SoV.5139

something with high mobility like SB daredevil, and some speed runes, can keep up with a mounted zerg pretty well, at least to cap the structures needed. Then play what you want after getting the mount.

+1 It Never EndsEspecially since people in general frown upon sustain/bunker builds as crutches for the "unskilled" and being carried by build, while glass cannon is how "skilled" players fight as they will always recommend more berserker when you learn how to use your class. So the kitten arguments indeed never ends.Yeah pretty much this. Alot of overlap in those who complained during the bunker meta and those who complain in the one shot kill meta that resulted from complaining about the bunker meta.

The funny thing is when people were talking about stuff like this in the sic'em SB threads it kept being dismissed. Did anyone believe the nerf of that meme was going to cause those players to graduate to playing something with a skill floor? :p :p :p

Some manage to play WvW with a broken mount for 3+months, some dont. The contradiction is they all claim to want fights on the forums, but are all mounted up and trolling eachother in game to see if the other guy will blow their kit to dismount them. If they all wanted the fights as claimed, mounts are a non issue. The contradiction to me is WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN A OPEN WORLD PVP MAP IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO PVP ? PVP does not mean mindlessly fighting through anything that comes your way. A support build running back to its PPT zerg is doing the right thing by avoiding being singled out and ganked, and using the available tools to do so. There seems to be no shortage of roamers who want to fight it out the way you describe on the forums, so why arent the WvW maps as populated with these players as the forums are? Do these folks not wish to fight others who are set up for the same, and are only mad because they cant gank builds not set up for the same? "PVP does not mean mindlessly fighting through anything that comes your way." "running back to its PPT zerg" Also, just because the tools are available doesn't mean they are balanced, because they obviously aren't. sPvP is your friend. Wvw isnt spvp. What does this have to do with the contradictory comment i qouted? @"Whiteout.1975" has perfectly explained already what is wrong with the mode, it is an open zone PvP mode. What does SPvP have to do with open world PvP, why has the whole philosophy of it suddenly bne changed to be different from open PvP in about any other MMORPG just because mounts came out? It makes zero sense here. But what has your reply to do with what i commented again? This is not open world pvp. The main part of wvw is capture objective team based in a pvp environment. It means not everyone is rolling in their top pvp single target dps build. Why does every single mmo with pvp zones or realm vs realm always have pve aspects to it? It is to draw pvers into a pvp mode because there are not enough gankers/griefers to have a full open pvp world mmo w/o them. Imaging just a mmo w open world pvp and all of you full pvp specced could only fight other full pvp specced players. Where all the gankers could only fight other gankers. How long would you play that? You all just want to catch weaker easy targets or support specced players on your pvp spec build. There is an entire spvp mode but you gankers are too much of a kitten to play that instead you complain on here all day cuz a staff ele or a reaper got away on their mount and you couldn't insta kill them on multipe cheese builds. Plus for the 10th time anput doesn't play gw2 he just trolls over and over w no clue of how many more fights there are now overall then before. People in support builds ganks me pretty often, why shouldn't i kill support builds too ?Zerglings dont hesitate to jump on me with a group of 10+, why should i not kill them ?PvE elements are there to lure players to fight, not to lure PvErs to a PvP mode, by your logic is DAoC a PvE game ?Also sPvP is trash, 5+ min queues, a lot of bots, MMR is completely broken, wintraders, restrictive builds and so many other issues and differences between WvW and sPvP and thats why many PvPers migrate to WvW.Why people who like to fight should move away from WvW just because you dont like to die in a open world PvP ?Also in regards to having more fights, this is just not true, we barely have 1 map queued even on prime time and other BL's are dead compared to before, there are way less people playing either zergers and roamers. You can kill whoever,however you want it's just you aren't entitled for every single person to fight you if they chose not to for a variety of reasons. Most likely zergling jump you half the time cuz you pick off stragglers which i also do outnumbered. I die all the time I'm not asking you to leave wvw but stop crying cause someone mounts off just like pre mounts dozens of mobile classes ran from me if losing and I was just as helpless in pursuit. Of course the pve aspects are there to lure pveers to do the quest while the pvpers dont do the quests and jump the guys questing again usually for an easy kill cuz that's all you want.Of course there are more fights if you actually take camps def camps and go to where objectives are being taking because every1 gets back to that fight faster. Are there less oppurtunitys to camp an area and pick off reinforcements sure that's kinda gone. Constantly getting jumped between my keep and smc isn't fun or my spawn and keep isn't fun so find other ways to find fights at objectives. I roam on reaper and fight everyone at objectives but no reason to hop off mount vs certain classes in the middle of nowhere. "You can kill whoever,however you want it's just you aren't entitled for every single person to fight you if they chose not to for a variety of reasons." And that is a fundamental design flaw for any PvP game because it inherently creates stalemates. Not entirely. The player will just engage when it works for them and to their advantage. They will basically fight when they're good and ready. Because this is a WvW forum, why on earth would someone (whose trying to go help their group take a keep per-say), hop off their mount and fight you out in the middle of nowhere when they have nothing to gain from it whether they win or lose? What's the point? The map objective in this example calls for our group to collectively try to take a keep, so in what universe would it make sense for me to hop off my mount and fight you? This is a PvP game and you must fight me? Sure, then come to the keep where I'm going and we'll fight there. Sure you may be met with 60 others who'll run you over, but hey, it's a PvP mode right? I will never fight in WvW on someone else's terms at all for any reason what so ever, ever. If they try, they will fail, and they always will. They will get beat, and they will repeatedly get beat (and often targeted and camped until they log). Roamers won't get their way anymore, those days are long gone. The problem here yes is that no one will fight unless it is in their favour, and most won't fight in equal numbers either, or at all. So this creates situations where no one wants to fight ever and poeple just PPT stuff down. This just creates a bad PvE zergfest with no real redeemable qualities. If poeple will only fight when it is in their favor and can always flee, then 1 side will always not fight, resulting in no fights. Where does the PvP come in here? No PvP game does this BS. This just doesn't create a good PvP game. The point before mounts was that if you kill a support on their way to their group, theior group has 1 less support. Very simple and valid strategy. At this point you aren't even playing a PvP mode anymore. Then there wasnt a PVP mode before mounts either. This issue existed well before mounts, but its just the other side griping about it now. That support player running back to their zerg wasnt going to take that fight before mounts just like they wont take the fight now. It was just as boring chasing and killing supports running back to the blob as it is now having to dismount them, or having a few more escape because they have better mobility+3 dodges+10K more HP. Even if they completely did away with mounts, the people who didnt want to take the fights arent going to automagically now take them. The same folks who didnt 1v1 before mounts wont 1v1 after they take them out or give us an easier way to dismount. The myth that people will 1v1 again is akin to the myth that when the OP build is nerfed people will play something that takes skill. Those folks graduate to another meme build, and people not taking roamer fights now arent going to be taking them after any solution is implemented. TL;DR: People arent going to change their preferences for how they play because their playstyle gets nerfed. If it gets nerfed too heavily they find another game. Mounts aren't a playstyle. There a crutch that imbalances the game mode as well as leads to more questionable development that takes unneeded resources. What have mounts done for the mode though?-Increase speed of Ktrain-Gave an extra layer of defenses to already bunkered specs-Allowed groups of players to easily gank newer/f2p players-Desync'd player position-Lowered overall player engagement unless its through zerg/blob combat-Lowered overall risk for player build choice of the game mode-Helped to lower overall WvW population If players dont want to 1v1 they need to just find a group or join the blob and learn how to maneuver to their destination. Maps already reveal stealthed/roaming players if near towers/keeps/sentries so if you dont want to fight them then you gain map awareness, stack swiftness and rush to the closest teammate.All I'm saying is people arent going to play differently simply because you take their toys away. They will graduate to another version of the same toy, or if their playstyle is at too much of a disadvantage, find a different game to play. WvW is not going to turn into a wasteland of wandering support builds to kill before they reach their squad if mounts were to be redacted.

Some manage to play WvW with a broken mount for 3+months, some dont. The contradiction is they all claim to want fights on the forums, but are all mounted up and trolling eachother in game to see if the other guy will blow their kit to dismount them. If they all wanted the fights as claimed, mounts are a non issue. The contradiction to me is WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN A OPEN WORLD PVP MAP IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO PVP ? PVP does not mean mindlessly fighting through anything that comes your way. A support build running back to its PPT zerg is doing the right thing by avoiding being singled out and ganked, and using the available tools to do so. There seems to be no shortage of roamers who want to fight it out the way you describe on the forums, so why arent the WvW maps as populated with these players as the forums are? Do these folks not wish to fight others who are set up for the same, and are only mad because they cant gank builds not set up for the same? "PVP does not mean mindlessly fighting through anything that comes your way." "running back to its PPT zerg" Also, just because the tools are available doesn't mean they are balanced, because they obviously aren't. sPvP is your friend. Wvw isnt spvp. What does this have to do with the contradictory comment i qouted? @"Whiteout.1975" has perfectly explained already what is wrong with the mode, it is an open zone PvP mode. What does SPvP have to do with open world PvP, why has the whole philosophy of it suddenly bne changed to be different from open PvP in about any other MMORPG just because mounts came out? It makes zero sense here. But what has your reply to do with what i commented again? This is not open world pvp. The main part of wvw is capture objective team based in a pvp environment. It means not everyone is rolling in their top pvp single target dps build. Why does every single mmo with pvp zones or realm vs realm always have pve aspects to it? It is to draw pvers into a pvp mode because there are not enough gankers/griefers to have a full open pvp world mmo w/o them. Imaging just a mmo w open world pvp and all of you full pvp specced could only fight other full pvp specced players. Where all the gankers could only fight other gankers. How long would you play that? You all just want to catch weaker easy targets or support specced players on your pvp spec build. There is an entire spvp mode but you gankers are too much of a kitten to play that instead you complain on here all day cuz a staff ele or a reaper got away on their mount and you couldn't insta kill them on multipe cheese builds. Plus for the 10th time anput doesn't play gw2 he just trolls over and over w no clue of how many more fights there are now overall then before. People in support builds ganks me pretty often, why shouldn't i kill support builds too ?Zerglings dont hesitate to jump on me with a group of 10+, why should i not kill them ?PvE elements are there to lure players to fight, not to lure PvErs to a PvP mode, by your logic is DAoC a PvE game ?Also sPvP is trash, 5+ min queues, a lot of bots, MMR is completely broken, wintraders, restrictive builds and so many other issues and differences between WvW and sPvP and thats why many PvPers migrate to WvW.Why people who like to fight should move away from WvW just because you dont like to die in a open world PvP ?Also in regards to having more fights, this is just not true, we barely have 1 map queued even on prime time and other BL's are dead compared to before, there are way less people playing either zergers and roamers. You can kill whoever,however you want it's just you aren't entitled for every single person to fight you if they chose not to for a variety of reasons. Most likely zergling jump you half the time cuz you pick off stragglers which i also do outnumbered. I die all the time I'm not asking you to leave wvw but stop crying cause someone mounts off just like pre mounts dozens of mobile classes ran from me if losing and I was just as helpless in pursuit. Of course the pve aspects are there to lure pveers to do the quest while the pvpers dont do the quests and jump the guys questing again usually for an easy kill cuz that's all you want.Of course there are more fights if you actually take camps def camps and go to where objectives are being taking because every1 gets back to that fight faster. Are there less oppurtunitys to camp an area and pick off reinforcements sure that's kinda gone. Constantly getting jumped between my keep and smc isn't fun or my spawn and keep isn't fun so find other ways to find fights at objectives. I roam on reaper and fight everyone at objectives but no reason to hop off mount vs certain classes in the middle of nowhere. "You can kill whoever,however you want it's just you aren't entitled for every single person to fight you if they chose not to for a variety of reasons." And that is a fundamental design flaw for any PvP game because it inherently creates stalemates. Not entirely. The player will just engage when it works for them and to their advantage. They will basically fight when they're good and ready. Because this is a WvW forum, why on earth would someone (whose trying to go help their group take a keep per-say), hop off their mount and fight you out in the middle of nowhere when they have nothing to gain from it whether they win or lose? What's the point? The map objective in this example calls for our group to collectively try to take a keep, so in what universe would it make sense for me to hop off my mount and fight you? This is a PvP game and you must fight me? Sure, then come to the keep where I'm going and we'll fight there. Sure you may be met with 60 others who'll run you over, but hey, it's a PvP mode right? I will never fight in WvW on someone else's terms at all for any reason what so ever, ever. If they try, they will fail, and they always will. They will get beat, and they will repeatedly get beat (and often targeted and camped until they log). Roamers won't get their way anymore, those days are long gone. The problem here yes is that no one will fight unless it is in their favour, and most won't fight in equal numbers either, or at all. So this creates situations where no one wants to fight ever and poeple just PPT stuff down. This just creates a bad PvE zergfest with no real redeemable qualities. If poeple will only fight when it is in their favor and can always flee, then 1 side will always not fight, resulting in no fights. Where does the PvP come in here? No PvP game does this BS. This just doesn't create a good PvP game. The point before mounts was that if you kill a support on their way to their group, theior group has 1 less support. Very simple and valid strategy. At this point you aren't even playing a PvP mode anymore.Then there wasnt a PVP mode before mounts either. This issue existed well before mounts, but its just the other side griping about it now. That support player running back to their zerg wasnt going to take that fight before mounts just like they wont take the fight now. It was just as boring chasing and killing supports running back to the blob as it is now having to dismount them, or having a few more escape because they have better mobility+3 dodges+10K more HP. Even if they completely did away with mounts, the people who didnt want to take the fights arent going to automagically now take them. The same folks who didnt 1v1 before mounts wont 1v1 after they take them out or give us an easier way to dismount. The myth that people will 1v1 again is akin to the myth that when the OP build is nerfed people will play something that takes skill. Those folks graduate to another meme build, and people not taking roamer fights now arent going to be taking them after any solution is implemented. TL;DR: People arent going to change their preferences for how they play because their playstyle gets nerfed. If it gets nerfed too heavily they find another game.

lol what do you expect from a PvE focused game where you need to press a button to kill people and both PvP modes are on maintenance mode ?High skill gameplay ? High skill game play would be roamer builds fighting other roamer builds. Lets not confuse that with roamers getting mad because they cant gank zerg support builds who dont want to take 1v1s, which the mount helps them to avoid. If you guys do get your way and it becomes easier to gank zerg support builds running back to their zerg, this will not restore one iota of high skill game play. The problem with people that only play WvW in a zerg is that they dont know what happens outside zergs.Roaming is not about picking a thief and gank people between spawn and keep.Alpine BL's were so much more populated pre-mount with so many different buildsNow we only play on EBG with cheese builds because it's the only way we can dismount people and get fights.I used to roam on a sword weaver build i couldnt gank people not even if i wanted toWe have less people playing, less build diversity, ganking is way worse than before and we play only in 1 map.Now i can only fights if i gank people in EB with a 1 shot build and where most zerglings are.All this because people find WvW unplayable if they die walking from spawn to keep to a backstab thief We''ll see if youre right once they put the dismount skill in the game, and if the cheese builds disappear. My money in the office pool is on them not only NOT disappearing, but multiplying. They were there long before mounts, and will be there long after. Nothing will change.Dismount skill only works if you're mounted too, people will play cheese builds to dismount if they're not mountedUnless Anet change Warclaw HP, dodges and bonus speed, Warclaw will be used as a shield and a ganking toolPeople playing cheese builds solely due to not being willing to let a support necro slide past the grid three times a week? :p

lol what do you expect from a PvE focused game where you need to press a button to kill people and both PvP modes are on maintenance mode ?High skill gameplay ? High skill game play would be roamer builds fighting other roamer builds. Lets not confuse that with roamers getting mad because they cant gank zerg support builds who dont want to take 1v1s, which the mount helps them to avoid. If you guys do get your way and it becomes easier to gank zerg support builds running back to their zerg, this will not restore one iota of high skill game play. The problem with people that only play WvW in a zerg is that they dont know what happens outside zergs.Roaming is not about picking a thief and gank people between spawn and keep.Alpine BL's were so much more populated pre-mount with so many different buildsNow we only play on EBG with cheese builds because it's the only way we can dismount people and get fights.I used to roam on a sword weaver build i couldnt gank people not even if i wanted toWe have less people playing, less build diversity, ganking is way worse than before and we play only in 1 map.Now i can only fights if i gank people in EB with a 1 shot build and where most zerglings are.All this because people find WvW unplayable if they die walking from spawn to keep to a backstab thief We''ll see if youre right once they put the dismount skill in the game, and if the cheese builds disappear. My money in the office pool is on them not only NOT disappearing, but multiplying. They were there long before mounts, and will be there long after. Dismount skill doesnt do anything aside from giving the outnumbered team more of a disadvantage. Thats kind of the point. Lets see what happens to the "cheese build head count" after it is implemented.

lol what do you expect from a PvE focused game where you need to press a button to kill people and both PvP modes are on maintenance mode ?High skill gameplay ? High skill game play would be roamer builds fighting other roamer builds. Lets not confuse that with roamers getting mad because they cant gank zerg support builds who dont want to take 1v1s, which the mount helps them to avoid. If you guys do get your way and it becomes easier to gank zerg support builds running back to their zerg, this will not restore one iota of high skill game play. The problem with people that only play WvW in a zerg is that they dont know what happens outside zergs.Roaming is not about picking a thief and gank people between spawn and keep.Alpine BL's were so much more populated pre-mount with so many different buildsNow we only play on EBG with cheese builds because it's the only way we can dismount people and get fights.I used to roam on a sword weaver build i couldnt gank people not even if i wanted toWe have less people playing, less build diversity, ganking is way worse than before and we play only in 1 map.Now i can only fights if i gank people in EB with a 1 shot build and where most zerglings are.All this because people find WvW unplayable if they die walking from spawn to keep to a backstab thiefWe''ll see if youre right once they put the dismount skill in the game, and if the cheese builds disappear. My money in the office pool is on them not only NOT disappearing, but multiplying. They were there long before mounts, and will be there long after.

lol what do you expect from a PvE focused game where you need to press a button to kill people and both PvP modes are on maintenance mode ?High skill gameplay ? High skill game play would be roamer builds fighting other roamer builds. Lets not confuse that with roamers getting mad because they cant gank zerg support builds who dont want to take 1v1s, which the mount helps them to avoid. If you guys do get your way and it becomes easier to gank zerg support builds running back to their zerg, this will not restore one iota of high skill game play.

Next time when we play in an open world PvP environment, say, a battle royale, please don't shoot me, i don't like fighting players til the last circle. Quoting @"SoV.5139" PVP does not mean mindlessly fighting through anything that comes your way. A support build running back to its PPT zerg is doing the right thing by avoiding being singled out and ganked, and using the available tools to do so. Open world PvP means just that. If you are attacked you do one of 3 things:Die, Escape, Fight. If someone is specced to stop players from meeting back up with their group, then thats their role. It is more effective if they manage to stop supports from regrouping with their zerg. The odds of fighting someone on these forums, especially from a low population of people who roam religiously is already slim given the games WvW population. And if they did want to fight players set up for the same then they do SPvP. What irks me is this : people who used to play an overpowered gank oneshot build that got nerfed, play another class with another overpowered gank oneshot build and have the audacity to tell me how to play wvw. The notion that I somehow HAVE to stay and fight every "roamer" because this is a competitive gamemode. Its not that people are telling you that you have to fight every "roamer". Its that if you aren't running a roaming build and you are caught out in the open all alone then you should be at an extreme disadvantage. Sure you are fully obligated to attempt to escape, while the "roamer" is surely obligated to cut off your zerg from reinforcements by killing you. Much like if a "roamer" tries to help defend bay because they want that sweet waypoint, they, much like you earlier would be at an extreme disadvantage because they are not built to deal with large scale. The problem arises when one of those two disadvantages is 100% negated by the current state of mounts. You with your large scale build are not disadvantaged or punished for being caught alone in a small scale fight because of your mount. Whilst the "roamer" still has to live with their trade off, that being their inability to help deal with large scale. This severely diminishes the role of one player and significantly bolsters the effectiveness of another. It further dumbs down what was once a diversified game mode, which had many different styles of play. It further removes skill, ability and player coordination from the game. Most old school "roamers" that I know have long abandoned this game due to many previous reasons of which mounts are only the latest. (I still hate gliding so much, I could write a novel about it). But the few of us that remain still get some enjoyment out of the husk of what this game could have been. Mounts however are simply a bridge too far and break the game on a whole new level. Anet seem to agree, with the upcoming dismount skill. I only hope it is the first of many changes that will be brought to mounts in WvW, or else this game mode will surpass even my low expectations and devolve into a continuous game of ring around the rosie, where everyone goes round and round the map in our respective zergs each avoiding the other in a perpetual loop of monotony. People are leaving GW2 because they cant gank zerg support builds on roaming builds?

Some manage to play WvW with a broken mount for 3+months, some dont. The contradiction is they all claim to want fights on the forums, but are all mounted up and trolling eachother in game to see if the other guy will blow their kit to dismount them. If they all wanted the fights as claimed, mounts are a non issue. The contradiction to me is WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN A OPEN WORLD PVP MAP IF YOU'RE NOT WILLING TO PVP ? PVP does not mean mindlessly fighting through anything that comes your way. A support build running back to its PPT zerg is doing the right thing by avoiding being singled out and ganked, and using the available tools to do so. There seems to be no shortage of roamers who want to fight it out the way you describe on the forums, so why arent the WvW maps as populated with these players as the forums are? Do these folks not wish to fight others who are set up for the same, and are only mad because they cant gank builds not set up for the same?

Some manage to play WvW with a broken mount for 3+months, some dont. The contradiction is they all claim to want fights on the forums, but are all mounted up and trolling eachother in game to see if the other guy will blow their kit to dismount them. If they all wanted the fights as claimed, mounts are a non issue.

The forums are far more detrimental to ganking those support builds trying to run back to their zerg than any mount is. Every moment spent advocating for someone elses toy to be nerfed is a missed opportunity that could have been used to dismount some poor necro on their way back to a k-train.

Barrier based on DPS/nerfs DPS In other news, untethering scrapper from heal spec has caused people to explore non scrapper support specs. None of them are any good yet though, as they arent providing so much more heals than other heal specs that they make up for the permastab of FB or the auras of tempest.

The un-nerfing of druid would be a good start.

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2. When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth. And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc. Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken. Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW. Pretty much this. Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter. Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors. Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief. This must be why everybody is running a thief in WvW and why rangers and engie's are so rare. Very true, its a proven fact that blowing all your init on runaway skills doesn't leave you vulnerable at all. Because having no init left is nothing like having now cooldowns.Two things can be powerful for two different reasons. Example: Where do you think all those meme rangers graduated to after their toy got shaved down a bit eh? To another meme of course - likely the one they were playing before meme SB was a thing, and still trot out of the stable for no-down-state weeks. Resetting fights on init is miles ahead of resetting fights using CDs, as that init will be back to full long before that escape kit on other classes (using multiple util abilities as well) is off CD

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2. When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth. And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc. Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken. Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW. Pretty much this. Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter. Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors. Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief. Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers. Engie with rocket boots, rifle, holo leap can easily escape most fights, and or catch up to most including a thief who has (as you just said used ini on short bow) which means 9/10 of the time they have 0 ini left to fight back where as engie still has a full weapon set + holo mode and taking rocket boots doesn't even screw over their build neither. I know this because I have been on both ends. You're right, no stealth stacking is on par with theif, though that thief build is pure gimmick and are not as common as s/d or condi builds.I play both classes as well:If the desire is to just escape both can do it.If the desire is to reset the fight and apply more pressure, thief is miles ahead as init is back to full long before that entire kit you just blew to escape on the engi is off CD.

Yeah a major part of the issue in 1v1s is thief losing = escape, while other builds losing = character death + respawn. A player could be so much better on another build that they would win 9 out of every 10 1v1 fights, but that just means the thief needs t reset the fight 10 times on average until they get to the 1 in 10 occurrence where they win. Its the least disappointing class to learn how to play as long as you learn the escape kit first for any build, as this means dying much MUCH less than you do learning anything else.

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2. When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth. And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc. Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken. Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW. Pretty much this. Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter. Rangers and engie have good stealth (if they wanted) along with good mobility yet they have the sustain of warriors.Rangers and Engie do not have the stealth of thief, or the mobility of thief. Ranger can get close for mobility but needs to blow entire kits while the thief can spam the same ability using init. There are no perma stealth rangers.

Here's where the contradiction lies. There are tons of "roamers" on the forums claiming roaming sucks now that mounts are in WvW. Are you all on the same server?Since the answer is likely no, why aren't you all fighting each other 1v1 in WvW?

If you don't understand why invisibility is OP in open world type PvP then it is you that needs to learn to play. It is the same in pretty much every game, even ones that have far more counters than in GW2. When I play ESO and want ez-mode when I go roaming, you know what two classes I play, magsorc because mobility like stealth is OP in these game modes or I play nightblade because of stealth. And to put GW2's pitiful reveal in perspective, in ESO every single class has access to reveal skills that can simply be slotted in on your bar (in any build if you want), then AOE skills reveal you (in game where there are no cooldowns so AOE can be spammed) and then detect pots on top of that. And guess what it is still faceroll OP even then, I can do things on my nightblade that I could only dream of on my necro, DK, etc. Stealth (at least the typical full out invis) simply does not work as a balanced mechanic in things like WvW. If I play my thief in WvW and start losing a fight, then the vast majority of the time if I want I can disengage that fight, yet I am not punished for playing poorly, nor is the chap I am fighting rewarded for outplaying me, that is broken. Yet if I play sPvP and do the same thing, I am punished by losing the capture circle, failing to make use of our 2v1 which then means we are 3v4 the rest of the map, etc, and conversely my opponent is rewarded by the flipside of those things for outplaying me. And that risk vs reward is the basis for balance in a game, which is missing from WvW in so many aspects and that is one of the reasons it why it died 4+ years ago, not because a few players so bad that they think a weak band-aid like reveal is monstrously unfair to stealth in WvW. Pretty much this. Along with the fact that giving good stealth and good mobility to the same class is typically a no-no. This is before we even discuss giving them a counter for the counter.

Sounds like some LB2 burst-lords went back to their old meme build after their toy got shaved down a bit.

Except when your full combo deals 15k you no longer have skills to finish off your target with. But when you deal 30k then they can avoid half of it and still lose tons of health. Sounds reasonable. Quickness is a thing, so is stealth and knockback. But as I said, it's not about avoiding damage, it's about being onesot even when you avoid most of it because the burst is too high. Also who says that other classes dont need to channel their stuff? Or cast 5 different damaging skills in order to achieve high damage? Someone even posted a video in other thread where they used a mount dodge and still got downed by rapid fire with 2-3 last shots saying "invuln" because of downed state. Have you tried doing that on ele or basically anyone else? You'd be lucky if the target gets dismounted to begin with, yet fully down it. It has half the range so it has to use it's mobility (aka main escape) to get a chance to get a chance to kill the ranger because it doesnt have as high damage output. Ranger can also dodge its burst or use stone signet to soak full burst or leap out of ele's range. How's that a counter? Not to mention that ranger's burst has half cooldown of ele's burst. Again, I'm not saying I'm struggling with avoiding rapid fire or having hard time killing rangers, but saying that glass ele is counter to glass ranger and that they belong in same basket when it comes to balance is very delusional. Like I said, It may take a week or two for those too focused on one thing to see what else got elevated to catch on. Theres nothing delusional regarding understanding how good weaver is currently. If SB was one shotting you, it wasnt with LB. It was with maul, and that negates the "safe distance" argument. If your "full combo" on an ele is doing only 15K, that negates the "glass" argument. SB also has to be glass to deal that damage, so that negates the "tons of health" argument. When these meme SB try to gank in this fashion and I successfully evade, they either blow an escape rotation or they get downed. Balanced SB are actually tougher to deal with because they can hang in the fight longer, albeit still not as long as weaver can. Doesnt matter anymore though, as most have graduated to meme rev. Take one toy away but defend the others and you get to see how hilarious the others are too I guess.

Ranger buffs? wait what?It lost it's unblockable......(im not main ranger though)Although after a few fights today, i wonder why Rev "Phase Traversal" has 5secs of unblockable. Rev unblockables only last for a couple hits and then done. Welcome to balance soulbeasts... Sure, when we cut that Coalescence of Ruin crit damage in half it will balance out nicely. Rock out here acting like Paper is OP but Scissors are fine. Yeah someday when they make cor a skill that can hit a moving target, navigate terrain and not miss simply because of the gaps in its cascade... I played lb ranger for a couple years. I know how easy it is to play without unblockable buffs let alone with them for an unlimited number of attacks for 3 seconds lol. Hitting with hammer 3 and 5 on a rev isnt difficult either, and just as mindless as hitting SickEm then using LB2 Im fine with having zero unblockable in the entire game. People on these boards while all too willing to ignore one broken thing, or even worse defending it while demanding nerfs to another broken thing, are simply Rock QQing that Paper is OP but claiming Scissors is fine. Never called ranger unblockable buffs op. That was all in your head. And sure it's not hard to land 3 and 5 when you are dumping aoe on a zerg. But if anyone else eats those it's because they are potatoes. We arnt talking a glowy charge up animation, it's a huge kitten hammer over your head or the revenant leaping off the ground. Even with the added red ring people still eat hammer 5, it's sad really. Mincing words at this point. You did say you didnt need it, which is the same thing Im saying. This megacrit rev hammer build is another meme build just like the LB2 soulbeast build was, but its actually preferred in zergs, and people defending that while demanding ranger nerfs are logically contradicting themselves. Justifying it by saying its easy to dodge or avoid is laughable, since its also easy to hit the dodge key twice when ranger LB2 is channeling, yet the forums light up like christmas to get that nerfed. Keep in mind Im not QQing over the nerf, I just want equally unbalanced things also nerfed. Instead it gets proxy buffed and they remove the evade from druid staff 3 and call it a "balance patch." Help me understand.... Rev hammer isn’t 2 unblocables for the last 5 seconds, with malicious reprisal???Wich has a icd of 20sec. Even if has no limit of atacks wich should have, every unblockable should have a limit for its time, hammer fire ratio is much slower than ranger stuff and way more telegraphed. Something that hits for 20K crit one time only needs one charge of unblockable. The reason people QQ about LB2 is because they get hit with the full channel, all unblockable, and apparently going to the forum and demanding nerfs is easier than hitting a dodge key after realizing that they were being LB2 channeled. My actual position is if they are going to nerf one meme build they all need to be nerfed. Im also not sure how many times I have to say they could eliminate unblockable from the entire game and Id be fine with it, before people stop including it in their justification You guys will learn this lesson soon enough, as all of these "presumably unskilled" folks who were channeling people who couldnt hit a dodge key down on LB2 retreat to the next meme build and you find yourselves getting one shot hammered, or one shot mauled from stealth, or single bursted guardian trapped etc.... TL;DR: People declaring victory on this as if any one nerf stops it from happening are hilarious. I've never been hit by 20k from anything on rev's hammer and I play glass ele most of the time. CoR also requires open field and can be countered by side stepping or standing on slightly elevated terrain. Rapid fire can hit you with no problem while ranger is sitting inside objective or on top of the cliff or whichever safe spot you find. Still trying to justify one meme build while demanding another be nerfed is Rock claiming Paper is OP but Scissors are fine. That argument is pretty bad considering that both of them melt ele with a single skill or 2 autos. There's no scissors when you play glass ele, but every pebble breaks your glass. The argument isnt whats bad there, as thats my entire point. (your ele is scissors and you claim it doesnt need a nerf and is not OP) People playing other glass meme builds want their hard counters nerfed. They cleverly (or so they think) couch this request in terms of the build they want nerfed being a no skill build while their meme build deserves to be left alone because it cant be played by those with potatoes for hands, even though it is just as cheese. If you are playing the lowest HP total, with the lowest armor total, adding no health or armor, then yes, you will be easily downed from time to time. I bet the complaining stops when the player playing said build is the one doing the one shotting, and starts back up after they are the one being one shot. TL;DR: People playing high risk high reward builds want the risk lowered. This should be done by hitting a dodge key twice rather than by 60WPMing out post after post about how their hard counters need to be nerfed. Even with that being said, Im still fine with the nerfs, if all meme builds get nerfed, rather than just the hard counters to the forum warriors builds. on and on he goes,where he ends,nobody knows.Cant hit a dodge key twice, but can 90WPM-out a "nerf the thing that counters me" post. Silver level in game PVPer. Diamond level forum warrior.

I never said that I had problems with avoiding LB2 though. Just because one build has 2 extra evades, doesnt mean that other build should do 30k+ damage with one combo. Even if I dodge his combo, why am I not able to hit him back for 30k, but only 15k? If what you're saying was true I'd be complaining about every single build because they can all one shot me whenever I'm not paying attention to them, even if it's some irrelevant build like gs reaper or condi rev. I'm just saying that no build should have extremely high burst that goes through minstrel stats and protection. Sure you can evade it, but attacker can also wait for you to waste your defenses on something else and at that point only a few, broken builds can get you down. Ask yourself why everyone is complaining about soulbeast or gs mesmer, but not about glass eles. I'll tell you why, it's because damage, range and escape options are half of what those two have and do (or could do before this patch) and that has nothing to do with one countering another, it's just facts. If dueling builds are supposed to counter one-shot cheese builds then make all cheese builds equally broken. That was not the case before this patch and it's still not the case. When someone is that glass you can hit them for 15K and they will either blow a full on escape kit or die to the next hit. SB isnt hitting you for 30K in one shot with LB2 - they need to channel it, and as they do you can begin the evade even after you took a few shots. I notice no one is complaining about the real one shot SB, which is the maul-from-stealth build. People seem to be fixated on the range rather than the damage. I disagree with your final statement. Weaver is a pretty solid counter especially after this patch. Might take the meme gang a week or two to get caught up to understanding this, but it wont surprise me if people are complaining about it in short order. These meme build players dont all graduate to a nice bruiser build when their current toy gets nerfed. They jump on the new meme build - something this patch lifted up.