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Raknar.4735

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    Welcome to the new forum [MERGED]

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Raknar.4735
    New edit function! Gave my mistaken statement a strikethrough font.

    New forum looks okay (still hoping for a nightmode).

    The new features accounts can use to track posts / threads are great.

    The function that saves comments when closing the thread / reloading the site is great, no more losing comments by mistake!

    You can also now directly give a reason for an edit!

     

    I've also noticed the new moderation rules don't state anything about posting d-ata-mined information. Is that an oversight, or intentional, as it used to give a warning?

    ("d + a" is censored for some reason)

     

     

    It's me, or toxicity increases every year?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    Don't see the problem here, they can create their own group and kick whomever they want.People kick for all sort of things, low DPS, bad dodging, bad gameplay, bad attitude...

    This time the kicked one just happened to be you after saying something that I'd personally percieve as passive-aggressive. The condescending tone of your post and the way you call others "trash" makes we wonder, though.

    Want my opinion? Just create your own group next time, or leave the group sooner.

    What kind of skins do you like?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Sibila.5463 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:Non-glowy stuff. Size depends on the overall theme, so I can‘t give a definite answer there.

    I also like when weapons look „unique/different“. Tengu axe, Tengu GS and Desert King GS are examples that don‘t follow the traditional design of their weapon class. (Or the sab maces that look like a flail instead of a mace, but their design is over the top imo)

    And that's why nobody uses them and the price on TP is low ...And so I think they should do more armor sets game is 9 years old ? recently I spent another EUR 100 on mobile games because there is nothing for to buy in gw2

    This just sounds to me like you don't really look at other characters a lot.You personally might not buy the things on the store, but it's always interesting to see how many people run around in the new outfits on the day they release.

    Why pvp wvw players dont have right to access cool skins?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @frareanselm.1925 said:It should be a way to obtain it by reward tracks. Why pvp players are being forced to do what they hate?

    It's pretty much the same for every gamemode. Triumphant, Glorious and Warlord's armor are only available in PvP / WvW aswell, so a pve player would be forced to play the pvp gamemodes.

    I'd still welcome a change to make every skin available in every gamemode, though.

    If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:The "service both groups of players" was actually regarding raids. You might have to read it again. The source is already there ;)I've also already included what they said about SMs: servicing one tier, while potentially servicing the hardcore audience.

    I edited the post as you wrote this and clarified that part.

    The issue is that you used that article to present as fact that any future raid would service both the hardcore players and those that wanted a story mode when no such statement was made. An assumption is being made on them not wanting to take time away from making new raids in order to add a story mode and them saying they're trying to create content for both groups with strikes.

    I've also edited my post as you wrote this. Sorry, but that article is just as much a fact as your link back to 2016. They've changed their stance and are "at a constant , constant tug" about story mode.The "We want to service both groups" is not an assumption Anet made. It's a clear statement. Not sure why you're arguing here. It's what Anet stated.

    Edit:

    Saw the edit. The only issue that I have with what you said is the assertion that new raids would service both groups. Nowhere did they make that statement so it's not a fact.They made that statement in the article that they "want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.", so it's a fact.

    Also last response, I stated I didn't want to argue about a statement factually Anet made. You'll have to argue with Anet directly about how wrong they're about their own factual statement. ;)

    If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    The "service both groups of players" was actually regarding raids, not strikes. You might have to read it again. The source is already there ;)So yes, that directly is a factual indication that they want to create raids that service both groups, if they ever were to create new ones.

    I've also already included what they said about SMs: servicing one tier, while potentially servicing the hardcore audience. Not sure how you mixxed that up.Also, no point in arguing. Anet made those factual statements, not me.

    If you wanted to keep raids as a game mode, how would you increase participation?

    in Instanced Group Content

    Posted

    Anet has also indicated that they won't rule out story modes for raids.Source: https://pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

    Specifically this part:

    Is there room for a ‘story’ difficulty in raids and other high-end content?

    MZ: There is. There’s a constant, constant tug. Do we go build new raids for the raid group, or do we pull somebody to go make the old raids easier? The Bastion of the Penitent is one that we get a lot of comments on, because it’s the Saul D’Alessio story and the mursaat. It’s a very powerful, moving story, and it was very self-contained to that raid. So unless you’re a raider, you never see it.

    I would not rule it out. The thing that we need to be careful about is how we manage that expectation. Because if we go back and release ‘story mode’ for an individual raid, that is taking time away from other things like being able to build additional raid content for the raiders. We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.

    What sticks out to me specifically is:

    We want to make sure that we’re trying to service both groups.

    As for strike missions, this quote is pretty interesting:

    This is an opportunity for us to find ways to service one tier and potentially service the hardcore audience that is already there.

    So we can safely assume that if Anet were to create new raids, they'd try to "service both groups".I also have no intention to argue, just posting these factual statements from an interview where they've played with the idea of story modes and similiar things.

    If we get GS

    in Revenant

    Posted

    @Kanok.3027 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:Power, AoE, cleaving close/mid range weapon.

    Except both Warrior and Guardian can already do that. Boring. This is why most Rev Greatsword threads are so terrible because people just want what we already have on two other classes, but simply slapped on to Rev because "it looks cool". Can we have something different that actually works and is not just another copy/paste of Warrior and Guardian?

    What warrior and guardian is already able to do should have no relevance for the revenant. This is about the revenant class, not about warriors or guardians.Also, instead of just crying about GS threads because you personally don't like them, maybe give an idea of your own. As it stands your post doesn't really add anything of relevance to this discussion and directly goes against the thread-starters plea of derailing the thread, please and thank you.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    I dunno if that was what was stated, (missed the original statement you were refering to there) but from what I recall on "original" definition of p2w, the quote you are providing is omitting one crucial detail.

    "Anything you can buy from the game cash shop
    with real life money
    that gives you advantage over a player that doesn't spend
    real life money
    on it"

    That's more like definition I've used to know for past 15 years ;)

    And by this clarification there, You may notice we've removed whole gemstore out of equasion - because everything in the gemstore can be acquired with in-game gold. So no matter what was there, as long as we have currency exchange, player is not forced to spend any more irl money than buying the game, to obtain it.

    I also agree with this. It wasn't my quote to begin with, just the one someone else gave that apparently in his opinion is the "actual definition" everyone should go by. I started using it to show that person, that by using that quote everything could be deemed P2W.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

    Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @"Cyninja.2954" definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

    What it was was trying to argue with hyperbole, because you're short on actual facts. You run around this topic, claiming I have ignored your points, all while totally avoiding answering any of the questions I have asked. Don't fret, though, I understand why. If you answered them, you'd find your argument is falling flat.

    Except I have already answered those questions. For some reason you're mentioning questions on things that I've never mentioned, though. Also, the only fact I'm using is your own "actual" definition, so I'm rather baffled how I should be short on facts? It's your own definition. So if anything is falling flat, it is the definition you initialy mentioned about there being an "actual" definition of P2W. But sure, move the goalpost a little more, I'm interested.

    1. How does how fast you level affect me?Someone that lvls with an exp boost technically has an advantage over someone that doesn't lvl with an exp boost. This would be considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    2. How does what mount skins you're using affect me?I've never mentioned mount skins, so why do you ask?

    3. How does you having an expansion I don't have affect me?I've never mentioned expansions, so why do you ask?

    4. How does my getting a LW for free, by logging in at the appropriate time, affect you? Why does it affect you?This has nothing to do with getting it for free or not. Would giving a streamer a completely maxxed character for free in any P2W game make the game any less P2W?Someone that has the LW will have an adventage over someone that doesn't have access to the LW. The paying player does have access to things like the Skyscale and the rollerbeetle, which both are better than any of the other mounts in their own niche. LW also offers easier access to ascended gear. So it is considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    But I also have a question for you:Would you consider that fictional 7777% damage enhancement item P2W if it was only usable in PvE? After all, it wouldn't affect you.

    Edit: Anyways, heading out for a bit, don't expect another answer too soon.
    1. How?
    2. Because they are listed as P2W in these very forums.
    3. You mentioned LS, and having to buy your way in, despite them being free if you log in.
    4. How? Access to stuff that another player doesn't have access to? What about things like Legendary gear? Players have access to it while others don't, and it can be obtained for free too, or strictly through gameplay. This falls especially flat when, as you dismiss in three, you can get the LS for free by simply logging in during the window of it's release. Note: Nobody that's logged in during that window has to pay for it. Nobody.

    So let's not argue in the absurd, yes? I gave perfectly fine examples of what I meant, even if I didn't spell it out enough, my mistake, I wasn't aware that I was going to have to. Expectations for the conversation have been adjusted accordingly. So while you fish for that "GOTCHA" moment, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy how much you are proving me right.
    1. Player A has something which gives them an advantage, which Player B doesn't have. How is that not an advantage?
    2. Yeah, but I didn't mention them, so why ask me? Makes no sense.
    3. LS isn't an expansion, so why ask about expansions?
    4. So you still don't get it. You're also willfully ignoring my answer again. Thanks, was a pleasure "discussing" with you. I see I don't get any answers, yet again. I'm done arguing with someone that argues in bad faith.

    I can't stop arguing the absurd when every question you give is absurd. Your examples are not even relevant to your initial "actual" definition about P2W and actually make no sense, apart from disproving your own definition by going against it. You're asking me stuff about things i've never mentioned, for some reason (are you actually fishing for a "Gotcha" moment?). At this point, you're just acting ridiculous on purpose or are willfullingly obtuse. So yeah, final answer from me, not going to continue falling for your farce.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

    Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @"Cyninja.2954" definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

    What it was was trying to argue with hyperbole, because you're short on actual facts. You run around this topic, claiming I have ignored your points, all while totally avoiding answering any of the questions I have asked. Don't fret, though, I understand why. If you answered them, you'd find your argument is falling flat.

    Except I have already answered those questions. For some reason you're mentioning questions on things that I've never mentioned, though. Also, the only fact I'm using is your own "actual" definition, so I'm rather baffled how I should be short on facts? It's your own definition. So if anything is falling flat, it is the definition you initialy mentioned about there being an "actual" definition of P2W. But sure, move the goalpost a little more, I'm interested.

    1. How does how fast you level affect me?Someone that lvls with an exp boost technically has an advantage over someone that doesn't lvl with an exp boost. This would be considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    2. How does what mount skins you're using affect me?I've never mentioned mount skins, so why do you ask?

    3. How does you having an expansion I don't have affect me?I've never mentioned expansions, so why do you ask?

    4. How does my getting a LW for free, by logging in at the appropriate time, affect you? Why does it affect you?This has nothing to do with getting it for free or not. Would giving a streamer a completely maxxed character for free in any P2W game make the game any less P2W?Someone that has the LW will have an adventage over someone that doesn't have access to the LW. The paying player does have access to things like the Skyscale and the rollerbeetle, which both are better than any of the other mounts in their own niche. LW also offers easier access to ascended gear. So it is considered P2W by your "actual" definition.

    But I also have a question for you:Would you consider that fictional 7777% damage enhancement item P2W if it was only usable in PvE? After all, it wouldn't affect you.

    Edit: Anyways, heading out for a bit, don't expect another answer too soon.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:
    • ~~exp boosters (any boosters) ~~, which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.
    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    It does not misses the point you are trying to make, but it actually counters it fully.The definition you are using is excluding a very important element, meaning it is exclusive to those paying with real money. This is not the case. There can be some debate when the amount of effort put into it in other ways is so big it is not realistic to gain the same result. This could only count for the revive orbs, but the benefit of revive orbs over waypointing is so minor this would not count either.

    By your own words, it actually counters nothing.Those who do pay with real money don't use the ingame gold. This is already an advantage. If you're gaining the same result with less effort it is still an advantage. The benefit of revive orbs may be minor, but it is still a benefit. So going by @robertthebard.8150 definition, it would still be P2W, since those things still offer an advantage, no matter how minor that advantage may be.

    You keep talking about someone's definition, but when the definition is wrong, that is something that should not be ignored. GW2 is not pay to win by far. You make it sound as if. This is the same as saying that games with monthly fees are pay to win, just cause when you do not pay with real money, you do not get to be able to play.

    Pay to win means what it means. You have to pay real life money in order to win the game you are playing. This is not the case. Just that you can buy things that give you an advantage doesnt make it pay to win unless the advantage is exclusive and big enough to make it unfair to those not paying.

    And here's the problem. There isn't actually a current definition of P2W everyone supports. That's why I said the definition of P2W has warped.As you can see @robertthebard.8150 has his own definition.@Cyninja.2954 has his own definition.You have your own definition.There's another definition on Wikipedia.And another one on Urban Dictionary.And many more, depending who you ask.And they all don't match.

    What you probably have missed is that I myself also don't consider GW2 P2W by my definition. I'm purely arguing with @robertthebard.8150 initial "actual" definition and what that would mean for the current shop, as he brought up this "actual" definition that apparently is the alpha and omega in his case.

    @robertthebard.8150 said:I'm referring to the 7777% dmg increase item you cited in your post. You know, you're evidence for P2W?

    Guess it wasn't obvious enough that that was an example for an item that wouldn't be P2W based on @mercury ranique.2170 and @Cyninja.2954 definition of P2W, as anyone would be able to buy that from the cash shop with gold.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:
    • ~~exp boosters (any boosters) ~~, which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.
    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    It does not misses the point you are trying to make, but it actually counters it fully.The definition you are using is excluding a very important element, meaning it is exclusive to those paying with real money. This is not the case. There can be some debate when the amount of effort put into it in other ways is so big it is not realistic to gain the same result. This could only count for the revive orbs, but the benefit of revive orbs over waypointing is so minor this would not count either.

    By your own words, it actually counters nothing.Those who do pay with real money don't use the ingame gold. This is already an advantage. If you're gaining the same result with less effort it is still an advantage. The benefit of revive orbs may be minor, but it is still a benefit. So going by @robertthebard.8150 definition, it would still be P2W, since those things still offer an advantage, no matter how minor that advantage may be.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:
    • ~~exp boosters (any boosters) ~~, which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.
    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    Technically, that's exactly what it means. Anything available in the gem store is not pay-to-win by the traditional definition.

    Originally pay-to-win meant:
    • paying to secure not in-game available benefits which secured the paying party is more powerful than via normal game play achieve-able
    • this extended to sever grind or near unattainable in-game upgrades, for example in case of upgrades which would be theoretically attainable but so expensive that this is not reflected in the game

    Not sure if that is actually the "traditional" definition, but that's beside the point, as I'm arguing about @robertthebard.8150 "actual definition".This one: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."Going by that definition many things could be considered P2W.

    The industry since has changed tremendously. For example, the items offered and incentivization has changed a lot (both for items which are beneficial as well as not beneficial, which blurs the lines and perception). Most often to more extreme measures. Any player who considers things in GW2 pay2win has lost touch with where the rest of the industry is at (especially in regards to expansions being considered pay2win, which was never the issue in the past and for most games still is not. Expansions used to be mandatory to be allowed to continue have access to a games endgame. The fact GW2 is different is being used against it here).

    Exactly, that's why I stated that the term P2W has warped from it's initial definition over time. @robertthebard.8150 is trying to argue that it's definition didn't change over time and that it's "actual definition" still holds up.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:
    • ~~exp boosters (any boosters) ~~, which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.
    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    Gems store items are not exclusive to people with money. You can farm the gold and buy the gems and items you want.These items are perhaps exclusive for the gemsstore, but not exclusive for those with a big wallet in real life.

    That's great, but misses the point I'm arguing completely. This is about if someone gains any advantage at all by paying with real money, which they do. So by @robertthebard.8150 initial definition, they'd essentially be paying to win.

    Your argument would also mean that any item in the gem shop is fine, as anyone is able to buy it. So any boost that enhances damage by 7777% would be fine.

    Pay to win grindfest MMO version of Guild Wars 2.

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    Here are some "additions" :P

    • Players drop their gear on death, other players can loot it. Items can be made undroppable by using a ticket from the cash shop. Each death consumes one ticket charge per item that was bound with a ticket
    • Players can forge the stats of one item into another. This can fail and will destroy the item that is used as a material. This way items can have up to 9 additional different stats, on top of the base ones. The base stats are enhanced based on the stats of the material item
    • Standard +15 weapon and gear enhancement with chances to degrade
    • New innerwear items, Stats on innerwear items only attainable through shop
    • You can use a new ticket on every fractal and raid boss to get double the loot, ticket obviously from the cash shop
    • you can only enter fractals 3 times a day. You can buy fractal-entrance refresh tickets in the cash shop
    • auto-loot now only works via minipets you have to buy from the store, minipets have different rarities, they are only available in gacha/lootboxes

    (Also "9. LW episodes are not free, each episode costs gems." is already the case. The free episodes are a reward for dedicated players.)

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Such as? How does my bank space give me an advantage over you? Are you incapable of selling off items because your inventory space is lower? Will your reaching level cap adversely affect my game play? What's being warped is "advantage", and I'm not the one warping it. Instead, we're looking at exactly what I listed in my last post: But microtransactions are P2W.

    Skyscale LW unlocks: Just LoL? I got the LW for free. I guess logging in is now P2W? This is using your own example here, and you list having it as P2W, so if all one did was log in, it's P2W? This is exactly what I'm talking about with taking what's P2W to the absurd. Congratulations for proving my point?

    Ah, I see. You've cleverly left out:

    • ~~exp boosters (any boosters) ~~, which aren't P2W in your warped opinion about P2W, but definitely are P2W going by the original definition
    • the Infinite Continue Coin
    • revive orbs
    • easier access to ascended gear via LW
    • Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts)

    because it directly contradicts your point. All of them give a paying player an advantage, even if that advantage is small.

    • the skyscale (requires LW unlocks)
    • the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock)

    Are also not free. This is a common misconception some players make. You see, you only get the Living World episodes for free while they're recent. Any new player will still have to pay to get the same advantage. Even if you did get them for logging in, other players that didn't get them are still at a disadvantage.Oh, and let me repeat what you originally stated, again: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."

    LW with the mounts, as well as the rest, sure sound like a buyable advantages to me. Also, this is not taking what's P2W to the absurd, I'm simply using the definition you originally gave (even if you yourself are using a warped, different one).

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Because this is the definition. It is exactly the situation that the term was coined to define. What has become the norm is "microtransactions == P2W", no matter what those transactions are. This includes cosmetics, that add absolutely nothing but appearance changes, mount skins, or even mounts, even when the mount doesn't do anything differently from one readily obtainable in game, except for how it looks. It's even carried over to SP games in the same fashion, where it makes absolutely 0 difference what a player buys, or doesn't buy. So yes, I'd prefer we stick to what P2W actually means, instead of this cobbled together excuse to run at microtransactions. It's not like I'm a big proponent of microtransactions either, I haven't spent fifty bucks on them in the last year, let alone the last few weeks, unlike some players that will. I'm not a fan of loot crates either, to the point where I don't even buy them with a game's stipend of cash shop currency that comes with a sub. However, just the existence of a cash shop does not equate P2W, and you can bet that that's where this thread was wanting to go.

    So if you'd prefer to stick to what P2W "actually" means ( "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."), why did you answer "No"? I've listed some things that do give advantages in my previous post, so going by your definition, GW2 would be P2W.

    You're not adhering to your own definition. Instead you're using a warped personal one.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    No, it's not my personal definition. It's the definition that's applied for 15 years, or more. That I only listed a couple of examples doesn't mean it's just "well, it doesn't count because it's only PvP"... The problem is, the definition "everyone else uses" includes purely cosmetic items, which I've seen on these very forums. "Ooo, he got a mount skin I don't have, P2W"... It seems to me like the last thread along these lines wasn't all that long ago, where the whole CS was predatory, etc. etc.

    Of course, the other problem with you're denial of the definition is that, initially, P2W meant literally that, paying to win. I used the PvP example because it's very clearly "winning". The example from Vindictus, of being able to reset what's supposed to be dailies is another example, they also had actual gear with bonuses in their CS, Tera does as well. swtor requires either a sub, or for you to purchase an unlock to equip artifact grade equipment. It also has a lockout for activities that require unlocks, or a sub, to bypass. So instead of me going on and on with examples of actual P2W scenarios, how about this: Lay out what you feel is P2W here.

    Except it is your personal definition that GW2 isn't P2W while using the definition you gave. And this is a wrong statement to make if we're applying your definition.

    Let us use the definition you gave: "Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it."If we are strict in the usage of the definition you gave, many things will give an advantage, no matter how small that advantage may be and no matter the gamemode.

    This includes things like exp boosters (any boosters), the skyscale (requires LW unlocks), the rolling beetle (requires LW unlock), the Infinite Continue Coin, revive orbs, easier access to ascended gear via LW, Candy Corn Gobbler (stat boosts). All of those items give an advantage to a player compared to a player that doesn't have them.

    So strictly using the definition you gave, GW2 would count as a game with P2W items in the shop, unless you're denying that any of those items give an advantage that is non-cosmetic.

    By saying "No", you are actually going against the original meaning you gave, ignoring items that are not cosmetic items. So you're already using a warped P2W definition.

    (For the record, I don't think GW2 is P2W, but going by the "15 years definition", it would be, as there are items that give advantages in the shop. That's what my original post was about, that people don't use the original meaning anymore, but a warped version of it which allows soft-advantages like exp-boosts etc.)

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

    There is, actually: Anything you can buy from the game's cash shop that gives you an advantage over a player that doesn't buy it. Some examples, from actual P2W games, in Rappelz, you can enchant your gear. If that attempt fails, the item can break, and can't be used until it's repaired. The items to protect against breakage, and to repair items are both CS exclusive items. They aren't bound, so they can be traded amongst players, but their source is the cash shop. This is important because Rappelz has open world non-consensual PvP. So someone that laid out the cash to fully enchant their gear has a distinct advantage over those who don't.

    Setting aside that that definition is just your own definition, and not an "actual definition", that would mean that only things that can be used or affect PvP count as P2W. Is that what your definition of P2W is?

    If that is the case, it definitely isn't the definition everyone else uses.

    Is Guild Wars 2 Pay2win?

    in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

    Posted

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @"Raknar.4735" said:The definition of P2W has been warped in the last few years, so it depends on what definition you're applying to the game.

    Nah, it just requires that players stick to the actual definition, instead of lumping anything they don't like into same wheelhouse. I mean, I've seen cosmetic skins listed as P2W on these forums. So no, the best idea is to reject the "but I want it, and can't buy it, so it's P2W" arguments.

    But that's the problem. There is no "actual definition" of P2W.

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