I simply cannot take it anymore

[Jski.6180]

19 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Quickness is on catalyst so your point is moot.

On the current classes and your talk is about the dps on weaver and tempest both witch have no quickness OR alacrity so your point is moot.

 

Lesson you are depending on the next new things to fix ele and we already know other classes are getting much higher dps in pve and have quickness at least as an support. You are holding the same mind set of anet always the new thing and never the old. This endless cycle of forgetting old content the moment there a hit at something new.

A number update to core ele tempest and weaver will not fix the ele class catalysts will not fix the ele class. Anet needs to rework (the ONLY way they update things in an significant way) the ele class or its more of this self delusion that every thing is fine with the lowest hp / lowest armor and lowest number of effects class in the game.

Anet has failed at the ele class look to eng as the example of what ele should be but as non "pretend" magic.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Jski.6180
weaid way of chatting with a perison updating there post on another pages

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Jski.6180 said:

On the current classes and your talk is about the dps on weaver and tempest both witch have no quickness OR alacrity so your point is moot.

Alacrity is meaningless on fresh air tempest against low health targets because your main damage is from air overload (~21%) which resets instantly on crit. You literally get close to no advantage from alacrity for the rest of the main quick recharging damage skills which are <6 cooldown (Dragon's Tooth is ~4.75s cooldown, Shatterstone is 3s cooldown, lightning strike is 4s cooldown so shaving 1 second of cooldown isn't making a huge difference). In any group scenario (1 mil + health target) where a long cooldown >30s matters your boons will be covered and scepter cooldowns are sufficiently low that cast time is the limiting factor. A long cooldown such as Lightning Storm counts as 2K DPS , without alacrity it would mean you have ~1.6K DPS coming from it (2K * 48/60s cooldown). If every single cooldown is without alacrity you would still push 30K+ due to overload air interaction with fresh air not being affected by alacrity as a skill with a cooldown, which is more than any power-based quickness provider currently.

There's only a handful of classes that actually have quickness or alacrity solo, that is StM chrono (27-28K depending on IA/DT), quick scrapper (28K), cQB (28K solo), alac ren (28-30K), staff mirage (31K before confusion).

Have you even benched tempest on small hitbox? Or do you spend immeasurable effort complaining about it? Whenever I play tempest in marauder gear and using old SC build (~95% of current build with fire attunement when you have 10+ might) not even the meta one I get more DPS than what people get on wingman for bosses where it is relevant.

You should really watch Veigar (who PUGs a lot and is not explicitly a speedclear player) or Fennec play tempest.

 

As far as weaver goes, weaver has ~ 20K DPS on air autoattacking with full boons in 2020. So it's only full rotation that needs help and people that accidentally get into water attunement for more than a few seconds.

[Jski.6180]

19 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Alacrity is meaningless on fresh air tempest against low health targets because your main damage is from air overload (~21%) which resets instantly on crit. You literally get close to no advantage from alacrity for the rest of the main quick recharging damage skills which are <6 cooldown (Dragon's Tooth is ~4.75s cooldown, Shatterstone is 3s cooldown, lightning strike is 4s cooldown so shaving 1 second of cooldown isn't making a huge difference). In any group scenario (1 mil + health target) where a long cooldown >30s matters your boons will be covered and scepter cooldowns are sufficiently low that cast time is the limiting factor. A long cooldown such as Lightning Storm counts as 2K DPS , without alacrity it would mean you have ~1.6K DPS coming from it (2K * 48/60s cooldown). If every single cooldown is without alacrity you would still push 30K+ due to overload air interaction with fresh air not being affected by alacrity as a skill with a cooldown, which is more than any power-based quickness provider currently.

There's only a handful of classes that actually have quickness or alacrity solo, that is StM chrono (27-28K depending on IA/DT), quick scrapper (28K), cQB (28K solo), alac ren (28-30K), staff mirage (31K before confusion).

Have you even benched tempest on small hitbox? Or do you spend immeasurable effort complaining about it? Whenever I play tempest in marauder gear and using old SC build (~95% of current build with fire attunement when you have 10+ might) not even the meta one I get more DPS than what people get on wingman for bosses where it is relevant.

You should really watch Veigar (who PUGs a lot and is not explicitly a speedclear player) or Fennec play tempest.

 

As far as weaver goes, weaver has ~ 20K DPS on air autoattacking with full boons in 2020. So it's only full rotation that needs help and people that accidentally get into water attunement for more than a few seconds.

More info overwhelming fun. I am not sure if i am even talking to you or the ppl your doing all of your linked.

Boons as an support effect mean more to you in a group because your supporting other ppl dps to use there skill more often or faster or even harder. If your not giving out such effects you are pulling space for some one who could.

Boons are too on and off switches in this game but beyond nerfing hard to get boons effect or buffing easy to get boons if you lack any of these boons you are worst off and your worst off for your group if you cant give any of these boons. This is the simple truth of gw2 right now and ele is one of the worst at giving out these boons as well as missing many effects.

Its not a good sine that going into one of the 4 atuments is an accident that will mess up your dps for a class because that means there is an real issues with that atument for game play. Its also not good sine that the size of the mob effects your class ability to do dmg to it because it feels more like a programing problem then a real balancing chose.

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

More info overwhelming fun. I am not sure if i am even talking to you or the ppl your doing all of your linked.

Boons as an support effect mean more to you in a group because your supporting other ppl dps to use there skill more often or faster or even harder. If your not giving out such effects you are pulling space for some one who could.

Boons are too on and off switches in this game but beyond nerfing hard to get boons effect or buffing easy to get boons if you lack any of these boons you are worst off and your worst off for your group if you cant give any of these boons. This is the simple truth of gw2 right now and ele is one of the worst at giving out these boons as well as missing many effects.

Its not a good sine that going into one of the 4 atuments is an accident that will mess up your dps for a class because that means there is an real issues with that atument for game play. Its also not good sine that the size of the mob effects your class ability to do dmg to it because it feels more like a programing problem then a real balancing chose.

If a DPS class does 40K and you already have a 30K DPS quickness or alac provider you aren't slotting another quickness or alac. That would be trolling your group unless you have zero confidence in someone running the quickness/alac build.

Minimum boon duration on quickbrand required is 25% , meta is 40%. Same goes for scrapper , you can run 40% BD instead of 25 or 30%. The only one that really suffers is chrono because while meta on snowcrows is 10% , even speedclear guilds run the LN variant with 50% BD.

[Jski.6180]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

If a DPS class does 40K and you already have a 30K DPS quickness or alac provider you aren't slotting another quickness or alac. That would be trolling your group unless you have zero confidence in someone running the quickness/alac build.

Minimum boon duration on quickbrand required is 25% , meta is 40%. Same goes for scrapper , you can run 40% BD instead of 25 or 30%. The only one that really suffers is chrono because while meta on snowcrows is 10% , even speedclear guilds run the LN variant with 50% BD.

The new classes DO that much dmg AND give quickness or alac. Its not enofe that ele getting catal the older classes need a massive rework and the time to ask for that is when anet is at its most active.

That another point beyond speed runs dps what the point of doing that much dmg in a fight. We are talking about doing enofe dmg but also providing other effects. Quickbrand and even Scrapper (on some level) fills this. Why would you need an ele if your not doing a speed run for a game type that most ppl dont even run a sub group of a very small sub group of the game of gw2. This is no way to balance a game type or a game over all or to say ele is "fine" as a class.

[Infusion.7149]

26 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

The new classes DO that much dmg AND give quickness or alac. Its not enofe that ele getting catal the older classes need a massive rework and the time to ask for that is when anet is at its most active.

That another point beyond speed runs dps what the point of doing that much dmg in a fight. We are talking about doing enofe dmg but also providing other effects. Quickbrand and even Scrapper (on some level) fills this. Why would you need an ele if your not doing a speed run for a game type that most ppl dont even run a sub group of a very small sub group of the game of gw2. This is no way to balance a game type or a game over all or to say ele is "fine" as a class.

It's funny you say that. Catalyst does 45K while putting out quickness as of last beta, even if they completely gut hammer 3 orb power damage it pushes 30K DPS while outputting quickness regardless of hitbox size. DPS reliability is the main problem of tempest as mentioned above , which is why scourge is dominant right now, not the 37K DPS benchmark. Weaver is the spec with the issue of relying on alacrity due to the dual attunements and weave self.

DPS allows you to phase faster, which means that you won't have to repeat mechanics. If you fail to understand how that works I want to see you do Gorseval no updraft with poor DPS. I've run 10 revenant and 10 engi (before scrapper quickness) and it is a lot worse. Same thing goes for other power fights such as Conjured Amalgamate , if you don't meet the DPs the squad positioning is different and you might need a Nature Spirit/Rebound from tempest. That's just two examples off the top of my head.

If you fail DPS check on 98CM fractal you just fail outright. No exceptions. If your group for example wants to run heal scrapper instead of firebrand then unless your alacrity source does decent DPS you will want to have enough DPS to cover a second Echoes of Unclean at Siax split.

People are running weaver and sometimes tempest in automated tournaments  for PVP and cleanse tempest while not meta is still viable in WVW along with staff weavers for more experienced elementalists. What are they going to balance for other than instanced PVE (they are adding strike CMs in EOD), WVW, PVP? Openworld? You tell me.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It's funny you say that. Catalyst does 45K while putting out quickness as of last beta, even if they completely gut hammer 3 orb power damage it pushes 30K DPS while outputting quickness regardless of hitbox size.

DPS allows you to phase faster, which means that you won't have to repeat mechanics. If you fail to understand how that works I want to see you do Gorseval no updraft with poor DPS. I've run 10 revenant and 10 engi (before scrapper quickness) and it is a lot worse. Same thing goes for other power fights such as Conjured Amalgamate , if you don't meet the DPs the squad positioning is different and you might need a Nature Spirit/Rebound from tempest. That's just two examples off the top of my head.

If you fail DPS check on 98CM fractal you just fail outright. No exceptions.

People are running weaver and sometimes tempest in automated tournaments  for PVP and cleanse tempest while not meta is still viable in WVW along with staff weavers for more experienced elementalists. What are they going to balance for other than instanced PVE (they are adding strike CMs in EOD), WVW, PVP? Openworld? You tell me.

Yet the other EoD classes do more dps and still give out these effect with out needing to be super melee ranged to land the dmg (being inside the mobs).

DPS like that is NOT a means of balancing though nor is it the means of defining a class. Its a risk reward for builds and over all skill of game play. It is not the avages of the game play over all.

Having the chose as a class is all that is important it would be silly to run 1 of the same class sure but that 1 class having the ability to push more dmg because some one else is coving the boon type is something all classes should be able to do at the same time being a class that you can give up dmg for a boon type should ALSO be a chose for all classes.

If you fail any benchmark in gw2 the game has failed to live up to playing as you wish.

Spvp is more about group comp and you do find ppl are running support strong boons at some level. Your weaver and tempest has no chose in if they are going to play one way but with giving out support boons of quickness and alacrity. Its the chose that is important not even the meta is as important.

[Infusion.7149]

22 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Yet the other EoD classes do more dps and still give out these effect with out needing to be super melee ranged to land the dmg (being inside the mobs).

DPS like that is NOT a means of balancing though nor is it the means of defining a class. Its a risk reward for builds and over all skill of game play. It is not the avages of the game play over all.

Having the chose as a class is all that is important it would be silly to run 1 of the same class sure but that 1 class having the ability to push more dmg because some one else is coving the boon type is something all classes should be able to do at the same time being a class that you can give up dmg for a boon type should ALSO be a chose for all classes.

If you fail any benchmark in gw2 the game has failed to live up to playing as you wish.

Spvp is more about group comp and you do find ppl are running support strong boons at some level. Your weaver and tempest has no chose in if they are going to play one way but with giving out support boons of quickness and alacrity. Its the chose that is important not even the meta is as important.

The only thing that relies on being inside hitbox is hammer orbs, which is why I said if power damage from hammer orbs are removed outright it still has 30K while providing quickness. The only other quickness output in EOD is harbinger which was 27K as of last patch , 33K in the first beta while only putting out quickness and no other boons (catalyst puts out might/prot/etc on Sphere specialist build , if you go full boon with Spectacular Sphere it would also provide fury, vigor, resistance).

PVE DPS is meaningful because it represents the upper limit of what kind of damage the class is able to output. Most skills are cut by 30-40% for PVP/WVW and that is extent of the balancing. Not to mention boons in PVP are not balanced around 100% uptime whatsoever, so any complaints about quickness/alacrity goes out the window.

In PVP people are running weaver as a duelist... what does that have to do with support? Cleanse tempest was run in at least one semi final AT , watch Engal on YT. People don't run quickness firebrand in PVP nor do they run alacrity renegade. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.

If a class does 25-30K on quickness build and 40K without running quickness utilities/trait's I'd say it's rather balanced as the non-quickness variant has an appreciable gain in damage. Alac ren used to be ~24K after all ; full DPS power renegade is 35K build on large hitboxes only; condi ren was 37K before torment changes and 40K after; and as of last beta power vindicator is ~37K. You have to keep in mind the classes that output alacrity currently don't gain significant benefits from alacrity: staff mirage is using dodges as a resource , alac ren is gated by energy moreso than cooldown. It will be similar for specter.

You still haven't answered my question when I answered every single one of yours. What should they be balancing for then? "Playing how you want" is not a legitimate answer. This is not a philsophy class where everyone has a right answer depending on viewpoint.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

19 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The only thing that relies on being inside hitbox is hammer orbs, which is why I said if power damage from hammer orbs are removed outright it still has 30K while providing quickness. The only other quickness output in EOD is harbinger which was 27K as of last patch , 33K in the first beta while only putting out quickness and no other boons (catalyst puts out might/prot/etc on Sphere specialist build , if you go full boon with Spectacular Sphere it would also provide fury, vigor, resistance).

PVE DPS is meaningful because it represents the upper limit of what kind of damage the class is able to output. Most skills are cut by 30-40% for PVP/WVW and that is extent of the balancing. Not to mention boons in PVP are not balanced around 100% uptime whatsoever, so any complaints about quickness/alacrity goes out the window.

In PVP people are running weaver as a duelist... what does that have to do with support? Cleanse tempest was run in at least one semi final AT , watch Engal on YT. People don't run quickness firebrand in PVP nor do they run alacrity renegade. To suggest otherwise is completely ridiculous.

If a class does 25-30K on quickness build and 40K without running quickness utilities/trait's I'd say it's rather balanced as the non-quickness variant has an appreciable gain in damage. Alac ren used to be ~24K after all ; full DPS power renegade is 35K build on large hitboxes only; condi ren was 37K before torment changes and 40K after; and as of last beta power vindicator is ~37K. You have to keep in mind the classes that output alacrity currently don't gain significant benefits from alacrity: staff mirage is using dodges as a resource , alac ren is gated by energy moreso than cooldown. It will be similar for specter.

You still haven't answered my question when I answered every single one of yours. What should they be balancing for then? "Playing how you want" is not a legitimate answer. This is not a philsophy class where everyone has a right answer depending on viewpoint.

What about core ele tempest and weaver then? Where do they sit when not being able to provide these boons? This is the issues at hands.

Speed run and raids are a very small part of pve even fractals are a small part of pve having a chose to out put a boons or not is very importan for all points of the game. A class with out this chose is worst off at all points of the game.

Spvp ppl run group comps you can make any class viable with these group comps. The thing is some classes bring more to a fight then others and its that ability to chose that is far more important to balancing in gw2 then any thing else like i started in pve.

Also i would not use the "top" spvp group to balance or even argue about balancing much like i would not use the "top" group in pve raids speed runs to balance any thing in this game. Its just as bad as balancing wvw base off of video of some one solo a raid boss its a joke of anet mentally of what they think is "balancing."

Balancing should be the ability of a class to be used in any given game type and that class being able to switch up there rolls as needed. The skill game play of speed cleaning should be base off of risk reward of gear types more then class types. Playing how you want is playing the class you want filling the roll you want.

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

What about core ele tempest and weaver then? Where do they sit when not being able to provide these boons? This is the issues at hands.

Speed run and raids are a very small part of pve even fractals are a small part of pve having a chose to out put a boons or not is very importan for all points of the game. A class with out this chose is worst off at all points of the game.

Spvp ppl run group comps you can make any class viable with these group comps. The thing is some classes bring more to a fight then others and its that ability to chose that is far more important to balancing in gw2 then any thing else like i started in pve.

Also i would not use the "top" spvp group to balance or even argue about balancing much like i would not use the "top" group in pve raids speed runs to balance any thing in this game. Its just as bad as balancing wvw base off of video of some one solo a raid boss its a joke of anet mentally of what they think is "balancing."

Balancing should be the ability of a class to be used in any given game type and that class being able to switch up there rolls as needed. The skill game play of speed cleaning should be base off of risk reward of gear types more then class types. Playing how you want is playing the class you want filling the roll you want.

Like I wrote above, weaver has issues but it's mainly due to boon reliance and might reliance , also superior elements' reliance on weakness if you are running power weaver (but that can be played around with stats).

Since the topic creator was complaining about elementalist and not weaver in specifically instanced PVE (hence "I really enjoy playing it but now that I've gotten to the endgame with Fractal CMs and Raids I just can't play"), I don't see the point in bringing that up. The only core classes relevant right now are core guardian in specific situations and core warrior when you need more CC than berserker can provide. Complaining about nonmeta DPS is similar to whining about spellbreaker being 30K PVE DPS without providing alacrity/quickness. If you aren't hitting 80% of benchmark (unless you're splitting off in a raid for example and have no boons) , which is 30K+ on every elementalist meta build, it isn't a class problem. I asked Mela on Hardstuck months ago how much their half marauder power weaver with defensive utilities and master's fortitude rather than superior elements for 10% crit chance was pushing and he replied 31K DPS in his testing.

Go into town and asking how many non-instanced PVE players care about PVE DPS. Seriously. The same people are content with autoing on whatever class they are playing which is why there is such a culture shock when they find out their mesmer greatsword or ranger longbow camping auto is not going to cut it (and believe me I have had players like this). If they are playing T4 fractals and are pushing garbage DPS (which I see regularly when I play a non-support) they're still likely to beat the fractal , just in a slightly longer time. That is offset by LFG time to be honest which is why people don't ask for specific classes other than quickness outside of CM fractals (hence QB+alac/DPS is the request rather than QB+alac+BS now).

What you are trying to claim is somehow a CLASS (not spec) without quickness or alacrity is at a severe disadvantage. Well let me tell you something, a week or two ago we did Conjured Amalgamate with no quickness whatsoever on one subgroup because a guardian insisted on playing DH rather than Firebrand. The two subgroups had DPS end result with DH on par with other sub because DH bursts with traps and Whirling Wrath. Power weaver doesn't have this burst that soulbeast and DH has especially after nerfs.

When thinking about quickness,  power burst is the main thing.
* Power soulbeast doesn't have appreciable quickness (3s on a beast ability with 25s base cooldown is not it ; highly doubt Quickening Zephyr with 6s duration and 45 cooldown will be used), neither does thief whatsoever or rifle holo as using utilities such as Elixir U is a DPS loss (same goes for pchrono if you run a well of action and don't use StM).
* Sword holo must use ECSU trait or else the quickness is maybe 2-4 seconds out of 14s cooldown in PVE and ~1-2 seconds in PVP which is negligible.
* While you can use phase transversal on a power renegade, the sustained damage is lower than a elementalist build and you would be better off with Impossible Odds. Power ren is also hitbox dependent and due to Eternity Requiem so is Vindicator to an extent.
* The only major class with quickness as part of typical builds is axe berserker and the quickness is far lower when hitting a single target (2s per target up to 3 targets in PVE on 12 base cooldown or 9.5s traited cooldown) , in PVP sometimes Frenzy is run but that is more for might as the quickness is 4s with 45 cooldown. Very rarely do you see offhand axe run in PVP.
* Reaper isn't normally strong in instanced PVE due to the reliance on lifeforce and the quickness is only in shroud unless you alter the build.

People do strikes and fractals on a daily basis, so saying it is a small part of the community is disingenuous. I expect Arenanet will look at Snowman's Lair metrics to better gauge this as it is technically a strike mission. People don't repeat raids because the rewards are garbage on repeat per week, I cringe whenever I help my guildmates raid and am at 150 magnetite cap as all you get on 2nd time of the week is unid gear which you can get in mere seconds in PVE rather than minutes assuming you don't wipe.

Are you suggesting that PVP should be balanced around bronze or silver, where player skill matters more than build? That's why streamers like Vallun show celestial random builds (like warrior or druid) in a better light than they really are. It's really not so much that the builds are strong as player experience in damage mitigation and burst windows. Obviously easier builds will do well due to lower skill-floor but elementalists , especially weavers, were not advertised as an easy class.

Warrior has no real support role outside of tactics spellbreaker in PVP/WVW right now , so the idea of having a class being usable in every game type in every role is out the window. Healing on mesmer is abysmal. Even if every class could fulfill every role not every class brings the same boons so it is moot, you still need to have boon coverage whether from the player that is on a healer (which serves as role compression : hence 10 man might on tempest/druid) or as a DPS/support (quickbrand, STM chrono, alac ren or mirage, tempest/druid/etc).

• Guard: heal/ quick, cDPS/ burst pDPS
• Revenant: healing was hit with soulcleave change and tablet is janky to move, it fulfills cDPS/pDPS on large hitbox, alac (cele / power alac) --- cDPS in competitive modes is largely nerfed due to torment changes
• Warrior : healing is meme in PVE but common in WVW ; pDPS/cDPS, banner --- will get high power burst with bladesworn , cDPS in competitive modes is not great at all
• Ranger: healer  with 10 man might from Grace of the Land, mediocre sustained pDPS but high power burst, cDPS
• Engineer: cDPS with mechanist/pDPS with holo , support scrapper (power quick/heal scrapper) or barrier alac mechanist for PVE only --- cDPS in competitive modes is not great at all
• Thief: cDPS/mediocre cleave pDPS/high sustained focused pDPS on rifle, will fulfill support with specter in terms of alac and barriers
• Mesmer: cDPS, mediocre pDPS , power boon / alac  --- no serious heal role , in competitive modes one dodge mirage requires a high skill floor to be adept
• Necromancer: cDPS, horrible pDPS for instanced content, barrier support heal scourge, will have quickness role with harbinger
• Elementalist: cDPS, pDPS on large hitbox , heal + 10 man might on tempest, will have quickness role on Catalyst

Literally the only spec that is suffering per say is weaver if tempest hitbox variance is fixed.
 

[Jski.6180]

@Infusion.7149

Weaver is part of ele much like tempest is also part of ele and for what ever reason core ele has been his hard when weaver or tempest over-preformed so you need to talk about every thing ele has.

There a lot of problems with ele mostly that anet feels the need to nerf core ele due to weaver lol. Missing the major boons is a massive lost to the class in both support and self. Its nice to give you self 3 might when you use a glyph but its kind of a joke when classes are giving them self quickness or alacrity. Same could be said for swap boons (seeing how anet felt core ele should not give it self fury on swap but its fine to give fury on catal swap who knows why) there just a real lack of consistently for core vs elite spec as well as from class to class with what boons they have.

Raids and fractals have a hard control on the balancing of all of the game to the point where a video of ppl killing content in these game types will cause them to hot fix over night problems that have been plaguing wvw and spvp. Its good to point out anet flawed point of view on balancing. This is part of pve talk but also about all of gw2.

A class with out the chose of giving out a very unchaining boon that adds so much to the over all game play is like asking a class to be locked to a gear type set. Core ele only able to use zerk gear or a tempest only using healing gear is on the same level of missing a boon.

I do not know what to tell you these classes have the effects if they are pema or not is not important because a player should not need quickness boon all of the time only when it needs to cast skill faster in the moment. I guess 1 skill spam is fun but if that all your getting quickness for then there something wrong with that class. In a lot of ways that how boons should work you support on some level but you also must give your self that boon. The ideal of perma boons is comply game braking and not even close to being balance able.

That fine if ppl run these event but to hold the game hostages like this for balancing is comply unacceptable.

Balancing base off the "top" ppl game play is a good way to what community of avag. players you have. Most ppl dont play at that top level nor do they even know about the "top" ppl at best it seems to them that anet is randomly balancing. Its a no win balancing mind set.

Seems like core war should be buffed to give out these boons maybe though there banners. That thing there is real room for all of these classes to give these boons out there are under to non use skills. The current balancing set up for anet is only going after the high used skills for both nerfs and buff. So these skills become over stacked and all other points of the class become out dated. Look at conja weapons on ele they been given the min set of updates. We have effects on them that do not even fit the game any more. All of this because they dont show up on anet radar of balancing because the top players top content are not using them at all. If we made a video of an ele soloing a full raid with a frost bow it would be nerfed if we had the top spvp ppl use a frost bow it would be updated.

Do we have to take out ads or sponsorships to show anet what needs to be updated?! I say we ask the spvp top players to run the underused skills on both teams for a full year lets see what happens to balancing.

[Infusion.7149]

@Jski.6180
What do ads/streamers have to do with anything at all? Balance is based on metrics.
Weaver is top DPS for elementalist right now when conditions are favorable. If boons are poor or whatnot people can play tempest.
What does ele have? Is this a joke? Core elementalist has access to nearly every relevant offensive boon via arcane traitline which is run in PVP on fire weaver by the way. Both supports put out might, protection, and swiftness (relevant for berserker and weaver DPS) as well as fury if you run the traits for it (something not available to chrono , scrapper, or harbinger). The change to jade sphere to be 5s cooldown in PVE had massive implications on boon duration. Tempests also supply vigor and regen when traited which will have far higher impact on mirages and vindicators in EOD. You're able to clear many conditions rendering Resolution/Resistance far less important : if you want to maximize condi clears then you would drop AOE fury and run fire traitline. Catalyst has resolution , resistance, as well as quickness, so running Spectacular Sphere means you're more or less missing alacrity , stability, and aegis exclusively where aegis and stability are purely defensive boons. Having catalyst put out quickness AND alacrity is not going to happen because Arenanet stated they made specter single target quickness in this last beta specifically so it is only viable to provide alacrity on specter.

You can run condi tempest or power tempest, I'm not sure what leads  you to believe you can only heal as tempest. If a  boon isn't permanent then people will just stack enough of that class til you have perma duration , see chrono/DH or boon thief when you could run it affecting 10 people. Therefore your point about the game being balanced around permanent boons is not correct. If a particular boon is AOE whatsoever and even has 10% uptime then it's asking for trouble since you can run 100% boon duration and 5 of that will cover 10 people, which is why alacrity mirage is relevant along with power DH back when you could run 5 DH.

It costs Arenanet money and developer time to push out balance patches however minor because they need to test changes and localize text for each language. To suggest sweeping changes or even minor changes needs well thought out proposals and the implications of said proposals (something you constantly don't acknowledge when you keep saying ele needs this or that). When people exploit gamebreaking things such as the Strength rune bug , barrier on auto instead of dual attacks, or impale infinite range of course they will hotfix that.

People playing for fun only don't care about class performance they only care about loot how high their win rate is irrelevant. You see this clear as day when players run flamethrower scrappers in PVP for example or memes such as gunflame berserker.

Core warrior doesn't need buffs as it is able to supply might and empower allies on top of banners. Buffing core warrior would make Bladesworn and berserker even higher damage when they are comfortably at 39K or so and 37K-ish on their respective DPS specs without banners.

Also , please use a spellchecker your text is extremely difficult to comprehend half the time.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

@Jski.6180
What do ads/streamers have to do with anything at all? Balance is based on metrics.
Weaver is top DPS for elementalist right now when conditions are favorable. If boons are poor or whatnot people can play tempest.
What does ele have? Is this a joke? Core elementalist has access to nearly every relevant offensive boon via arcane traitline which is run in PVP on fire weaver by the way. Both supports put out might, protection, and swiftness (relevant for berserker and weaver DPS) as well as fury if you run the traits for it (something not available to chrono , scrapper, or harbinger). The change to jade sphere to be 5s cooldown in PVE had massive implications on boon duration. Tempests also supply vigor and regen when traited which will have far higher impact on mirages and vindicators in EOD. You're able to clear many conditions rendering Resolution/Resistance far less important : if you want to maximize condi clears then you would drop AOE fury and run fire traitline. Catalyst has resolution , resistance, as well as quickness, so running Spectacular Sphere means you're more or less missing alacrity , stability, and aegis exclusively where aegis and stability are purely defensive boons. Having catalyst put out quickness AND alacrity is not going to happen because Arenanet stated they made specter single target quickness in this last beta specifically so it is only viable to provide alacrity on specter.

You can run condi tempest or power tempest, I'm not sure what leads  you to believe you can only heal as tempest. If a  boon isn't permanent then people will just stack enough of that class til you have perma duration , see chrono/DH or boon thief when you could run it affecting 10 people. Therefore your point about the game being balanced around permanent boons is not correct. If a particular boon is AOE whatsoever and even has 10% uptime then it's asking for trouble since you can run 100% boon duration and 5 of that will cover 10 people, which is why alacrity mirage is relevant along with power DH back when you could run 5 DH.

It costs Arenanet money and developer time to push out balance patches however minor because they need to test changes and localize text for each language. To suggest sweeping changes or even minor changes needs well thought out proposals and the implications of said proposals (something you constantly don't acknowledge when you keep saying ele needs this or that). When people exploit gamebreaking things such as the Strength rune bug , barrier on auto instead of dual attacks, or impale infinite range of course they will hotfix that.

People playing for fun only don't care about class performance they only care about loot how high their win rate is irrelevant. You see this clear as day when players run flamethrower scrappers in PVP for example or memes such as gunflame berserker.

Core warrior doesn't need buffs as it is able to supply might and empower allies on top of banners. Buffing core warrior would make Bladesworn and berserker even higher damage when they are comfortably at 39K or so and 37K-ish on their respective DPS specs without banners.

Also , please use a spellchecker your text is extremely difficult to comprehend half the time.

You oddly come off as sounding like you dislike the balancing as well but in a more "i cant do any thing about it."

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

You oddly come off as sounding like you dislike the balancing as well but in a more "i cant do any thing about it."

?
I put opinions based on facts instead of conspiracy theories that "arenanet hates ele" or "every class needs every boon".

If topic creator wanted to have an easier to play build ele in most raids and even fractals they can run condi tempest. The only place you would run power instead is VG (+35% power bonus), KC (+35% power bonus), Sloth (big hitbox), and Conjured Amalgamate (big hitbox phased fight) where power weaver if they can trust their boons/tempest can be run.

[Artemis.8034]

On 10/9/2021 at 12:00 PM, SNap.2087 said:

Guess I'm rolling a necro or guardian then, sad that it had to be this way and kind of a waste considering I spent so much time exploring the entire worldmap doing the entire story and a lot of other character specific content....but if anet is not going to fix ele even in the next expansion then I guess  there really is no point.....sad

Thanks a lot for the feedback guys, kinda glad i'm not the only person hurting here

Come over to the dark side, we have cookies, and meta slots. scourge HS healbrand condi quickbrand power reaper even got a buff, and dragonhunter is nice burst and tons of utility
 

[Jski.6180]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

?
I put opinions based on facts instead of conspiracy theories that "arenanet hates ele" or "every class needs every boon".

If topic creator wanted to have an easier to play build ele in most raids and even fractals they can run condi tempest. The only place you would run power instead is VG (+35% power bonus), KC (+35% power bonus), Sloth (big hitbox), and Conjured Amalgamate (big hitbox phased fight) where power weaver if they can trust their boons/tempest can be run.

That is what the topic creator seem to be implying why dose anet let this keep going at is.

[Infusion.7149]

23 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

That is what the topic creator seem to be implying why dose anet let this keep going at is.

The topic creator wrote they are doing poor DPS on ele and keep dying. I doubt that is happening outside pure glass power builds without any support and on power tempest which they are running the only time I see that happening is if you are taking extreme levels of damage on the order of 2K+ DPS (such as on Cold War strike mission and everyone decides to stack together) and you don't have a healer per subgroup as you are able to range on scepter/overload air. On Vale guardian/Gorseval/Sloth for example it's more akin to 1K DPS based on worst logs , on Soulless Horror worst is 1.4K incoming DPS.

In fractals they should be running condi anyway due to condi meta (as exposed has a larger 100% condi bonus as opposed to power which is +30%) and their main complaint was about fractals. Condi weaver (especially on sword) has a reputation for being one of the hardest builds to play, so it is obvious someone having trouble should not play it without practice and opt for something akin to condi tempest if they want to stay on elementalist. They are trying to play DPS power tempest in fractals in a condi meta and also when most things have small to medium hitboxes.

If the thread was to be a legitimate one it would not be "I'm quitting" but to reduce RNG on overload air/lightning orb in the situation of single target count. Because that's the single thing holding power DPS tempest back as I stated several times here.

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The topic creator wrote they are doing poor DPS on ele and keep dying. I doubt that is happening outside pure glass power builds without any support and on power tempest which they are running the only time I see that happening is if you are taking extreme levels of damage on the order of 2K+ DPS (such as on Cold War strike mission and everyone decides to stack together) and you don't have a healer per subgroup as you are able to range on scepter/overload air. On Vale guardian/Gorseval/Sloth for example it's more akin to 1K DPS based on worst logs , on Soulless Horror worst is 1.4K incoming DPS.

In fractals they should be running condi anyway due to condi meta (as exposed has a larger 100% condi bonus as opposed to power which is +30%) and their main complaint was about fractals. Condi weaver (especially on sword) has a reputation for being one of the hardest builds to play, so it is obvious someone having trouble should not play it without practice and opt for something akin to condi tempest if they want to stay on elementalist. They are trying to play DPS power tempest in fractals in a condi meta and also when most things have small to medium hitboxes.

If the thread was to be a legitimate one it would not be "I'm quitting" but to reduce RNG on overload air/lightning orb in the situation of single target count. Because that's the single thing holding power DPS tempest back as I stated several times here.

 

Even as an support build ele is a very much glass caono class that with a all in tankly set up. That the point here ele is all risk and no reward and the lack of effects like what i talk about the boons lacking as well as other effects realy holds back the class.

Most ppl have "quit" ele they are playing other classes.

[Infusion.7149]

13 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Even as an support build ele is a very much glass caono class that with a all in tankly set up. That the point here ele is all risk and no reward and the lack of effects like what i talk about the boons lacking as well as other effects realy holds back the class.

Most ppl have "quit" ele they are playing other classes.

Fresh air tempest has high prot uptime on the order of 50%+, which reduces incoming strike damage by 40%. In addition by running tempest you always have a stunbreak, the same cannot be said for weaver. Fury isn't  a huge problem unless you are running non firebrand quickness especially since you make your own fury on air traitline.

Condi tempest has 10% damage reduction from earth traitline at all times from 360 range. In fractals you can run signet of earth for +180 toughness because there is no toughness tanking and the written in stone trait is used to retain passives on signet of fire anyway, with alac and 25 might you are looking at ~17.5K worth of burning on glyph of elemental power on 20 cooldown, signet of earth is ~23K worth of bleeding on 16 cooldown. Unlike weaver, any might deficit is minimized due to Overload Fire.

On both tempest builds if your heal is on cooldown you also have overload water. On power tempest scepter 3 is 1.8K instant healing, warhorn 4 tidal surge is 1.3K instant healing, 1.9K on water globe (warhorn 5). On condi tempest dagger 2 on water is 944 healing.

Compare this to meta power weaver builds that need 10 might, weakness (for 10% crit chance), swiftness, and EOR.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

10 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If a DPS class does 40K and you already have a 30K DPS quickness or alac provider you aren't slotting another quickness or alac. That would be trolling your group unless you have zero confidence in someone running the quickness/alac build.

Things like this make me think that you're just arm-chairing the raid and fractal perspectives.  The big, trumpeting elephant in the room here is dynamic adjustment and flexibility.  People jump in and out of raid groups all of the time, and with these changes the group gains and loses meaningful roles.  Because of this, the raid and fractal viability of a profession is based largely not on DPS output, but the ability for that profession to adapt to changing situations.

For example, my main raiding toon is the mesmer, and I have never once set foot in raids on an ele.  It isn't that I hate the ele.  It is that the mesmer is the one-stop for solving most problems in the game.  The mesmer toolbox is extremely diverse, the damage is good but flexible, the crowd controls are high quality both in defiance bar damage and enemy movement, and there isn't any glaring flaws that prevent the mesmer from operating against any boss.  Even if a group is completely full and they're just looking for DPS, unless I'm obstinately bringing another profession to "try out" in raids, I'm bringing the mesmer.  Heck, the other night I was recruited into a Qadim training run where I had to change my utilities and tactics around specifically to make up for the deficiencies in the group.

This philosophy isn't unique to me.  People join, and stick with, necromancers, guardians, and revenants because their utilities are either immediately useful or have a high chance of being useful later.  When forming my own groups, the hardest part is sorting out which players are quickness/heals/alacs from those who aren't within the exact same profession.  Even if somebody joins as a rev and alacrity is covered, they stay as a rev because they can always do DPS and swap to alacrity if the current one leaves or is incompetent.

This is a big problem that Jski wants fixed.  I want it fixed, too.  If you look at what each boss has, there's very little that ele can actually do.  Ignore all of the basic roles of "DPS, cDPS, Defiance bar, Tank" that every profession can handle.  What is needed in a group is usually these:

• Quickness, which ele (until catalyst) cannot do.
• Alacrity, which ele cannot do.
• Might, which ele can do, but everyone else handles it, too.
• Fury, which ele can do, but everyone else handles it, too.
• Heals, which ele can do but only on a dedicated build for it.
• Unique Combat Buffs (Banners, Spotter, Assassin's Presence, etc): Which ele cannot do.  
• Immobilize, which ele is bad at (Signet of Earth doesn't cut it).
• Aegis, which ele cannot do
• Group Stability, which ele cannot do
• Boon Removal, which ele cannot do
• Reflects, which ele is pretty bad at but will do in a pinch (Tempest only)
• Portal, which ele cannot do.
• Epidemic, which ele cannot do
• Good movement CC, which ele cannot do
• Qadim Kiter, which ele cannot do
• QtP Pylons which ele cannot do
• This gives elementalist a very small set of roles that it can fulfill,  These roles are handled better and more easily by other professions.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter if there's some videos about rinsing pugs.  It doesn't matter how much exactly alacrity and quickness influence their DPS rotations.  It doesn't matter how durable specific builds are.  It doesn't matter how many random boons ele can spit, since they're already covered better by other professions.  It is a fact that ele contributes very little to group dynamics and handling mechanics, and this is what makes them so undesirable.  Anet would have to raise the DPS to absurd levels to compensate for this minimalist toolbox, and even then ele's will still face ire in lieu of firebrand and scourge, for those professions are easier to play, they're more flexible in what roles they fulfill, and even in full DPS they still provide meaningful buffs and utilities to the group.  Ele needs to do more.  This isn't a problem with weaver.  This is a problem with core.

[Arheundel.6451]

3 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Things like this make me think that you're just arm-chairing the raid and fractal perspectives.  The big, trumpeting elephant in the room here is dynamic adjustment and flexibility.  People jump in and out of raid groups all of the time, and with these changes the group gains and loses meaningful roles.  Because of this, the raid and fractal viability of a profession is based largely not on DPS output, but the ability for that profession to adapt to changing situations.

For example, my main raiding toon is the mesmer, and I have never once set foot in raids on an ele.  It isn't that I hate the ele.  It is that the mesmer is the one-stop for solving most problems in the game.  The mesmer toolbox is extremely diverse, the damage is good but flexible, the crowd controls are high quality both in defiance bar damage and enemy movement, and there isn't any glaring flaws that prevent the mesmer from operating against any boss.  Even if a group is completely full and they're just looking for DPS, unless I'm obstinately bringing another profession to "try out" in raids, I'm bringing the mesmer.  Heck, the other night I was recruited into a Qadim training run where I had to change my utilities and tactics around specifically to make up for the deficiencies in the group.

This philosophy isn't unique to me.  People join, and stick with, necromancers, guardians, and revenants because their utilities are either immediately useful or have a high chance of being useful later.  When forming my own groups, the hardest part is sorting out which players are quickness/heals/alacs from those who aren't within the exact same profession.  Even if somebody joins as a rev and alacrity is covered, they stay as a rev because they can always do DPS and swap to alacrity if the current one leaves or is incompetent.

This is a big problem that Jski wants fixed.  I want it fixed, too.  If you look at what each boss has, there's very little that ele can actually do.  Ignore all of the basic roles of "DPS, cDPS, Defiance bar, Tank" that every profession can handle.  What is needed in a group is usually these:

• Quickness, which ele (until catalyst) cannot do.
• Alacrity, which ele cannot do.
• Might, which ele can do, but everyone else handles it, too.
• Fury, which ele can do, but everyone else handles it, too.
• Heals, which ele can do but only on a dedicated build for it.
• Unique Combat Buffs (Banners, Spotter, Assassin's Presence, etc): Which ele cannot do.  
• Immobilize, which ele is bad at (Signet of Earth doesn't cut it).
• Aegis, which ele cannot do
• Group Stability, which ele cannot do
• Boon Removal, which ele cannot do
• Reflects, which ele is pretty bad at but will do in a pinch (Tempest only)
• Portal, which ele cannot do.
• Epidemic, which ele cannot do
• Good movement CC, which ele cannot do
• Qadim Kiter, which ele cannot do
• QtP Pylons which ele cannot do
• This gives elementalist a very small set of roles that it can fulfill,  These roles are handled better and more easily by other professions.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter if there's some videos about rinsing pugs.  It doesn't matter how much exactly alacrity and quickness influence their DPS rotations.  It doesn't matter how durable specific builds are.  It doesn't matter how many random boons ele can spit, since they're already covered better by other professions.  It is a fact that ele contributes very little to group dynamics and handling mechanics, and this is what makes them so undesirable.  Anet would have to raise the DPS to absurd levels to compensate for this minimalist toolbox, and even then ele's will still face ire in lieu of firebrand and scourge, for those professions are easier to play, they're more flexible in what roles they fulfill, and even in full DPS they still provide meaningful buffs and utilities to the group.  Ele needs to do more.  This isn't a problem with weaver.  This is a problem with core.

They don't want to associate ele with more as they don't want to associate effort with reward as it doesn't sell as good as no effort with reward, if they promote specs like dh, firebrand, renegade..they send a clear message to  newbs that GW2 is for e everybody and all can enjoy end game with little practice

[Mini Crinny.6190]

4 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Group Stability, which ele cannot do
 

You forgot how OP rock solid is man

[Infusion.7149]

7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Things like this make me think that you're just arm-chairing the raid and fractal perspectives.  The big, trumpeting elephant in the room here is dynamic adjustment and flexibility.  People jump in and out of raid groups all of the time, and with these changes the group gains and loses meaningful roles.  Because of this, the raid and fractal viability of a profession is based largely not on DPS output, but the ability for that profession to adapt to changing situations.

For example, my main raiding toon is the mesmer, and I have never once set foot in raids on an ele.  It isn't that I hate the ele.  It is that the mesmer is the one-stop for solving most problems in the game.  The mesmer toolbox is extremely diverse, the damage is good but flexible, the crowd controls are high quality both in defiance bar damage and enemy movement, and there isn't any glaring flaws that prevent the mesmer from operating against any boss.  Even if a group is completely full and they're just looking for DPS, unless I'm obstinately bringing another profession to "try out" in raids, I'm bringing the mesmer.  Heck, the other night I was recruited into a Qadim training run where I had to change my utilities and tactics around specifically to make up for the deficiencies in the group.

This philosophy isn't unique to me.  People join, and stick with, necromancers, guardians, and revenants because their utilities are either immediately useful or have a high chance of being useful later.  When forming my own groups, the hardest part is sorting out which players are quickness/heals/alacs from those who aren't within the exact same profession.  Even if somebody joins as a rev and alacrity is covered, they stay as a rev because they can always do DPS and swap to alacrity if the current one leaves or is incompetent.

This is a big problem that Jski wants fixed.  I want it fixed, too.  If you look at what each boss has, there's very little that ele can actually do.  Ignore all of the basic roles of "DPS, cDPS, Defiance bar, Tank" that every profession can handle.  What is needed in a group is usually these:

• Quickness, which ele (until catalyst) cannot do.
• Alacrity, which ele cannot do.
• Might, which ele can do, but everyone else handles it, too.
• Fury, which ele can do, but everyone else handles it, too.
• Heals, which ele can do but only on a dedicated build for it.
• Unique Combat Buffs (Banners, Spotter, Assassin's Presence, etc): Which ele cannot do.  
• Immobilize, which ele is bad at (Signet of Earth doesn't cut it).
• Aegis, which ele cannot do
• Group Stability, which ele cannot do
• Boon Removal, which ele cannot do
• Reflects, which ele is pretty bad at but will do in a pinch (Tempest only)
• Portal, which ele cannot do.
• Epidemic, which ele cannot do
• Good movement CC, which ele cannot do
• Qadim Kiter, which ele cannot do
• QtP Pylons which ele cannot do
• This gives elementalist a very small set of roles that it can fulfill,  These roles are handled better and more easily by other professions.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter if there's some videos about rinsing pugs.  It doesn't matter how much exactly alacrity and quickness influence their DPS rotations.  It doesn't matter how durable specific builds are.  It doesn't matter how many random boons ele can spit, since they're already covered better by other professions.  It is a fact that ele contributes very little to group dynamics and handling mechanics, and this is what makes them so undesirable.  Anet would have to raise the DPS to absurd levels to compensate for this minimalist toolbox, and even then ele's will still face ire in lieu of firebrand and scourge, for those professions are easier to play, they're more flexible in what roles they fulfill, and even in full DPS they still provide meaningful buffs and utilities to the group.  Ele needs to do more.  This isn't a problem with weaver.  This is a problem with core.

So you're just proving my point, you have a biased angle just as he does. People "jump in and out of groups all the time" only if you don't have clear expectations of what role they are filling and the actual encounter. If it's a smooth run people generally don't drop for no reason because the opportunity cost is poor especially if they are PUGing. It is also highly dependent on the wing/fractal scale.

• Quickness: catalyst can do
• Alacrity: all specs that provide quickness don't provide alacrity in a meaningful way in current meta on the same build , if you run alac on chrono it means you have to raise your boon duration to more or less maximum levels and not do anything incorrect ; alac mirage is not as strong in fractals due to exposed breakbar
• Might: ele does 10 man might , only druid really does 10 man might
• Fury: if by "everybody" you mean guardians exclusively , druids/tempests in the heal role and heralds that people rarely run
• Heals: tempest does 10 man heals, no other class does this, druid has only spirit heals
• Unique buffs: It is usable without them so this is meaningless unless you want to add even more bloat to the game with unique buffs on every spec , most experienced players would rather streamline the system so they are interchangeable (this is why Glyph of Empowerment on druid was removed)
• Immobilize: you can use aftershock as well and on places you need immob such as Gorseval you can split 4 ways (I've had Veigar in my group instead of a druid and he did just that)
• Aegis: Neither does any class other than guardian really, inspi chrono as well ... but this comes down to mantra of solace being busted in PVE and less about balance of elementalist
• Group Stability: Mantra of Concentration on mesmer and Inspiring Reinforcement on revenant are the main providers besides guardian , so 2 classes ; in WVW you'd see scrappers with Defense Field
• Boon Removal: is not relevant in most cases , with exceptions such as on VG (which you only need one) and Q1 (you can kill the pylons instead) /QtP ... in fractals if you run condi this is more or less irrelevant since there is rarely resolution
• Reflects: It's basically relevant for LFG on matthias exclusively
• Portal: Neither can any other class other than chrono or thief ; also in fractals which the post is about everyone can use white mantle portal and it's not a necessity
• Epidemic: If you have good enough cleave other than a few raids and skipping anomaly on 99CM or the 100CM sorrows it isn't relevant
• Good movement CC: I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here
• Q1 Kite: You can do this with any DPS if you have heals
• QtP pylon: There's only 2 classes that normally do this, deadeye and scourge ; scourge has a rougher time with it due to 900 range sand swell

People stick with necromancers, guardians, and revenants because they are EASIER for the normal roles, in fact on meta battle quickness firebrand is classified as a low effort build along with DH and heal scourge. If you ask people to play condi ren with 2 legends and 2 weaponsets the complexity of it is on par with tempest at the minimum , saying otherwise is clear bias. Power rev actually has a meme where you upkeep Jalis hammer / shiro Impossible odds and do 30K DPS auto attacking with proper boons. In addition, you would not explicitly run necromancers on any power fight because reaper isn't spectacular and while you two are ranting about boons the only boons necro puts out reliably now is 5 might for the group and quickness on harbinger. Therefore it boils down to only guardian and revenant, of which revenant is not that strong on power fights when forced into a non-alacrity role such as on Vale Guardian (+35% pDPS) , Conjured Amalgamate (phased fight), or Keep Construct (+35% pDPS).

P.S. The average chrono following snowcrows' 10% BD suggestion is in for a rough time when even speedclear guilds run the 50% BD as seen on LN.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So you're just proving my point, you have a biased angle just as he does. People "jump in and out of groups all the time" only if you don't have clear expectations of what role they are filling and the actual encounter.

No.  They jump in and out because people have conflicting schedules and variable experience on the bosses.  This leads to a high amount of randomness when it comes to recruiting players.  Just look at the LFG or Raid Academy once, and you'll see a bunch of people recruiting for specific bosses and random roles for those bosses.  It doesn't matter if you have a static with predefined roles.  What if someone gets sick?  What if there's a thunderstorm that ruins their connection?  There is a million what-ifs scenarios that remove players from groups no matter how pre-made they are, and you'll never know who is going to show up until it is game time.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If it's a smooth run people generally don't drop for no reason because the opportunity cost is poor especially if they are PUGing. It is also highly dependent on the wing/fractal scale.

What you're neglecting is that raids and fractals are not just pre-made, super experienced players where nothing goes wrong IRL.  You adamantly dismiss everything else, because you've arbitrarily decided that they don't count for some reason.  This is confession through projection: You're the biased one.  I will now demonstrate this:

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Quickness: catalyst can do

Which proves Jski's point and that the devs agree with him, and everyone else who says that elementalists need greater group utility.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Alacrity: all specs that provide quickness don't provide alacrity in a meaningful way in current meta on the same build , if you run alac on chrono it means you have to raise your boon duration to more or less maximum levels and not do anything incorrect ; alac mirage is not as strong in fractals due to exposed breakbar

"Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does." Blah, blah blah.  You've said nothing here.  

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Might: ele does 10 man might , only druid really does 10 man might

And everyone else who also does might (warrior, guardian, revenant, mesmer) to such a large degree that it is usually an afterthought, whether it is in a 5-man group or a 10-man group.  Druid does more, does it better, and does it simultaneously with other things, which is why ele is in low demand and equally low supply.  What you've said does not change this.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Fury: if by "everybody" you mean guardians exclusively , druids/tempests in the heal role and heralds that people rarely run

No.  Nearly everyone has self-fury, while guardians have AoE fury, which is why Ele is in low demand.  Everyone else does more, does it better, and does it simultaneously.  What you've said does not change this.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Heals: tempest does 10 man heals, no other class does this, druid has only spirit heals

Largely irrelevant, because I've seen druid solo-heal raid groups before.  Druid does more, does it better, and does it simultaneously, with other things, which is why ele is in low demand and equally low supply.  What you've said does not change this.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Unique buffs: It is usable without them so this is meaningless unless you want to add even more bloat to the game with unique buffs on every spec , most experienced players would rather streamline the system so they are interchangeable (this is why Glyph of Empowerment on druid was removed)

"Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does."  You're distracting from the point.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Immobilize: you can use aftershock as well and on places you need immob such as Gorseval you can split 4 ways (I've had Veigar in my group instead of a druid and he did just that)

Doesn't matter.  Druid has superior immobilize skills, which means they do more, do it better, and do it simultaneously with other things.  I've run Throw Bolas on Banners to save a newb group, which is far better than 2 seconds of immobilize on Aftershock and 3 seconds of immobilize on Signet of Earth.  You have to consider quality.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Aegis: Neither does any class other than guardian really, inspi chrono as well ... but this comes down to mantra of solace being busted in PVE and less about balance of elementalist

Doesn't matter.  Aegis is in high demand, and ele doesn't do it.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Group Stability: Mantra of Concentration on mesmer and Inspiring Reinforcement on revenant are the main providers besides guardian , so 2 classes ; in WVW you'd see scrappers with Defense Field

Doesn't matter.  Group stability is in high demand, and Ele's are terrible at it.  

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Boon Removal: is not relevant in most cases , with exceptions such as on VG (which you only need one) and Q1 (you can kill the pylons instead) /QtP ... in fractals if you run condi this is more or less irrelevant since there is rarely resolution

Don't forget Twin Largos, Xera, and Dhuum.  So it is still in demand.  "Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does." 

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Reflects: It's basically relevant for LFG on matthias exclusively

And Sabir, Slothasaur, Bandits, Adina, Boneskinner, and all of those countless adds and elites in fractals.  "Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does."

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Portal: Neither can any other class other than chrono or thief ; also in fractals which the post is about everyone can use white mantle portal and it's not a necessity

And scourge.  "Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does."

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Epidemic: If you have good enough cleave other than a few raids and skipping anomaly on 99CM or the 100CM sorrows it isn't relevant

Yes it is.  Epidemic is an excellent problem solving skill that can be used in a lot of places, which is why scourges are recruited so often for it.  "Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does."

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Good movement CC: I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here

Ele's CC is terrible at moving enemies.  You don't just need to break bars, you need to move enemies into specific places to handle mechanics, or to make cleaving enemies down easier.  

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• Q1 Kite: You can do this with any DPS if you have heals

Ele doesn't have high autonomous healing.  This is why you usually see Thief or Spellbreaker handle Q1 kite.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

• QtP pylon: There's only 2 classes that normally do this, deadeye and scourge ; scourge has a rougher time with it due to 900 range sand swell

And?  It is still a necessary role that ele cannot do.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

People stick with necromancers, guardians, and revenants because they are EASIER for the normal roles, in fact on meta battle quickness firebrand is classified as a low effort build along with DH and heal scourge. If you ask people to play condi ren with 2 legends and 2 weaponsets the complexity of it is on par with tempest at the minimum , saying otherwise is clear bias. Power rev actually has a meme where you upkeep Jalis hammer / shiro Impossible odds and do 30K DPS auto attacking with proper boons. In addition, you would not explicitly run necromancers on any power fight because reaper isn't spectacular and while you two are ranting about boons the only boons necro puts out reliably now is 5 might for the group and quickness on harbinger. Therefore it boils down to only guardian and revenant, of which revenant is not that strong on power fights when forced into a non-alacrity role such as on Vale Guardian (+35% pDPS) , Conjured Amalgamate (phased fight), or Keep Construct (+35% pDPS).

No.  People stick with those professions because they can fulfill multiple roles, change builds easily, bring a lot of different utilities, AND they are easier to play.  Your complaints about reapers are a red herring, and you're omitting all of the good and unique things that reapers do.

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

P.S. The average chrono following snowcrows' 10% BD suggestion is in for a rough time when even speedclear guilds run the 50% BD as seen on LN.

This is random and irrelevant

All of this is what Jski means when he says that you bury your posts in information.  Most of the things you say are irrelevant, distracting, or deception via omission..  You're loading up as much useless information in your posts as possible to try and look like an authority on the matter, sneaking in as many presuppositions as you can with the hopes that anyone arguing with you won't notice.  You've spent 672 words to call me biased and prove that you can cherry-pick endlessly.  Most people don't respond like I am now because it is a waste of time.  By the time someone sees you omit reflects, temporal curtain, and epidemic on slothosaur all at the same time, they realize that you're unreasonable and just go do something else.  

[Infusion.7149]

58 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

No.  They jump in and out because people have conflicting schedules and variable experience on the bosses.  This leads to a high amount of randomness when it comes to recruiting players.  Just look at the LFG or Raid Academy once, and you'll see a bunch of people recruiting for specific bosses and random roles for those bosses.  It doesn't matter if you have a static with predefined roles.  What if someone gets sick?  What if there's a thunderstorm that ruins their connection?  There is a million what-ifs scenarios that remove players from groups no matter how pre-made they are, and you'll never know who is going to show up until it is game time.

What you're neglecting is that raids and fractals are not just pre-made, super experienced players where nothing goes wrong IRL.  You adamantly dismiss everything else, because you've arbitrarily decided that they don't count for some reason.  This is confession through projection: You're the biased one.  I will now demonstrate this:

Which proves Jski's point and that the devs agree with him, and everyone else who says that elementalists need greater group utility.

"Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does." Blah, blah blah.  You've said nothing here.  

And everyone else who also does might (warrior, guardian, revenant, mesmer) to such a large degree that it is usually an afterthought, whether it is in a 5-man group or a 10-man group.  Druid does more, does it better, and does it simultaneously with other things, which is why ele is in low demand and equally low supply.  What you've said does not change this.

No.  Nearly everyone has self-fury, while guardians have AoE fury, which is why Ele is in low demand.  Everyone else does more, does it better, and does it simultaneously.  What you've said does not change this.

Largely irrelevant, because I've seen druid solo-heal raid groups before.  Druid does more, does it better, and does it simultaneously, with other things, which is why ele is in low demand and equally low supply.  What you've said does not change this.

"Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does."  You're distracting from the point.

Doesn't matter.  Druid has superior immobilize skills, which means they do more, do it better, and do it simultaneously with other things.  I've run Throw Bolas on Banners to save a newb group, which is far better than 2 seconds of immobilize on Aftershock and 3 seconds of immobilize on Signet of Earth.  You have to consider quality.

Doesn't matter.  Aegis is in high demand, and ele doesn't do it.

Doesn't matter.  Group stability is in high demand, and Ele's are terrible at it.  

Don't forget Twin Largos, Xera, and Dhuum.  So it is still in demand.  "Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does." 

And Sabir, Slothasaur, Bandits, Adina, Boneskinner, and all of those countless adds and elites in fractals.  "Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does."

And scourge.  "Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does."

Yes it is.  Epidemic is an excellent problem solving skill that can be used in a lot of places, which is why scourges are recruited so often for it.  "Everything that the ele can't do doesn't count, and everything they can do no matter how inferior does."

Ele's CC is terrible at moving enemies.  You don't just need to break bars, you need to move enemies into specific places to handle mechanics, or to make cleaving enemies down easier.  

Ele doesn't have high autonomous healing.  This is why you usually see Thief or Spellbreaker handle Q1 kite.

And?  It is still a necessary role that ele cannot do.

No.  People stick with those professions because they can fulfill multiple roles, change builds easily, bring a lot of different utilities, AND they are easier to play.  Your complaints about reapers are a red herring, and you're omitting all of the good and unique things that reapers do.

This is random and irrelevant

All of this is what Jski means when he says that you bury your posts in information.  Most of the things you say are irrelevant, distracting, or deception via omission..  You're loading up as much useless information in your posts as possible to try and look like an authority on the matter, sneaking in as many presuppositions as you can with the hopes that anyone arguing with you won't notice.  You've spent 672 words to call me biased and prove that you can cherry-pick endlessly.  Most people don't respond like I am now because it is a waste of time.  By the time someone sees you omit reflects, temporal curtain, and epidemic on slothosaur all at the same time, they realize that you're unreasonable and just go do something else.  

Yet I did raids off just fine today without anyone dropping and so did many others. I PUG T4 fractals daily as well as helping any groups at boss to make use of my Fractal title. Maybe try playing during primetime. Using GW2RA which is a training discord is not the same thing and since the complaint is mainly about fractals I don't even see the point in talking about GW2RA.

Mesmer does not even apply might outside of alac mirage, that's just a falsehood. Alac mirage generally isn't run outside of SH/TL generally and especially not in fractals. Berserker warrior doesn't supply might whatsoever unless running tactics and the ramp time is high for that.

You act as though guardian has many reflects but it's literally just tome on 60+ cooldown and wall of reflection which generally isn't run outside Matthias. That's why people ask for feedback mirage.

Scourge portal (sand swell) is exclusively used on QTP kiting, it is extremely short range. To compare it to mesmer or thief portal is laughable when those have 5000 range. You wouldn't even be able to portal on Swampland fractal.

Druids are only able to solo heal if they're in their own sub and if the heal demand is low. Tempest heals more actually and isn't reliant on celestial avatar.

Classes that self provide fury generally don't have 100% uptime other than on guardians , among other things you are forgetting.

Eles can push and pull as well, see Air staff 3 (gust), tidal surge on warhorn, cyclone on warhorn,  updraft on offhand dagger, launch on lightning hammer, among other things.

Actually it's usually thief or scourge for Q1 kite but whatever. Soothing mist on elementalist is high healing output if you spec for it and people run tempest kite on Dhuum.

QtP (which you insist is necessary to kite on despite 7/10 roles not being a kite) happens to be large hitbox so suggesting you need to kite on ele when it is a favorable fight is kind of odd.

Also epidemic gets people killed on Sloth quite often, you are better off with CPC and cleave. That's why for the longest time the recommended comps ran weavers and holosmith, but you'll probably pretend that never happened.

I also never said I was an authority on the matter (but I do help maintain the article linked by GW2RA by the way), however it's blantant misinformation to say ele doesn't have boons or that is the main problem. You are welcome to not run ele whatsoever in raids and then offer an opinion on it meanwhile I've run it quite often and I have a guildmate that runs it every week on pretty much every boss... That's also the reason why I mentioned Veigar above is because I see them pretty much on ele all the time. All those things you're mentioning are fluff that isn't even part of typical LFG listings other than kite (hand kite/pillar/pylon), reflect on Matt, push on SH/VG, maybe bubble on CA CM/ Adina (which isn't necessary to beat it). In fractals your assessment doesn't present the real picture of LFG because people look for HB + alac ren or quick+alac, DPS is flexible but used to be BS/DPS before condi meta. The only thing you are possibly correct on is that ele is not easier to play, but it was never advertised as an easy to play class, especially weaver.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Infusion.7149