All effects that provide a percentage reduction to incoming damage have been standardized to stack multiplicatively.

[lodjur.1284]

A lot of traits definitively need rather large buffs or reworks after this, elementalist earth traitline being the first one to come to mind, having 3 separate dmg reductions being much much weaker than a single large one now. 36-37% more damage taken in earth (as tempest with food) is kind of a massive unwarranted nerf for a build that is hardly dominating anywhere.

In fact elementalist is the only class that relied on stacking multiple % damage reductions for their survivability.

The nerf itself was probably meant to prevent a return of 100% less damage taken herald similar memes, in theory damage reduction stacking multiplicatively is much healthier, but without any other balance changes the change is extremely bad. (some new elite spec could for example be gaining large sources of less % damage taken)

 

TL;DR: Buff skills that provide % damage reduction to compensate for this heavy handed and poorly thought out change

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

No, this was a smart change. There were a number of builds exploiting this behavior, namely revenants.

FWIW though things like frost aura, protection, and damage reduction consumables and in some cases utilities should all still be additive still.

[lodjur.1284]

31 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, this was a smart change. There were a number of builds exploiting this behavior, namely revenants.

FWIW though things like frost aura, protection, and damage reduction consumables and in some cases utilities should all still be additive still.

The patch note would imply that isn't the case, might test it later tho. But for now unless someone else has tested it can safely be assumed to be multiplicative. At least to me "All effects" would include frost aura, protection, consumables, utilities etc, if some of them do work additively, it is most likely an oversight. Frost aura for example even got a tooltip update that attempts to better reflect the new functionality (but really everyone I talked to who read it is very confused)

I even say that it was a good change, the problem is that it was missing other changes, just massively nerfing builds that are a perfect power level in competitive, due to 1 meme-y build that has been fixed without giving any kind of compensation is  ludicrous.

The Earth traitline on tempest is basically gutted, with all the minor traits being terrible now. The math working out to 36-37% more damage taken for any normal build using the traitline is a quite large oversight.

For example on tempest, the earth minor traits would still be weaker than before even if their numbers had been doubled.

Obviously multiplicative stacking is way healthier for any kind of reduction, but when previous numbers were tuned around an additive formula, changing it without changing all the affected traits is a very bad idea.

If hardy conduit got buffed up to roughly 45.5%, stony flesh to 14% and geomancer's training to 23.5%, then they would've ended up with the same damage reduction as pre-patch) and similar things for other classes (tho really tempest is by far the one that lost the most from it, Jalis hammers could definitively use an increase too though, as they went from providing a little bit more than 35% dmg reduction to only giving 20%, on a "normal" build, while supported)

 

Meanwhile most builds just end up taking about 5.6% more damage while supported and in most cases no change in damage taken while solo

(all this is obviously from a WvW perspective, the change has essentially 0 impact outside of WvW as stacking this in PvE is generally already meh)

Edited October 6, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

• All effects that provide a percentage reduction to incoming damage have been standardized to stack multiplicatively.

When I read the notes the first time my mind associated that with traits for some reason. Still as the recent Necromancer fiasco where they were getting 100% damage reduction to both condi and strike damage illustrated, any additive stacking is a mistake.

To be frank in the post Feb2020 meta this is a good change. Too many classes were abusing additive stacking sources to get unrealistic amounts of protection (not speaking about the boon there), some of which had long effective durations with no counterplay. This also trivialized some PvE content like Raids and FotM.

Perhaps damage won't feel so bad when I roam again after Halloween... I'll end up doing 20-30% more damage versus some specs.

[Esorono.1039]

Yep, as fun as it was to have my revenant have 100% strike resistance to cheese stuff, I agree it really needed this, games really should not be using flat resistances most of the time. But at the same time, multiplicative defense buffs are bleh right now as they are balanced around being additive not multiplicative. I've tested the change for pretty much every class, and I feel bad for thieves who want to do open world, without additive defense bonuses they implode on the tiniest mistake and there is no possible way to build them in order not to do that. Before you would use Deadeye Mark, which would also grant you protection giving you 43% damage resist right there plus 33% more from Flickering Shadow but that can be a bit finicky to actually do at times, then by eating food you'd get to 86%, which made them surprisingly bulky. Now though, they are wet paper towels. Revenant surprisingly also got hit a lot, not as bad though you can still face tank almost everything. There are three professions I feel now absolutely thrive in this environment.

Elementalists, Mesmers, and Necromancers. On top of really solid damage reduction, they also all have multiple pets that can pull aggro off of you, and damage reduction does not seem to affect toughness so they will also generally be the ones taking hits. Out of all of these, I don't think it will be a surprise to anyone that Scourges are practically on another realm of existence of bulky compared to the other professions now. Before it was kind of even, but a minion master scourge now has pretty much no competition. Right now active damage reductions like pets and reflects are much better than stacking damage reduction, which I think was the point of this update.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Esorono.1039 said:

... active damage reductions like pets...

You call pets "active damage reduction"? really? Best pets can do is perhaps body block the few projectiles that don't pierce. Meanwhile, there exist out there things like block, aegis, invuln, evade on skills, dodge, blur or even strike damage immunity. Not just the puny reflect that only affect projectiles.

Maybe, Scourge was someone that benefited from this mechanism and thus step down from 48% damage reduction to 43.4% damage reduction (prot + blood as sand). Or maybe it worked for reaper with "rise!"/protection/infusing terror for a damage reduction stepping down from 86% on top of the fixed halved damage in shroud to 65% damage reduction. Compare to a reaper that will only take 17.5% damage at max damage reduction (previously: 7%) the scourge will take 56% damage at max damage reduction (previously 52%).

Now, if you mean "sustain" instead of damage reduction, maybe you're right in your claim that Scourge will feel even sturdier then before (because the scourge is less reliant on damage reduction than something like the reaper yet feel sturdy). Keep in mind that Barrier is pre-emptive healing and hold no inherent damage reduction, you take the damage in full, you don't reduce them (and there is many professions that have higher healing potential than scourge does, they just can't heal pre-emptively).

[Esorono.1039]

30 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You call pets "active damage reduction"? really? Best pets can do is perhaps body block the few projectiles that don't pierce. Meanwhile, there exist out there things like block, aegis, invuln, evade on skills, dodge, blur or even strike damage immunity. Not just the puny reflect that only affect projectiles.

Maybe, Scourge was someone that benefited from this mechanism and thus step down from 48% damage reduction to 43.4% damage reduction (prot + blood as sand). Or maybe it worked for reaper with "rise!"/protection/infusing terror for a damage reduction stepping down from 86% on top of the fixed halved damage in shroud to 65% damage reduction. Compare to a reaper that will only take 17.5% damage at max damage reduction (previously: 7%) the scourge will take 56% damage at max damage reduction (previously 52%).

Now, if you mean "sustain" instead of damage reduction, maybe you're right in your claim that Scourge will feel even sturdier then before (because the scourge is less reliant on damage reduction than something like the reaper yet feel sturdy). Keep in mind that Barrier is pre-emptive healing and hold no inherent damage reduction, you take the damage in full, you don't reduce them (and there is many professions that have higher healing potential than scourge does, they just can't heal pre-emptively).

If you are using them properly, yes. If they aren't attacking you, you aren't taking damage. A good portion of your minions have a higher armor base than yours. Though yes, you can also use them for ranged projectile. I do call it active though, as you do have to manage them, know how to position, how to break targeting, these become a lot more important though when playing a mesmer. You can just toss them into battle and mostly be fine, but in harder content, you do need to make sure they don't die if your build relies on them, and make sure you have them attack the most damaging enemies. I won't lie and say it is not definitely Unga Bunga, but it does take some planning and awareness on occasions.

Though no, Scourge is less sturdy than it was before, additive bonus is much more powerful than multiplicative, good example is that 100% multiplicative damage reduction is about equal to 50% additive. This doesn't really stay the same, like 200% multiplicative damage doesn't equal to full damage immunity, but pretty much no class has access to more than 60% or so damage reduction. Which I have found so far are Necromancers, Herald, and Mesmers.

But there was next to no real noticeable difference in Scourge's ability to take damage, because it still has one of the higher damage resist, but it also has a lot of distracting bulky minions, as well a large access to both barrier and passive healing. It has to do the least of pretty much any profession to stay alive, as even if the mobs ignore your minions, you can still normally out heal/barrier their damage. Having about a 10k barrier as a buffer while you continuously siphon health is quite an effective tactic, especially with tormenting runes and a few siphon health traits. It's not really just one or two things that make the scourge into a tank, but it's entire kit when put together. But it's major weakness is that if Golem dies that hinders it a bit, As it is essentially the Jupiter of the build. But scourge does keep it alive rather well to the point that you can do most non-bounty+ enemies without it dying. It's other is that it doesn't really have defensive utilities, sure it has weakness, cripple, and immobilize, but it isn't quite the same as stuff like evasion or reflects.

Mesmer is slightly better in the pre-emptive defense side. The clones share toughness, which is important, even though their hp is so miniscule that it doesn't matter, so it is always a coin flip on what will be attacked, it's easy to break targeting so that it is almost always the clones being attacked. The exception to this are swarms like Pocket Raptors. They also now have a rather potent defense with illusionary defense which has a damage reduction of 95%. Mesmers don't have the crazy regeneration/barrier potential of Scourges. However they have things like blur, reflects, stealth, target canceling, and teleport on top of it. But if you just go in spamming clone skills you are going to die most likely. 

I'd say these are right now the two strongest flavors of defense at the moment, I will have to do more testing, a lot of my builds need to be re-arranged to find the optimal laziness again.

[lodjur.1284]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

• All effects that provide a percentage reduction to incoming damage have been standardized to stack multiplicatively.

When I read the notes the first time my mind associated that with traits for some reason. Still as the recent Necromancer fiasco where they were getting 100% damage reduction to both condi and strike damage illustrated, any additive stacking is a mistake.
 

For sure but changing stuff without any other changes is a much bigger mistake

Quote

 

To be frank in the post Feb2020 meta this is a good change. Too many classes were abusing additive stacking sources to get unrealistic amounts of protection (not speaking about the boon there), some of which had long effective durations with no counterplay. This also trivialized some PvE content like Raids and FotM.
 

That's just not true. 

 

Warrior has 1 source of damage reduction, spiked armor for 10% in defense which isn't very popular anymore.

So essentially unaffected

 

Ranger has Dolyak stance (and an unpopular 5% trait in wilderness survival),

outside of Dolyak stance essentially unaffected

 

Necro has the 3%/ shade one, so only scourge and not much. Reaper has a short duration 20% one inside of shroud

Essentially unaffected

 

Guardian had nothing (well 1 trait in dragonhunter that probably has close to 0% uptime)

 

Thief generally doesn't have protection due to not fitting in situations where it's applied but, they do have 33% less when revealed which very few people take and two different 10% ones from daredevil and 1 trait that gives 10% on deadeye.

So daredevils in a group with protection would've noticed it, if those builds didn't already run bound.

Essentially unaffected

 

Engineer only has iron blooded which is very uncommon. 

Essentially unaffected

 

Mesmer has one 10% trait in chaos that is also not commonly used. 

Essentially unaffected

 

Revenant potentially has

10% Corruption  which is generally unused

15% in salvation,  the entire traitline is rarely used and even then that trait isn't common

10% retribution,  this is is common but also only really functions in a group

1.5 - 15% in Herald,  probably averages out to 7% for those who take it, but it's less common

20% Hammers are quite common as Jalis is quite strong atm. 

 

While hammers aren't up I would say Rev is very close to unaffected as well. With hammers up (in a group providing protection) it's noticeable. Obviously trolling builds like salvation+retribution+herald would very much notice it but they're not really a problem. For solo it's yet anther nail in the coffin for jalis+kalla but that's been dead since may 11.

Quote

Perhaps damage won't feel so bad when I roam again after Halloween... I'll end up doing 20-30% more damage versus some specs.

Damage never felt bad on any power class. It is still overall quite high,  getting hit by single skills for 6k+ in full toughness gear is something that happens very regularly from multiple different classes (warrior and berserker included). 

 

For roaming this essentially changes nothing outside of the few people attempting any kind of build using earth on ele getting hit in the teeth. 

 

The enemies one face while roaming rarely have high protection uptime and multiple other % damage reduction. Earth ele and ranger during Dolyak stance being the only notable ones that both provide protection and have decent sized modifiers. 

[lodjur.1284]

24 minutes ago, Esorono.1039 said:

good example is that 100% multiplicative damage reduction is about equal to 50% additive. This doesn't really stay the same, like 200% multiplicative damage doesn't equal to full damage immunity

That's not how it works. 

It's only relevant with multiple sources of damage reduction. 

If a trait gave 100% damage reduction by itself it would be damage immunity in either system. 

If 2 traits each gave 50% in an additive system that would be damage immunity in a multiplicative one it would be 75% less damage taken. 

100% multiplicative damage reduction would need to be from a single source or one could never reach 100% only get infinitively close to 100% less damage taken. 

[Esorono.1039]

1 minute ago, lodjur.1284 said:

That's not how it works. 

It's only relevant with multiple sources of damage reduction. 

If a trait gave 100% damage reduction by itself it would be damage immunity in either system. 

If 2 traits each gave 50% in an additive system that would be damage immunity in a multiplicative one it would be 75% less damage taken. 

100% multiplicative damage reduction would need to be from a single source or one could never reach 100% only get infinitively close to 100% less damage taken. 

Yes, that is what I am saying. Also to add to that it doesn't matter how much multiplicative reduction you add, it will never make you fully immune, and the more you add the less effective it is. Though no, multiplicative reduction wouldn't work like that, otherwise the current Illusionary Defense would make almost all strike damage negligible, and it doesn't do that, especially on top of protection adding another 67% on top of the 95% you get from the trait.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

18 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

For sure but changing stuff without any other changes is a much bigger mistake

That's just not true. 

 

Warrior has 1 source of damage reduction, spiked armor for 10% in defense which isn't very popular anymore.

So essentially unaffected

 

Ranger has Dolyak stance (and an unpopular 5% trait in wilderness survival),

outside of Dolyak stance essentially unaffected

 

Necro has the 3%/ shade one, so only scourge and not much. Reaper has a short duration 20% one inside of shroud

Essentially unaffected

 

Guardian had nothing (well 1 trait in dragonhunter that probably has close to 0% uptime)

 

Thief generally doesn't have protection due to not fitting in situations where it's applied but, they do have 33% less when revealed which very few people take and two different 10% ones from daredevil and 1 trait that gives 10% on deadeye.

So daredevils in a group with protection would've noticed it, if those builds didn't already run bound.

Essentially unaffected

 

Engineer only has iron blooded which is very uncommon. 

Essentially unaffected

 

Mesmer has one 10% trait in chaos that is also not commonly used. 

Essentially unaffected

 

Revenant potentially has

10% Corruption  which is generally unused

15% in salvation,  the entire traitline is rarely used and even then that trait isn't common

10% retribution,  this is is common but also only really functions in a group

1.5 - 15% in Herald,  probably averages out to 7% for those who take it, but it's less common

20% Hammers are quite common as Jalis is quite strong atm. 

 

While hammers aren't up I would say Rev is very close to unaffected as well. With hammers up (in a group providing protection) it's noticeable. Obviously trolling builds like salvation+retribution+herald would very much notice it but they're not really a problem. For solo it's yet anther nail in the coffin for jalis+kalla but that's been dead since may 11.

Damage never felt bad on any power class. It is still overall quite high,  getting hit by single skills for 6k+ in full toughness gear is something that happens very regularly from multiple different classes (warrior and berserker included). 

 

For roaming this essentially changes nothing outside of the few people attempting any kind of build using earth on ele getting hit in the teeth. 

 

The enemies one face while roaming rarely have high protection uptime and multiple other % damage reduction. Earth ele and ranger during Dolyak stance being the only notable ones that both provide protection and have decent sized modifiers. 

Man you are missing so much information there... You even left out Shroud's and Rampages Damage reductions... It's pretty clear you have no grasp on the extent that some classes were able to stack damage reduction.

Since it is now defunct I don't mind sharing this link now: damage reduction.

Grant it there is 30% extra in those totals for being in PvE, but for WvW most classes had setups with +50% damage reduction.

[Emberheart.8426]

There are a lot of assumptions here. Some of the damage reduction effects were multiplicative already before the change. This just changes the inconsistent ones. Damage reduction being additive is a really bad baseline to balance from, as we have seen with revenant builds especially.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Ganathar.4956

[lodjur.1284]

36 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Man you are missing so much information there... You even left out Shroud's and Rampages Damage reductions... It's pretty clear you have no grasp on the extent that some classes were able to stack damage reduction.

Since it is now defunct I don't mind sharing this link now: damage reduction.

Grant it there is 30% extra in those totals for being in PvE, but for WvW most classes had setups with +50% damage reduction.

Shroud was already Multiplicative.

Rampage I did miss, but rampage in a group that gives protection isn't exactly a common occurrence, when bubble exists. 

Rev 100% was fixed already, months ago. So good thing you didn't share that before tho loool or people could've idk?

30 minutes ago, Ganathar.4956 said:

There are a lot of assumptions here. Some of the damage reduction effects were multiplicative already before the change. This just changes the inconsistent ones. Damage reduction being additive is a really bad baseline to balance from, as we have seen with revenant builds especially.

I tested the earth ones personally, overall most effects were additive.

The change would've been good if accompanied by appropriate balance changes. As a form of future proofing, but given that it wasn't currently an issue rushing it out in a non-balance patch with no other changes made it a terrible change.

[Dadnir.5038]

14 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Man you are missing so much information there... You even left out Shroud's and Rampages Damage reductions... It's pretty clear you have no grasp on the extent that some classes were able to stack damage reduction.

Since it is now defunct I don't mind sharing this link now: damage reduction.

Grant it there is 30% extra in those totals for being in PvE, but for WvW most classes had setups with +50% damage reduction.

More than shroud, for reaper he miss RS, "Rise!" and frost aura (RS2 leap in RS5). Possibly he even ignore the fact that core necromancer give access to protection. I mean, if the coeff were all additive previously that would have been:

50% + 33% + 33% + 20% + 10% = 146%

While now, standardized, it's :

(1 - (.5 x .66 x .66 x .8 x .9)) x 100 = 84.3%

If previously the reaper was taking 0 damage out of 1k damage, it now take 156 point of damage.

For earth magic tempest (protection, frost aura, stone flesh, geomancer training) his math were:

40% + 10% + 7% + 10% = 67%

and:

(1- (.61 x .9 x .93 x .9)) x 100 = 54%

So, out of 1k damage, with the assumption that all coeff were additive, the tempest was taking 330 point of damage and after the change he is taking 460 point of damage.

For all that's worth, following this flawed hypothesis, we can see that the difference in damage taken in this patch for a reaper is superior to that of the tempest (156 opposed to 130 extra damage).

And before they say: "elementalist have less armor/toughness than necromancer", Let's not forget that earth signet is 180 toughness, rock barrier (earth scepter#2) is 250 toughness and earth shield is 180 toughness. Potentially peaking at 610 extra toughness whereas the necromancer would get at most 300 point of toughness (competitive mode). Now, the reaper got the shroud that allow him to "absorb" the residual damage but the elementalist have blocks, evade skills, generally more dodges and even invuln while earth magic provide him with a trait that can allow him to not be immun to critical hits.

 

 

[Esorono.1039]

1 minute ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Shroud was already Multiplicative.

Rampage I did miss, but rampage in a group that gives protection isn't exactly a common occurrence, when bubble exists. 

Rev 100% was fixed already, months ago. So good thing you didn't share that before tho loool or people could've idk?

I tested the earth ones personally, overall most effects were additive.

The change would've been good if accompanied by appropriate balance changes. As a form of future proofing, but given that it wasn't currently an issue rushing it out in a non-balance patch with no other changes made it a terrible change.

Actually, up until this update, a Revenant could get up to 115% damage resist, strike damage would do nothing half the time. Amusingly, Vindicator using the second jump trait could have kept that damage resist almost permanently, where as Herald could do it only about 50% of the time. Both builds your damage would be bad though. 

[lodjur.1284]

 

20 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

More than shroud, for reaper he miss RS, "Rise!" and frost aura (RS2 leap in RS5). Possibly he even ignore the fact that core necromancer give access to protection. I mean, if the coeff were all additive previously that would have been:

50% + 33% + 33% + 20% + 10% = 146%

While now, standardized, it's :

(1 - (.5 x .66 x .66 x .8 x .9)) x 100 = 84.3%

If previously the reaper was taking 0 damage out of 1k damage, it now take 156 point of damage.

For earth magic tempest (protection, frost aura, stone flesh, geomancer training) his math were:

40% + 10% + 7% + 10% = 67%

and:

(1- (.61 x .9 x .93 x .9)) x 100 = 54%

So, out of 1k damage, with the assumption that all coeff were additive, the tempest was taking 330 point of damage and after the change he is taking 460 point of damage.

For all that's worth, following this flawed hypothesis, we can see that the difference in damage taken in this patch for a reaper is superior to that of the tempest (156 opposed to 130 extra damage).

And before they say: "elementalist have less armor/toughness than necromancer", Let's not forget that earth signet is 180 toughness, rock barrier (earth scepter#2) is 250 toughness and earth shield is 180 toughness. Potentially peaking at 610 extra toughness whereas the necromancer would get at most 300 point of toughness (competitive mode). Now, the reaper got the shroud that allow him to "absorb" the residual damage but the elementalist have blocks, evade skills, generally more dodges and even invuln while earth magic provide him with a trait that can allow him to not be immun to critical hits

Frost aura with like at most 10% uptime on reaper. Counting it even for tempest is a but disingenuous but for reaper it's laughable. 

Rise hasn't been relevant for years

Ele has same armor/ toughness as Necro barring death magic/ scepter/ signet/CES. Toughness isn't really relevant in this discussion either. Also tempest builds using earth generally don't run signet or scepter so... Some condi solo builds might have been using signet but condi as scepter had been nuked pretty hard (Power tempest wouldn't generally run earth)

 

Also this is for stuff that is somewhat used. Rise is not really used (also one of the very few sources I would assume was always multiplicative due to damage transference and not reduction)

 

But ye the very few people running corruptor's fervor and reaper did get nerfed, which seems a bit unnecessary. If anything more already uncommon builds getting nerfed just strengthens my argument. 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

More than shroud, for reaper he miss RS, "Rise!" and frost aura (RS2 leap in RS5). Possibly he even ignore the fact that core necromancer give access to protection. I mean, if the coeff were all additive previously that would have been:

50% + 33% + 33% + 20% + 10% = 146%

While now, standardized, it's :

(1 - (.5 x .66 x .66 x .8 x .9)) x 100 = 84.3%

If previously the reaper was taking 0 damage out of 1k damage, it now take 156 point of damage.

For earth magic tempest (protection, frost aura, stone flesh, geomancer training) his math were:

40% + 10% + 7% + 10% = 67%

and:

(1- (.61 x .9 x .93 x .9)) x 100 = 54%

So, out of 1k damage, with the assumption that all coeff were additive, the tempest was taking 330 point of damage and after the change he is taking 460 point of damage.

For all that's worth, following this flawed hypothesis, we can see that the difference in damage taken in this patch for a reaper is superior to that of the tempest (156 opposed to 130 extra damage).

And before they say: "elementalist have less armor/toughness than necromancer", Let's not forget that earth signet is 180 toughness, rock barrier (earth scepter#2) is 250 toughness and earth shield is 180 toughness. Potentially peaking at 610 extra toughness whereas the necromancer would get at most 300 point of toughness (competitive mode). Now, the reaper got the shroud that allow him to "absorb" the residual damage but the elementalist have blocks, evade skills, generally more dodges and even invuln while earth magic provide him with a trait that can allow him to not be immun to critical hits.

 

 

Thanks, I know that it is more than shroud. I pointing out how out of sync he was since he was missing such obvious damage reduction sources.

 

Prior to this update some sources were additive, some multiplicative. Shroud, with the exception of the stacking bug not to long ago, has always been multiplicative.

 

Soulbeast prior to this could perma maintain 48% damage reduction without dolyak stance, 81% with it. Now that caps at 62%.

[Obtena.7952]

The idea we should get 'compensated' for an improper implementation is pretty absurd. The whole point of the change is that it works properly, not that it maintains some level of damage reduction that players have grown used to. 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[BobbyT.7192]

14 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, this was a smart change. There were a number of builds exploiting this behavior, namely revenants.

FWIW though things like frost aura, protection, and damage reduction consumables and in some cases utilities should all still be additive still.

Nah, I think it should be one or the other, not have both at the same time. It makes it easier to understand and balance around.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, BobbyT.7192 said:

Nah, I think it should be one or the other, not have both at the same time. It makes it easier to understand and balance around.

Keep reading the thread.

[lodjur.1284]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The idea we should get 'compensated' for an improper implementation is pretty absurd. The whole point of the change is that it works properly, not that it maintains some level of damage reduction that players have grown used to. 

I mean the implementation wasn't inherently wrong,  just different, in a notably more powerful way. 

 

Should damage multipliers be changed to stack additively, which would be a lot healthier too, then many builds would need damage compensations, the only difference here really is what builds it affects. 

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Thanks, I know that it is more than shroud. I pointing out how out of sync he was since he was missing such obvious damage reduction sources.

You say after literally mentioning shroud as an additive reduction though, couple patches after it was specifically changed tho lol.

 

Also rampage is barely relevant due to it's use case having little overlap. 

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Prior to this update some sources were additive, some multiplicative. Shroud, with the exception of the stacking bug not to long ago, has always been multiplicative.

Then why

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Man you are missing so much information there... You even left out Shroud's and Rampages Damage reductions... 

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Soulbeast prior to this could perma maintain 48% damage reduction without dolyak stance, 81% with it. Now that caps at 62%.

Water is wet

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

I mean the implementation wasn't inherently wrong,  just different, in a notably more powerful way. 

Obviously Anet doesn't agree with you. 

Quote

Should damage multipliers be changed to stack additively, which would be a lot healthier too, then many builds would need damage compensations, the only difference here really is what builds it affects. 

I don't know ... you have to ask Anet. Game changes are not based on players having a debate and voting; they are based on how Anet thinks the game should work. 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jski.6180]

Its an ele nerf more then any other class. Anet hates the class so much they tried to nerf its small ability to stay alive and its small ability to support. If your class has any thing shared with ele then its just collateral damage sry.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

You say after literally mentioning shroud as an additive reduction though, couple patches after it was specifically changed tho lol.

And where in this thread have I said that?  Not once. What you are consistently missing is that the various sources of additive modifiers exacerbated the effects of the multiplicative ones since they resulted in higher amounts of damage reduction than should have been able to attain.

 

I called out Shroud and Rampage because they are multiplicative 50% damage reductions and was indicative of your oversight in not pointing out major sources of damage reduction.
 

[lodjur.1284]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Obviously Anet doesn't agree with you. 

I forgot that Anet can't overlook things and that one shouldn't express discontent over changes. 

 

Also a type of stacking isn't inherently wrong, it is just different, which one to use is obviously up to Anet but that it's been balanced around a different one is a fact. 

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't know ... you have to ask Anet. Game changes are not based on players having a debate and voting; they are based on how Anet thinks the game should work. 

A great way of looking at things. With that point of view, why even visit the forums?