Scrapper new gyros theme trait

[Noah Salazar.5430]

As scrapper got support role i propose add trait that will improve gyros in that direction:

Trait that will be modificated : Expert examination (0.2.0)

New trait name : Modificated protocols

Trait will improve your utylity gyros

->Blast gyro : your gyro also grants 8s fury (6s in pvp/wvw) and pull targets to you insted of push

-> Purge gyro : your gyro also grants 6s of resolution (3s in pvp/wvw)

-> Shred gyro : your gyro applys x10 -> 5s vulernabilinity

-> Bulwark gyro : your gyro grants 8s protection (4s in pvp/wvw)

-> Stealth gyro : your gyro grants 8s vigor (6s in wvw/pvp)

-> Medic gyro : your gyro grants 12s regen ( 8s in wvw/pvp)

That way scrapper will no longer need use turrets for boons and will get acces to boons we lacking, as we not have that much freedoom on utylity slots ( we need use 2 gyro in order to upkeep quickness and 1 for elixir gun)

Also to get that trait you will need sacriface dps trait "object in montion" (togheter 15% dmg) or "damage dampener" so its kinda justificed as in order to gain more boons you lose tankness (healer role) or dmg (dps quick role)

 

Note :

Expert examination trait will be merged to system shocker (2.0.0)

 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Ghos.1326]

Scrapper is not a support role, it's a tank role with the option of running support-ish.

However I do think expert exam needs to be rethought. It's a great trait, but being easier to get off would be more ideal instead of relying on stunning/dazing foes. As a result, the uptime of weakness on it should come down by at least half.

As for bulwark, I really miss the pure damage mitigation of scrapper back in the day. The whole barrier thing, I'm not too fond of. I liked the damage reduction and the protection gains much more than this iteration of Scrapper.

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Scrapper is not a support role, it's a tank role with the option of running support-ish.

However I do think expert exam needs to be rethought. It's a great trait, but being easier to get off would be more ideal instead of relying on stunning/dazing foes. As a result, the uptime of weakness on it should come down by at least half.

As for bulwark, I really miss the pure damage mitigation of scrapper back in the day. The whole barrier thing, I'm not too fond of. I liked the damage reduction and the protection gains much more than this iteration of Scrapper.

Do you play WVW ?
Heal scrapper is meta there and so is DPS scrapper to an extent. You can't really run a "tank scrapper" with bulwark gyro because even in marauder gear it doesn't have the robustness unless you're in PVE.

That said , scrapper doesn't need buffs in WVW at all, the quickness uptime and superspeed from traited gyros should probably be cut in half.

[Ghos.1326]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Do you play WVW ?
Heal scrapper is meta there and so is DPS scrapper to an extent. You can't really run a "tank scrapper" with bulwark gyro because even in marauder gear it doesn't have the robustness unless you're in PVE.

That said , scrapper doesn't need buffs in WVW at all, the quickness uptime and superspeed from traited gyros should probably be cut in half.

I've played WvW, and let me re-iterate: Scrapper is designed to be a tank with the option of running support-ish setups. Just because it can run a specific setup doesn't mean it's naturally that spec's role.

I, for example, run a pure damage oriented build. Is Scrapper now a DPS role by default, or was the DPS role it's intended design?

For more proof of this, Anet themselves stated that Scrapper's intended design philosophy is for it to be a tank. 'Nuff said.

[Infusion.7149]

21 minutes ago, Ghos.1326 said:

I've played WvW, and let me re-iterate: Scrapper is designed to be a tank with the option of running support-ish setups. Just because it can run a specific setup doesn't mean it's naturally that spec's role.

I, for example, run a pure damage oriented build. Is Scrapper now a DPS role by default, or was the DPS role it's intended design?

For more proof of this, Anet themselves stated that Scrapper's intended design philosophy is for it to be a tank. 'Nuff said.

The description is as follows:
"They bring a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the engineer."

They are classified as a "support" in PVE because DPS scrapper with full damage traits is a 34K benchmark build while holosmith is ~37K with far higher burst. The "support" build is quickness sharing or heal scrapper. People don't run builds exclusively to tank generally , there is usually quickness/heals/etc involved. The sustain on scrapper is either from attacking for barrier (15% in PVE/WVW and 10% in PVP) or from running heal scrapper.

[Dawdler.8521]

I would only agree to this if the new trait is named Modificated Protocols.

[Ghos.1326]

21 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The description is as follows:
"They bring a bruising style of lockdown and negation melee to the engineer."

They are classified as a "support" in PVE because DPS scrapper with full damage traits is a 34K benchmark build while holosmith is ~37K with far higher burst. The "support" build is quickness sharing or heal scrapper. People don't run builds exclusively to tank generally , there is usually quickness/heals/etc involved. The sustain on scrapper is either from attacking for barrier (15% in PVE/WVW and 10% in PVP) or from running heal scrapper.

Here you go, 7/16/2019 update, including the Scrapper rework. Directly from Anet.

Engineer

Scrappers are seeing a comprehensive rework in this update, targeted at improving the Function Gyro to be more of a core mechanic and unifying some of the disparate themes present in the trait line. These changes aim to refocus the scrapper as a tank-like character that utilizes personal barrier applications to stay in a fight

[Infusion.7149]

6 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Here you go, 7/16/2019 update, including the Scrapper rework. Directly from Anet.

Engineer

Scrappers are seeing a comprehensive rework in this update, targeted at improving the Function Gyro to be more of a core mechanic and unifying some of the disparate themes present in the trait line. These changes aim to refocus the scrapper as a tank-like character that utilizes personal barrier applications to stay in a fight

That's the patchnote , not the specialization description.

[Ghos.1326]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

That's the patchnote , not the specialization description.

Yes, the patch note proving that the spec is supposed to be a tank, with the option of taking support traits for a more support role, but by default a tank.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

On 9/21/2021 at 12:12 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

I would only agree to this if the new trait is named Modificated Protocols.

Changed 😉

[Noah Salazar.5430]

3 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Yes, the patch note proving that the spec is supposed to be a tank, with the option of taking support traits for a more support role, but by default a tank.

Yep, by support i was mean quick scrapper heal ( or quick dps)

Boon part was buffed in previos patches by adding aoe quickness

Thats why i propose to trait that role even more (boons)

That way you will have whole line dedicated to support(like)

Gyroscoping acelerators -> Modificated protocols -> Kinetic acelerators

superspeed, boons, and last is aoe quickness (strongest boon)

Mostly scrapper lack aoe fury as taking turrets is problematic as we need take minimum 2 gyros for quickness and last utylity slot is elixir gun

 

Ppl bypass fury by taking runes of pack or alac mirage as duo

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Amadeus.5687]

23 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Here you go, 7/16/2019 update, including the Scrapper rework. Directly from Anet.

Engineer

Scrappers are seeing a comprehensive rework in this update, targeted at improving the Function Gyro to be more of a core mechanic and unifying some of the disparate themes present in the trait line. These changes aim to refocus the scrapper as a tank-like character that utilizes personal barrier applications to stay in a fight

Here you go, patchnotes from 17.08.2021, Anet wants Scrapper to have support options

Engineer

Scrapper

We're pleased with how scrapper's build options have expanded recently. Now that the dust has settled a bit, it's time for some more boons! With this update, we're adding extra concentration to the quickness scrapper builds to improve their flexibility and quickness uptime while retaining more damage, and we're providing a larger direct-damage enhancement to the dedicated power builds in the trait Applied Force.

 

[MrForz.1953]

There rarely is one direction when designing specs.

[Ghos.1326]

6 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Here you go, patchnotes from 17.08.2021, Anet wants Scrapper to have support options

Engineer

Scrapper

We're pleased with how scrapper's build options have expanded recently. Now that the dust has settled a bit, it's time for some more boons! With this update, we're adding extra concentration to the quickness scrapper builds to improve their flexibility and quickness uptime while retaining more damage, and we're providing a larger direct-damage enhancement to the dedicated power builds in the trait Applied Force.

 

Never said they didn't want Scrapper to have support options.

Here you go, what I said literally a few posts ago.

"Yes, the patch note proving that the spec is supposed to be a tank, with the option of taking support traits for a more support role, but by default a tank."

[Amadeus.5687]

On 9/20/2021 at 5:54 PM, Ghos.1326 said:

Scrapper is not a support role, it's a tank role with the option of running support-ish.

 

 

16 hours ago, Ghos.1326 said:

Never said they didn't want Scrapper to have support options.

Here you go, what I said literally a few posts ago.

"Yes, the patch note proving that the spec is supposed to be a tank, with the option of taking support traits for a more support role, but by default a tank."

My point is that Scrapper is a support role and not just a tank role.
With the direction that Anet have been balancing, it have very much become a support role. Can it still also be a tank role? sure.

When you get enough support options, you can start make a support build and when you have a valid support build for one of the 3 major game types, you can fill the role of a support.

Atm Scrapper got valid support builds and fill the support both in WvW and endgame PvE.
It can play a pure support build, which easy can function as both a support and tank. in raids/FOTM
It can also play a DPS Quickness  support build in raids/FOTM
In WvW It got a pure support build aswell.

Hence I find your perspective on Scrapper in this thread odd?

 

[Ghos.1326]

2 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

My point is that Scrapper is a support role and not just a tank role.
With the direction that Anet have been balancing, it have very much become a support role. Can it still also be a tank role? sure.

When you get enough support options, you can start make a support build and when you have a valid support build for one of the 3 major game types, you can fill the role of a support.

Atm Scrapper got valid support builds and fill the support both in WvW and endgame PvE.
It can play a pure support build, which easy can function as both a support and tank. in raids/FOTM
It can also play a DPS Quickness  support build in raids/FOTM
In WvW It got a pure support build aswell.

Hence I find your perspective on Scrapper in this thread odd?

 

You basically just confirmed exactly what I said to be true.

It's a tank role, with the option of running traits to be a support.

But alone, it's a tank role. Arenanet themselves said so, which I already covered that unless you want another copy and paste of their message.

Not once did I deny that they could opt in to be a support with trait choices, which you, again, confirmed this....

Then you even had the gall to be somewhat of a smart-ace and tried to talk down to me with the whole "here you go" mock LEL.

Also, not denying that they have some valid support builds, which I think is pretty cool in itself. We need more build diversity (though I think elite specs should not be as diverse as core since they're pushed into role focuses with elite specs being the whole "subclass" aspect of our current classes).

Not sure why you find my perspective odd as, again, Anet themselves has stated that they want to push Scrapper into a tank role IN GENERAL. Not sure how "you can opt to build as a support" confuses you as well....

[Amadeus.5687]

2 minutes ago, Ghos.1326 said:

You basically just confirmed exactly what I said to be true.

It's a tank role, with the option of running traits to be a support.

But alone, it's a tank role. Arenanet themselves said so, which I already covered that unless you want another copy and paste of their message.

Not once did I deny that they could opt in to be a support with trait choices, which you, again, confirmed this....

Then you even had the gall to be somewhat of a smart-ace and tried to talk down to me with the whole "here you go" mock LEL.

Also, not denying that they have some valid support builds, which I think is pretty cool in itself. We need more build diversity (though I think elite specs should not be as diverse as core since they're pushed into role focuses with elite specs being the whole "subclass" aspect of our current classes).

Not sure why you find my perspective odd as, again, Anet themselves has stated that they want to push Scrapper into a tank role IN GENERAL. Not sure how "you can opt to build as a support" confuses you as well....

Because you quite literally start your interaction in this thread with 

"Scrapper is not a support role, it's a tank role with the option of running support-is"

Which I assume is because OP started out with 

"As scrapper got support role I propose add trait that will improve gyros in that direction:"
 

It's a tank role if you run it with the tank traits, it's a DPS role if you run it with the DPS traits and it's a Support role if you run it with the support traits. An elite spec in of it self ain't a role, the builds you create is what makes it have a role?

What I find odd is your attitude in the thread and you base it around a old balance patch comment, where newer balance patches comments confirm they want it to have more then one role and have given it.

I find it odd cause you clearly wanna have the dialog about it being support, so why fixating on the "tank" part? In special when "Tank" in this game more then anything is just a matter about having more Toughness so you can aggro.
Might just because English is my second language, but I feel that you on one hand agree that It's support and the other hand you start out with an attitude around it being not?
Might also just be me having another understanding of what a "Role", then what you have.

[Infusion.7149]

Exactly. Every "tank" in this game heals other people or applies quickness in low intensity fights which means by definition is support. Nobody looks for tank soulbeasts (only HK) or tank reapers.

Role compression is paramount ; in PVP scrapper has 10% damage to barrier which is why holosmith is generally preferred. We don't see many bunkers anymore even in PVP it's usually support such as prot holo, support spellbreaker , core support guard, support (blood) scourge , aura tempest, etc.

As scrapper does 34K DPS with full DPS traits and skills, it's just as much a "DPS" as reaper or staff daredevil is albeit with lower burst.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Ghos.1326]

16 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Exactly. Every "tank" in this game heals other people or applies quickness in low intensity fights which means by definition is support. Nobody looks for tank soulbeasts (only HK) or tank reapers.

Role compression is paramount ; in PVP scrapper has 10% damage to barrier which is why holosmith is generally preferred. We don't see many bunkers anymore even in PVP it's usually support such as prot holo, support spellbreaker , core support guard, support (blood) scourge , aura tempest, etc.

As scrapper does 34K DPS with full DPS traits and skills, it's just as much a "DPS" as reaper or staff daredevil is albeit with lower burst.

Tanks in this game are high damage, high defense, little to no self sustain and little to no mobility (Scrapper is the oddball in the mobility department thanks to the superspeed passive). Recall the trait Rapid Regeneration? It was removed, as well as Impact Savant being changed to what it is now and moved to being the passive it is now to fit it more in their idea of what a tank is. A tank and a bunker are two different things in this game, bunker being a combination of defense and self sustain (healing, condition removal, etc). Supports are builds that focus primarily on granting boons to allies, healing, condition removal, team stunbreaks, so on so forth. As well, Anet themselves stated Scrapper is meant to be a tank.

This is not saying that as a Scrapper, you can't opt in to being damage (that's why traits like Applied Force, Object in Motion, and Mass Momentum exist), or you can't opt in to support (Kinetic Stabilizers, Gyroscopic Acceleration, Bulwark/Purge gyros, etc). just as an IN GENERAL direction of the spec, it's made to be a tank.

The healing and other things comes from other trait lines (Alchemy, Inventions (barely)), which could put it in a more or less bunker/support ish role if you so choose, same can be said for the damage aspects (HGH, Explosives, Firearms).

 

[Ghos.1326]

39 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Because you quite literally start your interaction in this thread with 

"Scrapper is not a support role, it's a tank role with the option of running support-is"

Which I assume is because OP started out with 

"As scrapper got support role I propose add trait that will improve gyros in that direction:"
 

It's a tank role if you run it with the tank traits, it's a DPS role if you run it with the DPS traits and it's a Support role if you run it with the support traits. An elite spec in of it self ain't a role, the builds you create is what makes it have a role?

What I find odd is your attitude in the thread and you base it around a old balance patch comment, where newer balance patches comments confirm they want it to have more then one role and have given it.

I find it odd cause you clearly wanna have the dialog about it being support, so why fixating on the "tank" part? In special when "Tank" in this game more then anything is just a matter about having more Toughness so you can aggro.
Might just because English is my second language, but I feel that you on one hand agree that It's support and the other hand you start out with an attitude around it being not?
Might also just be me having another understanding of what a "Role", then what you have.

Attitude, no.

From my understanding of the OPs original post, he's under the impression Scrapper's design was around it being a support. I'm simply stating this is not the case, but it can run support if it so chooses because that's the beauty of how these elite specs were made: it wants to focus primarily on a specific role but it still has the option of running another type of role if the player so chooses, due to trait selections.

Which would bring up the following for my side of things, in that this new elite spec, in my opinion, should be a support focused spec (primarily, not only).

[wasss.1208]

I like how the "scrapper is a tank vs support" crowd kidnapped this thread, and now everyone ignores the original post.

 

On 9/18/2021 at 4:49 AM, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

->Blast gyro : your gyro also pulse 2s fury and pull targets to you insted of push

This would help a lot both in fractals, and raids.

 

 

On 9/18/2021 at 4:49 AM, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

> Bulwark gyro : your gyro pulse 2s protection (+1s in pvp/wvw)

This is a big no-no in competitive modes. Pulsing protection makes Anti-Corrosion Plating pretty strong. With a generic scrapper build, you could have Reconstruction Field (Medic Gyro toolbelt) pulsing prot, and Bulwark Gyro pulse prot, this would make running Purge Gyro a suboptimal choice almost everywhere. I would make this a one-time deal, one longer protection at the start of the Gyro.

I'm indifferent about the rest of the changes. I'm usually against powercreep, but FB won't get nerfed anytime soon, and Scrapper could have an easier time getting into groups, with these changes.

[Infusion.7149]

40 minutes ago, wasss.1208 said:

I like how the "scrapper is a tank vs support" crowd kidnapped this thread, and now everyone ignores the original post.

 

This would help a lot both in fractals, and raids.

 

 

This is a big no-no in competitive modes. Pulsing protection makes Anti-Corrosion Plating pretty strong. With a generic scrapper build, you could have Reconstruction Field (Medic Gyro toolbelt) pulsing prot, and Bulwark Gyro pulse prot, this would make running Purge Gyro a suboptimal choice almost everywhere. I would make this a one-time deal, one longer protection at the start of the Gyro.

I'm indifferent about the rest of the changes. I'm usually against powercreep, but FB won't get nerfed anytime soon, and Scrapper could have an easier time getting into groups, with these changes.

I outdps firebrands regularly on KC and CA while on quickness scrapper and that's with 40% Boon Duration. I even outDPS a power DH on CA.

Scrapper is also good on Wing1 due to phases and VG has low toughness.

In fractals the issue is 100% to do with exposed and lack of might from your party if you aren't scourge stacking.

===

 

Unlike Ghos' wish for a support spec it's more likely the next spec is condi focused as scrapper / holo have power weapons. If it's a support spec without quickness/alac/profession boons such as spotter it won't be better than taking a tempest which is 10 man might/prot/fury or even herald with 10 man fury. Also since healbrand is the common tank besides minstrel chrono and sometimes alac ren / druid, the assumption that self sustain is low is incredibly shortsighted.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[wasss.1208]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I outdps firebrands regularly on KC and CA while on quickness scrapper and that's with 40% Boon Duration. I even outDPS a power DH on CA.

Scrapper is also good on Wing1 due to phases and VG has low toughness.

In fractals the issue is 100% to do with exposed and lack of might from your party if you aren't scourge stacking.

Same for me. Power Quickscrapper is amazing in raids already, because it only has two jobs: give quickness, and do dps. Everything else can be easily covered. My team for example uses a tempest, for 10 man fury and might.

On the other hand, the 5 man fractal team is more strict*, and you can't really run Qscrapper, unless you build your comp around it. If I wanted to play scrapper there, my team would lose a lot of things, that a healbrand currently brings. (Not only boons, but amazing CC, and projectile hate) This is probably what @Noah Salazar.5430 wants to change, with their proposions.

 

*My team runs with alacren, healbrand, 3 dps.

[SeTect.5918]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Unlike Ghos' wish for a support spec it's more likely the next spec is condi focused as scrapper / holo have power weapons. If it's a support spec without quickness/alac/profession boons such as spotter it won't be better than taking a tempest which is 10 man might/prot/fury or even herald with 10 man fury. Also since healbrand is the common tank besides minstrel chrono and sometimes alac ren / druid, the assumption that self sustain is low is incredibly shortsighted.

I really hope its condi. Holo and Scrapper are both power melee.
Weapon leak (i dont wanna spoiler) doesnt seem to be ranged focused and another power melee would just be terrible imo.

And the point with the tank-support thing u was talking about i agree with u.
Being support or tank does not depend on the spec (ofc others do better bc of traits and so on). Literally every condi class can jump into a tank role and that doesnt make the spec a tank spec. Its always dependent on equipment u choose and traits u choose.

A great example for this is harbinger. Its not a tank spec, not a support spec and not a condi or power spec. The traits and armor u choose for it makes the role. If you choose support traits u r support role and if u choose condi or power traits u r dps role. If you equip condi traits and trailblazer and tormenting rune u r tank role. Its that easy tbh. Specs can not easily be called a support spec or tank spec if it can hop in all roles.

[Infusion.7149]

16 minutes ago, wasss.1208 said:

Same for me. Power Quickscrapper is amazing in raids already, because it only has two jobs: give quickness, and do dps. Everything else can be easily covered. My team for example uses a tempest, for 10 man fury and might.

On the other hand, the 5 man fractal team is more strict*, and you can't really run Qscrapper, unless you build your comp around it. If I wanted to play scrapper there, my team would lose a lot of things, that a healbrand currently brings. (Not only boons, but amazing CC, and projectile hate) This is probably what @Noah Salazar.5430 wants to change, with their proposions.

 

*My team runs with alacren, healbrand, 3 dps.

If it's a fractal focused suggestion then adding fury onto blast gyro and making it a pull would probably help minimally for power comps. For condi comps I'm not sure the fury is quite as strong. If blast gyro is made a pull then the animation would need a rework and it would probably be renamed magnetic gyro or something (see thief steal skill). The rest of the gyros are situational: purge gyro you would probably not use on a DPS quickness scrapper generally ; bulwark gyro is only used on heal scrapper and very dangerous as well compared to aegis , shredder gyro doesn't really need vuln because of grenades with steel packed powder and hammer , stealth gyro is generally dropped for mortar or the supply drop and can interfere with auto chains.

For fractals it has to contend with healbrand/seraph firebrand and that's a tough sell in terms of support and damage (because of exposed as I stated above).