowledge that Mike Z left
    last year
    and we heard nothing about it or a new game director or anything. That should be
    concerning
    to this community.

    If that happened with any other MMORPG, any other game for that matter, you can be sure that if they didn't say anything about that sort of big shift in leadership then their communities would be raising hell. Imagine if, for WoW, Ion Hazzikostas stepped down from his position and nothing was said by him or Blizzard and they still had an open vacancy for that position for
    months
    ? For some reason this community just lets ANet coast and get away with things as significant as that. Thats why my posts probably seem mostly negative or "hateful" of the company, because unfortunately there are some vocal individuals here that will
    adamantly
    and without question defend ANet and not hold them accountable for the mistakes and poor decisions they make.

    Also Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter
    as well as
    an MMORPG. They have literally defined it as such back in 2019.

    Ah, so you're changing the definition of casual how you please. That means I don't have to pay attention to your definitions, since they are biased and mean nothing then.Big shocker that a GW2 player prefers horizontal progression. Horizontal progression has been here since GW1. It's a design choice that attracts players.If I want PvP out of a game, I'm not going to play a PvE game, or are those PvE people in a PvE game casual for their averse reaction if you want to introduce PvP?If I play a car racing game I'm not suddenly going to call those people "casual" because they are averse to use boats in a game designed around cars. Your definition of casual here is completely arbitrary and nonsensical.

    So you'd prefer it if Anet just simply did it the Riot way? Remove gamemodes to get rid of the bloat? No thank you. PvP/WvW will continue to be neglected because they lack players, just like Dominion and TT did. I mean, do you still see people use Garrisons in WoW? Every old raid and dungeon in WoW could be classified as "bloat". Removing them would still be a mistake. Anet aren't the first ones that abandon content, and they won't be the last.

    Yeah, they have an expansion on the horizon with a plan. Why should not having news about a game director be concerning to this community when content still steadily releases? Because you said so? You may care, but I bet most do not as long as the game keeps releasing content, which it does.

    Ah yes, the community uproars that matter. The scandals at Riot sure did a lot to hurt LoL! What? No one cares about the Hearthstone controversy anymore? Hell, I'd have to look up most game directors of the games I play. You may not like it, but I bet most don't care about stuff like that, they just want to play a good game. It's really strange how there's so many vocal individuals here that will keep on hating on the game for reasons that don't actually matter, years after they've uninstalled. It's like Anet is living in their head rent free.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG. Might as well call Battlefield and every BR out there a MMO.

    So yeah, I agree to disagree with most of your points as they seem to stem from not being part of the target audience and personal bias.

    Imagine having an MMO 8 years old

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @"Rukia.4802" said:1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @"Rukia.4802" said:1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population.
    Runescape
    , and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it
    does
    have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to
    revolutionize
    the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs
    seem
    like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    Thats why I asked what you meant by "placing my hope in". Seemed an odd phrase to use in the context. I also don't think casual players are "bad" players, I'm fine with casuals I have no issues with them existing and I don't even shove my min/max tryhard mentality onto them. Even in the context of "capability" in a game I don't think casual = not capable, they just want and like different things, its also a matter of mentality. A casual doesn't necessarily do what I do in most games that I play, again which is fine, but they are a different kind of player. I said "hardcore casuals" because GW2's casual playerbase is historically, and vehemently, averse to any kind of gearing/character progression that games like WoW, FFXIV, BDO, or otherwise have. Again, this is fine.

    Also GW2 wasn't horribly managed for all of the 8 years, but things over the last 3 and a half years I'd say have been compounding into it becoming more and more of an issue. The game 100% had more of an actual direction and vision before Colin left, but ever since then I honestly think its been all over the place. Also, I've been with the Guild Wars franchise since 2005 when GW1 first came out, and I've stuck with GW2 over the years until very recently. Its still very much in my wheelhouse, but how they execute things and how things have been handled these last few years I just couldn't anymore. Abysmal communication, PvP balance has gotten worse over time, WvW and sPvP have been for the most part neglected, sPvP Ranked and even ATs are mostly a joke and ANet hasn't taken the right steps to remedy that issue, and the shallowness of the content updates along with the system upon system and abandoned map upon abandoned map bloat in PvE, for me it all compounded into me just being done. If I want meaty PvE content, there are other games for that. If I want at
    least
    decent MMORPG PvP, there are other games for that. If I want an MMORPG with a good and engaging story, very much so other games for that. If I want a ton of visual customization that I can
    earn
    ingame for my character (also including mounts and other cosmetics), again very much so other games for that.

    GW2, for me, just doesn't do it anymore with the direction they have headed. Its unfortunate, its sad, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist or that they aren't problems just because you and others like the game. Plenty of people can be blinded by their enjoyment of something to the point of not even bothering to acknowledge the faults or the flaws that it might have. Take my "fanboying" over Lost Ark, as some might consider it at least. Yes, I'm excited for the game and to be able to play it soon, but I also am fully aware that its going to be gear grinding and thats not to everyone's liking, there are also time gated lockouts for certain pieces of content, the PvP arena, Ranked, doesn't allow for full team queueing (3v3), being able to participate in the equalized PvP will also still require you to level a character all the way to 50 first, and so on and so on. No game is without faults, no game is perfect, and GW2 is certainly flawed and thats all I have ever endeavored to point out. The game has its issues, its not unreasonable for myself or others to point them out as criticisms and ask for at least
    communication
    from the company on it, but they don't even do that.

    Also yes Destiny 2 is an MMORPG, by definition it is. They tried to dodge the term for years with the "shared world shooter" nonsense...but that is what it is. Its an MMORPG.

    Pretty much every playerbase is like the GW2 one in terms of skill. Being more of a fan of horizontal progressin doesn‘t change that. WoW, BDO, ESO and the rest have pretty much the same average players. Your definition of „casual“ is quite strange, if it means „averse to gearing/character progression“. I guess SL1 runners in Dark Souls are casuals, not much gearing there. Bloodborne has more of an horizontal gearing, aside from weapon upgrades, starter weapons (especially Saw Cleaver) are on par with weapons you later find in the game. I dare say horizontal gear is more skill based, as you can't overpower content with pure gearstats like in WoW or similiar gear-based games.

    I‘ve also been with this game since GW1 Prophecies. The only time I‘ve felt they didn‘t have a clear vision was shortly post HoT. It‘s natural that gamemodes with a small population will be neglected. That‘s not an Anet thing, Riot did the same to Dominion and TT (and Nexus Blitz), even killed them off completely. If you don‘t like the content and can find better gameplay in other games, maybe it isn‘t the game, but that your taste of gameplay doesn‘t match up with Anets vision because you aren‘t the target audience? Anet has the metrics where players spend most of the time, so they create content for those players. Your post makes it clear you aren‘t one of those.

    People can be blinded by their enjoyment the same way they can be blinded by their hate of content that they don‘t enjoy. It‘s so obvious why SPvP, WvW, Dungeons, Raids (and soon most likely Strike Missions) are neglected. Population matters, and the population seems to enjoy the content Anet is creating more than those other modes, even if you don‘t like this direction. Your type of gamemodes/content doesn't seem to pay the bill.

    Destiny 2 is a lobby shooter, not a MMORPG.

    Imagine having an MMO 8 years old

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @"Rukia.4802" said:1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @"Rukia.4802" said:1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population.
    Runescape
    , and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it
    does
    have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    The thing you're forgetting to account for, though, in regards to the "MMORPGs that died while GW2 keeps on living" is that those other MMORPGs also "keep on living". I also never said GW2 is dying, didn't imply it either if you read the rest of the post.

    Also yes, sure, Lost Ark might be aiming for a different target audience than GW2, but they still exist in the same genre...thats like saying WoW and GW2 aren't competitors with each other in the MMORPG genre, which would be wildly inaccurate. Yes its a KR grind MMORPG, yes it has gear treadmill, yes it has top down perspective, but those likely won't be deterrents for players. Or at least not big enough concerns to deter them. Its also presumably being published by Amazon, that marketing endeavor is unlikely to be minimal. So if anything, Lost Arks "target audience" is the typical MMO player...not the "hardcore casual" that GW2 seems to cater to pretty heavily.

    But why do I also say it will probably pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population? Mostly because many likely stick around because they don't have to worry about gear to PvP, which Lost Ark also has. If "actual PvP games" were the only thing that those players were looking for then they would have just simply left already, but give them another option with a system similar to GW2 sPvP and they will probably go to it. Probably not the "top" players, though, considering how they probably enjoy being able to sit in their leaderboard positions with little effort and minimal competition.

    Also I'm curious as to what you mean by "placing my hope in"? To me that sounds like you're assuming that I'm thinking Lost Ark is going to
    revolutionize
    the genre, or that it will get me back into MMORPGs, or that it will "kill" GW2. It could be that you just didn't use the right phrasing or I could be wrong but none of that is accurate. For one, no...I don't jump onto hype trains, I'm realistic with my expectations. Its the same reason why I don't believe GW2 is dead or dying, just that its horribly managed, handled and the devs
    seem
    like they have a distinct lack of actual passion for this game anymore. Second, I haven't stopped playing MMORPGs, I am playing Destiny 2 right now, I consistently play WoW, and FFXIV is on my list of revisiting sooner rather than later since I can only afford to sub to one of them at a time. Thirdly, I don't even want GW2 to die, I want them to do better, handle it better. I'm not going to fluff their ego, I'm not going to pander to them and feel sorry for them when they get criticism, or adamantly defend them when warranted criticisms are made. I don't discount that its still alive and it still has a population, but I do at the very least recognize that it has issues that I believe ANet needs to resolve, but they have done nothing to resolve them and the game feels like they don't even care, especially with their abysmal approach to communication.

    Man you assume a lot of things. I‘ve never said that you‘re saying that GW2 is dying, if you read my post.Asymetrical gaming and third person gaming is a huge difference, especially for MMORPGs. Diablo 4 and PoE2 are the biggest competitors for Lost Ark. I bet most GW2 pvp players haven‘t even heard of the game.Tells a lot that you‘re speaking of „hardcore casuals“. Hint: GW2‘s average players are just as bad as any average WoW, LoL, BDO, ESO, Rift, PoE, Diablo player. Get off your high horse.

    Lost Arks PvP is so different from GW2 you‘d better compare it to Battlerite.

    For a „horribly managed“ game GW2 survived 8 years just fine, even with an expansion in the horizon. Maybe it isn‘t as badly managed as you think and you‘re just the wrong target audience?

    I also wouldn‘t call Destiny 2 a MMORPG, but i guess the term changed over time to include lobby shooters /shrug

    Imagine having an MMO 8 years old

    in Player vs. Player

    Posted

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @"Rukia.4802" said:1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    @"Rukia.4802" said:1 recognized (?) pvp mode

    Let's count how much pvp content GW1 got.. with a much smaller budget and team.

    Yep, because GW 1 was designed as a PvP game. Guild Wars 2 wasn't. : Even in Guild Wars 1 developed as time progressed, the updates were more and more PvE. And didn't expect PvE to be as popular as it was, but it was undeniably what ended up driving the game. The evidence is that Anet made Guild Wars 2 about PvE predominantly. You can tell by the number of updates PvE gets by comparison.

    Anet said, before Guild Wars 2 launched that they intentionally didn't talk about PVP for the first year after the announcement to try to break people out of the idea this was a PvP based game. They said this at shows and on panels. The focus of this game was always been PvE from day one. That's why it talked on the official website about the game being a living breathing world. That's why they focused on dynamic events.

    Thats why their steam page DIRECTLY talks about competitive play and that its a competitive game?

    Sure they mention it. Just like a hotel that has tennis courts might mention them in an ad, but it doesn't make it a tennis hotel. There are four paragrpahs there, and one of them talks about competitive play which obviously from the wording covers both PvP and WvW. They're lumped in together in one paragraph. They don't even get their own seperate paragraph. Looks to me that one of the paragraphis there is about story, one is about dynamic events, one is about combat in general and one paragraph is shared between two completely different types of PvP.

    I don't know a lot of people who would argue at this point that this game is centered on PvP. Just look at the game updates Anet absolutely said what I said they said. That they didn't talk about PvP for the first year to make it clear this wasn't a PvP centric game. Because they had trouble getting people into GW 1 later on because everyone assumed it was a PvP centric game. They've never had the bulk of their devs working on PvP. And I don't know any PvPers who think they have.

    You can believe anything you want, but the evidence doesn't really support what you're implying here.

    Actually it does, you don't need a combat engine or system like they have for PvE. Simple. Dodging was made popular by guild wars 2, sure tera online and a few others tried it but not to the extent this game has. It only shines in Competitive play; Its nice in PvE but most time its stack and spank unless in raids and even then most of the time its stack and spank. The combat engine was built for PvP, E-sports was their plan in HoT and failed due to balance, WvW was their end-game mode with dungeons and fractals as well new maps being the only thing PvE had.

    Ontop of that WvW DIRECTLY effected PvE and vice versa before the mega-servers. The game was built with PvP in mind and a bunch of PvE players began whining because it was the end-game, which was back when everyone claimed it had no end-game. Now end-game PvE exists and its more niche than WvW and it still gets more content Cadence (not saying alot here). Im sorry but the evidence points to end-game anything outside of PvE maps not being the focus, be it fractals, PvP, WvW, Raiding or what have you. The game is made to sell you new maps and mastery's and it has been this way since mid way through S3 of the living world~ And from the looks of it I'd say they are turning course back around to where ALL modes are taken better care of.

    You, as a PvE fiend who sit here and diminish the importance of competitive modes don't understand that there is a big market for PvP in mmo's. And when we go to steam there will be a pretty big fire being burnt because a lot of those people want competition. Just because you don't care/like/want or acknowledge the mode as anything more than a waste of time (guessing based on how you dismiss it) Doesn't mean everyone else does. I personally see raids and strikes, as well fractals as a waste of time as they offer no power increase for the BS that exist within those game modes. And the shenanigans and rude people who exist within them; Id rather those resources be put the work elsewhere but surprise, surprise... new fractal in sep. And fractals aren't even a focus in the game~ And haven't been for a long time.

    This game as never focused on PvP. For years and years and y ears, people in the PvP and WvW community have complained about lack of updates compared to PvE. You can try to spin this any way you like but it's just not the case. From launch, count the updates that affected each, it really is that simple.

    You may have a different opinion but the raised voices of the WvW and PvP community tell a completely different story. So does the raid community for that matter.

    Raids have been abandoned and you'll likely be hard pressed to see another one. PvE end-game is not successful here so HONESTLY looking at what A-net themselves have said, Fractals are the most succesful of the PvE end-game. So outside of living world maps/expansion maps stop developing everything else and focus there, close down those waste of space modes and roll their rewards into those two modes. Cull the player-base of the ones you dont want or care about, and just do more of the same because honestly NONE but Open world PvE have the participation to warrant existence. Even fractals likely don't have enough to really warrant development, how long has it been since we got a new one? We get one this month. How long until the next one?

    It was PvP focused, Go back and look at HoT and look at Core and how they marketed it. WvW and PvP even had their own trailers and they were talked about once they knew what they wanted to do; The combat engine was designed for it. Your opinion is wrong and willfully ignorant and Ill call you on it, Dodge rolling and the like of what we have combat wise is not needed for PvE once so ever and honestly offer WAAAY too many balancing problems for them to have willfully made the game this way. The game changed directions because of their inability and lack of drive to balance the game; E-sports is pretty dang boring when its two teams of the same class/classes duking it out because its literally more of a western stand-off than it is a sporting event.

    E-sports require variation and diversity in builds, characters and skill-sets and this game? Never has and likely never will offer or demand that. Think what you will, but I suggest we walk away from communication with one another. Im not about to conceded to your ludicrous point and you refuse to acknowledge or understand mine, there is a communication barrier and we can't co-exist because frankly Im unable to not come at you over an opinion based on a lie. So respectfully do not reply, let it go and I shall do the same and we will part with this. Or we can continue to do this for the next two weeks and argue; Im leaving that choice entirely up to you but Im not going to be as forthcoming or tolerant going forward.

    You've said it yourself. For many many years now, the main focus of development has been story, meta events, dynamic events, and the occasional fractal. That's pretty much it. But back in the days of Season 1 of the Living World. PvE was getting content every two weeks and all I heard, even back then, were PvPers who felt abandoned by the company. You can write as many paragraphs as you like but the PvE focus has been here since Season 1, when PvE was getting the vast majority of updates.

    Edit: Traditional end game definitions NEVER applied to this game. The game didn't launch with raids. The devs themselves said they considered the three Orr zones end game. Dungeons too were obviously end game, but it wasn't what the devs were talking about, when they talked about the game, at least not by percentage of time. In HoT, zone metas were considered end game and still probably are for most people. Raids and Fractals are the instanced end game, but this game has been focused more on the open world.

    Which simply is why its doomed to not live as long as the competition. If End of dragons doesn't do well I wont be surprised if NCsoft pulls the plug, they've done so to games more successful for less.

    In the 8 years GW2 has been alive it outlived most of its competition ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    Took NCSoft long enough to pull the plug on Wildstar and Aion is still alive with less sales.Also they only recently gave Tencent the publishing rights in China.

    Those aren't "most of its competition" though. TERA is still going (unfortunately), WoW is still going much stronger, FFXIV is also going much stronger, BDO pushes GW2 out with its larger daily populations and better player retention, ESO (which is probably GW2s closest "competitor" in terms of combat mechanics and otherwise) is going stronger than GW2 with active population.
    Runescape
    , and I mean Oldschool Runescape, holds players better than GW2.

    Not to mention upcoming MMOs are probably going to siphon even more playerbase from GW2. Lost Ark is confirmed for Western release in 2021, it might not have the "lack of a gear treadmill" that GW2 has, but it
    does
    have completely equalized PvP arenas which will undoubtedly pull most of whatever remains of the PvP population away from this game.

    So you mentioned 6 still living MMORPGs out of how many MMORPGs that died out while GW2 keeps on living?Those games you mentioned aren't "most of its competition". Just the current competition that survived.I'm also wondering where you're pulling BDO and ESO population playerbase numbers from, I'm interested how they compare to other games.

    Placing your hope in Lost Ark is funny to see. Do you know which games will pull what remains of the PvP population? Actual PvP games, not Lost Ark.And that's without mentioning that Lost Ark has a different target audience than GW2.

    I hope Guild Hall decorations system will be used for Solo Player Housing in the future

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    Housing would increase my time spent ingame. Implementing a „visiting“ option to see other houses as well as a templating function to save and share player houses could even create a community based around that, just like in PoE.But would it also increase the amount of real money that you spend on the game? That's what would ultimately drive the decision, IMO. I'm sure Anet cares about how much time player spend in the game, but I believe that they would rather player spend more money. If this is not the case, then I would appreciate resources being spent elsewhere. However, I am expecting housing to be in the expansion because what else would be enough of a hook to pull people into buying it?

    Then, there will be additions to basic housing that will be in the gem store that everyone will whine about being too expensive, just like the mount skins.

    Personally? Yes, I would spend real money on it. So yes, I would appreciate if resources were spent on housing.But it doesn't actually matter what you or I think about how resources should be spent.

    It's the same with mounts: I couldn't care less about new mounts skins, as I don't buy any of them, yet others buy into them. The same will most likely be true for housing, where I'm one of the people that will spend money on it.

    Saying that everyone will whine about prices is a bit much. Not everyone whined about the mount skins, I simply didn't care about the skins in the first place ;)

    • Like 1

    I hope Guild Hall decorations system will be used for Solo Player Housing in the future

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    I hope that if they implement housing with the Guild decoration system as base, they also make the decorations scalable in size.

    Housing would increase my time spent ingame. Implementing a „visiting“ option to see other houses as well as a templating function to save and share player houses could even create a community based around that, just like in PoE.

    The resources could be spent here perfectly. I haven‘t seen any other „new“ system besides housing being suggested that appeals to me.

    • Like 1

    Constructs and Mechanics that lead to the Death of the Game.

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    If you want to talk to people, just talk to them, put in some effort.You shouldn't need the game to conveniently place you into groups, instant gratification much? ;)

    Forced grouping doesn't always lead to communication. Just look at games with forced grouping like League of Legends. There's a reason why Riot added a way to mute multiple people at once, and some players use that at the beginning of the round.

    Guilds with 500 people "fail" being Guilds because they are just groups of people that don't know each other.Discord replaced most guild chats, since you can reach people there even if they're offline and it's easier to find people that share your goals. Discord even allows you to join a social community that transcends one game, creating lasting friendships that don't disappear once one player doesn't log on anymore.You just have to put in some effort and seek those communities, instead of joining a Guild that was able to add a multitude of players due to population density.

    Not everyone "WANTS" to communicate in a silent room. People are complex beings, not everyone has the same personality.Some are fine and even enjoy the silence. The awkward one is the one that has to comment on that silence.

    Game design should be convenient and allow people to play the way they want. Anything else will just make players leave the game for a more convenient one.

    Elite Specialization Discussion - End of Dragons

    in Professions

    Posted

    Most likely in my eyes:

    • Necro - Shield: I base this solely on the fact that Jhavi used one in the past and in multiple IBS teasers. Currently she‘s using a focus in the offhand, but will most likely change to shield once we‘re further into the story. Don‘t think it will be a support specc, though, as scourge was planned to be the support specc.
    • Guardian - OH Sword: Almorra uses an OH sword in the fight during VotP. She starts the fight with a shield, but changes into dual swords mid fight. Speedy/mobility based specc.
    • Revenant - GS or MH Axe (+ OH mace), pure power Dps, selfish, Svanir as legend: They could tie in this specc into lore, since to invoke a legend the rev has to know about the legend, and Jormag talking to us is currently unavoidable. I‘m pretty sure GS was originally planned for Kalla/Renegade (The statue in Black Citadel wields a GS to this day, shortbow was added to the statue at a later date) similiar to sword being planned for tempest, but then added to weaver. I could also see the axe/mace combo similiar to the mallyx mace/axe combo simulating claw and fist, this time power based.

    Speculation based on nothing:

    • Warrior - Staff: Support specc, boonshare.
    • Ranger - MH Pistol: pure dps specc with little defenses, marks single enemy for extra damage. The more you hit a marked target, the more your damage enhances.
    • Thief - Torch: Support specc, boonshare. Stealth isn‘t full invisibility, just camouflage with enhanced stats. Uses flares to mark locations where boons will be granted.
    • Engineer - MH Mace: Support specc, stationary with upgrading turrets (think TF2 engineer)
    • Mesmer - Shortbow: control specc, more mobility and solo portal shenanigans.
    • Elementalist - Longbow: weird specc that sounds cool at first, plays clunky, but is still played due to stats/power creep.

    What about a story and easy mode for the Raids?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:I'll repeat again: if the story that plays itself is all you want then go watch it on youtube and move on to the content you enjoy playing.

    So, precisely what people did. People moving on to play the content they enjoy playing, leaving raids behind with a low population.According to Andrew Gray, the low population makes it tricky to create more content for raids.Voilà, you get the current situation with no raids in sight and Strike Missions trying to save them.Self fulfilling prophecy.

    I'll just continue enjoying my MMORPG with massive amounts of players in the open world and WvW, instead of non-massive lobby-based instances ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    ...so what's the problem here or how does it change anything I wrote above? :D

    it doesn't change anything. No problem here.

    Cool, thanks for answering then ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    Just don't expect Anet to create new content for you when the content you find fun is pretty niche, if you are against opening up that niche to more players. That would just be entitlement.

    Putting aside that "gotcha" moment you've apparently tried having here, I don't know what you're responding to, but I'm pretty sure it's nothing I wrote, soo... hm?

    No "gotcha" moment here.I was merely elaborating on what "playing the content one enjoys" could mean for the future of the game content, in relation to population size of different content types if we make the assumption that nothing about the content types changes (as in, no notable changes to a specific game mode that could increase population size, so a stagnant or even decreasing playerbase).Anet will then take the corresponding action for the game modes in terms of allocation of personnel. If someone then disagree's with Anets' decision, while actively being against any notable changes to his gamemode that could increase the playerbase, they've got no one to blame but themselves (but of course they are going to blame Anet ;)).

    Like I've stated earlier, I'm in agreement that everyone should just play the content he enjoys, I'm not trying to debate you on this, just sharing my opinion ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    Pretending that making an easy solo story mode is any way to build up actual group raiding community is hilarious, it will achieve as much as the current regular story mode bosses for current raiding. So nothing, because why would it change anything in that matter?As per usual by now -I don't know what you're answering to, but it sure isn't anything from my posts, so not sure why you keep quoting me just to derail into some wierd remarks about being entitled or blaming anet about whatever you think they would be blamed for, both of which were simply a miss.

    Huh? I‘m not sure where you got the easy solo story mode thing. Actually, I‘m sorry to say that I don‘t get your whole argument here, or what you‘re referring to.

    This is what this thread and my previous posts (that you've answered to) are about, what about this is unclear?

    I've actually never thought this was about an easy "solo" story mode, so yeah, color me surprised. I was thinking more in terms of Forging Steel, which is a 10man-story instance.

    I‘m actually really not sure why you‘re trying to turn this into some weird debate thing. I‘m just sharing my opinion on this topic, using your „everyone should play what he enjoys“ as an anchor point. If you don‘t think something is relevant, feel free to ignore it. Not everything is directed at you, but the topic at large.

    That's the part I didn't understand -you've quoted me and then proceeded to respond to me about things I never said, if it's not directed at me then don't quote me so I won't get the notification about the unrelated answer. You really don't need any anchor point to share your opinion in a thread and I don't have a problem with you having one, more about it being unrelated to what I said.

    Yeah, but the anchor point was related to the "play what you enjoy". I mean, you could also stop replying to my unrelated things by simply not quoting me. But instead you blew this up into something bigger for no reason at all.

    @"Asgaeroth.6427" said:Raid launch sucked the life out of GW2 for me.

    Same thing happened to a lot of people I know. While the open world was the place where you had massive communities of people playing together, you could only bring a select few of people to the lobby based smallscale raids.

    Someone explain to me how releasing additional content/gamemode somehow "sucked the life out" of the rest of the game.Btw, you've voted for "I would like to have a story and easy mode for raids
    so that the population has the chance to grow and we can finally have more raids.
    ", but you just keep arguing against the raiding in general.And what about other limited-group content like pvp, story instances or fractals? Didn't those suck the life out of the game for both of you (and your friends, I guess) when you had to "leave your guildmates behind"? Why are these somehow different for you?

    But I‘m not arguing against raids. I‘m arguing against the current version of raids, as I see no future in them in the long run. That‘s what the topic is about, is it not? The low playerbase and ways to increase it.

    Ok, but you see what I've quoted right? Can you explain what this is about in relation to this thread: "
    While the open world was the place where
    you had massive communities of people playing together, you could only bring a select few of people to the lobby based smallscale
    raids.
    "?

    It seems like a complaint aimed at limited number of players that can join the content (as opposed to massive OW), which is why I've asked about other limited-group instanced content and how is this an argument against 10-player raids, but not against 5-player
    whatever else
    .

    Except I've already stated that a flex mode would be great to have in story, fractals etc. too.This topic is about raids after all, not about fractals, PvP nor story, so my opinion on them is pretty unrelated, don't you think?

    So yes, I do want raids to have the same pick up who you want without those tight "10man" restictions that is available through flex in WoW.

    Not sure about you, but I helped plenty of people in story and fractals, never had to leave someone behind there. That said, I would also like a flex system for both story and fractals, if possible.

    Ok, this is good. But why is this not possible for raids as well? I've seen plenty of people initially thinking it's too hard (without even trying it in the first place), but after joining training groups they learn the mechanics and are able to go through the content. Why can you teach people in instance a, b and c, but this one is somehow unplayable?

    It's pretty hard to carry and train many people through raids by yourself. Way easier in low lvl fractals. And still, a flexsystem for fractals would be great, too.

    Look, you can move the goalpost to wherever you want far away from raids. To fractals, story etc, but that won't change the situation raids are currently in.Keeping raids as they currently are will not save them. They will end up just like dungeons if there's no change.

    What about a story and easy mode for the Raids?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @"Asgaeroth.6427" said:Raid launch sucked the life out of GW2 for me.

    Same thing happened to a lot of people I know. While the open world was the place where you had massive communities of people playing together, you could only bring a select few of people to the lobby based smallscale raids.

    Someone explain to me how releasing additional content/gamemode somehow "sucked the life out" of the rest of the game.Btw, you've voted for "I would like to have a story and easy mode for raids
    so that the population has the chance to grow and we can finally have more raids.
    ", but you just keep arguing against the raiding in general.And what about other limited-group content like pvp, story instances or fractals? Didn't those suck the life out of the game for both of you (and your friends, I guess) when you had to "leave your guildmates behind"? Why are these somehow different for you?

    But I‘m not arguing against raids. I‘m arguing against the current version of raids, as I see no future in them in the long run. That‘s what the topic is about, is it not? The low playerbase and ways to increase it.

    Not sure about you, but I helped plenty of people in story and fractals, never had to leave someone behind there. That said, I would also like a flex system for both story and fractals, if possible.

    Most of my friends don‘t play PvP. I also would like a true solo queue more, as PvP is more of a ladder thing than PvE content, unless you‘re into speedrunning.

    What about a story and easy mode for the Raids?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:I'll repeat again: if the story that plays itself is all you want then go watch it on youtube and move on to the content you enjoy playing.

    So, precisely what people did. People moving on to play the content they enjoy playing, leaving raids behind with a low population.According to Andrew Gray, the low population makes it tricky to create more content for raids.Voilà, you get the current situation with no raids in sight and Strike Missions trying to save them.Self fulfilling prophecy.

    I'll just continue enjoying my MMORPG with massive amounts of players in the open world and WvW, instead of non-massive lobby-based instances ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    ...so what's the problem here or how does it change anything I wrote above? :D

    it doesn't change anything. No problem here.

    Cool, thanks for answering then ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    Just don't expect Anet to create new content for you when the content you find fun is pretty niche, if you are against opening up that niche to more players. That would just be entitlement.

    Putting aside that "gotcha" moment you've apparently tried having here, I don't know what you're responding to, but I'm pretty sure it's nothing I wrote, soo... hm?

    No "gotcha" moment here.I was merely elaborating on what "playing the content one enjoys" could mean for the future of the game content, in relation to population size of different content types if we make the assumption that nothing about the content types changes (as in, no notable changes to a specific game mode that could increase population size, so a stagnant or even decreasing playerbase).Anet will then take the corresponding action for the game modes in terms of allocation of personnel. If someone then disagree's with Anets' decision, while actively being against any notable changes to his gamemode that could increase the playerbase, they've got no one to blame but themselves (but of course they are going to blame Anet ;)).

    Like I've stated earlier, I'm in agreement that everyone should just play the content he enjoys, I'm not trying to debate you on this, just sharing my opinion ¯\
    (ツ)
    /¯

    Pretending that making an easy solo story mode is any way to build up actual group raiding community is hilarious, it will achieve as much as the current regular story mode bosses for current raiding. So nothing, because why would it change anything in that matter?As per usual by now -I don't know what you're answering to, but it sure isn't anything from my posts, so not sure why you keep quoting me just to derail into some wierd remarks about being entitled or blaming anet about whatever you think they would be blamed for, both of which were simply a miss.

    Huh? I‘m not sure where you got the easy solo story mode thing. Actually, I‘m sorry to say that I don‘t get your whole argument here, or what you‘re referring to.

    I‘m just agreeing that people should play what they enjoy and that Anet will then develop content depending on what they think is best.I‘m not blaming Anet one bit here, they just create things based on their internal data.

    I‘m actually really not sure why you‘re trying to turn this into some weird debate thing. I‘m just sharing my opinion on this topic, using your „everyone should play what he enjoys“ as an anchor point. If you don‘t think something is relevant, feel free to ignore it. Not everything is directed at you, but the topic at large.

    What about a story and easy mode for the Raids?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:Raid launch sucked the life out of GW2 for me.I wish GW2 had something similiar to Flexible Raids in WoW, but I doubt Anet will do a lot about it, given the current population situation.It‘s just puzzling to me that Anet hasn‘t figured out the problem, when other MMO developers already have the solution. There‘s a reason LFR is a thing in WoW.

    I think I get what you are aiming for, but not sure you gave this further thought. Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't WoW flex raids start at 10 players, while GW2 raids cap out at 10 players?

    How would flex raids be comparable? Is your argument that GW2 should have flex raids for 1 to 10 players, or that the current raid size needs to increase to even allow for sensible flex adjustments?

    WoW 10 mans also used to cap out at 10 players. Flex was introduced so that you could take more people to not leave anyone behind.My argument is that flexible group sizes should be a thing.The lowest player amount of the groups are something Anet has to decide before implementing and optimize after. Only because WoW has the minimum set to 10 doesn‘t mean GW2 has to. This isn‘t WoW. So it could start at 3, or 5 or 10. There‘s also no boundary for the maximum, it could go up to or even start at 10, 13, 33 or more, depending on Anets‘ findings during tests. The boundaries aren’t set in stone.

    Sure, but it makes a huge difference which of both you mean. A common complaint in GW2 is that raids already take a huge amount of organization, and that is with 10 players. I doubt this would get better with an increased player count, though I do see the appeal to run this as bigger guild maybe.

    In case of reducing the player size, there are bosses which would become impossible. Say Deimos, how are you going to:
    • tank
    • hand kite
    • black kite
    • heal
    • dps

    while dealing with the add and getting teleported between 2 areas with less than 5 players? (this can be applied to many bosses be it Dhuum, Twins, Qadim, Qadim 2, Xera, etc. Nearly every boss has some type of mechanics which need to be covered by multiple players).

    On the flip side, say you increase the amount of players. How would bosses which have mechanics where 1 player failing can cause the entire encounter to fail feel with suddenly 30 players? The reason flex raids work in WoW is because it is a simple scaling process inherent in that games gear system, and even there, there are certain break points of player count which are easier or harder due to even only numeric scaling.

    Not saying this would be a bad idea for GW2, just saying that it would by far not be as easy to implement as in say WoW.

    Remove mechanics just like WoW already does depending on group size. LFR, Normal HC and Mythic also have different scalings and mechanical changes. WoW scales both in group size as well as difficulty. It‘s not simply numerical.

    From all I could find, all it does is change the amount of players hit from attacks. Removal of mechanics is not within a flex raid, but between difficulties. Meaning a 10 player flex raid will encounter the exact same mechanics, scaled down to 10 players in damage and healing requirements as well as players hit, as a flex raid with 25 players. The removal of mechanics only happens between different difficulties of that raid say between normal and heroic. Or am I wrong?

    While it didn‘t happen often, mechanical changes besides amount of players hit, did happen.Sha of Pride and prison amount, or the old Garrosh encounter before being patched would be examples.So yes, it is possible for Anet to do something similiar.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Of course there will be optimal group sizes, you can‘t really create a perfect scaling system when players are involved.Encounters where one player can fail the encounter and cause a wipe are nothing new in WoW, same thing for fights with special roles.

    Sure, but those usually come in at far higher difficulties, and in GW2 case I'm unsure how this would in any way benefit weaker players who are already challenged. It would make for interesting hardcore runs though.

    By scaling down the responsibility on lower player numbers it would benefit weaker players.You could also dynamically scale timers depending on group sizes, increasing the time someone has to do a certain mechanic.

    This is all true for not instant fail mechanics, which is what I was referring to. In essence you are asking for the removal of instant fail mechanics from any encounter which is scaled up.

    Instant fail mechanics, N‘Zoth was notorious for wiping groups in LFR. Those were, of course, hotfixed for a good reason. Instant fail mechanics aren‘t really good design, especially not in PuG‘s / LFR.They are fine in coordinated groups like Mythic, but can still be frustrating to deal with even with the best groups when tied to an even buggier encounter (Azshara hehe).

    @Raknar.4735 said:Heal/Tanks/DPS is just the basis in WoW, not every fight boils down to tank and spank.The gear system just helps making encounters easy by overgearing, it doesn‘t really have any bearing on flex.

    I will have to disagree here given that outgearing content directly means being able to carry weaker players. You should know that. It has no bearing on the scaling yes, which makes it even more potent when outgeared players come in.

    I‘d go so far that since we don‘t have gear scaling, maybe the starting difficulty of raids shouldn‘t be set so high in GW2.WoW raids will get easier with time, since you‘ll start to outgear encounters until you can completely ignore some of the mechanics, in some cases even wipe mechanics with average skill. So even the worst players in WoW will be able to complete the content. Not to mention that LFR and in many cases normal difficulty is barely failable.Compared to GW2, where the average player does 10x less dps than the top end and can‘t clear within the enrage timer, WoW raids seem pretty forgiving.

    True, that I agree with. GW2 raids are more akin to heroic or in some cases mythic light raids when compared to WoW. Less as time in WoW passes on. The huge benefit here that WoW players enjoy is that as the gear level increases, more payers get to see the content.

    They actually get to see the content from the get go, just with a different difficulty. Intelligent design on Blizzards‘ side, they reuse the same assets for different target groups. Nothing is wasted as even the worst players can beat LFR.

    That in turn requires either gear progression, or a significant "dumbing" down of challenging end game content. That's what strikes tried to do, and from my personal subjective impression, failed at (though I specifically add subjective, the developers will have far different numbers).

    I share this sentiment. I‘d go even as far as saying Strike Missions were doomed to fail from the start for various reasons.

    The problem with challenging content is simple (and why strikes are where they are now):those who enjoy, it enjoy it for the challenge and stick with it due to that challenge, until they quit. Those who do not enjoy the challenge either never play the content, or drop out after seeing it a few times. That's why strikes are dying out as time progresses. The only players left are the hardcore players who haven't grown bored (I believe most have) while the vast majority of more casual players (meaning in this case players who do not enjoy challenging content, not mean in a negative way) dropped out months ago, and some farmers.

    Mostly agree. Not so much about the terminology as casual/hardcore only depends on time spent dedicated to the game in my opinion.

    I also see a problem that many don‘t even see a way of entry to raids and get quickly turned off. I wonder if the average player even knows about them.I belong to the group of people that stopped raiding because the current version of the gamemode simply doesn‘t interest me. The only reason I did them was for the rewards. Once I got what I wanted, I dipped out of my static to let someone else take my place that wasn‘t able to get into raids before (he wasn‘t fond of pugging).

    The entire discourse got me thinking, maybe instead of aiming for easy mode raids with fixed 10 players some kind of flex system could work (not sure how much work would really have to go into this, even the raid size with 10 players is rather hard coded into the game). It would require a massive amount of changes though.

    Maybe a first step could be to allow spectator mode for raids first, similar to how spvp allows spectator mode for matches, with some kind of opt in for groups. That could really boost the popularity seeing how the last Elitist Tournament had a lot of viewers. Having players live there to watch and learn would also make life so much easier for trainings and maybe get players curious.

    All that obviously under the prospect of devoting more developer resources in the first place. I guess we will have to wit and see.

    Flex is just the first part that lets everyone participate that already wants to raid. We‘ll definitely need it in the future for raids to prosper, as it allows for an easier time in group. Login and play, instead of login and wait is a huge incentive, especially for people without a static.

    Learning by playing is easier than learning by seeing. I know I‘ve said this multiple times already: Blizzard is doing something very intelligent here.LFR allows the people to create a bond to raids, that‘s why world-firsts are so popular on Twitch. They know the mechanics of the bosses, because they fought them themselves, just an easier version. They‘ve been there themselves! One of the reasons I think Strike Missions were doomed to fail, as I mentioned earlier is that they don‘t create this bond as they are totally different bosses.

    Obviously it will need a lot of developer attention, sadly Strike Missions got the attention in the hope to get people into raiding, without creating that bond. So yes, we‘ll have to wait and see, but I‘m not very optimistic about it. Blizzard already shared their solution, Anet just has to look at it.

    So let's translate this to raids:If raids where made easier, there would be a huge influx of players, again huge can be relative, many of which would take a peek. Many of those players would soon leave, given how this content is not something they enjoy to begin with, or stick around long enough to get the shiny they want, then leave. While the players who actually enjoyed the content would abandon it even faster than they are now.

    I don‘t necessarily agree. Bringing more players into raids would be huge for assets reuse. It doesn‘t matter if the content is farmed, as long as players are actively looking to do it. It‘s the same with the story for many players (I suppose, no numbers so baseless assumption). It‘s a do once and done deal. But herein lies the beauty: You just reuse everything, change a few mechanics here and there, and create a new tier above it.And then another for the extremely dedicated raiders. You can do that, because you‘re not only designing for a small amount of people, but everyone, just like Forging Steel (which was honestly a really boring escort mission). But everyone was able to do it.They could have created a harder Forging Steel on top of that (ignoring the motes since they aren‘t really hard, and escort quests aren‘t really exciting as raids, so maybe not FS, but a future 10man story ;)).The same thing could have been done for some of the Story fights, Mordemoth had the really clunky version, but without rewards, of course no one is going to replay it.

    TL;DR Designing content in a way it can be used by multiple target groups is intelligent. The current raids, as well as the story aren‘t like that.

    What about a story and easy mode for the Raids?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:Raid launch sucked the life out of GW2 for me.I wish GW2 had something similiar to Flexible Raids in WoW, but I doubt Anet will do a lot about it, given the current population situation.It‘s just puzzling to me that Anet hasn‘t figured out the problem, when other MMO developers already have the solution. There‘s a reason LFR is a thing in WoW.

    I think I get what you are aiming for, but not sure you gave this further thought. Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't WoW flex raids start at 10 players, while GW2 raids cap out at 10 players?

    How would flex raids be comparable? Is your argument that GW2 should have flex raids for 1 to 10 players, or that the current raid size needs to increase to even allow for sensible flex adjustments?

    WoW 10 mans also used to cap out at 10 players. Flex was introduced so that you could take more people to not leave anyone behind.My argument is that flexible group sizes should be a thing.The lowest player amount of the groups are something Anet has to decide before implementing and optimize after. Only because WoW has the minimum set to 10 doesn‘t mean GW2 has to. This isn‘t WoW. So it could start at 3, or 5 or 10. There‘s also no boundary for the maximum, it could go up to or even start at 10, 13, 33 or more, depending on Anets‘ findings during tests. The boundaries aren’t set in stone.

    Sure, but it makes a huge difference which of both you mean. A common complaint in GW2 is that raids already take a huge amount of organization, and that is with 10 players. I doubt this would get better with an increased player count, though I do see the appeal to run this as bigger guild maybe.

    In case of reducing the player size, there are bosses which would become impossible. Say Deimos, how are you going to:
    • tank
    • hand kite
    • black kite
    • heal
    • dps

    while dealing with the add and getting teleported between 2 areas with less than 5 players? (this can be applied to many bosses be it Dhuum, Twins, Qadim, Qadim 2, Xera, etc. Nearly every boss has some type of mechanics which need to be covered by multiple players).

    On the flip side, say you increase the amount of players. How would bosses which have mechanics where 1 player failing can cause the entire encounter to fail feel with suddenly 30 players? The reason flex raids work in WoW is because it is a simple scaling process inherent in that games gear system, and even there, there are certain break points of player count which are easier or harder due to even only numeric scaling.

    Not saying this would be a bad idea for GW2, just saying that it would by far not be as easy to implement as in say WoW.

    Remove mechanics just like WoW already does depending on group size. LFR, Normal HC and Mythic also have different scalings and mechanical changes. WoW scales both in group size as well as difficulty. It‘s not simply numerical.

    From all I could find, all it does is change the amount of players hit from attacks. Removal of mechanics is not within a flex raid, but between difficulties. Meaning a 10 player flex raid will encounter the exact same mechanics, scaled down to 10 players in damage and healing requirements as well as players hit, as a flex raid with 25 players. The removal of mechanics only happens between different difficulties of that raid say between normal and heroic. Or am I wrong?

    While it didn‘t happen often, mechanical changes besides amount of players hit, did happen.Sha of Pride and prison amount, or the old Garrosh encounter before being patched would be examples.So yes, it is possible for Anet to do something similiar.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Of course there will be optimal group sizes, you can‘t really create a perfect scaling system when players are involved.Encounters where one player can fail the encounter and cause a wipe are nothing new in WoW, same thing for fights with special roles.

    Sure, but those usually come in at far higher difficulties, and in GW2 case I'm unsure how this would in any way benefit weaker players who are already challenged. It would make for interesting hardcore runs though.

    By scaling down the responsibility on lower player numbers it would benefit weaker players.You could also dynamically scale timers depending on group sizes, increasing the time someone has to do a certain mechanic.

    This is all true for not instant fail mechanics, which is what I was referring to. In essence you are asking for the removal of instant fail mechanics from any encounter which is scaled up.

    Instant fail mechanics, N‘Zoth was notorious for wiping groups in LFR. Those were, of course, hotfixed for a good reason. Instant fail mechanics aren‘t really good design, especially not in PuG‘s / LFR.They are fine in coordinated groups like Mythic, but can still be frustrating to deal with even with the best groups when tied to an even buggier encounter (Azshara hehe).

    @Raknar.4735 said:Heal/Tanks/DPS is just the basis in WoW, not every fight boils down to tank and spank.The gear system just helps making encounters easy by overgearing, it doesn‘t really have any bearing on flex.

    I will have to disagree here given that outgearing content directly means being able to carry weaker players. You should know that. It has no bearing on the scaling yes, which makes it even more potent when outgeared players come in.

    I‘d go so far that since we don‘t have gear scaling, maybe the starting difficulty of raids shouldn‘t be set so high in GW2.WoW raids will get easier with time, since you‘ll start to outgear encounters until you can completely ignore some of the mechanics, in some cases even wipe mechanics with average skill. So even the worst players in WoW will be able to complete the content. Not to mention that LFR and in many cases normal difficulty is barely failable.Compared to GW2, where the average player does 10x less dps than the top end and can‘t clear within the enrage timer, WoW raids seem pretty forgiving.

    True, that I agree with. GW2 raids are more akin to heroic or in some cases mythic light raids when compared to WoW. Less as time in WoW passes on. The huge benefit here that WoW players enjoy is that as the gear level increases, more payers get to see the content.

    They actually get to see the content from the get go, just with a different difficulty. Intelligent design on Blizzards‘ side, they reuse the same assets for different target groups. Nothing is wasted as even the worst players can beat LFR.

    That in turn requires either gear progression, or a significant "dumbing" down of challenging end game content. That's what strikes tried to do, and from my personal subjective impression, failed at (though I specifically add subjective, the developers will have far different numbers).

    I share this sentiment. I‘d go even as far as saying Strike Missions were doomed to fail from the start for various reasons.

    The problem with challenging content is simple (and why strikes are where they are now):those who enjoy, it enjoy it for the challenge and stick with it due to that challenge, until they quit. Those who do not enjoy the challenge either never play the content, or drop out after seeing it a few times. That's why strikes are dying out as time progresses. The only players left are the hardcore players who haven't grown bored (I believe most have) while the vast majority of more casual players (meaning in this case players who do not enjoy challenging content, not mean in a negative way) dropped out months ago, and some farmers.

    Mostly agree. Not so much about the terminology as casual/hardcore only depends on time spent dedicated to the game in my opinion.

    I also see a problem that many don‘t even see a way of entry to raids and get quickly turned off. I wonder if the average player even knows about them.I belong to the group of people that stopped raiding because the current version of the gamemode simply doesn‘t interest me. The only reason I did them was for the rewards. Once I got what I wanted, I dipped out of my static to let someone else take my place that wasn‘t able to get into raids before (he wasn‘t fond of pugging).

    What about a story and easy mode for the Raids?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Asgaeroth.6427 said:Raid launch sucked the life out of GW2 for me.I wish GW2 had something similiar to Flexible Raids in WoW, but I doubt Anet will do a lot about it, given the current population situation.It‘s just puzzling to me that Anet hasn‘t figured out the problem, when other MMO developers already have the solution. There‘s a reason LFR is a thing in WoW.

    I think I get what you are aiming for, but not sure you gave this further thought. Please correct me if I am wrong, but don't WoW flex raids start at 10 players, while GW2 raids cap out at 10 players?

    How would flex raids be comparable? Is your argument that GW2 should have flex raids for 1 to 10 players, or that the current raid size needs to increase to even allow for sensible flex adjustments?

    WoW 10 mans also used to cap out at 10 players. Flex was introduced so that you could take more people to not leave anyone behind.My argument is that flexible group sizes should be a thing.The lowest player amount of the groups are something Anet has to decide before implementing and optimize after. Only because WoW has the minimum set to 10 doesn‘t mean GW2 has to. This isn‘t WoW. So it could start at 3, or 5 or 10. There‘s also no boundary for the maximum, it could go up to or even start at 10, 13, 33 or more, depending on Anets‘ findings during tests. The boundaries aren’t set in stone.

    Sure, but it makes a huge difference which of both you mean. A common complaint in GW2 is that raids already take a huge amount of organization, and that is with 10 players. I doubt this would get better with an increased player count, though I do see the appeal to run this as bigger guild maybe.

    In case of reducing the player size, there are bosses which would become impossible. Say Deimos, how are you going to:
    • tank
    • hand kite
    • black kite
    • heal
    • dps

    while dealing with the add and getting teleported between 2 areas with less than 5 players? (this can be applied to many bosses be it Dhuum, Twins, Qadim, Qadim 2, Xera, etc. Nearly every boss has some type of mechanics which need to be covered by multiple players).

    On the flip side, say you increase the amount of players. How would bosses which have mechanics where 1 player failing can cause the entire encounter to fail feel with suddenly 30 players? The reason flex raids work in WoW is because it is a simple scaling process inherent in that games gear system, and even there, there are certain break points of player count which are easier or harder due to even only numeric scaling.

    Not saying this would be a bad idea for GW2, just saying that it would by far not be as easy to implement as in say WoW.

    Remove mechanics just like WoW already does depending on group size. LFR, Normal HC and Mythic also have different scalings and mechanical changes. WoW scales both in group size as well as difficulty. It‘s not simply numerical.

    From all I could find, all it does is change the amount of players hit from attacks. Removal of mechanics is not within a flex raid, but between difficulties. Meaning a 10 player flex raid will encounter the exact same mechanics, scaled down to 10 players in damage and healing requirements as well as players hit, as a flex raid with 25 players. The removal of mechanics only happens between different difficulties of that raid say between normal and heroic. Or am I wrong?

    While it didn‘t happen often, mechanical changes besides amount of players hit, did happen.Sha of Pride and prison amount, or the old Garrosh encounter before being patched would be examples.So yes, it is possible for Anet to do something similiar.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Of course there will be optimal group sizes, you can‘t really create a perfect scaling system when players are involved.Encounters where one player can fail the encounter and cause a wipe are nothing new in WoW, same thing for fights with special roles.

    Sure, but those usually come in at far higher difficulties, and in GW2 case I'm unsure how this would in any way benefit weaker players who are already challenged. It would make for interesting hardcore runs though.

    By scaling down the responsibility on lower player numbers it would benefit weaker players.You could also dynamically scale timers depending on group sizes, increasing the time someone has to do a certain mechanic.

    @Raknar.4735 said:Heal/Tanks/DPS is just the basis in WoW, not every fight boils down to tank and spank.The gear system just helps making encounters easy by overgearing, it doesn‘t really have any bearing on flex.

    I will have to disagree here given that outgearing content directly means being able to carry weaker players. You should know that. It has no bearing on the scaling yes, which makes it even more potent when outgeared players come in.

    I‘d go so far that since we don‘t have gear scaling, maybe the starting difficulty of raids shouldn‘t be set so high in GW2.WoW raids will get easier with time, since you‘ll start to outgear encounters until you can completely ignore some of the mechanics, in some cases even wipe mechanics with average skill. So even the worst players in WoW will be able to complete the content. Not to mention that LFR and in many cases normal difficulty is barely failable.Compared to GW2, where the average player does 10x less dps than the top end and can‘t clear within the enrage timer, WoW raids seem pretty forgiving.

GuildWars2.com
ArenaNet

©2020 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. All trademarks are the property of their respective owners.

ESRB - Teen
×
×
  • Create New...