Question regarding banner

[Axl.8924]

So i saw this video that talks mostly about engi briefly talks about banner warr. 

At this moment is it really that strong as a support?

 

 

He mentions fractals only so how would you describe its performance buff wise in fractals at the moment? does it keep up with the likes of mesmer revenant buff wise?

Edited October 8, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Banners taken are Strength and Discipline.

This is 100 power, 100 condition damage, 100 precision, and 100 ferocity. This only matter for two groups of people. Speed runners, and low damage pugs. Its the warrior using two of their utility slots to give the party a marginal damage boost. Naturally this scales by party member, and is dependent on said party members being able to leverage the stat increase

Banners are not OP like the youtuber seems to think. It really is not a super big DPS increase. It's marginal, but that margin matters in speed runs or when your pug has bear/bow quality players in it.

People just want all the buffs and have this perception that without the buffs they won't be able to do the content. I regularly clear T4s without banners on my Berserker. The groups that stink, would not have been helped by banners, and the ones that ran great would not have been made mush faster with the banners. The only things taking banners accomplishes is to suck the joy out of my own gameplay as I stop every 60s to waste my DPS uptime to pick them up and drop them back down. 

The Double Standards trait exists merely to stop the warrior from losing out on their own dps by maintaining the banners, which is now a net DPS loss to do since they nerfed the extra stats from +100% to +50%.

 

Truthfully they need to completely rework banners and get rid of the stats.

 

[anbujackson.9564]

Like Lan already explained, they are not as good as some might think. Full potential is in raids/strikes only.

 

They are taken because power classes need the precision for example to crit cap because everyone is lazy to change gear or to simply change their bufffood to get 100 precision instead of power (sadly as a warrior you profit from them the most). The value of discipline for condi dps is.. well not big except you do conditions on crit (which isnt so much in the first place, since there are ICD's tied to the traits for example or stuff like 33% chance when you crit, inflict condition xyz).

 

On the other hand why force people on warrior just to have banners? I saw plenty that deal hardly any good damage while also providing bad uptime. In this case you can just take another dps and be faster anyway. Thats what you see in fractals nowadays. 

 

All in all warriors are getting held back a lot by banners and ANET themself cant seem to fix that problem at all. Another pointless attempt was the 11th May balance patch and I'm pretty sure that no serious player wasnt confused by the changes after reading the introduction. A bs doing almost the same damage as a full dps is stupid yes but you literally play the same traits and the only thing that changes are two utilities (more rage skills for higher berserk uptime or more physical skills as spb). Where should any real difference come from? 

 

Its a shame that the new espec has no support options at all (and no im not counting another ammo charge of FGJ with your elite a better support).

 

If they delete banners or just the stat bonusses, warriors will die slowly (or rather fast) like fractals. The new banner functions would need to compete with druid, tempest or herald for general boons and with renegade, firebrand, scrapper or chrono for the juicy stuff. I think we can agree that this is less likely to happen than a rework of bladesworn.

Edited October 8, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[Axl.8924]

Should they just delete banners then and give shouts as replacement?

[anbujackson.9564]

4 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Should they just delete banners then and give shouts as replacement?

Even more shouts? You already got 5. It would go against their design philosophy no? 

[Axl.8924]

Just now, anbujackson.9564 said:

Even more shouts? You already got 5. It would go against their design philosophy no? 

I don't know the solution i am asking a question because i don't know. If banners are such a problem then can't they replace them with something else to fill in support role for warriors?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Axl.8924 said:

Should they just delete banners then and give shouts as replacement?

They need to functionally rework them into something entirely new.

The easiest thing would be to make them function more like 'Facets' where they pulse their effect around the warrior rather than being static buff totems. They can be given a flipover skill that does something special relative to the banner:

Strength: Grant 10 stacks of Might for 10s, 600 radius. 20s CD on flipover skill

Discipline: Grant Fury for 10s and Quickness for 5s, 600 radius, 20s CD.

Defense: Grant Resolution and Protection for 10s, 600 Radius 20s CD.

Tactics: Heal allies for 3000 hp and cleanse 3 conditions, 600 radius. 20s CD.

Battle Standard: Resurrect allies and finish foes in the target area, 600 radius 120s CD.

 

Using the flipover skill stops the pulsing effect and puts the banner on a 10s CD.
'Summoning' the banners would be a 1/4s cast time. Flipovers would all be 1/4s cast, except Tactics at 1s and Battle Standard at 2s.

[Axl.8924]

How come they haven't done anything like that yet? necros cried for ages and got fixed on many issues, and this seems like one of those old problems that has been a while. Did they just forget about the problem?

Edited October 8, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

They just forgot that Warrior exists is all.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

They need to functionally rework them into something entirely new.

The easiest thing would be to make them function more like 'Facets' where they pulse their effect around the warrior rather than being static buff totems. They can be given a flipover skill that does something special relative to the banner:

Strength: Grant 10 stacks of Might for 10s, 600 radius. 20s CD on flipover skill

Discipline: Grant Fury for 10s and Quickness for 5s, 600 radius, 20s CD.

Defense: Grant Resolution and Protection for 10s, 600 Radius 20s CD.

Tactics: Heal allies for 3000 hp and cleanse 3 conditions, 600 radius. 20s CD.

Battle Standard: Resurrect allies and finish foes in the target area, 600 radius 120s CD.

 

Using the flipover skill stops the pulsing effect and puts the banner on a 10s CD.
'Summoning' the banners would be a 1/4s cast time. Flipovers would all be 1/4s cast, except Tactics at 1s and Battle Standard at 2s.

Mwah. Epitome of Banner rework. Wonderful. 

 

Just need to bake in some AoE alac in Martial Cadence, do the necessary Marching Orders changes and boom all specs can become viable supports. 

 

Still really want to see AoE stab on BsW and some form of support in it's pretty evidently party-wide skills (BBarrier, EFence) preferably something like protection on use (assuming defense isn't reworked) or just some unique explosion synergy becoming AoE, be it healing or Boon share. 

[Infusion.7149]

Warrior is strong on power fights , in fact other than core guardian it is probably the only class that the core variant is semi-competitive (I don't count core condi engineer with a massive rotation). 100 ferocity is +6.7% crit damage even before the 100 power is factored in especially when you have 10 targets. It also has decent cleave because cyclone axe hits 5 targets and so does whirling axe.

On condition fights and post exposed update it isn't as attractive to run power BS in fractals. Power BS is consistent (due to thief rune but also how Decapitate works in terms of rotation and self-might) and condition BS is not as easy to play. You wouldn't run more than one on Soulless Horror for example unless people don't have condi renegade or firebrand/scourge/mirage ; movement is an issue on Twin Largos ; condi BS doesn't has as much CC as power BS for Matthias so running multiple is not that attractive.

Making banners into boon effects would put its relevance in danger especially in condition fights, even moreso when you don't have high swiftness uptime in power fights. You might have a better proposal if you had Banners apply Spotter (100 precision) /Pinpoint Distribution (100 condition damage) /Assassin's Presence (150 ferocity)/Strength in Numbers (100 toughness) as buffs instead of unique banner buffs. That way warriors would be similar to where chronos are right now, you can use them for role compression but they aren't outright overpowered or must-haves.
 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Axl.8924]

Besides spotter what else would you do then for banners to improve?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

What banners need most is to be mobile and, with the exception of Battle Standard, have their casts removed. What we've discussed previously as the least radical change to banners but would also make them useful in PvP and WvW is:

• Banners now mount to the players back, possible reskinning them for cleaner placement, i.e. flowing behind the warrior rather then stretched across a frame as they are now. Cast time is instant
• Battle standard gets summoned and mounted like the others to pulse its effects, but receives a flip over skill with the current cast time for the current ground targeted rez/finish that desummons the banner and puts it on CD.
• Move Banner of Tactics to the heal slot, have it pulsing regen when summoned along with the stats, gives a flip over to heal in the area (something like 6000 HP)
• Give the other banners flip over skills that are thematic and grant effects. Each flip over would desummon the banner and put them on a 20s CD (120s for Battle Standard). Flip overs have cast times (1s for the Tactics, 1/2s to 1/4s for Strength, Discipline, Defense and 2s for Battle Standard) 
  • Strength could give out might, but it could also be a PBAoE that deals damage and burning
  • Discipline could give out Fury, but could also be an attack that ignores Blind and puts vulnerablity on foes in the area
  • Defense could give out protection and or resolution. Personally I'd make it's flipover skill an AoE stunbreak that grants protection and resolution.

The can keep the new light field when summoned, but if the did the above then Banners would actually be fun and useful to play with rather than being stupid static stat sticks.

[Axl.8924]

I like it since it would make warrs both a support in offense as defense.
I really hope they do this as it would give me more fun things to tinker with and try out.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

14 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

I like it since it would make warrs both a support in offense as defense.
I really hope they do this as it would give me more fun things to tinker with and try out.

Thanks, it would certainly be better than what we currently have and I wouldn't hate on banners so much.

[DemonCrypto.6792]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

 

• Move Banner of Tactics to the heal slot, have it pulsing regen when summoned along with the stats, gives a flip over to heal in the area (something like 6000 HP)
• Give the other banners flip over skills that are thematic and grant effects. Each flip over would desummon the banner and put them on a 20s CD (120s for Battle Standard). Flip overs have cast times (1s for the Tactics, 1/2s to 1/4s for Strength, Discipline, Defense and 2s for Battle Standard) 

Meaby an explosion  finisher on flipping would be fun with that. and a mastery trait change to give more boon(kicking guard out of stab niche in wvw would be so sweet)
I want to live in the world where banners are a Real support viable build

Edited October 15, 2021 by DemonCrypto.6792

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, DemonCrypto.6792 said:

Meaby an explosion  finisher on flipping would be fun with that. and a mastery trait change to give more boon(kicking guard out of stab niche in wvw would be so sweet)
I want to live in the world where banners are a Real support viable build

You mean blast finisher right? I'd move Double Standards out of Discipline and into Tactics. Actually I'd swap it with Warrior's Cunning.

I'd then remove the stat bonus rider and change it so that the flip over skills cause condis on enemies in range and boons on allies in range:

Tactics: chill(4s), vigor(4s)

Strength: weakness (4s), 5 stacks of might (4s)

Discipline: An extra 5 stacks of Vuln (4s) ( I said Vulnerability above, think 5 stacks there and 5 more stacks here), quickness 4s

Defense: Blind (4s), 3 stacks of Stability 3s. (I said 20s CDs up above, but this would have to be like 30-35s in WvW/PvP)

Battle Standard I would change so that the flipover has a larger radius on the rez and finish areas and make them the same radius.