Potential solution to the frustrating CC meta

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

18 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

Even if dodges aren't down, that is not even the gunflame, the thing that drops 90-100% of a healthbar off an enemy, the volley is just a ridiculously powerful bonus allowing you to either change target and erase their health aswell for your allies to finish up or delete the target if they get downed as another gunflame would inevitably become available, yes any build has some counter but you cannot reasonably defend being able to literally 1shot with gunflame and then also have a followup volley that is even more powerful than that at the end of the day, anything than can instantly kill someone is overpowered regardless of what is or isn't needed to achieve it.

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I would refer you to our previous argument on this and reiterate that if rifle warrior was viable in any capacity beyond memes, there would be some reflection of it in recent tournament history/ranked presence.  

I don't know what rationale you're using to come to the conclusion that people can't dodge twice or LoS, but I think the fact that nobody runs rifle warrior in tournament says all I need to. You seem convinced that rifle warrior is good, and you are allowed to hold that opinion, but large numbers does not a good build make. 

Even if I were to steelman for you and say "rifle warrior deserves nerfing because if someone sits there and gets hit by gunflame then volley, they invariably die" I don't even think warrior mains would care. Nobody runs it and both rifle reworks made the weapon worse for pvp.  It's just a really weird take. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stalima.5490]

35 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

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I would refer you to our previous argument on this and reiterate that if rifle warrior was viable in any capacity beyond memes, there would be some reflection of it in recent tournament history/ranked presence.  

I don't know what rationale you're using to come to the conclusion that people can't dodge twice or LoS, but I think the fact that nobody runs rifle warrior in tournament says all I need to. You seem convinced that rifle warrior is good, and you are allowed to hold that opinion, but large numbers does not a good build make. 

Even if I were to steelman for you and say "rifle warrior deserves nerfing because if someone sits there and gets hit by gunflame then volley, they invariably die" I don't even think warrior mains would care. Nobody runs it and both rifle reworks made the weapon worse for pvp.  It's just a really weird take. 

 

It's not just the rifle... the axe is even more powerful at instantly killing people and that doesn't even have a cooldown if it hits, and I don't doubt half the other berserker bursts also have such potential. With people spamming out stuns this becomes a lot easier to achieve.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

It's not just the rifle... the axe is even more powerful at instantly killing people and that doesn't even have a cooldown if it hits, and I don't doubt half the other berserker bursts also have such potential. With people spamming out stuns this becomes a lot easier to achieve.

Then why is nobody running berserker at tournament level? The environment of cc spam should be making it easy for them to succeed.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stalima.5490]

2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Then why is nobody running berserker?

Likely because it is more reliant on allies than the other elites and nobody wants to be reliant on allies in a team game.

 

Protect the berserker and it can decimate an entire team, don't protect it and just pray that enemies don't all dive on top of it.

 

For example, one easy team combo is for a dragon hunter to drop his traps on top of an allied berserker, he knows the enemies will target that berserker which means they will instantly die to DH traps and berserker damage far away from their team if they try to approach.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

9 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Protect the berserker and it can decimate an entire team, don't protect it and just pray that enemies don't all dive on top of it.

Allies need to protect the berserker and set it up for dealing its damage for it to be viable?

And this is op? 

[Stalima.5490]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Allies need to protect the berserker and set it up for dealing its damage for it to be viable?

And this is op? 

by that logic said allies need the berserker to do damage for them... as I said, it is irrelevant what is needed when one shots are possible, the very concept of one shotting itself is overpowered on it's own, nothing is stopping that berserker from just pulling out an axe and deleting the first person who approaches anyway but by the time the enemies have even realized the berserker is there someone is usually already in down state, the problem however is that with there being a lot of bots, they often don't care that someone was just downed immediately and continue mindlessly attacking their aggro target as opposed to all diving on the down state enemy and anyone trying to revive.

 

Just look at the state world of warcraft got into when they started increasing damage relative to player health bars to the point that even the best pvpers were going down in less than a second, that game is literally dying because of it.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Stalima.5490

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 the problem however is that with there being a lot of bots, they often don't care that someone was just downed immediately and continue mindlessly attacking their aggro target as opposed to all diving on the down state enemy and anyone trying to revive.

Berserker is viable because there are a lot of bots in the game?

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the very concept of one shotting itself is overpowered on it's own, nothing is stopping that berserker from just pulling out an axe and deleting the first person who approaches anyway 

except dodging, blocking (if the berserker doesnt have the signet of might icon), blinding and interrupts whenever the berserker decides to turn red.

 

[Stalima.5490]

10 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

except dodging, blocking (if the berserker doesnt have the signet of might icon), blinding and interrupts whenever the berserker decides to turn red.

because at 1000+ range you always know who the berserker is targeting, when he is going to strike and his allies are all afk and not eating through any defenses nor applying any stuns for you to dodge.

 

To iterate, the berserker has enough damage output to kill your entire team if they aren't very specifically singled out despite being nowhere near the node.

 

You've gotta stop thinking in 1v1 terms.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

13 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

To iterate, the berserker has enough damage output to kill your entire team if they aren't very specifically singled out despite being nowhere near the node.

Berserker is viable if someone doesn't call target? 

All of your combat scenarios that are claiming berserker is useful are easily disassembled by minor combat tactics that happen in regular games anyway.

Which is why nobody plays it in ranked/tournament. 

Dragonhunters and Deadeyes at the moment have kits that lend themselves much better to this playstyle, and even they struggle in the current meta due to minor harassment from players even minimally aware of their existence in group settings. 

I'm tired Stalima. I'm not arguing this anymore, its silly. Nobody plays rifle or axe berserker. Your claims of them being viable rely on players not being aware of a glowing red warrior plainly visible with a clear line of sight to them, or on them being bots that don't help someone who failed to dodge decap. 

If they were good people would play them. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stalima.5490]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Berserker is viable if someone doesn't call target? 

All of your combat scenarios that are claiming berserker is useful are easily disassembled by minor combat tactics that happen in regular games anyway.

Which is why nobody plays it in ranked/tournament. 

I'm tired Stalima. I'm not arguing this anymore, its silly. 

 

and your logic is that the berserker has no team and that the only relevant thing on a map is the berserker thus confirming that the berserker is in fact OP by proxy as your only focus would be on this one thing on the entire map leaving you suceptible to literally everything else.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, Stalima.5490 said:

 

and your logic is that the berserker has no team and that the only relevant thing on a map is the berserker thus confirming that the berserker is in fact OP by proxy as your only focus would be on this one thing on the entire map leaving you suceptible to literally everything else.

Good discussion, thanks. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

28 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

and your logic is that the berserker has no team and that the only relevant thing on a map is the berserker thus confirming that the berserker is in fact OP by proxy as your only focus would be on this one thing on the entire map leaving you suceptible to literally everything else.

match is usually decided by a weak link, if one team has a berserker, the game will revolve around berserker.
Not because its OP or anything, but because one team ( the one with berserker ) will try to turn this dogshit useless piece of kitten into something usefull by protecting it, and enemy team will farm it and turn the game into 4v5 by smashing him into the dirt repeatedly.

[Stalima.5490]

28 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

match is usually decided by a weak link, if one team has a berserker, the game will revolve around berserker.
Not because its OP or anything, but because one team ( the one with berserker ) will try to turn this dogshit useless piece of kitten into something usefull by protecting it, and enemy team will farm it and turn the game into 4v5 by smashing him into the dirt repeatedly.

 

Actually, matches are usually determined by a team having something that the other team can't deal with, for example minion necromancers when your team are almost all single target focused or scourges when you don't have anyone built for solid damage, dragonhunters with no ranged or minions etc etc.

 

This is how you get steamroll games, because there is a particular enemy that simply can't be dealt with by what your team has available, the rifle berserker is no different in that if you aren't specifically designed for killing it then it can just farm your team without you being to do anything about it.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

and your logic is that the berserker has no team and that the only relevant thing on a map is the berserker thus confirming that the berserker is in fact OP

"Berserker has been in a great place with strong support, power, and condition builds that are successful in all content."

 

Someone took this quote way too seriously. 

 

On the bright side, at least you won't have to deal with too many of those ludicrously OP Berserkers. Berserker is so OP that barely anyone actually plays it, out of what I assume to be sheer respect and fear of such amazing power.

[Leonidrex.5649]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

Actually, matches are usually determined by a team having something that the other team can't deal with, for example minion necromancers when your team are almost all single target focused or scourges when you don't have anyone built for solid damage, dragonhunters with no ranged or minions etc etc.

 

This is how you get steamroll games, because there is a particular enemy that simply can't be dealt with by what your team has available, the rifle berserker is no different in that if you aren't specifically designed for killing it then it can just farm your team without you being to do anything about it.

I call bull. Every team can deal with bunker, issue is that it just takes too long to be worth it. Meanwhile power herald teleports to berserker through a wall, chunks him for 60% before the model registers, and finishes him after 3s and game is over

[Saiyan.1704]

4 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

 

Actually, matches are usually determined by a team having something that the other team can't deal with, for example minion necromancers when your team are almost all single target focused or scourges when you don't have anyone built for solid damage, dragonhunters with no ranged or minions etc etc.

 

This is how you get steamroll games, because there is a particular enemy that simply can't be dealt with by what your team has available, the rifle berserker is no different in that if you aren't specifically designed for killing it then it can just farm your team without you being to do anything about it.

This is maybe accurate in games lower than Gold II. Another crazy example is Condi Guard winning 1v3's lol. This just doesn't happen when you come across players who are running the right builds with mechanical awareness.

Rifle War and other niche builds doesn't fly in higher ratings even IF you're able to pull that single hit unblockable Rifle shot on unsuspecting players more than once. If you're not Plat2+ and showcasing your awesome 1vX skills in AT as Rifle Warrior then you're not going to change anyone's mind here. Most of us already know that build's effectiveness, or lack thereof.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Saiyan.1704

[Stalima.5490]

15 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I call bull. Every team can deal with bunker, issue is that it just takes too long to be worth it. Meanwhile power herald teleports to berserker through a wall, chunks him for 60% before the model registers, and finishes him after 3s and game is over

Then he finds out that berserker is actully full tank and looks like a clown since you wouldn't roll mega rifle into ultra mobile teams...

[Leonidrex.5649]

33 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Then he finds out that berserker is actully full tank and looks like a clown since you wouldn't roll mega rifle into ultra mobile teams...

?
It takes 0 sec to see what build you play, usually looking at weapons is enough in most cases.
tank berserker brings nothing to the team, and isnt even all that tanky, so its a win win scenario anyways.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

3 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Then he finds out that berserker is actully full tank and looks like a clown since you wouldn't roll mega rifle into ultra mobile teams...

The goalposts went:

>berserker rifle is op because of the damage it brings in a cc meta (there is no cc meta)

>berserker axe is op

>berserker axe is op because people facetank it then dont res each other because of the bot population

>actually, berserker axe and rifle are op if everyone on your team commits to protecting and setting up the berserker for kills

>actually berserker rifle is op because everyone is paying attention to it and being distracted causes you to lose point lmao

>berserker tank is viable because it won't instantly down to a port burst, even though a tank berserker is otherwise dead weight because it cant perform the role that allegedly makes it op above/ is a slightly worse deadeye, which is unviable to begin with

Just.. yknow, for posterity.  

 

But anyway there's no cc meta. dodge those 7 damage attacks or save one of your 45 second or less stunbreaks for it if you cant be bothered to dodge. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

The goalposts went:

>berserker rifle is op because of the damage it brings in a cc meta (there is no cc meta)

>berserker axe is op

>berserker axe is op because people facetank it then dont res each other because of the bot population

>actually, berserker axe and rifle are op if everyone on your team commits to protecting and setting up the berserker for kills

>actually berserker rifle is op because everyone is paying attention to it and being distracted causes you to lose point lmao

>berserker tank is viable because it won't instantly down to a port burst, even though a tank berserker is otherwise dead weight because it cant perform the role that allegedly makes it op above/ is a slightly worse deadeye, which is unviable to begin with

Just.. yknow, for posterity.  

 

But anyway there's no cc meta. dodge those 7 damage attacks or save one of your 45 second or less stunbreaks for it if you cant be bothered to dodge. 

You are just mad because of the time I proved that warrior does way too much damage when you claimed it did no damage.

 

Let's just agree to disagree, being to literally 1 shot is overpowered in my opinion but not in yours.

 

But on the topic of a cc meta, how about them hammer berserkers eh? they have what like 7 ways to stun an enemy, can even do it while being ultra tanky thanks to being unable to die during berserk mode, constant passive regeneration and a whole bunch of other nonsense.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

Let's just agree to disagree

It's quite obvious I disagree with you, but I am explaining why in case this comes up again despite warrior (And, to a greater extent, specifically zerker) being in dire need of buffs. This isn't as much for convincing you as much as it is drawing attention to -why- berserker is bad in pvp, and what can be done to fix it. 

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how about them hammer berserkers eh? 

The ones that use Rupturing Smash instead of Earthshaker and thus are objectively weaker than core warriors? 

The playerbase for hammer zerker doesn't exist. They need buffing. 80% of their bar does no damage.

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You are just mad because of the time I proved that warrior does way too much damage when you claimed it did no damage.

 

All you did was stack a bunch of damage mods then came here to claim that meant it was viable, despite it not being  in the meta at all. You haven't proved anything of the sort. 

Here's the strongest version of the post(s) where you claimed you did that, for reference.

I linked that thread above. Any class can do that, even scepter ele. That doesn't mean the damage is viable. My only mistake with that assertion was assuming you were playing a build that would work in an actual game, versus people capable of the basic damage avoidance demands the game makes. I didn't account for the possibility that you meant "if I ignore combat viability I can do 10-14k" and ever since we started accounting for the build needing to perform vs non-bot players, you haven't convinced anyone since. 

Whatever you say, the fact remains that zerker isn't played in the pvp sphere. The game's full of every class but warrior at the moment, and of the warriors that -do- show up they're almost all playing spellbreaker. If the build was as usable as you claimed, you'd see it at least occasionally. Warrior isnt exactly the hardest class mechanically to play, so if it was even marginally good, it would see use and you'd be able to point to some instance of the build being used to effect above gold ranking. Nobody thinks this is overpowered except for you, as far as I can tell. Possibly because everyone else fights people that can dodge. I understand your aversion to stuns, assuming your main is engie, but again, this take is really weird. 

Tl;Dr:

Zerker needs a bit of situational sustain added to it to make it useful in the pvp sphere. If you need to nerf Gun Flame to do that, go for it, nobody cares about rifle except for apparently Stalima. Reasonable price to pay. 

See also:

Shocked to find people still weirdly desperate to claim zerker is overpowered for this balance iteration, but not surprised. 

Edited September 19, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261