"New" Kaineng

[Tails.9372]

On 12/21/2021 at 5:25 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I do not recall this.

To give you some examples: Elli (an asura from the personal story) used a holographic projection of herself for live commentaries of illegal golem matches. Kuda used a holographic projection of herself to talk to the player and provide commentary during the specimen chamber meta event.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

On 12/19/2021 at 10:34 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Yawn... call me when the Canthas have built multiple anti-gravity mega-cities like Rata Sum/Rata Primus, a continent wide gateway network of Asura Gates linking all major cities, communications devices that can reach across multiple continents, magical mega super devices on the scale of the Infinite Coil Reactor, and magical golem constructs on the scale of the Mark II Suppressor Golem.

Literally microwaves are the lest impressive, and lowest tech, thing out of anything shown. And the holographic messages are, from what was shown, a one way communication device. Taimi developed what is essentially mobile phones in GW2. Whose range can reach as far as from Vabbi to Rata Novus. The Cantha's holo messages are literally a lesser communication device, with a smaller range. The only reason the Asura don't have such a wide scope use is because they don't control a large enough area to install such a system in central Tyria.

I don't know that I agree that just because they don't have floating mega cities, means they don't have the technology to build them. A major point to consider here is that New Kaining(for all its modern upgrades) is an ancient city, long since lodged firmly into the ground. While it may be possible to use modern tech to raise the city, it would require a significant amount of planning, fiances, resources, and time to safely excavate and build beneath the city, while maintaining it's foundations and structural stability. Conversely, building an entirely new city from the ground up, would also be unlikely. For even as Catha embraces the future, it yet still celebrates it's past.

Honestly, regardless of the method, it doesn't seem worth it; what practicality does a floating city even have? Just building it to say they can is pointless endeavor.

Thus what we seen in the concept art, a blending of the new and old, makes the most sense. That does not mean their technology is inadequate to build new modern megacities, but that they have no desire, or need, to do so.

As for building a Thermanova reactor, why should they? That research facility already accomplished its research goals -and blew up in the process. There is no point in researching known technology. Instead, I suspect we will see Jade Tech labs, building upon and pushing beyond the boundaries of known science.

Edited December 24, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 12/24/2021 at 4:16 AM, Tails.9372 said:

To give you some examples: Elli (an asura from the personal story) used a holographic projection of herself for live commentaries of illegal golem matches. Kuda used a holographic projection of herself to talk to the player and provide commentary during the specimen chamber meta event.

Elli was not even a foot away from her hologram, while Kuda was using pre-recorded messaging for all we could tell.

So those aren't examples of live long-ranged hologram use.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 12/21/2021 at 12:28 PM, Randulf.7614 said:

But, if they can do long range networks with comms devices, waypoints, dimensional portals and other tech, it doesn’t seem unlikely that new networking tech can be devised. It may not be used in the same way elsewhere and you absolutely expect that, but it doesn’t feel out of place either. At least not so far and a better judgement can be made when it goes live and we can get a feel for it in context.

Technology advances at different rates.  In our world, We put people on the Moon before we even had mobile phones and internet. The situation in Cantha is very different than elsewhere and they will have developed different tech and newer foundations for that tech depending on the needs or motivations of their Nation. If Pact technology rose because different races and organisations pooled together to build what is needed for Tyria, I don’t really see why Cantha couldn’t have built different tech utilising the new Dragonjade and the skills of different peoples and groups for their own ends.

The basic idea of the technology isn’t out of place which is the important point. 

Waypoints aren't technology. They're fully magical, and a firm case of mcguffin as nobody explains properly how they work. Same with dimension portals - those aren't tech, those aren't even magitech, they're just magic.

The Comms devices are of similar strain but they're brand new technology that hasn't been commercialized and still hold issues with long-range distances, though it's fairly handwaved after PoF.

But Cantha basically have the internet of the 90s in all but name at this point in time.

 

And honestly, all the sudden tech leaps and bounds in the asura since S3 began have been very weird, handwaved, and immersion harming.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 4:03 AM, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

5. Then the Atherblades went to Cantha and combined their tech with Dragon Jade to create Jade Tech.

Thus we have Modern Cantha, the pinnacle of technology. Honestly this feels very true to real life for me. To name just one example, the western world gave Asia trains, and they gave the world Bullet Trains, and later Maglev Trains.

Nothing yet says the Aetherblades went to Cantha though. Yes, the teaser trailer last year has hidden Aetherblade flags in Raisu Palace, but a) that teaser is not a formal depiction of the game as it depicts GW1 locations (which look different in GW2 as we saw with the live streams), and b) EoD was still with lengthy development ongoing - the first trailers for HoT looks nothing like the final products, from Tarir to Faolain.

[Kayberz.5346]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Waypoints aren't technology. They're fully magical, and a firm case of mcguffin as nobody explains properly how they work. Same with dimension portals - those aren't tech, those aren't even magitech, they're just magic.

The Comms devices are of similar strain but they're brand new technology that hasn't been commercialized and still hold issues with long-range distances, though it's fairly handwaved after PoF.

But Cantha basically have the internet of the 90s in all but name at this point in time.

 

And honestly, all the sudden tech leaps and bounds in the asura since S3 began have been very weird, handwaved, and immersion harming.

 

Nothing yet says the Aetherblades went to Cantha though. Yes, the teaser trailer last year has hidden Aetherblade flags in Raisu Palace, but a) that teaser is not a formal depiction of the game as it depicts GW1 locations (which look different in GW2 as we saw with the live streams), and b) EoD was still with lengthy development ongoing - the first trailers for HoT looks nothing like the final products, from Tarir to Faolain.

Your distinction between "magic" and "technology" makes no sense

 

Waypoints and Asuran portals ARE technology,  it is technology that uses magic

 

And just the same Canthan dragonjade tech is also just technology that uses magic, its dragon magic inside the jade.

 

Magic is literally just a powersource for the technology

 

Creating a device that uses magic to do something is literally no different than making a device that uses electricity or gas to do something, its all technolgy just with different powersources/capabilities 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Poormany.4507]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Nothing yet says the Aetherblades went to Cantha though. Yes, the teaser trailer last year has hidden Aetherblade flags in Raisu Palace, but a) that teaser is not a formal depiction of the game as it depicts GW1 locations (which look different in GW2 as we saw with the live streams), and b) EoD was still with lengthy development ongoing - the first trailers for HoT looks nothing like the final products, from Tarir to Faolain.

Didn't the devs explicitly say that there was a remaining hidden easter egg in the teaser and then confirm it was the Aetherblades flag when it was brought up? If that's the case then the Aetherblades would almost certainly have an already established presence in Cantha (looks like Kaineng/the Undercity in particular), as that flag looks very worn out/old.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Poormany.4507

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Nothing yet says the Aetherblades went to Cantha though. Yes, the teaser trailer last year has hidden Aetherblade flags in Raisu Palace, but a) that teaser is not a formal depiction of the game as it depicts GW1 locations (which look different in GW2 as we saw with the live streams), and b) EoD was still with lengthy development ongoing - the first trailers for HoT looks nothing like the final products, from Tarir to Faolain.

Yo, the teaser trailer didn't just show flags in Raisu Palace, it had Aetherblade Airships and Crew. A couple of the dev streams featured voice actors for Aetherblade characters, and one stream even spoiled some of the Aetherblade characters' names, races, appearances, personalities, and backstories... Like literally what more do you need before you feel its confirmed???

All you have to do is take the various pieces of information they released here and there, and add them together with some good old basic inductive reasoning to formulate a logical hypothesis, and you should arive at this conclusion like the rest of us. If you are incapable of thinking beyond what ANet directly tells you, then why are you questioning their game in the first place?

Im not saying this to insult you. Rather, to ask, why are you fighting this? While it may not yet be 100% confirmed, it is the most reasonable/logical explanation based on the info ANet has thus far provided, so why not just go with it until they prove or disprove it. If you have a better theory, by all means share it, but don't tear this down for no other reason than 'it hasn't been confirmed'. Of course it hasn't been confirmed, that's why its a theory.

There will always be things in storytelling mediums that the creator(s) left unsaid, and as the audience we have to fill in the gap ourselves.  Even if it is never directly confirmed verbatim, that the Aetherblades helped devise Jade Tech. The simple fact that they are in Cantha -and make no mistake, that IS confirmed- is enough information to reasonably infer that they did.

Edited December 26, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

20 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

Your distinction between "magic" and "technology" makes no sense

 

Waypoints and Asuran portals ARE technology,  it is technology that uses magic

 

And just the same Canthan dragonjade tech is also just technology that uses magic, its dragon magic inside the jade.

 

Magic is literally just a powersource for the technology

 

Creating a device that uses magic to do something is literally no different than making a device that uses electricity or gas to do something, its all technolgy just with different powersources/capabilities 

To me there is a solid distinction between "a device that uses magic as a power source" (aka "magitech") and "a device that performs a spell for the user" (aka "a magical device").

Jadetech is solidly the former; asura-tech is a mixture of the two; non-GW2-Canthan human magical devices are solidly the latter (with some occasional modern-GW2 exceptions like Watchknights and Uzolan's golem).

17 hours ago, Poormany.4507 said:

Didn't the devs explicitly say that there was a remaining hidden easter egg in the teaser and then confirm it was the Aetherblades flag when it was brought up? If that's the case then the Aetherblades would almost certainly have an already established presence in Cantha (looks like Kaineng/the Undercity in particular), as that flag looks very worn out/old.

By that argument, Tarir would almost certainly be full of towers and trees, not open plazas at launch, and Faolain would almost certainly serve Mordremoth without looking like a Vinetooth, and this scene of Rytlock walking alone among corpses of Pact soldiers in a Maguuma Wastes-like area would almost certainly be in HoT. All three come from the first teasers for HoT; none were true at launch. This promo shot of Rytlock alone before chak came from the original introduction cinematic for Rytlock, which was changed.

The thing is that the development changes.

The easter egg was there to show the Aetherblades would be involved with EoD, not that they've been in Cantha prior to EoD. Based on the Catalyst, Kuunavang's appearance won't be the same as seen in the trailer, which mirrors perfectly the GW1 visuals, but the Catalyst's Taimu depiction holds some notable differences from Kuunavang in the trailer. In the trailer, we get a shot of the iconic bridge at Shing Jea Monastery with the wavy dragons, but this shot shows that same bridge - no dragons.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

Yo, the teaser trailer didn't just show flags in Raisu Palace, it had Aetherblade Airships and Crew. A couple of the dev streams featured voice actors for Aetherblade characters, and one stream even spoiled some of the Aetherblade characters' names, races, appearances, personalities, and backstories... Like literally what more do you need before you feel its confirmed???

You're clearly misunderstanding my statement;

Aetherblade involvement during End of Dragons is confirmed.

Aetherblade presence in Cantha before the start of End of Dragons, which is what others claimed, is not confirmed.

Side note: all that stuff you mention wasn't in the teaser, but the second trailer or later.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kayberz.5346]

So just more of the same gatekeeping gw lore by refuting anything that doesn't align with your own subjective interpretations

Business as usual i guess

 

Any created device that performs a specific task is technolgy, period.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Kayberz.5346

[Obliviscaris.6937]

21 minutes ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

So just more of the same gatekeeping gw lore by refuting anything that doesn't align with your own subjective interpretations

Business as usual i guess

 

Any created device that performs a specific task is technolgy, period.

They vehemently rejected the idea of Sylvari being dragon minions for years – despite all of the evidence – so this doesn't come as much of a surprise. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Obliviscaris.6937

[Narcemus.1348]

1 hour ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

So just more of the same gatekeeping gw lore by refuting anything that doesn't align with your own subjective interpretations

Business as usual i guess

 

Any created device that performs a specific task is technolgy, period.

I am not sure that this is exactly what they mean, but in my perspective I can see that there's a difference between, say, a small statuette of Balthazar that imbues an individual with supernatural power to rend their enemies when an enchantment is performed and a golem programmed to perform tasks. While that all is technically the same, it is at the very least thematically very different. People rarely refer to Sohothin or the Scepter of Orr as Technology.

 

1 hour ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

They vehemently rejected the idea of Sylvari being dragon minions for years – despite all of the evidence – so this doesn't come as much of a surprise. 

To be fair, most of the evidence used to state that they are minions was wrong. The Dream was not a dragon's hive mind, otherwise it would have died with Mordremoth. And the fact that they could not be corrupted was not because they were minions. As we can see in Crucible of Eternity, many minions of Elder Dragons can be cross corrupted multiple times. What makes more sense is that Sylvari not being corruptible has to do with whatever ritual freed the Pale Tree providing some sort of protection in that regard. So yes, they are Elder Dragon minions, but those who theorized that didn't get it right because of their "evidence." It is more like they had blind luck.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

To be fair, most of the evidence used to state that they are minions was wrong. The Dream was not a dragon's hive mind, otherwise it would have died with Mordremoth. And the fact that they could not be corrupted was not because they were minions. As we can see in Crucible of Eternity, many minions of Elder Dragons can be cross corrupted multiple times. What makes more sense is that Sylvari not being corruptible has to do with whatever ritual freed the Pale Tree providing some sort of protection in that regard. So yes, they are Elder Dragon minions, but those who theorized that didn't get it right because of their "evidence." It is more like they had blind luck.

Except this isn't the case at all.

As we see with Caithe, and death/vine-touched Destroyers, you CAN mix dragon energies within dragon minions and NOT be corrupted by both. There is a fundamental difference between using a dragon's energy, and being corrupted by said Elder Dragon. Caithe herself even clarifies what happened to her is becuase of connection rather then corruption when Taimi questions how its possible.

The Sylvari can't be corrupted because they are Elder Dragon minions, they can however take in multiple dragon energies in a non-corruptive way like Caithe did. The same would apply to things like the Inquest's dragon abominations. None of them are corrupted by any Elder Dragon, they are free entities.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You're clearly misunderstanding my statement;

Aetherblade involvement during End of Dragons is confirmed.

Aetherblade presence in Cantha before the start of End of Dragons, which is what others claimed, is not confirmed.

The bulk of my reply addresses this. Yes its confirmed they are there in Cantha, no its not confirmed they were there before the start of EoD, just as its not confirmed they helped devise Jade Tech. However, when you are posing the question "how did this come to be?"(how did Cantha create Jade Tech?) And you find a potential solution that feels both logical and pliable, "this could have happened because [insert hypothesis based upon available confirmed info]... yes it would explain [insert problem] completely"(the aetherblades are there, they've been missing for a long time, maybe they arrived early and helped devise Jade Tech) Then you have the potential to successfully uncover what ANet has hinted at before they, or even, without them ever confirming it.

Its simple reasoning, if I don't know this, but I do know this, this, and this, then perhaps this... Of course we could be wrong; that's the nature of theory craft... But until ANet confirms or denys it, its the most logical explanation we got, so why not give it a shot?

What irks me is how players will tare up ANet for creating content that they feel doesn't make sense, when said content has yet to even be released and all its details, its full scope and depth, is still unknown. For all they know, whatever they currently think is illogical, will actually be well explained in the content when it is released.  Yet they'd rather firmly believe that a story decision ANet made makes absolutely no sense, than consider logical ways in which it might. In the end, such people are just pessimistic alarmist and hypocrites, decrying our theories for not being confirmed, even while their own complaints are no more than fears, just as unconfirmed as our theories that seek to resolve them.

Edited December 27, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

To me there is a solid distinction between "a device that uses magic as a power source" (aka "magitech") and "a device that performs a spell for the user" (aka "a magical device").

Jadetech is solidly the former; asura-tech is a mixture of the two; non-GW2-Canthan human magical devices are solidly the latter (with some occasional modern-GW2 exceptions like Watchknights and Uzolan's golem).

You're arguing semantics over what are undefined interchangable nominals. A magic wand, for example would most commonly be called a tool, device, artifact... But regardless of what term you apply, its essentially a conduit through which one channels magic, no different from wires that carry electricity. In this case the conduit is applied with the intent of casting a spell.

Likewise, a waypoint that is built to specific parameters, designed and constructed for a singular purpose, is still a conduit through which one channels magic, only in this case instead of casting a spell, the magic is applied to the mechanical process with the functionality of transportation. In either case however, it is never the less a conduit with set specific parameters, or in other words, a form of technology.

When we think of technology, we normally think of gears and wires, but at its very core, tech level 1 if you will, is basic tools like knives and hammers in that case both a wand and a waypoint would both be technology, just at different tech levels with different parameters and capabilities.

The Asuran belief of the Eternal Alchemy is that magic in and of itself is just one big machine if you will, its gears and cogs all forms of raw elemental nature moving with purpose and intent. In that case a spell is but a blueprint, a staff is but a tool, magic is but a systematic process... Its all a technological system.

Edited December 27, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Narcemus.1348]

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except this isn't the case at all.

As we see with Caithe, and death/vine-touched Destroyers, you CAN mix dragon energies within dragon minions and NOT be corrupted by both. There is a fundamental difference between using a dragon's energy, and being corrupted by said Elder Dragon. Caithe herself even clarifies what happened to her is becuase of connection rather then corruption when Taimi questions how its possible.

The Sylvari can't be corrupted because they are Elder Dragon minions, they can however take in multiple dragon energies in a non-corruptive way like Caithe did. The same would apply to things like the Inquest's dragon abominations. None of them are corrupted by any Elder Dragon, they are free entities.

First, I am glad that you did not try to argue that the Dream was a Hive Mind of Mordremoth. I feel like that is fully debunked as evidence for the Sylvari having been minions of an E.D.

 

As for corruption and infusion it is a messy subject. But there is no way that Sylvari immunity is PROOF that they are dragon minions. It definitely sets them apart from other races for sure, but it doesn't prove that connection. The long and short of it is that there is no other example in game of a different minion being unable to be corrupted by a different Elder Dragon. There is no attempted cross corruption of icebrood by Primordus, and no branding of risen. In the end, there is too little information within the game to make Sylvari's inability to be corrupted into a piece of evidence that they are Elder Dragon minions. As I said, I find it more likely that it is protection provided by whatever magic or ritual that originally freed them from Mordremoth in the first place.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Kayberz.5346 said:

So just more of the same gatekeeping gw lore by refuting anything that doesn't align with your own subjective interpretations

Business as usual i guess

 

Any created device that performs a specific task is technolgy, period.

So to you, Sohothin and Magdaer are technology, as is the Scepter of Orr. Idol of Balthazar that transforms people is technology.

I disagree with that viewpoint.

And to pull up the definition of the word "technology":

1. the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry.

   • machinery and equipment developed from the application of scientific knowledge.
   • the branch of knowledge dealing with engineering or applied sciences.

There is a demand is science to be involved. Science is defined as "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment." And this does not seem to be applied in any human magical devices.

And depending on the worldbuilding, magic itself is defying "the physical and natural world" by being supernatural. Hard to argue whether magic in Guild Wars follows one or the other, as at times it seems to follow one and at other times it seems to follow the other.

And to clarify, I am not gatekeeping anything. I'm simply stating my dislike with the speed of industrialization that Cantha has exhibited, and arguing that Cantha has become more advanced than the asura.

There has been nothing gatekeeping about my statements. I have not defied the right of anyone else in enjoying the direction of lore for EoD. Merely stated my own dislike.

 

So it'd be kind of you not to insult me so blatantly.

 

 

10 hours ago, Obliviscaris.6937 said:

They vehemently rejected the idea of Sylvari being dragon minions for years – despite all of the evidence – so this doesn't come as much of a surprise. 

I rejected the idea because the arguments for it were either unfounded or disproven - at the time, all the theories relied on debunked merits, similar to the "the Six Gods are the Elder Dragons" theories. Such as the belief that Ventari purified the Pale Tree - we still, to this day, do not know how the Pale Tree was purified and such an argument ignores and rejects Malyck's existence. Or the argument that sylvari couldn't be corrupted because they're dragon minions, Crucible of Eternity proves that's not the case with Subject Alpha - and no, the Inquest did not do more than the Elder Dragons do as we visibly witness first hand that all the Inquest did was shoot dragon energy into subjects to see what happens.

And even if you argue that Subject Alpha and Kudu's Monster aren't proof of "dragon minions can be corrupted by other dragon magics", there's the hard fact that we see evidence of other non-dragon minions being immune to dragon corruption (primarily: Forgotten enchanted objects, magic, and beings, including the Exalted).

People got to the right destination using the wrong instructions.

But if you want to insist that those arguments remain true to this day, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

6 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except this isn't the case at all.

As we see with Caithe, and death/vine-touched Destroyers, you CAN mix dragon energies within dragon minions and NOT be corrupted by both. There is a fundamental difference between using a dragon's energy, and being corrupted by said Elder Dragon. Caithe herself even clarifies what happened to her is becuase of connection rather then corruption when Taimi questions how its possible.

The Sylvari can't be corrupted because they are Elder Dragon minions, they can however take in multiple dragon energies in a non-corruptive way like Caithe did. The same would apply to things like the Inquest's dragon abominations. None of them are corrupted by any Elder Dragon, they are free entities.

That is semantic nitpicking to its finest degree, honestly.

Because Crucible of Eternity still shows dragon minions corrupted by multiple energies.

And both Season 2 and HoT promotions - the latter coming out after the sylvari minion reveal that the sylvari's protection came not from their nature as dragon minions, but their connection to the Dream of Dreams via the Pale Tree.

 

4 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

You're arguing semantics over what are undefined interchangable nominals.

Maybe. But honestly, it's irrelevant to my original statement of belief that the advancement is too fast, and Canthans' jadetech have exceeded asura magitech.

How one defines the interaction of magic and science and thus technology is ultimately irrelevant to the rate of development and current placement of development.

And development of technology can be specialized to advance in different areas - just because asura have portals, doesn't mean they're more advanced than Canthans with a continent-spanning live-time holographic news network.

4 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

The Asuran belief of the Eternal Alchemy is that magic in and of itself is just one big machine if you will, its gears and cogs all forms of raw elemental nature moving with purpose and intent. In that case a spell is but a blueprint, a staff is but a tool, magic is but a systematic process... Its all a technological system.

Not quite. Eternal Alchemy is the belief that "all things" are interconnected akin to one big working mechanism. It isn't about magic specifically, but people, the world itself, and the natural and supernatural systems within the multiverse.

And honestly, most fantasy settings won't be considering Sohothin, the Scepter of Orr, or Braham's enchanted bow to be "magitech". Just simply "magic". And so do Tyrians by all indication I've seen, even asura.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Maybe. But honestly, it's irrelevant to my original statement of belief that the advancement is too fast, and Canthans' jadetech have exceeded asura magitech.

You are absolutely correct, we have gone quite off topic when we begin debating semantics.

So then tell me, why do you think it so unlikely that after Scarlet's fall that left Mai Trin as a war criminal without allies, support, or backing -and certainly nowhere that her Atherblades would be welcome to live, build up and operate; that she might consider returning to her ancestral homeland and offering Artherblade tech in exchange for power and wealth or even simply a safe place to call home? Since we know they have been missing for years, and have since established a presence in Cantha, what's to say they haven't been there all this time? It isn't so left field is it? If one can make reasonable assertions that support this theory, then perhaps there's something to it.

Edited December 27, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

37 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

You are absolutely correct, we have gone quite off topic when we begin debating semantics.

So then tell me, why do you think it so unlikely that after Scarlet's fall that left Mai Trin as a war criminal without allies, support, or backing -and certainly nowhere that her Atherblades would be welcome to live, build up and operate; that she might consider returning to her ancestral homeland and offering Artherblade tech in exchange for power and wealth or even simply a safe place to call home? Since we know they have been missing for years, and have since established a presence in Cantha, what's to say they haven't been there all this time? It isn't so left field is it? If one can make reasonable assertions that support this theory, then perhaps there's something to it.

 

First thing: Why wouldn't Mai go there? Better question to me is why would she go there. The last contact Tyrians had with Cantha was full of xenophobia government, and Mai leads a multiracial group with an asura (and formerly, a norn) as her right-hand. For all she could possibly know, she'd be leading 2/3rd of her crew into imprisonment and execution grounds. That's pretty kittening selfish of her - but I guess she is a pirate. However, the heavy non-human aspect of her crew implies that she wouldn't forsake them for personal sanctuary.

[EDIT: Similarly, the little lore we have on the Aetherblades from the Shing Jea stream indicates that the Aetherblades attacked Shing Jea and we helped stopped that (unless I misunderstood the dialogue we saw) painting them as criminals in Cantha too, not technological suppliers.]

I'm not so sure that Tyria would be so inhospitable to the Aetherblades, given how well bandits, White Mantle, pirates, Flame Legion, Renegades, etc. manage to survive despite being in active war with much stronger forces next door.

And then there's the question of how would they get there? The last we saw them, they were stuck in the Mists and were fulfilling some plans of Scarlet. While they went MIA, they could have gone any number of places to hide in Tyria or even Elona, and even then, with the DSD's minions in the Unending Ocean, no recent navigational charts to Cantha, and - if they truly were so unwanted in all of Tyria as you suggest - lacking fuel and supplies for the lengthy journey due to inability to barter.

 

More than that though, in the second trailer Joon mentions "a century of progress", implying that jadetech is older than 1327 AE, but would be younger than when contact was cut off in 1219 AE.

And even then I am not quite sure that dragontech resembles asuratech as much as suggested by some in this thread - there's a severe lack of hexagons, for example, which is all over asuratech; similarly, not sure it so heavily resembles aetherblade tech, which is powered by steam and lightning magic while jadetech is powered by (magical) stones. The closest similarity is the existence of pipes strewn throughout Neo Jade Brotherhood camps, but Canthans had plumbing and general pipe designs in Cantha back in GW1.

Which is to say, that while jadetech seems to be leaps above what Tyrians have - and leaps and bounds beyond what one would expect even with an industrial revolution after 100 years tops 6 years minimum - it seems too distant in design and conception from asuratech or aetherblade-tech ('ll dub it aethertech for the timebeing, I don't quite remember if there's a shorthand for it in-game from S1) to originate from either.

 

Which is to say, based on design and function, jadetech looks like parallel magitech, not a branch of, asuratech and aethertech.

 

Also, the notion that Mai Trin is the introductory cause of the technological boom would suggest that this jade technology was redeveloped to utilize magical jade as a powersource and spread to such heavy commercial that it floods New Kaineng City in under 6 years. And that's just simply insane production for brand new technology that held zero presence prior to introduction. That's far more unrealistic than Canthans going from magical equivalent 14th century tech to magical equivalent late-20th century tech in a single century.

 

EDIT: So I guess there's three reasons why I disagree with the theory that Mai Trin supplied the foundation of jadetech.

1) Mai Trin's Motive.

2) Rate of Development and Spread of Jadetech.

3) Notable differences between Jadetech and Aethertech.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So to you, Sohothin and Magdaer are technology, as is the Scepter of Orr. Idol of Balthazar that transforms people is technology.

I disagree with that viewpoint.

And to pull up the definition of the word "technology":

1. the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry.

   • machinery and equipment developed from the application of scientific knowledge.
   • the branch of knowledge dealing with engineering or applied sciences.

There is a demand is science to be involved. Science is defined as "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment." And this does not seem to be applied in any human magical devices.

And depending on the worldbuilding, magic itself is defying "the physical and natural world" by being supernatural. Hard to argue whether magic in Guild Wars follows one or the other, as at times it seems to follow one and at other times it seems to follow the other.

There are many works of fantasy wherein magic IS systematic, natural, logical, and mathematical with its own laws and principals. For example Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archives and the Mistborn Trilogy, both of which are stand-alone series that take place on their own planets(within the same universe) and with their own unique but related systems of magic.

Conversely, fantasy works wherein magic does not have KNOWN systematic structure and is viewed as a supernatural chaotic force that defies the logic of science, it may be that it does have its own laws and guiding principals, but they are merely not yet known or understood. For example id argue that any incantation, potion recipe, or wand gesture is a structured formula that must be followed to achieve the desired results, no different than any scientific formula or mathematical equation. This indicates some greater order hidden under the apparent chaos and mysticism.

But putting other works of fantasy aside, this is absolutely true for Guild Wars with the Eternal Alchemy absolutely making magic a natural force of the world, even if at times it seems to defy that order.

Edited December 27, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 minutes ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

But putting other works of fantasy aside, this is absolutely true for Guild Wars with the Eternal Alchemy absolutely making magic a natural force of the world, even if at times it seems to defy that order.

I disagree that it is "absolutely true" but rather that it "could be true". The asura certainly believe it is, and approach it scientifically, but as I said - Eternal Alchemy belief is about everything, not simply magic.

The key thing is that only asura approach magic scientifically with systematic, logical, and mathematical values with its own laws. We don't see this among sylvari, norn, or humans of any nation. Neither did we see it from the jotun, forgotten, mursaat, or dwarves for what little we do get to see of those.

And the asura have been marked as wrong or too sure of themselves for their own good. Even Ogden says as much in Season 2 when talking about the Eternal Alchemy:

Ogden Stonehealer: Ah yes. Only asura would attempt to quantify nature itself. But then, they are limited in perspective.

Ogden Stonehealer: By attempting to define the undefinable, they actually move further from the truth rather than closer to it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana

Ogden's description, counter to the asura's belief, is that magic is not a systematic, logical, and mathematical aspect of the world.

 

Hard to say which one is accurate thanks to ArenaNet's overuse of unrealiable narrator, and as the writers have not firmly defined Tyria's magical systems in deep detail, but it's notable that it's not a universal view of Tyrians about how to treat magic. Which is probably a big portion of why for non-asura, "magical devices" are not "magitech devices".

Edited December 27, 2021 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

12 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

First thing: Why wouldn't Mai go there? Better question to me is why would she go there. The last contact Tyrians had with Cantha was full of xenophobia government, and Mai leads a multiracial group with an asura (and formerly, a norn) as her right-hand. For all she could possibly know, she'd be leading 2/3rd of her crew into imprisonment and execution grounds. That's pretty kittening selfish of her - but I guess she is a pirate. However, the heavy non-human aspect of her crew implies that she wouldn't forsake them for sanctuary.

[EDIT: Similarly, the little lore we have on the Aetherblades from the Shing Jea stream indicates that the Aetherblades attacked Shing Jea and we helped stopped that (unless I misunderstood the dialogue we saw) painting them as criminals in Cantha too, not technological suppliers.]

I'm not so sure that Tyria would be so inhospitable to the Aetherblades, given how well bandits, White Mantle, pirates, Flame Legion, Renegades, etc. manage to survive despite being in active war with much stronger forces next door.

And then there's the question of how would they get there? The last we saw them, they were stuck in the Mists and were fulfilling some plans of Scarlet. While they went MIA, they could have gone any number of places to hide in Tyria or even Elona, and even then, with the DSD's minions in the Unending Ocean, no recent navigational charts to Cantha, and - if they truly were so unwanted in all of Tyria as you suggest - lacking fuel and supplies for the lengthy journey due to inability to barter.

 

More than that though, in the second trailer Joon mentions "a century of progress", implying that jadetech is older than 1327 AE, but would be younger than when contact was cut off in 1219 AE.

And even then I am not quite sure that dragontech resembles asuratech as much as suggested by some in this thread - there's a severe lack of hexagons, for example, which is all over asuratech; similarly, not sure it so heavily resembles aetherblade tech, which is powered by steam and lightning magic while jadetech is powered by (magical) stones. The closest similarity is the existence of pipes strewn throughout Neo Jade Brotherhood camps, but Canthans had plumbing and general pipe designs in Cantha back in GW1.

Which is to say, that while jadetech seems to be leaps above what Tyrians have - and leaps and bounds beyond what one would expect even with an industrial revolution after 100 years tops 6 years minimum - it seems too distant in design and conception from asuratech or aetherblade-tech ('ll dub it aethertech for the timebeing, I don't quite remember if there's a shorthand for it in-game from S1) to originate from either.

 

Which is to say, based on design and function, jadetech looks like parallel magitech, not a branch of, asuratech and aethertech.

 

Also, the notion that Mai Trin is the introductory cause of the technological boom would suggest that this jade technology was redeveloped to utilize magical jade as a powersource and spread to such heavy commercial that it floods New Kaineng City in under 6 years. And that's just simply insane production for brand new technology that held zero presence prior to introduction. That's far more unrealistic than Canthans going from magical equivalent 14th century tech to magical equivalent late-20th century tech in a single century.

 

EDIT: So I guess there's three reasons why I disagree with the theory that Mai Trin supplied the foundation of jadetech.

1) Mai Trin's Motive.

2) Rate of Development and Spread of Jadetech.

3) Notable differences between Jadetech and Aethertech.

As much as I disagree with you, I am thrilled to see you flexing your Lore Muscles, as opposed to simply claiming, "not confirmed".

 

1. Other races not welcome:

The devs revealed that is no longer the case, as the ministry of purity has been overthrown. Sure, Mai Trin wouldn't have known this... Unless she, one of her crew, or a personal/business contact traveled there... Maybe they didn't even intend to go there initially, but that's where the mist just happened to dump them... Speculation abound.... 

2. "A century of progress":

Jade Tech could have existed before the Aetherblades arrived, but made a quantitative jump after it was infused with the knowledge they brought. Although another possibility is that they made a time jump or two while traveling through the mist.

3. Jade Tech doesn't resemble Asura Tech or Aether Tech:

Certainly, but the Aetherblades are not bringing Asura tech, but rather the byproduct of a multicultural/racial/national technological collaboration, and then further mixing it up with Dragon Jade and whatever has been learned about it over a "century of progress". Also, I've always personally thought of the Asuran cubes as a cultural architectural aspect to their technology rather than a functional requisite. As for it not matching Aether Tech, perhaps after infusing their knowledge with Cantha's Dragon Jade knowledge, it wasn't a mater of 2+8=10, but rather 2*8=16. The combination of two different technologies does not necessarily resemble the sum of their appearances when they were apart. Perhaps they learned how to achieve the same effect without needing so many pipes. That is after all the point of innovation, to get more with less. It's why our laptops aren't the size of houses and don't have steampipes sticking out of them.

4. Other Evil organizations survived in Tryia:

Other organizations had backing, they didn't lose their leader and base of operations, had a long history of local actively that firmly implanted their roots, or their activities were limited to harassing one nation as supposed to all of them.

5. Mia Trin's Motive:

Honestly have no idea what that might be at this point, as there's not a lot of info to go off of in that regard. But like the begining of any good murder mystery, the motive need not be obvious from the on-start.

You said they could go anywhere in the world, this is true... But what other place outside of Tyria, does she have any semblance of a connection to? It could very well be personal and emotional. Maybe it was her dream to go to the lands of her ancestors ever since she was a little girl. Maybe her parents and grandparents have told her stories. Maybe she wants to reconnect to her culture.

Or perhaps her motive is more practical, perhaps its the same as all historical successful pirates, to legitimize by becoming a buccaneer; serve one thrown to receive it's protection and the right to "lawfully" steal from another. So yeah, wealth, protection, status, power.

6. They attacked Shing Jia:

Did they? I didn't notice that. But if you'll excuse my pun, Cantha has always had factions, there could be an underlying reason for the attack. Conversely there is the possibility that they did not willingly share their technology with Cantha. Fight an enemy for long enough, and you eventually obtain some of their tech.

Edited December 27, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I disagree that it is "absolutely true" but rather that it "could be true". The asura certainly believe it is, and approach it scientifically, but as I said - Eternal Alchemy belief is about everything, not simply magic.

The key thing is that only asura approach magic scientifically with systematic, logical, and mathematical values with its own laws. We don't see this among sylvari, norn, or humans of any nation. Neither did we see it from the jotun, forgotten, mursaat, or dwarves for what little we do get to see of those.

And the asura have been marked as wrong or too sure of themselves for their own good. Even Ogden says as much in Season 2 when talking about the Eternal Alchemy:

Ogden Stonehealer: Ah yes. Only asura would attempt to quantify nature itself. But then, they are limited in perspective.

Ogden Stonehealer: By attempting to define the undefinable, they actually move further from the truth rather than closer to it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana

Ogden's description, counter to the asura's belief, is that magic is not a systematic, logical, and mathematical aspect of the world.

 

Hard to say which one is accurate thanks to ArenaNet's overuse of unrealiable narrator, and as the writers have not firmly defined Tyria's magical systems in deep detail, but it's notable that it's not a universal view of Tyrians about how to treat magic. Which is probably a big portion of why for non-asura, "magical devices" are not "magitech devices".

This is the second time you corrected me that the Eternal Alchemy doesnt define the structure of magic, but the structure of everything. To that I reply, magic is part of everything, and thus by extension, the Eternal Alchemy DOES define the structure of magic. So it's a mute point; stop making it. As for the potential that the Asura are wrong; sure that would be possible... If we didn't see it ourselves.

A logical organized system can appear chaotic if you don't know and understand the principals that prove it otherwise. Even after you outline the basic system something seemingly chaotic could come along and defy it, but outliers exist in everything. It could be that even though on the surface it appears to defy the known system, that there is yet still a logical formula that explains it's strange correlation. Or then again, it could be that the original system you devised was wrong. But that doesn't mean magic is chaotic, merely that your initial understanding of it was flawed.

The Earth was considered flat until astrologist realized it was round. 'If it was round, why don't we fall off it?' thought some, until gravity explained it. Flight defied the laws of gravity, untill the principles that made it possible were understood. The workings of the universe were first explained by mysticism before science stepped in to uncover the true laws that guide them. Since their inception these laws have been constantly challenged, broken, then reforged, before being challenged again.

Edited December 27, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

I've decided to put the theory of Aether Tech having a profound influence on Jade Tech to bed for a moment and consider alternatives. Some seem to be or the opinion that it is impossible for Canthans, who were technologically behind Asura, to not only catch up, but even surpass them in a decade. I challenge this assertion to its very core.

1. In the real world, within a 100 years Asia went from being far behind the western world in terms of tech and industry, to now being its leading innovator. This proves it is possible.

2. Furthermore, within the last 250 years, our technology has advanced at a rate so fast, it far outweighs the success of the previous 1,000. Why? The three major heros of the Industrial Revolutions: Coal, Oil, and Electricity were the catalysts that allowed us to breakthrough the stagnation of reaching our previous technological platues in rapid succession. Dragon Jade is Cantha's breakthrough catalyst. 

3. When Europeans first came to the Americas, they found the Native Americans still locked in the stone age. Why? Scholars say load bearing beast of burden prompted the invention of the wheel, and rapid technological advancement all began with the wheel. Unfortunately however, such animals were not present in North America pre-colonization. Dragon Jade, a resource far superior to any available to the Asura; for Canthans, it is their wheel.

 

Taking a step back to my previous Aether-tech theory, these points still align, but are further accentuated:

Asia's technological superiority started when they took western tech and put their own spin on it. The Canthans could have done the same with Aether-tech.

Edited December 27, 2021 by OtakuModeEngage.8679

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

1. Other races not welcome:

The devs revealed that is no longer the case, as the ministry of purity has been overthrown. Sure, Mai Trin wouldn't have known this... Unless she, one of her crew, or a personal/business contact traveled there... Maybe they didn't even intend to go there initially, but that's where the mist just happened to dump them... Speculation abound.... 

It's no longer the case, but Mai Trin wouldn't know this unless she had contact with Cantha already. Which being Tyrian, she shouldn't. The last any Tyrian knows about Cantha is that it was still under Usoku's rule. The xenophobia regime collapsed after Usoku's rule, so Tyrians wouldn't know that the xenophobia ended until they got contact with Canthans again.

The earliest possible contact with Cantha comes from the Zephyrites in Festival of the Four Winds - after Mai Trin and the Aehterblades vanish into the Mists.

12 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

2. "A century of progress":

Jade Tech could have existed before the Aetherblades arrived, but made a quantitative jump after it was infused with the knowledge they brought. Although another possibility is that they made a time jump or two while traveling through the mist.

So far the Mists isn't capable of actual time travel. At most you just get fractals. Hopefully ArenaNet won't introduce time travel because that's always a hot mess of boiling kitten to deal with and reduces the quality of any narrative not created for time travel from the get go. Same with Marvel-styled multiverses.

 

As to the idea of jumping jadetech along. While this is possible, again the distribution of such to the extent we see in the New Kaineng City concept art would be beyond unrealistic.

12 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

3. Jade Tech doesn't resemble Asura Tech or Aether Tech:

Certainly, but the Aetherblades are not bringing Asura tech, but rather the byproduct of a multicultural/racial/national technological collaboration, and then further mixing it up with Dragon Jade and whatever has been learned about it over a "century of progress". Also, I've always personally thought of the Asuran cubes as a cultural architectural aspect to their technology rather than a functional requisite. As for it not matching Aether Tech, perhaps after infusing their knowledge with Cantha's Dragon Jade knowledge, it wasn't a mater of 2+8=10, but rather 2*8=16. The combination of two different technologies does not necessarily resemble the sum of their appearances when they were apart. Perhaps they learned how to achieve the same effect without needing so many pipes. That is after all the point of innovation, to get more with less. It's why our laptops aren't the size of houses and don't have steampipes sticking out of them.

Others like Sajuuk had said earlier in the thread that jadetech looks like asura tech, which is where that comes in. And Aetherblades would be introducing "aethertech" if they're integrating their own technology as a foundation for jadetech. So there would be aesthetic similarities to note beyond super generic things, even if minutely. Our laptops aren't the size of houses and don't have steampipes sticking out them because we've had a century of computer progression. When laptops were first introduced, they looked a lot more closer to a desktop than now, just combining the features before. And desktops now may look vastly different, but we've had 50+ years to differentiate them from the giant towers.

Aetherbalde tech mixing into or creating jadetech would have less than a decade.

When cellphones were first invented, they looked like landlines minus a cord. Now they look like a shrunken tablet. But that's 30 years later, not 6.

 

So again, my issue is the rate of development being too hasty.

12 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

4. Other Evil organizations survived in Tryia:

Other organizations had backing, they didn't lose their leader and base of operations, had a long history of local actively that firmly implanted their roots, or their activities were limited to harassing one nation as supposed to all of them.

Pirates in Gendarran and Bloodtide don't have backing, they lost anything resembling a unified leader (Taidha) and their bases. But they remain an active threat. Same with bandits - they lost their White Mantle funding, lost a bunch of bases, but they remain an active threat according to Anise in S4E6; similarly, there's still corrupt ministers despite losing WM funding.

Finding a new base in a whole continent isn't a huge feat, especially with enough manpower. And there are confirmed blackmarkets that Mai Trin could interact with. Scarlet might have pissed off Lion's Arch, but she didn't kitten off every known organization in Tyria - and neither did the Aetherblades and Mai Trin.

12 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

5. Mia Trin's Motive:

Honestly have no idea what that might be at this point, as there's not a lot of info to go off of in that regard. But like the begining of any good murder mystery, the motive need not be obvious from the on-start.

You said they could go anywhere in the world, this is true... But what other place outside of Tyria, does she have any semblance of a connection to? It could very well be personal and emotional. Maybe it was her dream to go to the lands of her ancestors ever since she was a little girl. Maybe her parents and grandparents have told her stories. Maybe she wants to reconnect to her culture.

Or perhaps her motive is more practical, perhaps its the same as all historical successful pirates, to legitimize by becoming a buccaneer; serve one thrown to receive it's protection and the right to "lawfully" steal from another. So yeah, wealth, protection, status, power.

Why does the place they go to have to be a place Mai Trin has a tenuous tie to? I mean, first off, she might be of Canthan descent, but there'd be 100 years distance between her, her family, and Cantha. She descended from refugees who fled Usoku's reign before Zhaitan rose, or be descended from Canthan business who were cut off from Cantha by Zhaitan's rise. In either way, she herself has zero direct ties to Cantha.

And if the Aetherblades have to go to a place where someone has ties to, what about the dredge members? or asura members? or norn members?

Why not go into the Woodland cascades, which have norn settlements? Norn don't judge people for their associations, but personal actions, and Mai Trin didn't attack Lion's Arch and killed hundreds of thousands - Scarlet did. The Aetherblades that attacked Lion's Arch died there, more likely than not. Why not dredge settlements? The dredge pilot could vouche for Mai Trin and her crew, and dredge are known to have black market dealings with Scarlet before S1, and worked with Scarlet during S1.

Why not go where none have dealings and start anew? Or barter a deal with the Inquest? Or go to Elona and work as a mercenary?

 

The Taimi dialogue during the Return to mentions that people have been raiding dragon-studying labs, and what we know about Ankka indicates that she is interested in studying the Elder Dragons and holds dislike for the Commander and co's actions. Which to me implies the Aetherblades aren't yet situated in Cantha, because the implication I get is that the Aetherblades are the ones rampaging about labs studying Elder Dragons.

12 hours ago, OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

6. They attacked Shing Jia:

Did they? I didn't notice that. But if you'll excuse my pun, Cantha has always had factions, there could be an underlying reason for the attack. Conversely there is the possibility that they did not willingly share their technology with Cantha. Fight an enemy for long enough, and you eventually obtain some of their tech.

There was dialogue about an attack the Commander helped out with - which devs explained was a story instance before the open world - and IIRC (I might be wrong), it's mentioned the attack was by Aetherblades.