New Stat - Armor Pen

[Shenkopp.6317]

The more boons they throw into classes makes balancing pvp ridiculously hard. Cele/tanks can have perma boon uptime, cant really be killed, and can still deal good damage to squishy people. Classes like mesmer and thief have so many class specific nerfs that they aren't useful at all in WvW. You can't run full zerk or even marauders anymore because you have to dedicate 3 stats to deal damage while condi and tank get so many benefits from just a few stats, they can be so flexible. 

I think  a really good solution is another stat armor pen. It can be added to zerk combos to help them deal with tanks. Toughness, vitality, protection, blinds, weakness, aegis, barrier, are all spammed with ease now and it makes tank classes the best by a lot. The new specs seem to spam boons more and we haven't seen any strip specs yet. If they implicate an armor piercing mechanic, these tanks can be dealt with and full glass builds/playstyle can become viable like it once was. Tank classes currently have no counterplay and are too forgiving, the only way to fight them is to go tank yourself and at that point noone will die. It takes a hour of roaming in WvW or 2 pvp games to see this in action. 

[mungozen.2379]

Ummm, you don't want to spend stat points on toughness or vitality, but you do want to spend stat points on a new stat to overcome them?

I like Armor or Spell penetration mechanics in other games, but those were baked in usually from the launch.  Adding a new stat to overcome one specific issue doesn't fix the issue, it only adds another variable to be managed by the devs.  And ultimately, they may be happy with the current meta being tankier for the time being.  The meta will shift again when EoD launches if not before then

[Shenkopp.6317]

I've thought a lot about how else to fix it. Each spec revealed seems to not change the meta at all. 
Because power is vastly weaker right now it only makes sense to do something about it. If you think about nerfing everything else it makes less sense, and seems like a much more complicated thing. Nerfing boons, nerfing condi, nerfing class specifics. Whatever it is balance is always a lesser of two evils. In this case, im suggesting adding a stat to berserker or a mechanic or whatever it may be, some way to deal with these tank/condi classes. They have added concentration and expertise but nothing to help power builds. They still have stat combos fully focused on damage. I remember someone mentioning bruiser stat lines such as toughness and vitality and adding more stat combos with power but they would never work. It's just prolonging death like cavs does because you dont have the sustain and boon time that cele has. Also, your "spending points" doesn't work in this situation because like diviners' or even cele, each stat is not worth the same in terms of value but they are worth the same points. If you take 20 power away for 20 AP, it could correlate to as much as 300 power on targets with toughness. Another variable doesn't matter because something needs to be done about power, its 1 variable always, "how to balance power". But I totally agree, if anet wants the meta to be tank then thats just how it's gonna be, only it seems very weird considering tank/condi are objectively the least interesting and interactive ways to play the game.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Shenkopp.6317

[Obtena.7952]

While I do think there is some good value in temporarily being able to lower armor values for a well played burst, I don't see the point of making it a stat here. If you want more DPS against a 'tank', you take vulnerability. There isn't much value in adding it as a stat. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Shenkopp.6317]

thanks for the idea, though respectfully thats not how the game works. Vuln is balanced around being applied to anyone, not just tanks. You cannot just "take vuln" many classes don't have ways of applying it or are only availible on select bad utilities that waste a slot. Also what happens when they press 1 button and cleanse the condi you put on them? it's not like power classes have many condi to flood them with anyway. In practice vuln doesn't work ever, and doesn't even help enough anyway.  I agree maybe a stat isn't the best way, a debuff thats not a condi or something that increases burst to these tanks is a good idea

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Shenkopp.6317

[mungozen.2379]

45 minutes ago, Shenkopp.6317 said:

I've thought a lot about how else to fix it. Each spec revealed seems to not change the meta at all. 
Because power is vastly weaker right now it only makes sense to do something about it. If you think about nerfing everything else it makes less sense, and seems like a much more complicated thing. Nerfing boons, nerfing condi, nerfing class specifics. Whatever it is balance is always a lesser of two evils. In this case, im suggesting adding a stat to berserker or a mechanic or whatever it may be, some way to deal with these tank/condi classes. They have added concentration and expertise but nothing to help power builds. They still have stat combos fully focused on damage. I remember someone mentioning bruiser stat lines such as toughness and vitality and adding more stat combos with power but they would never work. It's just prolonging death like cavs does because you dont have the sustain and boon time that cele has. Also, your "spending points" doesn't work in this situation because like diviners' or even cele, each stat is not worth the same in terms of value but they are worth the same points. If you take 20 power away for 20 AP, it could correlate to as much as 300 power on targets with toughness. Another variable doesn't matter because something needs to be done about power, its 1 variable always, "how to balance power". But I totally agree, if anet wants the meta to be tank then thats just how it's gonna be, only it seems very weird considering tank/condi are objectively the least interesting and interactive ways to play the game.

I think it is too early to judge the impact of the new eSpecs on any meta.  Given how disconnected many traits and skills were on several of the profs in beta, how lackluster and 'simple' some traits were, I think we will see more polish and tweaks to reveal the true impact of the EoD eSpecs by the time they launch.

It seems you have a strong grasp of what makes up a good build in the modes you play.  Tank and condi builds can be interesting and interactive to some players, and if that isn't you, that is okay.  It might suck but, sometimes to be successful you have to take a build you don't like.  Alternately, you can take a build you do like but, appreciate it's shortcomings.

[Shenkopp.6317]

I doubt they will change the elite specs from where they are outside of numbers.
Respectfully I would rather talk about ideas about improvements to the game rather than be complacent. What's the point of conversing here if you'd rather just say "its fine" over and over. 

[kharmin.7683]

Respectfully, it may not be considered an improvement to the game by others who believe that the current set up is fine.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Shenkopp.6317 said:

thanks for the idea, though respectfully thats not how the game works. Vuln is balanced around being applied to anyone, not just tanks. You cannot just "take vuln" many classes don't have ways of applying it or are only availible on select bad utilities that waste a slot. Also what happens when they press 1 button and cleanse the condi you put on them? it's not like power classes have many condi to flood them with anyway. In practice vuln doesn't work ever, and doesn't even help enough anyway.  I agree maybe a stat isn't the best way, a debuff thats not a condi or something that increases burst to these tanks is a good idea

 

Actually, it's exactly how the game works. Whether you have access to it or not doesn't change the fact that Vuln does EXACTLY what you are asking this new stat to do. 

The question isn't if we should have armor changing mechanics (because that is VULN) ... it's who should have them, and why. The real question is why you think armor changing mechanics should be a function of what my target wears vs. a function of choices I have available to me on my class?

Edited September 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

yes Armor Penetration was funny in WoW when you got 100% with 100% crit and just oneshot everyting in PvP ... so no please no.

[Dawdler.8521]

There is already an armor penetration stat.

Its called condition damage.

[Sylvyn.4750]

2 hours ago, Shenkopp.6317 said:

 Classes like mesmer and thief have so many class specific nerfs that they aren't useful at all in WvW. 

Huh...better tell that to all the thieves and mesmers that roam and win fights against multiple enemies, pick apart enemy backlines, or perma-stealth in garrison to eventually port their friends in to take the keep...yep, totally useless...😏

[Tiviana.2650]

38 minutes ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

Huh...better tell that to all the thieves and mesmers that roam and win fights against multiple enemies, pick apart enemy backlines, or perma-stealth in garrison to eventually port their friends in to take the keep...yep, totally useless...😏

I see that a lot lol, if I could play those classes worth a darn against other players I def would. Sadly im not good enough to play them that way, in open world np, in any type of player vs player environment haha yeah no

Edited September 28, 2021 by Tiviana.2650