ANET, Where are you?

[OnlyFear.9165]

As someone who's enjoyed this game since GW1 Beta, Ran top GVG Guilds and have gone on to Tournaments in China alongside some of the old ANET Employee's. I'm blown away by the current set of gameplay that's happening right now. Not only is PVP still broken per rank and easy to manipulate, you have ranked games where 8/10 times you're getting at least 1 bot, at the worst, 3. It's demoralizing and causing what fun there's left for the strong PVP base. Anyone higher on the leaderboards isn't actually earning it, let's be honest.. I usually only play in EU now because it seems to be the Americas are not cared about and constantly overlooked. Will there be a fix for this? Is GW2 just a money stroker now? I don't get it.

 

Post may seem ranty, but it's what it's. I love this game. Stop being simpleton's anet, fix this game already. What're you waiting for?

Edited November 10, 2021 by OnlyFear.9165

[Rotten Apple.9643]

I see a lot of praise for ANETs increased communication but they have still yet to even comment on the plague of issues bearing down on pvp. Its actually infuriating that they refuse to say ANYTHING

[Morwath.9817]

Communication was never their strong side, maybe except around HoT, and I wouldn't expect anything before EoD.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

It’s great that you care, ive played since GW 1 factions release…little less than 2 decades with this franchise.

 

but it’s wrong to believe that communication will improve anything…because if history is our guide it’s shown that increased communication from Anet to its users actually causes more issues.

 

The problem is that most customers, are not game developers and don’t know a thing about creating a game. I say this all the time…Just because you are good at the game does not make you qualified to balance one. 
 

Any business owner understands what kind of information to take away from their customers…like user-interface experience, general liking or disliking of a product and so on. Suggestions : hardly ever useful. When you got balance devs who aren’t businessmen playing the role of what is usually that of a buisness man…you can see how this complicates the issue of filtering useful feedback and terrible feedback from each other. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Morwath.9817]

10 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

It’s great that you care, ive played since GW 1 factions release…little less than 2 decades with this franchise.

 

but it’s wrong to believe that communication will improve anything…because if history is our guide it’s shown that increased communication from Anet to its users actually causes more issues.

 

The problem is that most customers, are not game developers and don’t know a thing about creating a game. I say this all the time…Just because you are good at the game does not make you qualified to balance one. 
 

Any business owner understands what kind of information to take away from their customers…like user-interface experience, general liking or disliking of a product and so on. Suggestions : hardly ever useful. When you got balance devs who aren’t businessmen playing the role of what is usually that of a buisness man…you can see how this complicates the issue of filtering useful feedback and terrible feedback from each other. 

 

I disagree, at least with some things you said. Certainly, being good at the game, doesn't make one good at designing game related stuff and balancing it, but not being good at it won't help one with designing and balancing it either. I mean, if you don't understand your own product, then probably changes you will make, will have different impact than you expect them to have. Also, I'd dare to say, that having first hand experience has more value than second hand, because without your own experience on issue you can't even judge if feedback isn't random whining and so on.

 

While it doesn't mean all your balancing devs have to be pro players, no. Not at all, but they should have enough experience with the game to understand all little things that impact user experience and what impact each change will have. Technicaly, it would be the best to have two kinds of devs working on balancing project before we get patched on live.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[Fueki.4753]

16 hours ago, Rotten Apple.9643 said:

I see a lot of praise for ANETs increased communication but they have still yet to even comment on the plague of issues bearing down on pvp. Its actually infuriating that they refuse to say ANYTHING

I've yet to witness that increased communication.

Their forum activity is as low as always.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Archer.4362]

9 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Todavía tengo que presenciar ese aumento de la comunicación.

Su actividad en el foro es tan baja como siempre.

It is not that communication is low, it is that there is not

[Psycoprophet.8107]

The fact the devs admitted that due to working on the expac there will not be any significant work being done regarding balance etc of the roster shows the state that the current games dev company is in. A mmo dev team should always be working on future content releases while simultaneously maintaining a proper balance cadence as far as scope and frequency, the fact anet cant shows it's current situation isnt conducive to maintaining a mmo the size if gw2, as far as providing it the most positive chance at successful future.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Nihil.9817]

bots, wintrading, people only playing pvp for rewards, people intentionally throwing, afk's, lack of build diversity, talents/utilities being outshined or too dogshit to take, people being toxic for no discernable reason, people not communicating in game or expressing what needs to be done to win a game, players being full of themselves to a degree where it is infectious to other players, keyboard turning, lack of updates, reworks.

 

guys, its time to take the bot pill.

 

 only way you win in pvp is by botting.

[Trepidation Lost.3469]

Pvp is a joke 

 

-18 for a loss with fakers in your team

 

+4 for carrying bots vs trash players.

 

matchmaking is a joke.

 

I was vs two top 5 players. Won, only got 14 pips. 
 

 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 11/11/2021 at 5:54 AM, Morwath.9817 said:

 

I disagree, at least with some things you said. Certainly, being good at the game, doesn't make one good at designing game related stuff and balancing it, but not being good at it won't help one with designing and balancing it either. I mean, if you don't understand your own product, then probably changes you will make, will have different impact than you expect them to have.

Thing is, the two aren’t corollary, and there’s many examples that show this is the case.
 

for example…I might be a very good nascar driver…But nascar drivers do not design the cars that they drive. Therefor the difference between a good nascar driver and a bad nascar driver is not enough correlation there to determine whether either is qualified to build a nascar. 
 

the same example but in reverse…an engineer/scientists who built those cars, are probably nowhere near qualified to drive them, even though they understand every detail of how their cars work. 
 

In essence there is no correlation between the two, it’s a mistake to put a aerodynamics engineer behind the wheel of a nascar in a race, and it’s a mistake to have a nascar driver build a nascar. 

 

Is having both a good thing…sure…but because there’s no correlation it doesn’t even matter if they do have both. In the analog, The only thing that matters, is that the game designers know how to design good games...and likewise, players that are good at playing games, are only good for playing games good.

 

Another example, Being a CEO of a company, does not qualify them to actually work their production line, and likewise, employee's that work the production line are not qualified to be CEO's of companies. We all like to believe that the stellar employee would make for a good CEO...but the two are not corollary, because they involve overwhelmingly, two different ways of thinking and decision making. Having both is fine...but because they aren't correlated it's not a thing, for them to be required to have both. It's a harsh conclusion about the world but it is a realistic one.

Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuck, Elon Musk...All of them are high school dropouts. They've probably never worked a real 9-5 in their life. Some CEO's probably have...it doesn't matter, because its not a proper correlation, even though its often mistaken to be one. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Morwath.9817]

9 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

stuff

 

I think your examples in this case are pretty poor and yes, I believe understanding product user is required to develop product used by said user. While engineers/scientists ain't professional drivers, they still drive cars. Thus, as I said, game developer doesn't have to be professional player, but he should have enough gamming experience with his own product. So, having more experience with product can help, but doesn't have to help with developing it.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

2 hours ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

While engineers/scientists ain't professional drivers, they still drive cars.

 

 

Being a good gamer does not qualify you to design games…designing games qualifies you for designing games… it’s really that simple and not much more complicated then that.
 

 imagine if this was a job interview right now and you wanted to apply to being a game designer and you told me your experience was :

 

“I’m really good at playing Guild Wars 2, I’m top 10 in SPVP.”

 

Do you think that in any way shape or form qualifies you to get that job? Pretty sure the interview would laugh you out of the office.
 

What they will ask you is:

“what other games have you designed?”

“what other games have you balanced.” 

“What balance/design concepts do you understand?”

Anyway man listen…you can believe whatever you want…but believing in things that are delusional don’t go anywhere…what only matters is what is real and what is really correlated to each other. Sure we see many people cross professions all the time…like boxers becoming actors (Dwayne Johnson, John Cena, Gina Carano) and their experience and fame earned from boxing helps them in transitioning to that new career…but to think being a boxer qualifies them to be a movie star is a false correlation, and it simply does not work that way…that’s why people who want to become actors don’t go to Dojos to become actors…they go to acting schools and get an agent lol

Edited November 13, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Morwath.9817]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

 

Being a good gamer does not qualify you to design games…designing games qualifies you for designing games… it’s really that simple and not much more complicated then that.
 

 imagine if this was a job interview right now and you wanted to apply to being a game designer and you told me your experience was :

 

“I’m really good at playing Guild Wars 2, I’m top 10 in SPVP.”

 

Do you think that in any way shape or form qualifies you to get that job? Pretty sure the interview would laugh you out of the office.
 

What they will ask you is:

“what other games have you designed?”

“what other games have you balanced.” 

“What balance/design concepts do you understand?”

Anyway man listen…you can believe whatever you want…but believing in things that are delusional don’t go anywhere…what only matters is what is real and what is really correlated to each other. Sure we see many people cross professions all the time…like boxers becoming actors (Dwayne Johnson, John Cena, Gina Carano) and their experience and fame earned from boxing helps them in transitioning to that new career…but to think being a boxer qualifies them to be a movie star is a false correlation, and it simply does not work that way…that’s why people who want to become actors don’t go to Dojos to become actors…they go to acting schools and get an agent lol

 

I will disagree with you yet again. Let me give you simple example of Eternal:

 

The game was developed at Dire Wolf Digital by a team that has included Magic: The Gathering Hall of Fame players Luis Scott-Vargas^[55] and Patrick Chapin as well as other Magic: The Gathering professional players including Conley Woods, Andrew Baeckstrom, Patrick Sullivan and Josh Utter-Leyton.^[56]

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

I will disagree with you yet again. Let me give you simple example of Eternal:

 

The game was developed at Dire Wolf Digital by a team that has included Magic: The Gathering Hall of Fame players Luis Scott-Vargas^[55] and Patrick Chapin as well as other Magic: The Gathering professional players including Conley Woods, Andrew Baeckstrom, Patrick Sullivan and Josh Utter-Leyton.^[56]

 

Then be my guest, walk into Anet's office and get a job as a balance dev with only "being good at the game" as your credentials.

 

Like mentioned previously, people cross professions all the time, but them being good at the game, is not what makes them successful game developers. Knowing how to code, understanding how to design games, and knowing how to run a company are.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

 

Being a good gamer does not qualify you to design games…designing games qualifies you for designing games… it’s really that simple and not much more complicated then that.
 

 imagine if this was a job interview right now and you wanted to apply to being a game designer and you told me your experience was :

 

“I’m really good at playing Guild Wars 2, I’m top 10 in SPVP.”

 

Do you think that in any way shape or form qualifies you to get that job? Pretty sure the interview would laugh you out of the office.
 

What they will ask you is:

“what other games have you designed?”

“what other games have you balanced.” 

“What balance/design concepts do you understand?”

Anyway man listen…you can believe whatever you want…but believing in things that are delusional don’t go anywhere…what only matters is what is real and what is really correlated to each other. Sure we see many people cross professions all the time…like boxers becoming actors (Dwayne Johnson, John Cena, Gina Carano) and their experience and fame earned from boxing helps them in transitioning to that new career…but to think being a boxer qualifies them to be a movie star is a false correlation, and it simply does not work that way…that’s why people who want to become actors don’t go to Dojos to become actors…they go to acting schools and get an agent lol

there is a difference in designing and balancing.
For designing you need someone who has
1 cool as kitten ideas and
2 someone that needs to design them ( program them duh )
But for balance I would take a unbiased, trustworthy top tier player over " designer " as they dont know what the kitten they are doing. If you get a designer to balance your pvp game you end up with lol 200 years meme.
I remember rework wukong where wukong players tested him and said its straight up broken  but the devs " trust us we design this kitten we know " then they had to hot fix nerf as it was broken.

[Morwath.9817]

3 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Then be my guest, walk into Anet's office and get a job as a balance dev with only "being good at the game" as your credentials.

 

Like mentioned previously, people cross professions all the time, but them being good at the game, is not what makes them successful game developers. Knowing how to code, understanding how to design games, and knowing how to run a company are.

 

🙂

 

1 minute ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

there is a difference in designing and balancing.
For designing you need someone who has
1 cool as kitten ideas and
2 someone that needs to design them ( program them duh )
But for balance I would take a unbiased, trustworthy top tier player over " designer " as they dont know what the kitten they are doing. If you get a designer to balance your pvp game you end up with lol 200 years meme.
I remember rework wukong where wukong players tested him and said its straight up broken  but the devs " trust us we design this kitten we know " then they had to hot fix nerf as it was broken.

 

Exacly. 

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

5 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

 

🙂

 

 

Exacly. 

 

Believe whatever fairy tales you want to believe...again nobody is stopping anyone from walking in and taking CMC's job btw. Let's give the balance jobs to the top players. (CMC was an ESL player btw back in the day)

 

Btw footnote, most of those top players are match manipulators. Let's just give them even higher positions of power, sounds like a great idea. Smiley Face Emoji.

Edited November 13, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Tescao.3042]

6 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

But for balance I would take a unbiased, trustworthy top tier player over " designer " as they dont know what the kitten they are doing.

Hello my friend, but can I find out how a unbiased top-level player who plays only in meta builds can balance a macro game?

[Morwath.9817]

44 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Believe whatever fairy tales you want to believe...again nobody is stopping anyone from walking in and taking CMC's job btw. Let's give the balance jobs to the top players. (CMC was an ESL player btw back in the day)

 

Btw footnote, most of those top players are match manipulators. Let's just give them even higher positions of power, sounds like a great idea. Smiley Face Emoji.

It's not matter of beliefs. I think you're misreading me since beginning. All I said was that understanding enviroment helps balancing said enviroment. After all people you take to balance, don't have to design systems. Yet, they can work together with people who already design it.

That being said. If I would have mission to build a balance team, I'd hire tournament players to work with my designers together. I was myself helping with balancing other game as top player  and I think it was beneficial for the devs they could share project with us, selected few players who would test all proposed changes on design phase to get some feedback before it was released, so it could be rebalanced before deadline for patch/expansion release. So, my opinion here may be biased due to my own experience.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Morwath.9817

[voltaicbore.8012]

30 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Believe whatever fairy tales you want to believe...again nobody is stopping anyone from walking in and taking CMC's job btw. Let's give the balance jobs to the top players.

I would like to believe that whatever HR system ANet has in place is the thing stopping that type of casual job-stealing from taking place lol.

On a more serious note, I also believe the developers managing spvp should ideally have a reasonable level of in-game proficiency and familiarity with it. While I agree with your analogy that a front-line worker and CEO have completely different skill sets, I see this as an information problem, not a proficiency problem. In other words,I suggest that at least some devs actually play spvp to a meaningful extent (1) NOT because spvp skill somehow makes them more qualified to do their development/balance work, but (2) because on-the-ground experience with the game mode from a player perspective would assist them in decision making.

I really do think dev engagement with the player perspective on this game is a serious issue. The pre-EoD streams we've been seeing are just sad. It's clear on several occasions that the devs demonstrating gameplay just haven't touched a non-developer game client in forever. It looks like they have very little idea of what it feels to play their game as we do, and I see that as a problem.

Note that direct experience isn't absolutely necessary to gain the type of information I feel ANet is currently lacking. Robust feedback systems ideally would allow an executive to figure out what the front-line employees need. I'm just not sure ANet has a particularly good one in place for spvp. Reddit and the forums are generally quite shrill, and I think the best way to filter signal vs noise is to actually play the mode for yourself on various classes and actually see what is going on.

Edited November 13, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

Hello my friend, but can I find out how a unbiased top-level player who plays only in meta builds can balance a macro game?

unbiased top level player who plays only meta builds knows why they are meta, and will make adjustments to introduce new ones, or bring the stronger specs more in line, making the game more varied and interesting.
Developer nerf random kitten as he is clueless and we have what we have now.

[Tescao.3042]

24 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

unbiased top level player who plays only meta builds knows why they are meta, and will make adjustments to introduce new ones, or bring the stronger specs more in line, making the game more varied and interesting.
Developer nerf random kitten as he is clueless and we have what we have now.

You may be right, but how do they know what adjustments need to be made if they have never played a builds that is not meta at high levels. Most likely some of them are jumping between meta builds.

I think this requires representatives of the class, players who are of a high level, but who understand the class as a whole and its specializations, and not representatives of meta builds. The wisest game to see is the multi-faceted counterplay between specs, to balance this, GW2 have another difficulty, this weapons that open up new styles, but at the same time become hostages of meta modifiers

Edited November 13, 2021 by DomHemingway.8436

[Morwath.9817]

6 minutes ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

You may be right, but how do they know what adjustments need to be made if they have never played a builds that is not meta at high levels. Most likely some of them are jumping between meta builds.

I think this requires representatives of the class, players who are of a high level, but who understand the class as a whole and its specializations, and not representatives of meta builds. The wisest game to see is the multi-faceted counterplay between specs, to balance this, GW2 have another difficulty, this weapons that open up new styles, but at the same time become hostages of meta modifiers

Do you think, how actualy meta build become meta? 🙃

[Tescao.3042]

1 minute ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Do you think, how actualy meta build become meta? 🙃

Here's the answer. 

 which starts from the core guardian (one needs to run so much, the second needs to do that kind of damage, the third needs to do this pew pew, the fourth needs to put on a shroud of this size, the fifth needs to do boon corruption of this size and other meta modifiers, etc) and all this to play with the current core guardian meta (a replacement for the past more complex version of guardian - FB, without macro game and counterplay between other supports). Willbender probably won't even be able to scratch his core version.